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2015/05/01 14:00:10
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Martel732 wrote: Adequate is actually a glowing endorsement for something from the BA codex.
GW has us boxed into a corner. We put out the AV 11, put the squishies behind it and hope it can last long enough to get something done with the heavy hitter units.
If scatter lasers were only S5, I'd feel a lot better about, well, everything.
Also, it didn't help they kicked melta right in the nuts in 7th with that vehicle table. You now need two pens to get ~50% chance to explode and by that time, it's almost HPed out anyway.
I know, I know, I've sort of resigned myself to just not being able to play proper competitive for the next few years at least.
Bring 1850 pts, 2 force org charts, killiest list possible, no other restrictions, Blood Angels don't stand a chance, but then again against eldar, I genuinely think no one else does either. Not invisible grav stars, not marine bikes, not demon spam, not wraith spam, nuthin', so in that regard Blood Angels are just as boned as anyone else. And against every army I just mentioned I'm sure I could, if not win reliably, at least do good enough for the games to be fun.
I literally stopped playing in 4th edition because I thought the Blood Angel rules were so bad, but I don't feel that way now.
I just played in a tournament this weekend that had white scars, ultramarines, khorne bloodkin, chaos demons, necrons, iron hands, orks, and orks again. I came in second and honestly had a great time.
As long as your area has a solid group of people that are willing to ignore the eldar codex, I still feel like the game is very fun and blood angels are a very playable army.
Also that vehicle table thing works for Blood Angels too! Very okay with the fact that my storm ravens and fragiosos are harder to kill, because those are two of my most reliably effective units .
Orks can beat Eldar.
Fighting crime in a future time!
2015/05/01 14:39:06
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Well, theoretically yes, they could, as it's a game of dice and chance plays a part, but statistically Eldar could put alot of hurt on the Orks before they even reached their lines and take the teeth out of their assault.
Unless you have some super-duper tactics for beating eldar with orks that your comment in a vacuum is meaningless.
D
2015/05/01 15:24:29
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Martel732 wrote: Adequate is actually a glowing endorsement for something from the BA codex.
GW has us boxed into a corner. We put out the AV 11, put the squishies behind it and hope it can last long enough to get something done with the heavy hitter units.
If scatter lasers were only S5, I'd feel a lot better about, well, everything.
Also, it didn't help they kicked melta right in the nuts in 7th with that vehicle table. You now need two pens to get ~50% chance to explode and by that time, it's almost HPed out anyway.
I know, I know, I've sort of resigned myself to just not being able to play proper competitive for the next few years at least.
Bring 1850 pts, 2 force org charts, killiest list possible, no other restrictions, Blood Angels don't stand a chance, but then again against eldar, I genuinely think no one else does either. Not invisible grav stars, not marine bikes, not demon spam, not wraith spam, nuthin', so in that regard Blood Angels are just as boned as anyone else. And against every army I just mentioned I'm sure I could, if not win reliably, at least do good enough for the games to be fun.
I literally stopped playing in 4th edition because I thought the Blood Angel rules were so bad, but I don't feel that way now.
I just played in a tournament this weekend that had white scars, ultramarines, khorne bloodkin, chaos demons, necrons, iron hands, orks, and orks again. I came in second and honestly had a great time.
As long as your area has a solid group of people that are willing to ignore the eldar codex, I still feel like the game is very fun and blood angels are a very playable army.
Also that vehicle table thing works for Blood Angels too! Very okay with the fact that my storm ravens and fragiosos are harder to kill, because those are two of my most reliably effective units .
Orks can beat Eldar.
Then Orks are far, far superior to BA. I'd be fairly confident that if I were to play Eldar, I would basically never lose to BA.
2015/05/02 02:13:56
Subject: Re:5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Take 2-3 to use as Flankers/Screening Force to quickly move into position to take on Armor or Protect a Unit. The Plasma Guns can threaten a lot of targets.
Martel732 wrote: Adequate is actually a glowing endorsement for something from the BA codex.
GW has us boxed into a corner. We put out the AV 11, put the squishies behind it and hope it can last long enough to get something done with the heavy hitter units.
If scatter lasers were only S5, I'd feel a lot better about, well, everything.
Also, it didn't help they kicked melta right in the nuts in 7th with that vehicle table. You now need two pens to get ~50% chance to explode and by that time, it's almost HPed out anyway.
I know, I know, I've sort of resigned myself to just not being able to play proper competitive for the next few years at least.
Bring 1850 pts, 2 force org charts, killiest list possible, no other restrictions, Blood Angels don't stand a chance, but then again against eldar, I genuinely think no one else does either. Not invisible grav stars, not marine bikes, not demon spam, not wraith spam, nuthin', so in that regard Blood Angels are just as boned as anyone else. And against every army I just mentioned I'm sure I could, if not win reliably, at least do good enough for the games to be fun.
I literally stopped playing in 4th edition because I thought the Blood Angel rules were so bad, but I don't feel that way now.
I just played in a tournament this weekend that had white scars, ultramarines, khorne bloodkin, chaos demons, necrons, iron hands, orks, and orks again. I came in second and honestly had a great time.
As long as your area has a solid group of people that are willing to ignore the eldar codex, I still feel like the game is very fun and blood angels are a very playable army.
Also that vehicle table thing works for Blood Angels too! Very okay with the fact that my storm ravens and fragiosos are harder to kill, because those are two of my most reliably effective units .
Orks can beat Eldar.
Then Orks are far, far superior to BA. I'd be fairly confident that if I were to play Eldar, I would basically never lose to BA.
Agreed. I really only think a flying circus army could beat eldar, and then only because jetbikes and wraithguard / knights are too tempting a choice for an eldar player to bother investing a significant amount of points into anti-air.
I actually wouldn't mind playing an eldar army with a list that was dual flesh tearers detachements with two fire raptors and four storm ravens, BUUUT since I only own one of each of those and am not going to be acquiring more anytime soon, that's a pipe dream.
2015/05/03 06:22:58
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Automatically Appended Next Post: From my own experiences, Assault Marines are best suited to the role of fast moving, unpredictable tank killers. Give them 2 melta guns and a couple of inferno pistols on the Sergeant and put the in a drop pod or just keep them with jump packs.
I'm of the same mindset, though I definitely prefer the combi melta on the sgt over 2 pistols, particularly on drop pods. The extra range is huge, as is the decreased cost.
I will jump in and "me too" this. I think combi melta + 2 melta in either drop pods or jump packs is the way to go. I am not a huge Rhino fan. Though you never know after the new CSM, Rhinos are supposed to some kind of command kit, might be changes to the base model that are cool They'd I'd have to play my BA models as vanilla marines and call them something else
2015/05/03 15:49:04
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Yeah, drop pods are good, I'm a huge fan of the triple flamer tactical squad in a drop pod with missiles. They're great at clearing out back board units, like snipers, and on the charge they can murder most tanks and all artillery.
That's still a very different role to the rhino squads. Look at it this way, if you even want to stand a chance against eldar jetbikes, you need to get them in hand to hand combat. But how do you get a unit that can move 48" or move 12" shoot 36" close enough to charge? You've gotta hammer and anvil them. If you drop a bunch of pods behind the eldar lines, and have an advancing wall of rhinos, death company, and loaded storm ravens, MAYBE you can get enough bikes into hth to turn the tide. Some of the time. (I'm being realistic here).
Believe me, the lack of mobility that over-reliance on drop pods will stick you with hurts. I just played in a tournament that had weird force org restrictions preventing me from taking rhinos or jump packs. Thanks to infiltrate and drop pods I could still get all over the table, but the lack of mid-game mobility was really hurting my ability to seize objectives, REALLY made me miss my rhinos and jumpers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/03 15:49:40
2015/05/03 20:24:42
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Automatically Appended Next Post: From my own experiences, Assault Marines are best suited to the role of fast moving, unpredictable tank killers. Give them 2 melta guns and a couple of inferno pistols on the Sergeant and put the in a drop pod or just keep them with jump packs.
I'm of the same mindset, though I definitely prefer the combi melta on the sgt over 2 pistols, particularly on drop pods. The extra range is huge, as is the decreased cost.
I will jump in and "me too" this. I think combi melta + 2 melta in either drop pods or jump packs is the way to go. I am not a huge Rhino fan. Though you never know after the new CSM, Rhinos are supposed to some kind of command kit, might be changes to the base model that are cool They'd I'd have to play my BA models as vanilla marines and call them something else
Aha! My moment to jump in with questions! I strike!
So if the rhino gets an upgrade for marines or basic marine codex (I read a rumor that things like whirlwinds and even predators might receive the ability to be fielded as a squad for instance), is there normally a FAQ to update the other Marine armies so they can also use those features, or would BA, DA, and SW be left using whatever their latest codex said? If not, then I'm guessing since the BA book was only just recently updated there'd be a bit of a long wait to see any vehicle changes for them?
Edit: Man I can edit this all day and the quotes still don't look right. Weird.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/05/03 20:28:27
ALL HAIL THE ORKISSIAH, TRINARY SPEAKING GOD OF ORK TECHNOLOGY. (Unlike wimpy old Binary, Orks have commands for Yes, No AND "Maybe")
Agent_Tremolo wrote: In my personal scale for rating unlikely prophecies it scored two Millenium Bugs and one Mayan Apocalypse.
2015/05/03 21:00:11
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
That would make all the sense in the world, but it has absolutely never happened. This is why I really miss the 3rd ed days of add-on codexes. Back when the blood angel dex simply stated that you used the normal marine dex for all but the BA-only units, when they changed the marine dex, the changes carried right over to the blood angels! GW decided this made too much sense and nixed the practice during 4th ed.
I think at one point there were three different sets of rules for storm shields depending on which chapter you were using.
Soooooo dumb.
I sincerely doubt marines are going to get much of an upgrade with their new dex, though. Like, they could use it for balance, but GW's never cared about that, so I just sort of feel like they're going to get their own decurion, a few formations, bikes as troops might go byebye, and some special characters will get some updating (particularly ones that reference things like 'scoring' units).
If they do get some crazy command upgrade for their rhino, 100% expect Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Wolves not to get anything at all like that, kind of like how we very inexplicably get no storm eagles, land speeder storms, or masters of the forge.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/03 21:05:20
2015/05/03 23:55:40
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
gummyofallbears wrote: 2 meltas, either 2 inferno pistols or a combi-melta on the sarge in a pod, amazing tank hunters.
No, average tank hunters. Melta got nerfed pretty bad in 7th. At least, that's my view. Melta went from being 50/50 chance to explode to needing two melta pens to have a 56% chance. That means 44% of the time you were better off just HPing the damn thing out from a safe range.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/03 23:58:35
2015/05/04 17:46:31
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
gummyofallbears wrote: 2 meltas, either 2 inferno pistols or a combi-melta on the sarge in a pod, amazing tank hunters.
No, average tank hunters. Melta got nerfed pretty bad in 7th. At least, that's my view. Melta went from being 50/50 chance to explode to needing two melta pens to have a 56% chance. That means 44% of the time you were better off just HPing the damn thing out from a safe range.
Actually 2 melta pens gives about a 67% chance to blow up a vehicle, which is pretty good.
Did melta get a bit worse? Yeah. Sure. But the rise of the Imperial Knight (which is about to see a resurgence) meant that hull any weapon that had a 33% chance to cause another d3 extra hullpoints was probably good enough for any list.
Plus there will be those 1/3 times that you will only have to hit some vehicle at full hullpoints once to have them essplode.
5,000
:cficon: 1,500
2015/05/04 17:50:55
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
gummyofallbears wrote: 2 meltas, either 2 inferno pistols or a combi-melta on the sarge in a pod, amazing tank hunters.
No, average tank hunters. Melta got nerfed pretty bad in 7th. At least, that's my view. Melta went from being 50/50 chance to explode to needing two melta pens to have a 56% chance. That means 44% of the time you were better off just HPing the damn thing out from a safe range.
Actually 2 melta pens gives about a 67% chance to blow up a vehicle, which is pretty good.
Did melta get a bit worse? Yeah. Sure. But the rise of the Imperial Knight (which is about to see a resurgence) meant that hull any weapon that had a 33% chance to cause another d3 extra hullpoints was probably good enough for any list.
Plus there will be those 1/3 times that you will only have to hit some vehicle at full hullpoints once to have them essplode.
My issue with Melta over Plasma is you have to get withing 6" for optimal effect and Plasma you only need to pull off 12".
gummyofallbears wrote: 2 meltas, either 2 inferno pistols or a combi-melta on the sarge in a pod, amazing tank hunters.
No, average tank hunters. Melta got nerfed pretty bad in 7th. At least, that's my view. Melta went from being 50/50 chance to explode to needing two melta pens to have a 56% chance. That means 44% of the time you were better off just HPing the damn thing out from a safe range.
Actually 2 melta pens gives about a 67% chance to blow up a vehicle, which is pretty good.
Did melta get a bit worse? Yeah. Sure. But the rise of the Imperial Knight (which is about to see a resurgence) meant that hull any weapon that had a 33% chance to cause another d3 extra hullpoints was probably good enough for any list.
Plus there will be those 1/3 times that you will only have to hit some vehicle at full hullpoints once to have them essplode.
It's not 67%. You are summing, not using statistics. (2/3)*(2/3)= 4/9, which means 5/9 chance of exploding, which is 56%, exactly as I said. That's a REALLY bad payoff for getting three (BS4 needs three to generate two hits) melta weapons within melta range. And that's assuming auto pens, so we'll call it an even 50% at that point.
2015/05/04 18:05:30
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
gummyofallbears wrote: 2 meltas, either 2 inferno pistols or a combi-melta on the sarge in a pod, amazing tank hunters.
No, average tank hunters. Melta got nerfed pretty bad in 7th. At least, that's my view. Melta went from being 50/50 chance to explode to needing two melta pens to have a 56% chance. That means 44% of the time you were better off just HPing the damn thing out from a safe range.
Actually 2 melta pens gives about a 67% chance to blow up a vehicle, which is pretty good.
Did melta get a bit worse? Yeah. Sure. But the rise of the Imperial Knight (which is about to see a resurgence) meant that hull any weapon that had a 33% chance to cause another d3 extra hullpoints was probably good enough for any list.
Plus there will be those 1/3 times that you will only have to hit some vehicle at full hullpoints once to have them essplode.
My issue with Melta over Plasma is you have to get withing 6" for optimal effect and Plasma you only need to pull off 12".
Partly why I think drop pods help negate some of that range issue. I like plasma too personally but only on units that will be travelling. I like to pod to help pinpoint where I can put the melta fire barring a bad scatter roll. That being the case it's at least somewhat difficult for me to justify building my ASM units to just go rhino. I'd almost rather them just use the jump packs if I'm going the plasma route, despite the somewhat safer shooting from the rhinos firing points. I end up feeling like once the rhino gets shot out (and it will) then they'll be a halfsy shooting, halfsy melee unit foot slogging. Unless I drop them off somewhere near alot of enemy units, and in that case, I need to be dropping half my force along with em so they don't just die immediately.
ALL HAIL THE ORKISSIAH, TRINARY SPEAKING GOD OF ORK TECHNOLOGY. (Unlike wimpy old Binary, Orks have commands for Yes, No AND "Maybe")
Agent_Tremolo wrote: In my personal scale for rating unlikely prophecies it scored two Millenium Bugs and one Mayan Apocalypse.
2015/05/04 18:30:05
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
gummyofallbears wrote: 2 meltas, either 2 inferno pistols or a combi-melta on the sarge in a pod, amazing tank hunters.
No, average tank hunters. Melta got nerfed pretty bad in 7th. At least, that's my view. Melta went from being 50/50 chance to explode to needing two melta pens to have a 56% chance. That means 44% of the time you were better off just HPing the damn thing out from a safe range.
Actually 2 melta pens gives about a 67% chance to blow up a vehicle, which is pretty good.
Did melta get a bit worse? Yeah. Sure. But the rise of the Imperial Knight (which is about to see a resurgence) meant that hull any weapon that had a 33% chance to cause another d3 extra hullpoints was probably good enough for any list.
Plus there will be those 1/3 times that you will only have to hit some vehicle at full hullpoints once to have them essplode.
My issue with Melta over Plasma is you have to get withing 6" for optimal effect and Plasma you only need to pull off 12".
Partly why I think drop pods help negate some of that range issue. I like plasma too personally but only on units that will be travelling. I like to pod to help pinpoint where I can put the melta fire barring a bad scatter roll. That being the case it's at least somewhat difficult for me to justify building my ASM units to just go rhino. I'd almost rather them just use the jump packs if I'm going the plasma route, despite the somewhat safer shooting from the rhinos firing points. I end up feeling like once the rhino gets shot out (and it will) then they'll be a halfsy shooting, halfsy melee unit foot slogging. Unless I drop them off somewhere near alot of enemy units, and in that case, I need to be dropping half my force along with em so they don't just die immediately.
I would go with the Drop Pod [Wolves/BA-ASM] or Raptors myself [MoS/Icon of Excess].
Anpu, I just showed how BA drop ASM are not as good as everyone claims. They seem worthwhile against knights, but certainly not vs most tanks and they are terrible against MCs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
th3maninblak wrote: Except you literally did the exact same thing, just now.
Please elucidate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/04 18:34:25
2015/05/04 18:36:41
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Martel732 wrote: Anpu, I just showed how BA drop ASM are not as good as everyone claims. They seem worthwhile against knights, but certainly not vs most tanks and they are terrible against MCs.
I was just saying they are better in a Drop Pod than in a Rhino.
Martel732 wrote: Anpu, I just showed how BA drop ASM are not as good as everyone claims. They seem worthwhile against knights, but certainly not vs most tanks and they are terrible against MCs.
I was just saying they are better in a Drop Pod than in a Rhino.
Are they? I'm not really convinced of this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/04 18:47:17
2015/05/04 18:51:27
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Martel732 wrote: Anpu, I just showed how BA drop ASM are not as good as everyone claims. They seem worthwhile against knights, but certainly not vs most tanks and they are terrible against MCs.
I was just saying they are better in a Drop Pod than in a Rhino.
Are they? I'm not really convinced of this.
Well with the free Drop Pod I can get Two Plasma-Guns and a Combi-Plasma within 12" of of my target on turn one for 125 points. A Rhino is not going to do that.
Martel732 wrote: Anpu, I just showed how BA drop ASM are not as good as everyone claims. They seem worthwhile against knights, but certainly not vs most tanks and they are terrible against MCs.
I was just saying they are better in a Drop Pod than in a Rhino.
Are they? I'm not really convinced of this.
Well with the free Drop Pod I can get Two Plasma-Guns and a Combi-Plasma within 12" of of my target on turn one for 125 points. A Rhino is not going to do that.
The drop pod is not guaranteed to do that. It will almost certainly get you within 12" of SOMETHING, but not necessarily what you want. Your opponent gets to play, too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/04 19:03:38
2015/05/04 19:10:32
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Martel732 wrote: Anpu, I just showed how BA drop ASM are not as good as everyone claims. They seem worthwhile against knights, but certainly not vs most tanks and they are terrible against MCs.
I was just saying they are better in a Drop Pod than in a Rhino.
Are they? I'm not really convinced of this.
Well with the free Drop Pod I can get Two Plasma-Guns and a Combi-Plasma within 12" of of my target on turn one for 125 points. A Rhino is not going to do that.
The drop pod is not guaranteed to do that. It will almost certainly get you within 12" of SOMETHING, but not necessarily what you want. Your opponent gets to play, too.
The trick I have found it put the Drop Pod nest to your target and one of three things will happen.
1] You land on target.
2] You scatter into you target and move the minimum distance to where you are no longer on your target.
3] You scatter away from your target at max 12", 6" Deployment move, now you are withing 12".
Players can stop that trick. That's the problem. They can create zones of invalid landing sites by spacing models and using board edges/impassable terrain.
2015/05/04 19:19:56
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Martel732 wrote: Players can stop that trick. That's the problem. They can create zones of invalid landing sites by spacing models and using board edges/impassable terrain.
Yes, unless they are not playing horde armies or smaller point games.
Martel732 wrote: Players can stop that trick. That's the problem. They can create zones of invalid landing sites by spacing models and using board edges/impassable terrain.
Yes, unless they are not playing horde armies or smaller point games.
I can do it with BA. I've been doing it against SW since 5th. Horde armies are not necessary. The only real problem is that sometimes you can be rather distant from objectives. Being fast helps, but putting drop lists in a huge hole on their first turn is worth it.
2015/05/04 20:01:27
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Martel732 wrote: Players can stop that trick. That's the problem. They can create zones of invalid landing sites by spacing models and using board edges/impassable terrain.
Yes, unless they are not playing horde armies or smaller point games.
I can do it with BA. I've been doing it against SW since 5th. Horde armies are not necessary. The only real problem is that sometimes you can be rather distant from objectives. Being fast helps, but putting drop lists in a huge hole on their first turn is worth it.
On the first turn objectives are not that important unless you are playing Maelstrom of war.
Martel732 wrote: Players can stop that trick. That's the problem. They can create zones of invalid landing sites by spacing models and using board edges/impassable terrain.
Yes, unless they are not playing horde armies or smaller point games.
I can do it with BA. I've been doing it against SW since 5th. Horde armies are not necessary. The only real problem is that sometimes you can be rather distant from objectives. Being fast helps, but putting drop lists in a huge hole on their first turn is worth it.
I feel like you describe things in very black and white terms most of the time man. I see exactly what you mean, and I don't discount what you're saying either, but in terms of the couple buddies I play with.... man, they just aren't that competitive or frankly, that good. Most of the time pretty standard tactics you wouldn't use in a more competitive meta (I imagine you probably play against people who are probably pretty good), are still very valid in the games I play.
I figure if any of my friends ever start playing more competitively, I'll respond in kind and probably make heavy use of some of the great advice you give, but where I am, I just find it kind of unlikely. Again, not discounting your thoughts at all, but in some games it may just not be as stark of a picture.
ALL HAIL THE ORKISSIAH, TRINARY SPEAKING GOD OF ORK TECHNOLOGY. (Unlike wimpy old Binary, Orks have commands for Yes, No AND "Maybe")
Agent_Tremolo wrote: In my personal scale for rating unlikely prophecies it scored two Millenium Bugs and one Mayan Apocalypse.
2015/05/04 20:12:06
Subject: 5 man blood angel assault marines in a rhino loadout
Martel732 wrote: Players can stop that trick. That's the problem. They can create zones of invalid landing sites by spacing models and using board edges/impassable terrain.
Yes, unless they are not playing horde armies or smaller point games.
I can do it with BA. I've been doing it against SW since 5th. Horde armies are not necessary. The only real problem is that sometimes you can be rather distant from objectives. Being fast helps, but putting drop lists in a huge hole on their first turn is worth it.
I feel like you describe things in very black and white terms most of the time man. I see exactly what you mean, and I don't discount what you're saying either, but in terms of the couple buddies I play with.... man, they just aren't that competitive or frankly, that good. Most of the time pretty standard tactics you wouldn't use in a more competitive meta (I imagine you probably play against people who are probably pretty good), are still very valid in the games I play.
I figure if any of my friends ever start playing more competitively, I'll respond in kind and probably make heavy use of some of the great advice you give, but where I am, I just find it kind of unlikely. Again, not discounting your thoughts at all, but in some games it may just not be as stark of a picture.
I used to be WAAC in the past, so I know how to be that kind of player.
5,000
They'd I'd have to play my 
