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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




So, given that there's (another) new thread on a single way of fixing Terminators, I thought I'd repost a semi-distilled version of the fixes that were mooted about in the 15-page threadnaught that was up a couple of weeks ago. I'll also throw in some more solidified versions of suggested changes that I particularly liked... so it is a tad biased in that respect.

First off, this "document" of sorts will cover both Loyalist and Traitor TDA-equipped models, specific to the traditional Terminator entries (and extending to codex-specific variants when noted). Grey Knight Terminators are not the subject of this document, and are generally considered to be a separate entity for balance purposes due to their significant variance in equipment and rules.

Secondly, any "broken balance" between the traditional Loyalist and Traitor Terminator units and their Xeno contemporaries (such as MANz) or even their in-codex counterparts (Centurions, Obliterators/Mutilators) is effectively being ignored in this document. I do not have much interest in trying to, for example, make MANz better because Terminators are becoming better, in part because I am very unfamiliar with the Ork codex, but also because that's more work than I care to take on... for the time being, at least.

Let's begin:

1. Terminator Basic Weaponry

Staring with basic Terminator weapons, I recommend the following changes to Stormbolters, Combi-bolters, and Loyalist pricing (Chaos Terminator pricing is actually quite competitive for the package provided).

Stormbolters
-24" Assault 3 S4 AP5 Cognis

Combi-Bolters
-24" Assault 3 S4 AP5 Twin-Linked, Cognis

Terminators have a bit of a counter-assault built in to their basic weaponry, since the Cognis rule permits BS2 snap-firing. Note that some previous proposals recommended full-BS Overwatch... which after some thought I realized would be pretty amazing. It mostly comes down to how units like Howling Banshees and Incubi would interact with units that are armed primarily with Stormbolters (some Henchman Warband configurations, as well as all GK infantry and most Terminators). Namely, full-BS Overwatch of 3 S4 shots per model would decimate T3 assault infantry (Banshees and Incubi, as well as DCA), even considering the 4+/3+ saves said infantry typically boast.

Hence, Cognis instead. While the Cognis rule is specific to the Skitarii/upcoming Cult Mechanicus, I find it to be a cleaner way to express BS2 snapfiring than naming a new rule to describe the effect. Combi-Bolters are both TL and Cognis, but it must be remembered that Chaos Terminators exchange their Combi-Bolter for generally more useful Combi-Melta/-Plasma, making the decision something of a "do I want murderous Overwatch against things like Incubi, or do I want maximum dakka".

For those who are curious as to why not use the Salvo rules... there's two reasons:

1) Models with TDA are Relentless; Salvo might as well be Assault or Heavy for all the relevance it has when carried by Relentless/SnP models.
2) These Stormbolter (and Combi-Bolter!) changes also echo to the non-Relentless models that can take these weapons, such as SM/Sisters/CSM squad leaders, as well as PAGKs.

Loyalist Terminator Pricing
-160 points base cost for 5-man squad (with Sergeant), +30 ppm for extra men; PW+SB, TDA for basic equipment

This is cited under Basic Weaponry due to the fact that Loyalist Terminators are going to change in innate equipment. They will now be as noted above, at 30 ppm with a PW and SB. Chaos Terminators are 31 ppm, and so it would IMO be appropriate to also make them 30 ppm to match the similar equipment loadout of their revamped Loyalist brethren. Loyalist upgrade options of the PW->PF/CF variety will be discussed in another section.

2. Terminator Upgrades

Loyalist PW Upgrade Chain
-Power Fist for +5 ppm, -OR- Chainfist for +10 ppm; applies to the Terminator Sergeant

What it says on the tin; compared to the current, a "new" Shootynator would be 35 ppm for a PF, 3-shot/Cognis Stormbolter, and 2+/5++ save with Deep Strike to boot. Slightly shootier, particularly in Overwatch, but also overall cheaper than now. Mass S4 shooting just isn't that scary, and hasn't been for a long time- hence why it's actually a good deal to go 5 points cheaper than now for a slight increase in shooting. Yes, this does mean that for 40 ppm you can get S8/AP2 Armorbane melee on a model with 3 BS4/BS2 Overwatch S4 shots, all with a 2+/5++ and DS. No, it's not actually as scary as it looks; you can't assault after DS, and mass S4 shooting isn't scary unless you roll footdar or something equally bizarre and unheard of.

Loyalist Weapon Upgrades
-Terminator Weapons are expanded to include the following:
-Plasma Cannons, +15 points
-Multi-Meltas, +10 points

Terminators may also take two "Heavy" weapons per 5 men in the squad. This helps Terminator firepower, particularly in terms of bringing multiple weapons to the field.

It's still pricey to do so- an Assault Cannon costs a whopping 20 points after all- but it's more viable, in some ways, to bring more without using up lots of bodies.

Traitor Weapon Upgrades
-Reaper Autocannons are now +15 points
-Plasma Blasters are added, an 18" Assault 2 S7 AP2 Gets Hot weapon, for +15 points
-Traitor Terminators may upgrade 1 member per 3 to have a heavy weapon
-Traitor Terminators with a Mark of Slaanesh may take a Blastmaster for +30 points

Traitor Terminator "special" weapons aren't as varied and arguably aren't as good, they do have access to combi-weapon for everybody as well, upping squad firepower noticeably on the turn they fire their Combis. Additionally, a potential option is to give them access to an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher as a combi option, permitting a 12" range Frag/Krak grenade that is reusable rather than One Use Only.

Traitor Unit Upgrades
-Terminator Champions may take a Grenade Harness (8" Assault 2 S3 AP- Small Blast, One Use Only) for +10 points
-A model and the unit they belong to which fires the Grenade Harness counts as having Assault Grenades for that assault phase

Chaos Termies get much more varied weapon upgrades, since you can also hand out LCs in addition to mauls/swords/axes and power/chain fists, and all in the same squad at that. Since most of those strike at Initiative, it'd be nice for Chaos Termies to have an option to permit them that choice. Note that you don't have to hit/wound anything to get the assault grenade benefit, just fire the weapon.

3. Terminator Rules

Move Through Cover
-TDA confers the Move Through Cover USR in addition to all other benefits.

This gives footslogging Terminators a tad more mobility, and also nicely represents the "ain't nobody got time for walls" aspect of Terminator armor. Also adds some usefulness to Chaos Termies, who might have better luck getting into combat now (particularly with the new Grenade Harness giving one-turn assault grenades).

Veteran Cohesion
As long as the squad leader is alive, the squad has the Split Fire USR

Veteran Cohesion is a rule that would be attached to the squad leader- Terminator Sergeants/Terminator Champions, or whatever other term is used to describe the model that "leads" the squad for the relevant armies. By conferring Split Fire as long as said leader is alive, there's two things that happen:

1) The squad can shoot 2 different things. It can be useful, for example, to have a small Chaos Termie squad with a heavy weapon that doesn't jive super well with the combis/bolters of the rest of the unit, so you just Split Fire and have the heavy shoot at something else.
2) The squad can pick between two different things to assault. This is particularly important for the traditional Loyalist Shootynator, with his schizophrenic SB+PF loadout.


So, thoughts/comments/criticism? Oh, and please keep frothing rage to a minimum, as the excess amount of spittle can cause keyboard malfunctions .
   
Made in us
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What about just allowing every terminator to take whatever weapon they feel like?

5 termies with Assault cannons GO!

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 Ghazkuul wrote:
What about just allowing every terminator to take whatever weapon they feel like?

5 termies with Assault cannons GO!


Seems fine to me after Codex: Scatterbike. Even with the assault cannons, they'd still be inferior to scatbikes.
   
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It mostly comes down to how units like Howling Banshees and Incubi would interact with units that are armed primarily with Stormbolters (some Henchman Warband configurations, as well as all GK infantry and most Terminators). Namely, full-BS Overwatch of 3 S4 shots per model would decimate T3 assault infantry (Banshees and Incubi, as well as DCA),

Oh, well banshees in particular appear to be immune to overwatch now. Then, of course, being "decimated" seems to be a pretty innocuous price for making it into combat. I expect a large amount of full bs overwatch would be a bit more devastating than that, though.




Salvo might as well be Assault or Heavy for all the relevance it has when carried by Relentless/SnP models.
2) These Stormbolter (and Combi-Bolter!) changes also echo to the non-Relentless models that can take these weapons, such as SM/Sisters/CSM squad leaders


Since salvo, assault, and heavy are all the same to relentless models, maybe these weapons should be designed for non-relentless models. Similarly, since they are often character upgrades that come on official models but are undesirable, maybe they should be designed as options for non-relentless characters, rather than basic weapons for relentless squads. I.e. Situations where having one and a half bs2 bolters in overwatch would not be worth upgrade points.

I imagine something that is a useful upgrade for a single character might be fairly nice to have on three models as stock.

I think that since you don't know enough about mega nobs to comment on them, and don't feel like thinking much about grey knights, that the best way to invent better rules for terminators would be to continue observing mega nobs until you do know enough.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
 Ghazkuul wrote:
What about just allowing every terminator to take whatever weapon they feel like?

5 termies with Assault cannons GO!


Seems fine to me after Codex: Scatterbike. Even with the assault cannons, they'd still be inferior to scatbikes.


i vote this but also 5 cml.
   
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 Ghazkuul wrote:
What about just allowing every terminator to take whatever weapon they feel like?

5 termies with Assault cannons GO!


If this is intended to be serious, then get out, because that route just leads down the road to Scatterbikes. Which are still better anyways, due to EJB movement, 50% more range, and costing about half as much as a current Terminator with assault cannon.

If you're passive-agressively whinging about how this would make Terminators better than MANz, then also, get out. This thread is not about MANz, and if you cannot be constructive then you should leave.

Door's over there.->

pelicaniforce wrote:
Oh, well banshees in particular appear to be immune to overwatch now. Then, of course, being "decimated" seems to be a pretty innocuous price for making it into combat. I expect a large amount of full bs overwatch would be a bit more devastating than that, though.


I didn't know that Banshees were immune to Overwatch fire, though I did hear that they got a +3" bonus to their Run/Charge moves, which is nice. At least Banshees saw a buff (finally).

In any case, a lot of the really fancy assault units that can take AP3/AP2 weapons en masse for low cost tend to be T3. DCAs are 5++, while Incubi are 3+, and Banshees are 4+. DCAs can buddy up with Crusaders to get a 3++... but they're still just T3.

As an example, full-BS Overwatch with 3-shot SBs, from, say, a 10-man Termie squad with two ACs would be:
Spoiler:
3x8=24 shots @ BS4, plus 8 shots @ BS1;
24 @ BS4 is 16 hits, vs T3 is ~10.68 wounds
8 shots @ BS1 is ~1.34 hits, vs T3 is ~1.11 wounds

versus:
5++ save: ~7.12 unsaved wounds from SBs, ~0.74 from ACs, ~7.86 unsaved wounds total
4+ save: ~5.34 unsaved wounds from SBs, ~1.11 from ACs, ~6.45 unsaved wounds total
3+ save: ~3.56 unsaved wounds from SBs, ~0.34 from ACs, ~3.9 unsaved wounds total

From the above results, even with a 3+ save of some kind, you'll lose around 4 T3 models in Overwatch. It's about 6.5 if your save is 4+, and about eight (!) if you've only got a 5+... and it'll have to be an invuln too, otherwise the AP5 of Stormbolters will cut right through it and remove ~12 models before they get the chance to strike.

Wyches trying to tarpit stuff? Yeah no, they get wiped out nearly to a man (girl?) just in Overwatch, and the Terminators will pretty handily mop up the at most 3 models remaining.

So yeah, full-BS Overwatch is really nasty and overly harsh to even units like Incubi (who are often only field in a small group of 4-5), and Incubi in particular are intended to counter 2+ armor infantry due to their +1S/AP2-at-initiative combat weapons.

For the record, the results for BS2 Overwatch on Stormbolters are thusly:
Spoiler:
24 shots @ BS2 is 8 hits, ~5.34 wounds; AC results are the same ~1.11 wounds

5++: ~4.3 total unsaved wounds
4+: ~3.78 total unsaved wounds
3+: ~2.15 total unsaved wounds


Shifting down to a BS2 Overwatch cuts expected casualties of T3 infantry down by a hair under half. Obviously TL'ing can and will affect this quite dramatically, but I find that Chaos Termies having better Overwatch, and then generally sacrificing it to gain better overall versatility (via combis) is an acceptable tradeoff.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Since salvo, assault, and heavy are all the same to relentless models, maybe these weapons should be designed for non-relentless models. Similarly, since they are often character upgrades that come on official models but are undesirable, maybe they should be designed as options for non-relentless characters, rather than basic weapons for relentless squads. I.e. Situations where having one and a half bs2 bolters in overwatch would not be worth upgrade points.


That depends; Stormbolters are currently 5 points, and it's entirely likely that even with an extra shot and Cognis they still wouldn't be worth 5 points. In that case, make them cheaper- ~2-3 points for an upgrade would be, IMO, acceptable. Cognis Stubbers for the Skitarii, for example, are 5 points- while they lack some AP (being only AP6), they also have 50% more range, making them more useful on the active turn. When firing Overwatch, Stormbolters are a tad more useful, due to AP5... but are also otherwise limited by being 24" range instead of 36", and being limited to use as an infantry weapon.

It's also the case that Stormbolters being Assault is actually, IMO, the best weapon profile for it. Especially for non-Relentless infantry. As an example, GKs are rather built around a fairly capable, mid-range/24" shooting capability. Changing Stormbolters to something that's not Assault (or cutting down the range of weapon) would negatively impact the entire GK army, in addition to all the other users of the Stormbolter.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I imagine something that is a useful upgrade for a single character might be fairly nice to have on three models as stock.


While true, I also believe that something that's a capable basic weapon for an elite super-heavy infantry model (like Terminators) would also make a capable upgrade weapon for a squad leader. Perhaps not for a high-end HQ character... but Tau seem to be the only army in the game that gets a great variety of excellent firearms for their HQ characters (unfortunately, IMO; they really shouldn't be the only army that can make badass shooty HQs characters).

pelicaniforce wrote:
I think that since you don't know enough about mega nobs to comment on them,


MANz are mechanically different enough that I do not find them to be especially comparable to Terminators. As an example, MANz are literally twice as durable against small arms fire, up to S7/AP3. Using Plasmavets as an example shooter, they'll kill ~2.22 Terminators per turn, versus ~1.67 MANz.

In terms of point loss, that's ~89 points worth of Terminators, and ~67 points worth of Terminators- a roughly 25% difference. So even against most Plasma weapons (and, in fact, Grav as well), MANz are still tougher than Terminators.

If you'll notice, all of the above proposals are centered around the offensive capability and the overall cost of the Terminators. Assuming a traditional PF+SB Termie is fired upon with the above costing (35 ppm for PF+SB+TDA), you'll still lose ~78 points instead of 89. So it's only a 14% increase in survivability-per-point, if you go from Termies to MANz, but it's still the case that, point-for-point, MANz are tougher.

If you keep the Termies as PW+SB, and no upgrades, then it works out to be approximately equal points lost- ~67 worth of MANz, and ~67 worth of Termies... only in practice it'll generally be that the Termies will suffer ~50%+ more losses, due to be 1W/5+, rather than 2Ws. And keep in mind, that's not considering smalls arms that are S7/AP3 or worse, in which case the MANz are more durable, and there is no extenuating conditions in which the Termies can even hope to equal them.

pelicaniforce wrote:
and don't feel like thinking much about grey knights


That would be because GKTs are in a pretty good place, as Terminators go. They're pretty much the only Termies to come with grenades of any kind (for whatever reason...), they're all ML1/Brotherhood of Psykers, and all have Force Weapons. Chaos Termies mostly need a little bit of work in that their special/heavy options are incredibly limited (and overpriced in the case of the Reaper AC), while Loyalist Termies generally lack offensive output. Chaos Termies make up with Combis... but Loyalists can't do anything like that to get the same effective firepower.

pelicaniforce wrote:
that the best way to invent better rules for terminators would be to continue observing mega nobs until you do know enough.


I'm not sure how you could come to this conclusion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/02 02:11:09


 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

Such anger whiskey, I actually was opposed to giving Terminators an upgrade at all pretty much.....and then....Eldar Craftworlds codex comes out............yeah.

Terminators do need an upgrade, I like the idea of opening them up to whatever weapons they cost, and giving each weapon for a termi squad a 5pt reduction in price (at least for weapons 15pts and more) that way they can bring lots of dakka wherever they wish to deepstrike. be kind of fun to see 5 terminators with CML DS behind an Artillery park and fire 10 rokkitz into it :-P

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 Ghazkuul wrote:
be kind of fun to see 5 terminators with CML DS behind an Artillery park and fire 10 rokkitz into it :-P

For even more lolz, Dark Angels Deathwing with their Vengeful Strike would get to fire 10 TWINLINKED rokkitz into it. Oorah!

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We are ALREADY going down the path of the scatbike. They are legal.
   
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Veterans allready can take pretty much any weapon, and Terminators are all Veterans, so why not?

Dark Angels ~ 7350pts (about 5800 painted);
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ohhh and just to bug whiskey......MEGA NOBZ!

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 Ghazkuul wrote:
ohhh and just to bug whiskey......MEGA NOBZ!


exalted!
   
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Whiskey144 wrote:

Loyalist Terminator Pricing
-160 points base cost for 5-man squad (with Sergeant), +30 ppm for extra men; PW+SB, TDA for basic equipment

This is cited under Basic Weaponry due to the fact that Loyalist Terminators are going to change in innate equipment. They will now be as noted above, at 30 ppm with a PW and SB. Chaos Terminators are 31 ppm, and so it would IMO be appropriate to also make them 30 ppm to match the similar equipment loadout of their revamped Loyalist brethren. Loyalist upgrade options of the PW->PF/CF variety will be discussed in another section.


Chaos terminators do not have ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics. Expensive assault troops that can be swept are MUCH less valuable than those that cannot be swept.

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 Exergy wrote:
Whiskey144 wrote:

Loyalist Terminator Pricing
-160 points base cost for 5-man squad (with Sergeant), +30 ppm for extra men; PW+SB, TDA for basic equipment

This is cited under Basic Weaponry due to the fact that Loyalist Terminators are going to change in innate equipment. They will now be as noted above, at 30 ppm with a PW and SB. Chaos Terminators are 31 ppm, and so it would IMO be appropriate to also make them 30 ppm to match the similar equipment loadout of their revamped Loyalist brethren. Loyalist upgrade options of the PW->PF/CF variety will be discussed in another section.


Chaos terminators do not have ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics. Expensive assault troops that can be swept are MUCH less valuable than those that cannot be swept.


That's okay; they both just get shot.
   
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Whiskey you gotta be realistic - we are down the path to scatter bikes. That is going to be the norm now.

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Many would rather not have CW Eldar ruin games between SM and others. So buffing one thing in only SM armies because ScatBikers would probably do more harm than good.

(Termies do need a buff - only arguing how strong it should be)
   
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 Ghazkuul wrote:
ohhh and just to bug whiskey......MEGA NOBZ!


You want to bring up MANz you utter tool? Okay, let's talk throw in a blurb about MANz:

MANz should lose SnP. They don't need it, and it quite frankly impairs them and makes some of their wargear options less utility-oriented than said options should be (Kombi-Skorchas in particular). They don't need Relentless either, because they have no access to weapons with the Rapid Fire, Heavy, Salvo, or Ordnance types.

See if you can find a way to complain about that.

 Exergy wrote:
Whiskey144 wrote:

Loyalist Terminator Pricing
-160 points base cost for 5-man squad (with Sergeant), +30 ppm for extra men; PW+SB, TDA for basic equipment

This is cited under Basic Weaponry due to the fact that Loyalist Terminators are going to change in innate equipment. They will now be as noted above, at 30 ppm with a PW and SB. Chaos Terminators are 31 ppm, and so it would IMO be appropriate to also make them 30 ppm to match the similar equipment loadout of their revamped Loyalist brethren. Loyalist upgrade options of the PW->PF/CF variety will be discussed in another section.


Chaos terminators do not have ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics. Expensive assault troops that can be swept are MUCH less valuable than those that cannot be swept.


A good point that I hadn't considered. More importantly, what should be done to fix that?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Whiskey you gotta be realistic - we are down the path to scatter bikes. That is going to be the norm now.


Scatterbikes need to be set on fire, and the person who thought it would be a good idea needs to be set on fire as well. Being realistic is assuming that extreme outliers (like Scatterbikes) should be beaten to death so that they aren't an extreme outlier anymore. Because honestly, I don't think that Scatterbikes are going to be the norm anymore.

Right now, I would say that only a Decurion list can actually stand up to the new Eldar. I used to hold that the 30K-era Taghmata could do it too, but Taghmata relies heavily on being able to spam lots of stuff that's just too damn hard or even impossible to kill with massed S6 shooting. Evidently some GW shitface saw that and said "nope", because now we have Scytheguard with D-strength flamers (to gak all over multi-wound Taghmata infantry) and Wraithknights with Destroyer shooting to gak all over the AV14 wall that Taghmata could bring.

Decurion's still got the issues of AV being useless against Wraithguard/knights, but has the benefit of being even tougher than a Taghmata force. And that's literally the only reason that Decurion can stand up to new-Eldar, because of how damn tough it is.

A massively overperforming outlier should not be regarded as the "new standard" by which all balance metrics are measured. It should instead be regarded as exactly what it is: a huge fething mistake made by some higher-than-a-kite, hammered moron.

Bharring wrote:
(Termies do need a buff - only arguing how strong it should be)


On that note Bharring, what is your opinion of the proposal set forth in the OP?
   
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Decurion is another example of the new norm. It is the only explanation for the jump in power levels. Have you seen the new knights? You got Knights with skyfire and 2 super ranged weapons still getting stomp attacks...the new direction of this game is extremely powerful stuff - terms are going to need to be extremely powerful to compete. However, terms have basically never been very competitive so it wouldn't surprise me if they got some really weak changes or no changes at all.

In order to be in line with decurion and new eldar they are going to need something like 2++ standard with assault 4 rending storm bolters if they are to remain at 40ish points.

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Bharring wrote:
Many would rather not have CW Eldar ruin games between SM and others. So buffing one thing in only SM armies because ScatBikers would probably do more harm than good.

(Termies do need a buff - only arguing how strong it should be)


GW already took a dump on the "many" you refer to. SM need something to compete with scatbikes. That's why it's called a competition.

"A massively overperforming outlier should not be regarded as the "new standard""

But it always is in competitive events. Montana, Elway, Brady, Marino, and Manning set the bar.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/08 17:44:30


 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
Decurion is another example of the new norm. It is the only explanation for the jump in power levels. Have you seen the new knights? You got Knights with skyfire and 2 super ranged weapons still getting stomp attacks...the new direction of this game is extremely powerful stuff - terms are going to need to be extremely powerful to compete. However, terms have basically never been very competitive so it wouldn't surprise me if they got some really weak changes or no changes at all.

In order to be in line with decurion and new eldar they are going to need something like 2++ standard with assault 4 rending storm bolters if they are to remain at 40ish points.


Insofar as Knight armaments... it's a TL Autocannon with Skyfire. It's not scary, and it's not going to make a difference even if you take a bigass force of Knights that all have the AA weapon. "Real" AA is a lot better than that. It's also the case that the ranged armaments of the Knights are also extremely expensive when considering the platform... particularly in reference to the new D-spamming Eldar. The Gatling is S6+Rending, which is cute considering it's also AP3. Yeah yeah, you can glance armor to death and Rend 2+ infantry to death. Good luck with that, considering how slow going it'll be.

With the new Knights and the new guns that they get, it's honestly not something that worries me. They're still expensive, very vulnerable to anti-vehicle weapons, very vulnerable to Crons in general (even before Decurion!), and limited in the amount of damage that they can actually do in shooting. A double-tapping battle cannon is not impressive, and while the S6/AP3 Rending gun is handing (mostly due to S6+AP3+RoF), it's not a really big deal. The Thermal Lance isn't even that horribly scary. If you can mitigate damage against a Vindicator's shooting, then you can pretty much do the same against a Knight.

WRT to overperforming outliers being made the standard... Lictorshame could have been considered an overperforming outlier versus the 6th-ed Serpent Spam. It's not the standard. The #2 LVO list was something like a bigass blob of bolter scouts supporting 3-4 GravCents, Lysander, and Mephiston, along with a TFC, some LC Devs, and a BA Libby with the WT relic.

Is that the new standard? SoT Bolterscout blobs with BA allies? Pretty sure that that's only shown up at LVO so far.

I would argue that Scatterbikes are so far out, particularly by a mathematical measure, that they should not be considered the standard. I do not think that trying to go for a "when everybody is OP, nobody will be OP" approach will work very well, at least not for long.

TBQH, I'm about fed up with trying to fix things in 40K, because the ruleset has become so bloated with all the extra crap they're trying to include at 28mm that it's become an absolute morass. I look at the ruleset for 40K, and then I poke around at, say, Infinity or DzC, or even something as old as BFG or even something like Space Hulk of all things, and all I can think is "where did they go wrong".

And then I look at the original Apocalypse, and the discontinuation of BFG and Epic, and I realize exactly where it went wrong.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





United States

I think more heavy weapons on relentless models is certainly the future.

Really though, I play against terminators a lot, when I'm taking wounds with ork boyz it's a matter of just picking up models, terminators are an expensive model with a risky dice roll. Throw 20 dice at terminators you pick up your saves trying to not roll five one's. I just remove twenty ork boyz. They need a new rule, you could do anything.. I'd suggest any terminator failing any save on a 1 or a 2 gets to pick up the dice and roll, and on a 5+ they shrug off the unsaved wound. Can't use it on rerolls and can't be used against wounds that don't allow a save or cause instant death.

EDIT While we are wishlisting for MANz on the siderail car can I suggest all MANz be allowed a TL Deffgun for 10 points? Also, Nobz units should be allowed a Rokkit Pack for five, and TL Big Shootas for five.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/08 18:22:45


I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works. 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






Why are combi-bolters better than Storm bolters, when combi-bolters are just primitive storm bolters?

Same Strength, same shots, same range, but Combi-bolters also get TL?

Ya lost me right there buddy. Sorry.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 docdoom77 wrote:
Why are combi-bolters better than Storm bolters, when combi-bolters are just primitive storm bolters?

Same Strength, same shots, same range, but Combi-bolters also get TL?

Ya lost me right there buddy. Sorry.


Quite frankly the combi-bolter being "better" is immaterial, because a Chaos Termie is generally upgraded with a combi-weapon, reducing him to a One-Use plasma/melta weapon and a bolter. In contrast, Loyalists get generally wider variety of special weapons (and more of them, particularly at smaller squad sizes).

The other issue is that it's a cleaner, simpler solution to give them comparable RoF, and then throw TL on Combi-Bolters. If you're so butthurt about it though, then why not just suggest a different idea? Seriously, what is wrong with you people that you say "oh noes, combi-bolter is better than stormbolter, Ima moonwalk outta this thread after saying useless gak", instead of, oh, say, "hey, I don't think that's a good way to balance it, here's a different idea".

If you have nothing constructive to say, then get out. If something as idiotic and quite frankly irrelevant in the current state of the game as "Combi-Bolters are better than Stormbolters", when both are still gak, is the only reason you do not offer constructive criticism to the rest of the proposal, then quite frankly I can only weep at the state of the playerbase.
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






Because you are taking a baseline piece of fluff, i.e.: "Stormbolters are more advanced version of combi-bolters" and producing rules that are obviously contrary to that fluff.

Here's a very simple solution: Make the combi-bolter assault 2 TL as a trade off to the Storm Bolter's assault 3 w/o TL.

Also, if anyone is displaying "butt-hurt," it's you with your rant. If you can't stand criticism, don't open your rules up to the public.

I like reading people's proposed rules, but if there very first part of a very long post has rules that clearly run counter to the established background (and the rules for the last 20 years), then people aren't nearly as likely to waste their time with the rest of it.

So instead of getting reactionary, consider the fact that you made a sub-optimal decision regarding the relationship between combi-bolters and storm bolters and fix it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/11 19:01:32


   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Whiskey144, I dont know what your problem is and i don't care, but you need to chill out.

I hope they replace storm and combi bolters for free tl plasma pistols, hand flamers, melta pistols etc... That should make termi so much better!
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 docdoom77 wrote:
Because you are taking a baseline piece of fluff, i.e.: "Stormbolters are more advanced version of combi-bolters" and producing rules that are obviously contrary to that fluff.

Here's a very simple solution: Make the combi-bolter assault 2 TL as a trade off to the Storm Bolter's assault 3 w/o TL.

Also, if anyone is displaying "butt-hurt," it's you with your rant. If you can't stand criticism, don't open your rules up to the public.

I like reading people's proposed rules, but if there very first part of a very long post has rules that clearly run counter to the established background (and the rules for the last 20 years), then people aren't nearly as likely to waste their time with the rest of it.

So instead of getting reactionary, consider the fact that you made a sub-optimal decision regarding the relationship between combi-bolters and storm bolters and fix it.


My problem isn't the criticism, it's that you didn't spend a moment to propose an alternative solution. You could have easily rolled your recommendation of combi-bolters being assault 2 TL into your initial post criticizing the decision.

So if you can't use a few fething braincells that you at least think you've got, then you aren't going to be able to provide useful feedback.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Rhinox Rider





Well I don't know, if anyone proposes an alternative solution, it seems like a good opportunity to lambast that solution and implicitly assert the primacy of the rules in the OP. Like I don't think it's very appealing to people to submit themselves to that kind of treatment.

There are two reasons that isn't too important of a fear.

For the first, suggestions are likely to be someone blurting out salvo, which is dumb.

For the second, the extensively defended portion of the OP about bs2 overwatch was a suggestion you saw in another thread and embraced, which indicates you would maybe bother talking about others' solutions instead of just berating them or defending the things you're attached to.

I'm still pretty put off by the remarks about not needing to know about another unit to write good rules. It's not like knowing more things about more units would hurt any understanding of the rulers. Probably it would help, even.

Possessed get around with move through cover, and it doesn't seem to help them as much as they need. I think using it as a rule for TDA is fine, but it's a less extreme version of giving ratlings and gretchin gun crews Hatred and calling it a buff. I think it doesn't really get the unit's abilities where they need to be, and they have a fair amount of rules as it is.


PAGK and their other weapons are a mess as it is, there is no reason that assaulta form bolters should be imagined to be keeping them afloat and therefore are valuable. On the other hand, it seems bad for non-power armored models to be able to fire them as easily as they can combat shotguns. I have second thoughts I that sometimes, however.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

Make them two wounds or drop them by about 10 points.

Either way is problem solved IMO

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Whiskey144 wrote:
 docdoom77 wrote:
Because you are taking a baseline piece of fluff, i.e.: "Stormbolters are more advanced version of combi-bolters" and producing rules that are obviously contrary to that fluff.

Here's a very simple solution: Make the combi-bolter assault 2 TL as a trade off to the Storm Bolter's assault 3 w/o TL.

Also, if anyone is displaying "butt-hurt," it's you with your rant. If you can't stand criticism, don't open your rules up to the public.

I like reading people's proposed rules, but if there very first part of a very long post has rules that clearly run counter to the established background (and the rules for the last 20 years), then people aren't nearly as likely to waste their time with the rest of it.

So instead of getting reactionary, consider the fact that you made a sub-optimal decision regarding the relationship between combi-bolters and storm bolters and fix it.


My problem isn't the criticism, it's that you didn't spend a moment to propose an alternative solution. You could have easily rolled your recommendation of combi-bolters being assault 2 TL into your initial post criticizing the decision.

So if you can't use a few fething braincells that you at least think you've got, then you aren't going to be able to provide useful feedback.


Oh my...and Valkyrie Thought I was condescending. Listen to this whiskey guy, " So if you cant use a few fething brain cells that you think you got..."

Can I mark him for being rude?

Anyways, the best way to make them as over powered as scat bikes is to also typo the rules so that any and all can take heavy and special weapons. and also somehow typo the cost to be 1/10 the cost.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




pelicaniforce wrote:
Well I don't know, if anyone proposes an alternative solution, it seems like a good opportunity to lambast that solution and implicitly assert the primacy of the rules in the OP. Like I don't think it's very appealing to people to submit themselves to that kind of treatment.


If I see an idea that I consider to be bad, then honestly I'm going to say so. Rarely will I be so... abrasive... but when people just say stupid things like "I don't like x" without providing alternatives it grates very heavily on me.

pelicaniforce wrote:
There are two reasons that isn't too important of a fear.

For the first, suggestions are likely to be someone blurting out salvo, which is dumb.


I'm glad we agree.

pelicaniforce wrote:
For the second, the extensively defended portion of the OP about bs2 overwatch was a suggestion you saw in another thread and embraced, which indicates you would maybe bother talking about others' solutions instead of just berating them or defending the things you're attached to.


Actually, the initial proposal that I saw was full-BS Overwatch. I opted to drop it down to Cognis (IE, BS2 Overwatch) because I actually mathed out a bit of full-BS overwatch with Stormbolters, and... it was very messy for units like Banshees and Incubi to try and charge such units. I didn't run numbers for Genestealers, but I can only imagine that it would be a massive kick to the nuts for Tyranid players to deal with that.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I'm still pretty put off by the remarks about not needing to know about another unit to write good rules. It's not like knowing more things about more units would hurt any understanding of the rulers. Probably it would help, even.


MANz fulfill a very different role to traditional "shootynators", which are the primary point of balance I'm trying to address. Hammernators, for example, mostly just suffer from being slow- the lethality/durability of a Hammernator is not in question, and at one time was even quite legendary. Not so much anymore, but when considered in reference to several similar units (MANz, in fact), Hammernators are quite a good deal. Clawnators have their problems, and need some work, but beyond a slight price drop and some kind of way for them to charge through cover and still strike at initiative, I don't think they need much work, honestly.

Shootynators, OTOH, are in a horrible place, and MANz don't really compare to them very well. Sure, they both have PF-equivalents, and an Assault-type primary weapon, and T4/2+ armor. The problem, as I see it, is that Shootynators are more about shooting things. Just as an example, MANz can't take gun upgrades beyond Kombi-weapons (the best of which, the Kombi-Skorcha, is very limited by the MANz SnP), whilst Shootynators have several multi-use firearm upgrades. In the current overall state of the game, these upgrades are very lackluster, but they're what's there.

There are some people who go on about Shootynators being "Tactical" so it's okay that they suck ass, since they can punch things pretty good and they have a "good" gun. The problem with that angle, is that Stormbolters are gak, and the target priority that combining a Stormbolter and a Powerfist creates is schizophrenic to the point of idiocy. Quite frankly, MANz almost never take the Kombi upgrades- between Orkish BS2 and the general cost of the weapons makes them lackluster, particularly since MANz want to spend their time punching things.

For what its worth, what I do know about MANz is enough to say that SnP is the worst possible thing that they could have, and honestly should not be a rule that is attached to Ork Mega Armor. I don't think that there's really any reason to benefit from it, and MANz in particular would, I'm sure, absolutely love being able to run and fire Overwatch (Kombi-Skorchas just got about 1000% better, for example).

pelicaniforce wrote:
Possessed get around with move through cover, and it doesn't seem to help them as much as they need. I think using it as a rule for TDA is fine, but it's a less extreme version of giving ratlings and gretchin gun crews Hatred and calling it a buff. I think it doesn't really get the unit's abilities where they need to be, and they have a fair amount of rules as it is.


A fair point- and an example of the sort of feedback I'm looking for.

pelicaniforce wrote:
PAGK and their other weapons are a mess as it is, there is no reason that assaulta form bolters should be imagined to be keeping them afloat and therefore are valuable. On the other hand, it seems bad for non-power armored models to be able to fire them as easily as they can combat shotguns. I have second thoughts I that sometimes, however.


/shrugs

I honestly don't have much issue with Terminators and non-Relentless infantry firing Stormbolters at the same effectiveness. IMO the draw of Terminators is the durability of super-heavy infantry (unfortunately a non-existent benefit in the current state of the game), and the heavy weapons access that they have- the HF, Assault Cannon, and CML. Alas, only the CML is particularly attractive, and even it is limited by the very low numbers that you can put on the board. PAGK special weapons have more to do with the general problems inherent in the mechanics of Salvo weapons- the only Salvo weapon in the game that is actually "good", I think, is the Splinter Cannon.

Being very honest, I think the main problem with a lot of Imperial weapons is the ubiquity that they've achieved throughout multiple armies, and across multiple types of units. As an example, Shardcarbines and Avenger Shuriken Catapults are both weapons exclusive to the more elite, "veteran" infantry units of the Dark Eldar and Eldar, respectively. The only way to field those weapons is to field DE Trueborn, DE Scourges, or Eldar Dire Avengers. In contrast, in order to put Stormbolters onto the table, you can field:

-any Imperial ground vehicle
-all the myriad flavors of Terminators
-PAGKs
-Sisters of Battle, as a special weapon choice
-Sisters of Battle, various flavors of Spess Mehreen character models (whether squad leader or Warlord)
-Inquisition Henchmen Squads

In terms of just how many units that is... it's a lot. In terms of variety, you've got mooks/grunts (Henchmen, PAGKs), special weapon carriers (Sisters), shooty character upgrades (SoB/SM), elite infantry basic weapons (Terminators), vehicle pintle mounts (tanks, APCs, self-propelled artillery/AA). It's a very broad range of weapon users, and most of them don't pick up Stormbolters.

Improving the weapon so that it's viable as an elite infantry unit's basic weapon, would, IMO, make it a viable choice as a low cost (2-5 point) character upgrade, vehicle pintle mount, and potentially even a viable special weapon. TBH I think that maybe the Sisters just need to get a new bolter variant just for them to replace Stormbolters, because it'll be hard to actually give the Stormbolter a role beyond "sort of a long-range flamer", when you could just take an actual flamer. That's just my opinion though.
   
 
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