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 Medium of Death wrote:
Why should a Christian bakery need to supply a gay couple's wedding cake?

Should a Muslim caterer be forced to handle pork just because you want them to cater to you?

Why are you forced to take somebodies money from them if you disagree with them on a fundamental level?

It's utter nonsense. I'm sure there are plenty of homosexual friendly cake shops.

Hold on here, there's a difference between "We don't do wedding cakes" and "We won't bake you a weeding cake for [discriminating reason]".

That's not what's being discussed though.

This is a religious disagreement. Not a racial one.

Nobody is arguing for racial discrimination.

Nice try to shift the argument though.

The award will reportedly bankrupt the seven-member Klein family and force Sweet Cakes by Melissa Bakery to shut down. The Kleins’ lawyer, Anna Harmon, said that the damages awarded were not limited to the sale of business assets, but would be taken out of their personal funds.

Good. Maybe this will send a message to the rest of the donkey caves that their invisible friend doesn't give them a free pass from the law.

 Medium of Death wrote:
That's not what's being discussed though.

This is a religious disagreement. Not a racial one.

Nobody is arguing for racial discrimination.

Nice try to shift the argument though.

It's discrimination based on sexuality.

 Frazzled wrote:

It's because they hid behind personal convictions instead of a valid, legal right. Once they chose to go that route, they lost the protection of any corporate filing status.

You answer is awesome except its...wrong. They were a sole/proprietor/partnership. As such they are liable for the debts of the enterprise.
It has nothing to do with morality or being "wrong." its just basic business law.

Got Derp?

Meh. I didn't look at how they filed, nor cared to; I suppose it's just hard to imagine people dumb enough to file as sole proprietors when there are so many reasons not to. Sure, the paperwork is a bit easier but the liability (as they found out) is....yeah, friends don't let friends be sole proprietors.

The derp here is on the bakery owners and their lack of business savvy.

 Medium of Death wrote:
That's not what's being discussed though.

This is a religious disagreement. Not a racial one.

Nobody is arguing for racial discrimination.

Nice try to shift the argument though.

No, this is a couple of bigots trying to use religion to justify their bigotry. That that bigotry is sexual instead of racial is of no importance. 50 years ago theses exact same arguments were being used to justify segregation.

There is nothing in the Bible that prevents the baking of cakes to anyone, Jesus wanted everyone to have cake equally.

 agnosto wrote:

It's because they hid behind personal convictions instead of a valid, legal right. Once they chose to go that route, they lost the protection of any corporate filing status.
My message to both parties: "Don't be a-holes to each other."
No phony rights here; sexual orientation is actually a protected class in Oregon and the bakery had no legal right to refuse service under state public accommodation statute.

Oregon has a legal right to persecute. I cant contest that because the legal right to persecute exists in Oregon, thus it is legal.
It's still morally wrong though.
The bakers were trying to not participate in baking a cake to cerebrate gay marriage, something that offends their ethos. Until they knew it was a gay wedding cake they had no problems baking a cake for the lesbians. Oregon laws made no distinction sadly which is why the protection available in an increasing number of states, the same protection groups like GenCon are riling against, are necessary.

Remember it is the presense of personal convictions that meant that the planitiffs claimed “acute loss of confidence,” “doubt,” “excessive sleep,” “felt mentally raped, dirty and shameful,” “high blood pressure,” “impaired digestion,” “loss of appetite,” “migraine headaches,” “pale and sick at home after work,” “resumption of smoking habit,” “shock,” “stunned,” “surprise,” “uncertainty,” “weight gain” and “worry.”

However relgious people are not entitled to any defence against having the same sentiments enforced on them. Logically it is the same to be forced to bake a cake for an opposed ethos as to be denied one due to an opposed ethos. Could the baker feel 'mentally raped, dirty and shameful' for being forced to participate in propagating an opposed ethos? Frankly I dont think so because the planitiffs laments are an excessive wail for a cash trail, but what genuine grief they felt would be less as a point of simple denial than would be suffered for forced participation, especuially as the service could be gained from elsewhere, and multiple cakes were indeed offer to the lesbian couple, for free.

Also note that the fact they got offers of multiple cakes also meant the couple did not keep quiet about their 'ordeal', presumably this was a cause of the open hate and discrimination the bakers themselves suffered.

 Medium of Death wrote:
That's not what's being discussed though.



Nice try to shift the argument though.

Just FYI you don't get to say the above, after posting

 Medium of Death wrote:

Should a Muslim caterer be forced to handle pork just because you want them to cater to you?.

Which doesn't so much shift the argument but is in fact is nothing at all to do with the case at hand as this is an entirely spurious argument.

It's like claiming that a garage has discriminated against you if they won't fix your water boiler.

If it's not something they do anyway then it's not an issue.

PhantomViper wrote:

The award will reportedly bankrupt the seven-member Klein family and force Sweet Cakes by Melissa Bakery to shut down. The Kleins’ lawyer, Anna Harmon, said that the damages awarded were not limited to the sale of business assets, but would be taken out of their personal funds.

Good. Maybe this will send a message to the rest of the donkey caves that their invisible friend doesn't give them a free pass from the law.

I'm constantly reminded, however, that this free pass to be an donkey-cave is extended to anyone in a social vogue class or an atheist. So that's cool.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Should a Muslim caterer be forced to handle pork just because you want them to cater to you?

If that is on their menu, then yeah. Why would they take those jobs if their religion prevent them from handling pork anyway?

 cincydooley wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

The award will reportedly bankrupt the seven-member Klein family and force Sweet Cakes by Melissa Bakery to shut down. The Kleins’ lawyer, Anna Harmon, said that the damages awarded were not limited to the sale of business assets, but would be taken out of their personal funds.

Good. Maybe this will send a message to the rest of the donkey caves that their invisible friend doesn't give them a free pass from the law.

I'm constantly reminded, however, that this free pass to be an donkey-cave is extended to anyone in a social vogue class or an atheist. So that's cool.

It is? Care to site any examples where atheists or members of a "social vogue class" can just ignore the law?

I love it when inflexible people get together and battle over their inflexible belief systems! The real probelm is that sexual orientation is not a protected class in all 50 states and US Territories yet.

The baker in me say, show some fething professionalism. Sure, by the letter of the law, LGBT were not a protected class in their state; but Baker's should bake. If you can't do the job due to personal ethics, than move into a different profession that aligns with your personal ethics. Don't try to twist the professional ethics to fit your personal ethics.

Bakers who do not bake, go bankrupt. Simple really.

PhantomViper wrote:
It is? Care to site any examples where atheists or members of a "social vogue class" can just ignore the law?

He said we had a free pass to be donkey cave, not to break the law. Which is stupid. Because everyone can be a donkey-cave, and everyone will suffer the consequences though.

So, Am I the only one that read the case record in the link posted on the first page?

Two Points:
1) While the couple getting married filed the complaint, It was the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries that file the formal charges.
2) The bakery owners violated the established laws of the State, by the denial and by going on TV and Radio to "explain". These are on the linked page with the violations listed on pages 9 and 10 of same.

Ugh, looking at the "symptoms", it's impossible to side with the lesbian couple. Poor form, ladies. Those symptoms don't even make sense. Judge sounds like an idiot (or someone afraid of being sued himself for "humiliating a gay couple" after he finds their symptoms ridiculous). I'm all for gay couples being treated fairly. This isn't fairness; this is full on donkey cave. To be perfectly honest, I hope support is rallied for the bakery and the lawsuit is taken higher and thrown out. Simply on the grounds of the BS "symptoms".

Meh. I didn't look at how they filed, nor cared to; I suppose it's just hard to imagine people dumb enough to file as sole proprietors when there are so many reasons not to. Sure, the paperwork is a bit easier but the liability (as they found out) is....yeah, friends don't let friends be sole proprietors.

I forwarded the actual ruling, which I read. It wasn't long. As others have noted...don't trust Breitbart for your news unless independently verified.

The derp here is on the bakery owners and their lack of business savvy.

Yea. They are bakers though, not KKR (crap I just dated myself).

 Frazzled wrote:
As others have noted...don't trust Breitbart for your news unless independently verified.

Gamergate made me discover Breitbart. A match made in heaven. Or hell, maybe.

 Easy E wrote:
I love it when inflexible people get together and battle over their inflexible belief systems! The real probelm is that sexual orientation is not a protected class in all 50 states and US Territories yet.

The baker in me say, show some fething professionalism. Sure, by the letter of the law, LGBT were not a protected class in their state; but Baker's should bake. If you can't do the job due to personal ethics, than move into a different profession that aligns with your personal ethics. Don't try to twist the professional ethics to fit your personal ethics.

So why can't your personal ethics be ingrained in your closely held, small, private business ventures? I'll never understand that rationale.

Bakers who do not bake, go bankrupt. Simple really.

Then we should let that happen if it's going to. If a business wants to remove potential clients, let them. That's their prerogative. I'm of the belief that 2015 is very different than 1960 and that news travels far faster, and as such businesses that openly discriminate will go under due to lack of business. And we should let them. But this lawsuit, and especially their claims (I mean seriously, where are all the rape culture activists decrying the use of "rape" here in a completely absurd way), are ridiculous.

As pointed out, the couple did not make the formal charges. Hell, wouldn't it be a kick if that couple refused the charges, or gave them back to the bakery? I doubt it. But that would be the only course of happy endings here.

 Orlanth wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

It's because they hid behind personal convictions instead of a valid, legal right. Once they chose to go that route, they lost the protection of any corporate filing status.
My message to both parties: "Don't be a-holes to each other."
No phony rights here; sexual orientation is actually a protected class in Oregon and the bakery had no legal right to refuse service under state public accommodation statute.

Oregon has a legal right to persecute. I cant contest that because the legal right to persecute exists in Oregon, thus it is legal.
It's still morally wrong though.
The bakers were trying to not participate in baking a cake to cerebrate gay marriage, something that offends their ethos. Until they knew it was a gay wedding cake they had no problems baking a cake for the lesbians. Oregon laws made no distinction sadly which is why the protection available in an increasing number of states, the same protection groups like GenCon are riling against, are necessary.

Remember it is the presense of personal convictions that meant that the planitiffs claimed “acute loss of confidence,” “doubt,” “excessive sleep,” “felt mentally raped, dirty and shameful,” “high blood pressure,” “impaired digestion,” “loss of appetite,” “migraine headaches,” “pale and sick at home after work,” “resumption of smoking habit,” “shock,” “stunned,” “surprise,” “uncertainty,” “weight gain” and “worry.”

However relgious people are not entitled to any defence against having the same sentiments enforced on them. Logically it is the same to be forced to bake a cake for an opposed ethos as to be denied one due to an opposed ethos. Could the baker feel 'mentally raped, dirty and shameful' for being forced to participate in propagating an opposed ethos? Frankly I dont think so because the planitiffs laments are an excessive wail for a cash trail, but what genuine grief they felt would be less as a point of simple denial than would be suffered for forced participation, especuially as the service could be gained from elsewhere, and multiple cakes were indeed offer to the lesbian couple, for free.

Also note that the fact they got offers of multiple cakes also meant the couple did not keep quiet about their 'ordeal', presumably this was a cause of the open hate and discrimination the bakers themselves suffered.

You should also note that it all started with a complaint to the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries. The bakery owners were given ample opportunity for "reconciliation and rehabilitation" as per state statute but refused and were found in breach of state law so in addition to the civil lawsuit, they're being fined by the state.

At one point arbitration was possible:

Under state law, the complaint against the bakery now moves into a period of reconciliation. If they can’t reach an agreement, formal civil charges could be filed and the Kleins could face hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines.

but:

Last August, Labor Commissioner Brad Avakian told The Oregonian, their desire is to rehabilitate businesses like the one owned by the Christian couple.
“Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs, but that doesn’t mean that folks have the right to discriminate,” he told the newspaper. “The goal is never to shut down a business. The goal is to rehabilitate.” Aaron Klein told me there will be no reconciliation and there will be no rehabilitation. He and his wife will not back down from their Christian beliefs.
“There’s nothing wrong with what we believe,” he said. “It’s a biblical point of view. It’s my faith. It’s my religion.”

So, they were offered arbitration, refused and the civil charges ensued. Funnily enough, the source of the above quotes was Fox news.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/01/21/christian-bakery-guilty-violating-civil-rights-lesbian-couple/

@Cincy- Yes, I agree with your second point. Part of what puts people out of business is legal issues.

 Frazzled wrote:

Meh. I didn't look at how they filed, nor cared to; I suppose it's just hard to imagine people dumb enough to file as sole proprietors when there are so many reasons not to. Sure, the paperwork is a bit easier but the liability (as they found out) is....yeah, friends don't let friends be sole proprietors.

I forwarded the actual ruling, which I read. It wasn't long. As others have noted...don't trust Breitbart for your news unless independently verified.

The derp here is on the bakery owners and their lack of business savvy.

Yea. They are bakers though, not KKR (crap I just dated myself).

I scanned it but missed the filing status. Again, meh.

My sister owns a small Avon shop locally and probably moves less money through her store than these bakers did and she still consulted an attorney and an accountant before opening her business. It doesn't take a college degree (she doesn't have one) or special skills to use your noggin and ask experts before placing your family's livelihood on the line, just a modicum of common sense and forethought.

Especially in our overly litigious society, you would think that people would want as much legal protection as possible and these folks were in the food business for crying out loud. If one person were to get sick, they'd be in worse shape than they are now.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

The owners broke an Oregon law by discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation.

Don't want to go out of business? Try not breaking the law, for starters.

 jasper76 wrote:
Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

The owners broke an Oregon law by discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation.

Don't want to go out of business? Try not breaking the law, for starters.

The law violated their religious beliefs. First Amendment usually trumps. Thats also why many statess that protect against this sort of abuse.
Interesting if this will be taken up and tested at a higher level.

Symptoms of Depression, according to the Mayo Clinic (Found here):
•Feelings of sadness, emptiness or unhappiness
•Angry outbursts, irritability or frustration, even over small matters
•Loss of interest or pleasure in normal activities, such as sex
•Sleep disturbances, including insomnia or sleeping too much
•Tiredness and lack of energy, so that even small tasks take extra effort
•Changes in appetite — often reduced appetite and weight loss, but increased cravings for food and weight gain in some people
•Anxiety, agitation or restlessness — for example, excessive worrying, pacing, hand-wringing or an inability to sit still
•Slowed thinking, speaking or body movements
•Feelings of worthlessness or guilt, fixating on past failures or blaming yourself for things that are not your responsibility
•Trouble thinking, concentrating, making decisions and remembering things
•Frequent thoughts of death, suicidal thoughts, suicide attempts or suicide
•Unexplained physical problems, such as back pain or headaches

 reds8n wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
That's not what's being discussed though.



Nice try to shift the argument though.

Just FYI you don't get to say the above, after posting

 Medium of Death wrote:

Should a Muslim caterer be forced to handle pork just because you want them to cater to you?.

Which doesn't so much shift the argument but is in fact is nothing at all to do with the case at hand as this is an entirely spurious argument.

It's like claiming that a garage has discriminated against you if they won't fix your water boiler.

If it's not something they do anyway then it's not an issue.

It's a lot closer than the race comparison.

Perhaps they only order in Brides and Groom cake decorations as pairs. Perhaps they couldn't afford to have spares? (Sarcasm)

Also the fact that you can have a Muslim Butcher but not a Christian bakery shows the absurdity of this situation.

So one religious group should be allowed to circumvent some laws while another shouldn't?

http://www.sweetcakesweb.com/index.html

Welcome to Sweet Cakes! Are you looking for a wedding cake or for an occasion? Our cakes are custom made and designed to fit you. When coming to Sweet Cakes you can get a cake that will be sure to be a memorable part of your special day! We hope our website is helpful to you. We do cakes for all different kinds of occasions. All of our cakes are made from scratch using the best ingredients. All real stuff! Our cakes are always fresh and moist.

Cake is what makes the day special whatever you are celebrating, birthday, baby shower, wedding, bridal shower, anniversary, holidays, or just having a special dinner with special people.

When you have a piece of our cake, we are sure that you will want a second piece. So take a look. Give us a call and we can talk about the cake that is on your mind.

We here at Sweet Cakes strongly believe that when a man and woman come together to be joined as one, it is truly one of the most special days of their lives, we feel truely honored when we are chosen to do the cake for your special day.



melissa@sweetcakesweb.com

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16

It's quite clear from their website that they are Christian.

This is just another example of Statists taking advantage of an otherwise trusting Christian family.
.

 helgrenze wrote:
So, Am I the only one that read the case record in the link posted on the first page?

Two Points:
1) While the couple getting married filed the complaint, It was the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries that file the formal charges.
2) The bakery owners violated the established laws of the State, by the denial and by going on TV and Radio to "explain". These are on the linked page with the violations listed on pages 9 and 10 of same.

1. No complaints at that, the couple complained to the relevant authorities who made the case for pursual. Many such bodies exist to persue companies through the courts on behalf of individual citizens who might not be able to afford the case.

2. The first part was established by the court, this evidences that religious protection laws are not yet implementated in Oregon, as in 28 other states and thus rights legislation is lobsided allowing protected classes to specifically force religious people into violating their ethos or facing punitive measures.
Publicity by either party had no factor in the formal ruling, and both parties pre-publicised the dispute. The lesbian couple by revealing the denial of service and getting free cake from the community, and the bakers when they received the lawsuit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
The owners broke an Oregon law by discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation.
Don't want to go out of business? Try not breaking the law, for starters.

The law violated their religious beliefs. First Amendment usually trumps. Thats also why many states that protect against this sort of abuse.
Interesting if this will be taken up and tested at a higher level.

This.

The owners broke the law in Oregon which legally labeled 'preventation of violation of religious beliefs' as 'discrimination'.
Just because the law is written that was doesn't make it just.
Rosa Park broke the law. She sat in a white only part of a bus. What she did was illegal, but was what she did 'wrong'?

It will be interesting to find out of the bakers can appeal to a higher body that respects the First Amendment properly.

 Medium of Death wrote:
[
Also the fact that you can have a Muslim Butcher but not a Christian bakery shows the absurdity of this situation.

So one religious group should be allowed to circumvent some laws while another shouldn't?

If a "Christian bakery" means "discriminating groups of people", yeah.

A Muslim Butcher, in this example, simply doesn't sell pork - which is completely different from not selling your products to gay people.

Luke 6:37 (KJV):

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

The bakers judged. They were judged..

The bakers condemned. They were condemned.

The bakers did not forgive. They were not forgiven.

Rules as written.

 Medium of Death wrote:

 reds8n wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
That's not what's being discussed though.



Nice try to shift the argument though.

Just FYI you don't get to say the above, after posting

 Medium of Death wrote:

Should a Muslim caterer be forced to handle pork just because you want them to cater to you?.

Which doesn't so much shift the argument but is in fact is nothing at all to do with the case at hand as this is an entirely spurious argument.

It's like claiming that a garage has discriminated against you if they won't fix your water boiler.

If it's not something they do anyway then it's not an issue.

It's a lot closer than the race comparison.

Perhaps they only order in Brides and Groom cake decorations as pairs. Perhaps they couldn't afford to have spares? (Sarcasm)

Also the fact that you can have a Muslim Butcher but not a Christian bakery shows the absurdity of this situation.

So one religious group should be allowed to circumvent some laws while another shouldn't?

http://www.sweetcakesweb.com/index.html

Welcome to Sweet Cakes! Are you looking for a wedding cake or for an occasion? Our cakes are custom made and designed to fit you. When coming to Sweet Cakes you can get a cake that will be sure to be a memorable part of your special day! We hope our website is helpful to you. We do cakes for all different kinds of occasions. All of our cakes are made from scratch using the best ingredients. All real stuff! Our cakes are always fresh and moist.

Cake is what makes the day special whatever you are celebrating, birthday, baby shower, wedding, bridal shower, anniversary, holidays, or just having a special dinner with special people.

When you have a piece of our cake, we are sure that you will want a second piece. So take a look. Give us a call and we can talk about the cake that is on your mind.

We here at Sweet Cakes strongly believe that when a man and woman come together to be joined as one, it is truly one of the most special days of their lives, we feel truely honored when we are chosen to do the cake for your special day.



melissa@sweetcakesweb.com

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16

It's quite clear from their website that they are Christian.

This is just another example of Statists taking advantage of an otherwise trusting Christian family.
.

Except Islam has dietary restrictions, so it makes sense to have a muslim butcher. Christianity does not have dietary restrictions, so a christian bakery does not make sense, other than to get some sort of monetary benefit.