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 Talys wrote:
Popped into my local store and grabbed my Kataphran destroyers today (yay) and found out they were told by their GW rep not to replenish Codex Space Marines. A good sign, fir sure!!

Yeah, They pulled the Strikforce bundle on the webstore yesterday too, first it was listed no longer available, now the link I posted earlier is a 404.
Making room for new stuff?
Let's hope so!

@WindsOfFury -- Oooo.

It feels close! I'm not sure I've been this excited about a codex/model release for quite a long time. And if the rumor of a 3 week release is true, that would be great: it means at least 3 new models, probably closer to 5, maybe more!

June will be a good new toy month, lol. I will never catch up with the painting, hahaha.

WindsOfFury wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Popped into my local store and grabbed my Kataphran destroyers today (yay) and found out they were told by their GW rep not to replenish Codex Space Marines. A good sign, fir sure!!

Yeah, They pulled the Strikforce bundle on the webstore yesterday too, first it was listed no longer available, now the link I posted earlier is a 404.
Making room for new stuff?
Let's hope so!

You mean this strikeforce? http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Adeptus-Astartes-Strikeforce

 easysauce wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 Leth wrote:
It will be interesting to see what happens to marines, chapter tactics, and their decurion style formations. Hopefully they make tacs worth taking.....

Unfortunately I think the Codex Astartes fluff is going to bite marine players in the butt. Nearly every Power Armor formation in the game right now is simply too expensive to run, because most of them require multiple ten man squads. The new formations from the Khorne vs. Ultras are INSANE, but so expensive that you shouldn't expect to field them outside of Apocalpyse games.

who doesnt have multiple 10 man squads? tac marines are damn useful.

We might have them from a modeling standpoint. For usefulness? They make excellent Sternguard or LotD or Command Squads or Devastators...
They're useful for anything BUT being Tactical Marines.

I'm soooooo excited. I got some store credit so yay........

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're useful for anything BUT being Tactical Marines.

I think the last time a Tac Marine was useful in 40k (as in, actually a desirable unit, not FOC filler) was back in very early 3rd Edition.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're useful for anything BUT being Tactical Marines.

I think the last time a Tac Marine was useful in 40k (as in, actually a desirable unit, not FOC filler) was back in very early 3rd Edition.

It's all in the arms race. Everything got bigger, beefier, and tougher. Suddenly, the glorified submachinegun doesn't feel so useful when you're shooting a tank that's going to drive over you, a giant robot that's going to squish you, a jetfighter that you have no chance of shooting down, or the super-duper-magical invisible dudes that roll fifty hundredteen dice, or the hyper advanced species that just gets back up when you kill it.

The other problem with Tacs is that you have 1 heavy weapon and 2 special weapons, which is so stupid, because you end up with 1 long range shooter and 2 medium range shooters, and 7 guys lined up to die in their place. It's not as bad now that we can combat squad them out though. But even then, 1 long range shooter doesn't need 4 expensive babysitters to eat pot shots.

General Hobbs wrote:


You mean this strikeforce? http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Adeptus-Astartes-Strikeforce

Well, look at that.
Did some search on the GW web. Still avalible in US, Australia and NZ. Guess you guys don't get a Space Marine update...

But it's pulled from all GW webstores in Europe.

I clicked that link and thought HOLY HELL $110 DISCOUNT!

Then I realised it was the US site.

Stop ruining my day, please

Tacs were good in 4th with the two in 5 for heavy + special. They are also good in the ultra marines tactics.

I think what tactical marines(and most marines) suffer from is they are priced as jack of all trades but don't do anything well enough to be specialists that can get the job done. Fire dragons blow up vehicles and heavy infantry, it's what they do. There is no real space marine equivalent that has rules and weapons that make it so it can fulfill that role. Think about the units that get taken. Grab cents, they have a role that they excel at. Scouts, they excel at taking objectives and holding them for cheap, stern guard bring ammo that is useful in all situations as well as a dedicated role. Bikes, bring enough special weapons and mobility to fill a role as well.

I think what is necessary is to identify the primary role that marines are going to occupy and then have them get rules that support that. I look at the storm raven/tactical formation. I really like it as a concept. Here we have tactical marines providing support and other measures to get the specialized units into their roles while still maintaining the ability to score the mission.

So maybe something like 10 man units get a free upgrade, or a discount on a transport. Give them something that supports their taking of objectives, like fire at bs2 while gone to ground. Just a lot of different things that could be done to reinforce that role. Same with terminators, maybe something like "the bulwark" where units getting cover saves from terminators get +1 cover to represent them being at the front obsorbing the fire as they advance into the storm". I think stuff like that would be awesome to see, bring the thematic aspect of the game to the table while increasing the variety.

Personally I think the rules and combinations in the dark Angels book are absolutely fantastic. I think they got a little to focused on the anti chaos aspect and instead should have just done general rules(which they have since fixed in most of the regular books). The warhead and abilities the units have are directly tied to what makes sense in the fluff. they just got all the points wrong by like 5~10 per model.

I've been drop podding 80-90 marines in drop pods and doing well with them. 90 marines are hard to kill. Combat Squad them for 18 units and you can do a lot....

 Leth wrote:
Tacs were good in 4th with the two in 5 for heavy + special. They are also good in the ultra marines tactics.

I think what tactical marines(and most marines) suffer from is they are priced as jack of all trades but don't do anything well enough to be specialists that can get the job done. Fire dragons blow up vehicles and heavy infantry, it's what they do. There is no real space marine equivalent that has rules and weapons that make it so it can fulfill that role. Think about the units that get taken. Grab cents, they have a role that they excel at. Scouts, they excel at taking objectives and holding them for cheap, stern guard bring ammo that is useful in all situations as well as a dedicated role. Bikes, bring enough special weapons and mobility to fill a role as well.

I think what is necessary is to identify the primary role that marines are going to occupy and then have them get rules that support that. I look at the storm raven/tactical formation. I really like it as a concept. Here we have tactical marines providing support and other measures to get the specialized units into their roles while still maintaining the ability to score the mission.

So maybe something like 10 man units get a free upgrade, or a discount on a transport. Give them something that supports their taking of objectives, like fire at bs2 while gone to ground. Just a lot of different things that could be done to reinforce that role. Same with terminators, maybe something like "the bulwark" where units getting cover saves from terminators get +1 cover to represent them being at the front obsorbing the fire as they advance into the storm". I think stuff like that would be awesome to see, bring the thematic aspect of the game to the table while increasing the variety.

Personally I think the rules and combinations in the dark Angels book are absolutely fantastic. I think they got a little to focused on the anti chaos aspect and instead should have just done general rules(which they have since fixed in most of the regular books). The warhead and abilities the units have are directly tied to what makes sense in the fluff. they just got all the points wrong by like 5~10 per model.

Yes, very true. This is why the ideal loadouts are a bunch of shooters, a bunch of close combat, etc. -- or at least enough that the other guys don't feel like a tax. Who wants one lascannon and 9 guys picking their noses because they're out of range?

 Talys wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're useful for anything BUT being Tactical Marines.

I think the last time a Tac Marine was useful in 40k (as in, actually a desirable unit, not FOC filler) was back in very early 3rd Edition.

It's all in the arms race. Everything got bigger, beefier, and tougher. Suddenly, the glorified submachinegun doesn't feel so useful when you're shooting a tank that's going to drive over you, a giant robot that's going to squish you, a jetfighter that you have no chance of shooting down, or the super-duper-magical invisible dudes that roll fifty hundredteen dice, or the hyper advanced species that just gets back up when you kill it.

The other problem with Tacs is that you have 1 heavy weapon and 2 special weapons, which is so stupid, because you end up with 1 long range shooter and 2 medium range shooters, and 7 guys lined up to die in their place. It's not as bad now that we can combat squad them out though. But even then, 1 long range shooter doesn't need 4 expensive babysitters to eat pot shots.

Uh, not having two Specials is one of the primary issues. If they had two specials I'd actually start using them to supplement Bikers, but that's not available.

Maybe Tactical Marines/Devastator will be able to take a special or heavy weapon on every model!

Or not.

I'm only sad we won't be using a army list section at the back of the book anymore, with all the points costs and such. Going to have to flip pages until the Battlescribe updates.

Then again, I'd be happy as long as my Centurion Star doesn't go up in points, Tigurius is still good, and Drop Pods go Fast attack. Drop Podding a Culuxes into an enemy seer council is going to make me soooo happppy.

I always found it odd that IG Veterans can take three special weapons, but Tactical Marines cannot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Talys wrote:

It's all in the arms race. Everything got bigger, beefier, and tougher. Suddenly, the glorified submachinegun doesn't feel so useful when you're shooting a tank that's going to drive over you, a giant robot that's going to squish you, a jetfighter that you have no chance of shooting down, or the super-duper-magical invisible dudes that roll fifty hundredteen dice, or the hyper advanced species that just gets back up when you kill it.

The other problem with Tacs is that you have 1 heavy weapon and 2 special weapons, which is so stupid, because you end up with 1 long range shooter and 2 medium range shooters, and 7 guys lined up to die in their place. It's not as bad now that we can combat squad them out though. But even then, 1 long range shooter doesn't need 4 expensive babysitters to eat pot shots.

Uh, not having two Specials is one of the primary issues. If they had two specials I'd actually start using them to supplement Bikers, but that's not available.

I'm including the Sergeant taking a combi.

So basically, you can have 5 man troop with plasma, combi plasma, 3 junk; or 10 man squad with plasma, combi plasma, lascannon; or 5 man troop with combi-plasma, lascanon. Only the first makes any sense at all, because in #2 and #3, you end up with 2 special weapons with wildly different ranges as the heavy weapon. This is what I've always hated about tactical squads. Splitting them up helps a little, but then you have 4 guys + 1 heavy weapon (what a waste of 4 guys).


The tactical squad should allow in a 5 man squad 2 heavy or special weapons (and sergeant can take a combi); or in a 10 man squad, 4 heavy or special weapons (and sergeant can take a combi). Then, they would actually get enough dice to be worth blowing the 70 points base.

I actually find that now tacticals without any upgrades is the best choice, I leave heavy weapons to my devastators. And then again I play DA who can make bolters slitely more usefull.

I'd like a squad of nothing but special weapon Marines a la 30k support squads, may be stick them in Elites rather than Troops? You can kind of do this with Sternguard kitted up with Combis but they are an expensive option.

 Looky Likey wrote:
I'd like a squad of nothing but special weapon Marines a la 30k support squads, may be stick them in Elites rather than Troops? You can kind of do this with Sternguard kitted up with Combis but they are an expensive option.

They make that. It is called the Command Squad. You can run five Special Weapons if you want. The BA one comes stock with the Company Champion and Apothecary, but as of right now, the regular SM one can be all Special Weapon Marines. I run a squad of four Specials and an Apothecary for added survivability.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Looky Likey wrote:
I'd like a squad of nothing but special weapon Marines a la 30k support squads, may be stick them in Elites rather than Troops? You can kind of do this with Sternguard kitted up with Combis but they are an expensive option.

They make that. It is called the Command Squad. You can run five Special Weapons if you want. The BA one comes stock with the Company Champion and Apothecary, but as of right now, the regular SM one can be all Special Weapon Marines. I run a squad of four Specials and an Apothecary for added survivability.

Yeah, the issue is that command squads are HQ. In the current FOC you're stuck with taking (some) troops, and you're limited to just 2 HQ per CAD, so it's a double whammy. Not only are HQ slots highly valuable, but a command squad with 5 special weapons costs quite a bit (say, 175+) -- and then you're just below the range of Centurion squads, which don't take up an HQ, and can be far more powerful (and durable).

To have parity with Eldar, Space Marines would like a troop unit where every model can be loaded up with mid-range special weapon, so that every bolter is a conscious choice rather than a forced "tax". Or, like Cult Mechanicus, where there is a good, heavy ranged shooter as a troop (Kataphron), or like the Skitarii where every troop model has an option to have a pretty great weapon (like Haywire). I'm not suggesting that Space Marines get *exactly* the same thing as Eldar, Skitarii, or Cult -- just that there is something available for the tactical marines in the troop slot (or some other unit that's troop) where you can pick a cohesive set of weapons, so that you're not paying 14 points each for a bunch of guys who have no purpose other than to die instead of the guy with the better gun.

Incidentally, I believe the Blood Angels Assault marines are a pretty good compromise, since you can get 3 special weapons in 5 models (2 + combi), and they can have a free drop pod or rhino; and the squad cost is cheap. If space marines have something like this for troops, RAWR.

 Talys wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Looky Likey wrote:
I'd like a squad of nothing but special weapon Marines a la 30k support squads, may be stick them in Elites rather than Troops? You can kind of do this with Sternguard kitted up with Combis but they are an expensive option.

They make that. It is called the Command Squad. You can run five Special Weapons if you want. The BA one comes stock with the Company Champion and Apothecary, but as of right now, the regular SM one can be all Special Weapon Marines. I run a squad of four Specials and an Apothecary for added survivability.

Yeah, the issue is that command squads are HQ.

No...they are slotless, opened up by taking a Captain, Librarian, or Chaplain or a character Captain/Librarian/Chaplain. And if they do go in a slot like the Blood Angels ones are, they will go in Elites, no HQ.

If tacticals could double-tap with their bolters the way tac marines can in 30k with "Fury of the Legion", it would be pretty nice. At least you could get some use out of your meat shields on the turn they come out of their drop pod. Then again, that just exacerbates some of the problems I always had with 40k: maneuver and positioning isn't as important when so many things can appear from nowhere and obliterate you, and one player consistently doesn't get to use like 25% of their units because I-Go-U-Go and powerful alpha strikes ensure they're removed from the board before you get to do anything.

I know not completely related to tactical sqds, but I think the HB needs to be bumped to S6. It might just become a little more popular.
As for tacticals, on paper they sound good. Good stats, the bolter is decent as a basic weapon (compare to shuriken catapult), frag and krak grenades, etc. It's just that people rely on special/hvy weapons to do damage due to what they are likely to face on the table. But how is a special weapon "special" if they become so rampant throughout a sqd?
tactical marines should be given some bonuses for doing their jobs, and I think formations are the only way around this. I'd recommend a free transport (rhino or pod, bare bones...can buy upgrades) for each 10 man sqd and give them either salvo 2/4 (like DA dakka banner) or reroll misses when holding an objective. Of course the formation would likely need 3 tac sqds, 1 assault sqd, 1 dev sqd to unlock this.

Salt up, because it's time for redirect rumors from Faeit 212/Natfka:

via Atia on Bolter and Chainsword
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305237-rumours-space-marines-codex-assault-marines-hq-tanks/?p=4051954
well, you'll get a sneak prev @ monday

also, you will get an Ultramarine Paint Splatter in next weeks WD
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305237-rumours-space-marines-codex-assault-marines-hq-tanks/?p=4052170
Next week: painting blue and gold

Space Marine/ Dark Angel Re-Directs

Space Marine Assault Squad
Datacards: Space Marines
New Codex: Space Marines
Space Marine HQ Command Tanks:

new Dark Angels Battleforce
Codex Dark Angels 2015:
Codex. Dark Angels eBook:
Datacards Dark Angels:

Atia's redirects have been entirely predictive. No salt for me.

I just want whatever detachment Crimson Fists are eligible for to give tacticals relentless, then I'll be happy

So what are they going to do to the assault marines to make us all want to buy more. I already have a good number of them...

 General Kroll wrote:
So what are they going to do to the assault marines to make us all want to buy more. I already have a good number of them...

Apparently, they're gaining the ability to take grav pistols, and to swap out their chainsword for another pistol, in addition to getting an increase in the number of special pistols they can take per squad.

As a Blood Angels player, I am extremely butthurt... again...

I think Tac squads could really use the split fire rule. Why is it that when Mr Lascannon shoots at a tank across the board, the bolter dudes can't shoot the chumps 12" in front of them? And vice versa, the lascannon shouldn't be forced to shoot the chumps if there's a nice tank nearby to shoot at.

 General Kroll wrote:
So what are they going to do to the assault marines to make us all want to buy more. I already have a good number of them...

I would say it's all about bringing it up to date on how the sprue are made these days. Separate the arm and weapons and put in what is “missing”, i.e. flamer and gravpistol.
The kit that's out now is arm and boltpistol in one. A pain if magnatize alot. I had to cut of a hand or two just to get the plasma, flamer, boltpistol option on two guys.