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So, the new Eldar dropped and of course it is a top-tier dex With Necrons, we can see everything shifting in a new power direction.

My question is, where are Dark Eldar now in the competitive scene? Now, don't get me wrong, the new Eldar aren't much more efficient at killing us than the old Eldar. The old ones did that exceedingly well and that hasnt changed. However, the wraith knight becoming a GC is a punch to gut, as that was something we were actually good at. I believe that Dark Eldar can be something more than "rent a raider" or "Suck-U-Bus webway portal service" for their craftworld brethren. However, this is definitely at a handicap. Between the Wraithknight, abundance of 2+ save in Tau, and terminator save equivalents across the board in Crons, and the ability for each of these armies to kill multiple skimmers a turn, we have lost the arms war.

Trying to "build to table" armies when building a DE list is simply a bad idea now. However, I think we can do fast MSU well, I think to win we more or less need to be OS, meaning we probably need to ditch our codex specific detachment,

Null deployment is strong, MSU is good against "Shooting deathstars", and with the haemonculus covens stuff, we have some really hardy units (Like corpsethief) that need attention protecting our objective securers.



Thoughts? Can we still compete?

Codex Eldar: Dark Eldar, a Codex Eldar Supplement, is severely lacking in a lot of departments. Poison was their stick, and now Eldar care even less about it. But, the Coven stuff is ridiculously good. A Dark Artisan that charges a Wraithknight is probably going to kill it, and so would a big blob of Grotesques. Heck, I play Necrons, and my Dark Eldar friend beat me a few days ago (Granted, I built my list very simply, assuming he wouldn't bring Coven units, and there was a pivotal combat in which my dice gave me the finger), so Dark Eldar can do well, but ONLY with coven stuff, and maybe some Haywire scourges thrown in. But in a competitive scene, you're only going to see Eldar, and maybe a sprinkle of Dark Eldar only for the WWP.

I don't think you're that likely to even see a webway.
270 points for 2 webways is pretty damn expensive.
I'd rather just go with the 3 falcons, and get the no scatter for free.

-Matt

I think that DE can still compete. Not to beat a dead horse, but given a competent commander, it shouldn't be too hard. Granted, there's some stiff competition, but we've got some great tools of our own.

Personally, I think Null Deployment is our bread and butter, but that's just me. If you want to go mono-DE, I think it's the way to go.

That being said, I personally think it's better to look at all the Eldar armies as one big army. You CAN go mono-DE, but I think you'll have an easier time of it if you add some Covens or some Harlequins to the mix (not to mention CWE, but you don't seem too keen on that).

Just my thoughts.

I agree. I'm primarily a dark eldar player. I like the dark eldar fluff. But I've been playing Eldar more and more since the DE codex came out. It's just not really competitive on it's own. I started out just allying some eldar in, and it slowly transitioned to playing eldar-only forces. The most useful way to use DE right now is for their assault transports, as that's basically the only thing Eldar are lacking, which really makes no sense. The most advanced civilization in the galaxy, who can create things out of thin air, using only their mind, can't make a proper assault vehicle. Go figure.

IF you were going to use DE, it would basically be some sort of MSU list employing a TON of paper vehicles and obsec. And if you get unlucky and roll a Purge mission, you're SoL.

Lol that is how I started.

I used to play only Dark Eldar. Then I slowly transitioned to having this massive CWE collection.

I feel so dirty.......

Yea I really want to run Mono Dark Eldar toob but the Autarch on bike with banshee mask making reavers immune to overwatch and an allied Seer Council formation is just too good to pass up now. Hopefully Dark Eldar get an HQ supplement down the line with Lords of War and some better formations(apart from covens). GW really neutered DE characters and HQ choice, when they were build defining before. The codex just doesnt have any power units really either. Almost every other codex has at least one thing that is really good/almost broken.

2x 30~pt Windrider jetbikes with scatter lasers are more effective than a 65 pts venom -_-.

Grotesques are...well, they're pretty grotesque. As far as a power unit, they aren't the be-all, end-all, but they are mighty damn fine for their price.

Play DE cause it's hard, cause no one thinks you can win and cause no one else wants to play them. Then feel the joy none of them will ever feel when you beat em using a sub par army by their standards. Haha

DE isn't weak by any means, we just don't have power units that are an easy button. That's all, and I don't mind that, now I have toiled with the idea to add harlies but I'm still fenced on that one, and as for our craftworld bros....I know if I added them, which is tempting as hell, well it would be a downward spiral to playing just CWE like them rest haha.

I do remember listening to a few DE players discuss how to work their codex before the BIG update in 5th edition. Now THAT was a power disparity. (though, ironically, DE still had some stupid tricks up their sleeves, though all due to outdated and poorly worded rules, not actual balancing. Sounds a bit like the current RAI vs RAW, but that's a different thread.)

Not knowing much about the current DE, or tournament scene, I can't really comment. But there are some strengths I do notice, which shine especially in the mobile, objective games of 7th. DE are fast, still very much so, and have a lot of assault vehicles and some pretty strong weapons. Honestly they seem more hit by the sheer power of Necrons and Eldar then a flaw in their own codex (again, from little experience with the very current codex). I hope, and quickly, that GW gets at least the major factions up and in line with the Eldar and Necrons (or nerf them retroactively, though that would be more awkward and perhaps more of a problem.)

Not sure which is better, but when/if DE get brought up to Eldar speed, I think this won't be a problem. But for now, well, codex disparity never went away in the first place, soooo....ew. At least you have options with Allies now, unlike in 5th...

DE is a decent codex. We've got the tools to deal with many things. However, every time I run against some kind of deathstar on a local tournament I know it's going to be an uphill battle.

One thing I think is important to note is that many powerful builds rely upon allies, sometimes from several different sources. CSM really benefit from CD buddies, and I don't remember the last time I fought a DA or SM army, it's always "Imperial" (SM, Inq, Imperial Knights, etc., etc. all in one army). So, if they can create mix-and-match armies with cherry picking stuff, why can't we? Get those Harlequins to shred stuff in CC or ally in Craftworld Eldar to plug holes in the army. Farseer for psychic support, Scatterbikes for Str 6 spam and a WK to get powerful LoW. Get ungodly amounts of Poison, DLs or Haywire and Razorwing Jetfighters and you have a strong TAC army.

Pure DE are average, but can work when commanded well. Covens are likely a bit stronger. But if you want to be genuinely competitive, don't be afraid of sprinkling allies *cough*CWE*cough* to take your army up a notch. Monkeigh ally all the time, after all. Fight fire with fire. Or Poison?

 Lord Commissar wrote:

My question is, where are Dark Eldar now in the competitive scene?



Thoughts? Can we still compete?

Eldar didn't really change where Dark eldar ARE on the competitive scene.

The popular thing t odo is to look at how killy a unit is, look at how killy YOUR unit isn't, and voila! Panic reins.

I won't get too into here because forums basically suck for serious arguments. But I would ask you to consider that attacking leadership is as good for the goose as it is for the gander. Eldar are susceptible to it, as are most armies like the Tau, which you mentioned also.

I think Dark eldar are in the middle of the pack. PLenty good enough to compete with nearly all codex's, really, but the potential to lose to one sided versions of certain codex's. For example, Dark Eldar, even when they take Jets, may get a little outgunned in the skies. On the ground, the Dark eldar can wreck face in a REALLY seriously spectacular way. So they do fine and you shouldnt be worried to take them for a spin at the tournaments. As all comers go, you could do SO much worse. try playing a PURE Militarum Tempestus army. now THERES an army that doesnt have an easy game ever, win or lose! If you want an exciting ride EVERY game, play them. =)

 SarisKhan wrote:
DE is a decent codex. We've got the tools to deal with many things. However, every time I run against some kind of deathstar on a local tournament I know it's going to be an uphill battle.

One thing I think is important to note is that many powerful builds rely upon allies, sometimes from several different sources. CSM really benefit from CD buddies, and I don't remember the last time I fought a DA or SM army, it's always "Imperial" (SM, Inq, Imperial Knights, etc., etc. all in one army). So, if they can create mix-and-match armies with cherry picking stuff, why can't we? Get those Harlequins to shred stuff in CC or ally in Craftworld Eldar to plug holes in the army. Farseer for psychic support, Scatterbikes for Str 6 spam and a WK to get powerful LoW. Get ungodly amounts of Poison, DLs or Haywire and Razorwing Jetfighters and you have a strong TAC army.

Pure DE are average, but can work when commanded well. Covens are likely a bit stronger. But if you want to be genuinely competitive, don't be afraid of sprinkling allies *cough*CWE*cough* to take your army up a notch. Monkeigh ally all the time, after all. Fight fire with fire. Or Poison?

Yeah, for my Freakshow armies, I'm a big fan of allies. My thought is that if Eldar are anything, it's racist. Sure, we hate one another, but we hate all the lesser races even more. My brother and I against my cousin, my cousin and I against a grim, dark universe and all that.

 SarisKhan wrote:
DE is a decent codex.

I disagree. The amount of units that don't fit their fluff or do something useful on the battlefield is astounding. The only useful things are Coven units. That's why I'm upset (I don't even play Dark Eldar), because CWE got even more fluffy rules and cool stuff, and Dark Eldar got shafted. If I was a DE player, I'd have quit the game at this point.

 flamingwalnut wrote:


Not knowing much about the current DE, or tournament scene, I can't really comment. But there are some strengths I do notice, which shine especially in the mobile, objective games of 7th. DE are fast, still very much so, and have a lot of assault vehicles and some pretty strong weapons. Honestly they seem more hit by the sheer power of Necrons and Eldar then a flaw in their own codex (again, from little experience with the very current codex). I hope, and quickly, that GW gets at least the major factions up and in line with the Eldar and Necrons (or nerf them retroactively, though that would be more awkward and perhaps more of a problem.)

Not sure which is better, but when/if DE get brought up to Eldar speed, I think this won't be a problem.

That is litterally the problem. DE are slower and less destructive then CWE with much much less survivablity. DE are supposed to be lighter, faster, weaker, but hit harder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Codex Eldar: Dark Eldar, a Codex Eldar Supplement, is severely lacking in a lot of departments. Poison was their stick, and now Eldar care even less about it. But, the Coven stuff is ridiculously good. A Dark Artisan that charges a Wraithknight is probably going to kill it, and so would a big blob of Grotesques. Heck, I play Necrons, and my Dark Eldar friend beat me a few days ago (Granted, I built my list very simply, assuming he wouldn't bring Coven units, and there was a pivotal combat in which my dice gave me the finger), so Dark Eldar can do well, but ONLY with coven stuff, and maybe some Haywire scourges thrown in. But in a competitive scene, you're only going to see Eldar, and maybe a sprinkle of Dark Eldar only for the WWP.

yeah the best things in DE are the coven units now, sort of a tougher slower eldar. I started modeling some grotesques with wraithscythes a while ago.(wraithguard) maybe I will go back to that project

Warriors, Reavers, Raiders, Venoms, Scourges, and Beastmasters are all still good. Granted, Covens don't have a bad unit in the bunch, but they didn't get all the love.

If Dark Eldar kept its old 5ed wargear and the new version of WWP it would have plenty of answers to most armies. Crucible of malediction would basically annihilate most top deathstars. Those eldar scatbikes would be out maneuvered by 5ed night shielded venoms and raiders.

In a competitive (generally two-source format), I can't imagine taking more than around 40% Dark Eldar in a successful list. I currently utilize some of their units, as I love the fluff and models, but the codex is too specialized and increasingly inefficient.

-Venoms and Warriors are solid, but poison is only so good.

-Scourges are solid anti-tank, but aren't versatile (my two units of Haywire Scourges hate playing Nids etc.).

-Reavers are an underrated unit, but die fast to any ignore cover. I tend to think teaming them up with a bike Autarch w Banshee Mask is essential for them to do anything.

-WWP delivery is great when paired with Eldar units. Not so much within the DE Codex itself.


Some of the other units are situationally good. I could see using a Beastpack or two. The Ravager and flyers are decent, but again, so much worse than many of the Eldar options. Grotesques and Taloi are cool, but they are a big point investment now that D-weapons are roving around en masse.

I have to concur with some of the above--Eldar allies are essential to make DE work.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Warriors, Reavers, Raiders, Venoms, Scourges, and Beastmasters are all still good. Granted, Covens don't have a bad unit in the bunch, but they didn't get all the love.

Warriors are out performed by dire avengers now.
Venoms are a gun platform is now outclassed by the cheaper vypers and jet bikes.
That leaves us with raiders, scourge and reavers.
What are beast masters good at? Being only 10 points when they die?

If you were playing unbound with only eldar and dark eldar, (ie ignoring force org issues), what dark eldar units would you take?

I think an ally is a must, but I also think Harlies or covens can foot the bill.

Players who want to win play Eldar.

Players who like DE play Dark Eldar.

Players who like DE and want to win (every now and then) play Dark Eldar + Eldar. In that order.

At least that's my reasoning. I constantly struggle to fit as much DE into my list as possible considering the necessity to take an Eldar Allies Power Boost Detachment™ so that I perform decently at local tournaments. I usually end up in the middle of the ranking so fine by me.