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 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Exalted Kid-Kyoto. But CSM, Orks, and Sisters are the bottom tiers. (Sadly Sisters are the only 'imperial' army in need of overall, vanilla marines, and the flavors are all still good just not super uber op like their Grey Knight buddies. So their now deluded into thinking DA and BA are bad.)

Nids are also in the mix but they still have some dirty tricks here and there that in the right hands make them tough.

Dark Elves are right on the heels of the Space Marines, and ahead of Nids. Maybe around the Skitarii/ Ad Mech/ IG tier.

It's not a delusion. BA are certainly not good, so "bad" seems like an appropriate term.

Yeah, at this point, Blood Angels are just bad. Much worse than DE. (Although not as bad as 'nids, imo.)

Well technically everything is bad, now, except maybe Necrons. But I bet even they would argue Necrons aren't good because they aren't "Eldar good".

 Sidstyler wrote:
Well technically everything is bad, now, except maybe Necrons. But I bet even they would argue Necrons aren't good because they aren't "Eldar good".

They are second good, kinda like Dark Elves, Skaven, and Vampire Counts compared to Daemons of Chaos in 7th edition fantasy.

Right now I'm just wishing CSM was bumped up a few notches and given a new codex rather then having to deal with Daemonkin at this point.

Naw Necrons are the number one army, GK #2, and Eldar is third in line.

I've always kind of enjoyed Dark Eldar being seen as "hard mode" Eldar; they were very much viewed in that fashion when they first came out.

I do not know how that maxim stacks up these days, if they are simply harder to run well or just outclassed by the big and bad armies. My opinion is that they are solidly mid-tier.

Dark Eldar are definitely stronger than Orks, Adeptas Sororitas, and vanilla Chaos Space Marines. And certainly more powerful than the mini-dexes like Skitarii or Harlequins.

I would say they are about even in power level as Astra Militarum in that if you get one good round of shooting and or alpha strike off the game swings heavily in your favor. If not, then its almost impossible to crawl your way back into victory.

They are a win big/lose big army.

DE are not at all that weak. They Require a certain skill set to use them. Unlike other armies, they arent a cut n paste army to where all of your problems are taken care of with a simple easy 1 size fits all unit.

I have a very good track record playing them, But the way the army plays is the way I like to field my army. Alot of players get upset when they cant find a simple solution to make an "easy button". Playing DE is hard mode for sure. It is a double edged sword(very sharp one). You either won big, or get destroyed.

If the DE HQ section stopped being a tax, I'd probably be a lot kinder to the book. It would still have a lot of issues, but at least it might be a bit more fun to play.

 vipoid wrote:
If the DE HQ section stopped being a tax, I'd probably be a lot kinder to the book. It would still have a lot of issues, but at least it might be a bit more fun to play.

Yeah, really the DE book is all about how many FA choices you can take. Coven shenanagins are also useful but HQ, Troops, and HS are really lackluster.

My friend runs like 10 raiders and a couple venoms, it's a pretty nasty list and almost everyone has trouble with it. He's a really good player and the sheer volume of fire that lists puts out, along with the mobility, makes it tough to beat. No matter how many raiders I kill there's always more waiting to unleash 20 twin linked poison shots.

Weakest? Eh, I think that goes to DA or CSM without Allies or Forgeworld.

Its not the weakest dex. It tends to fold against certain match ups, and it really really wants to go first.

Honestly I'd rank Orks, Chaos Marines, and DA all underneath it.


The issue with the DE codex is that, if played poorly, it drops to the lowest tier of power. If played well, it rises to the top of the middle tier. I can't think of many codexes that have that much of a swing in power for playability. List building, sure, but not actual gameplay.

DE are great...

Revers are exceptional units.
Squads of talos are also brutal.
HQ is not bad - have you seen the witch HQ?
AP3 flamers in multiple forms.
Sqourges? Not bad ether.
Cheap well armed assault transport SKIMMERS (making them tougher than most tanks even at AV 10 open topped).
Razorwing? amazing flyer (probably the best)

They have the tools - they aren't weak at all.
They don't have a NDK or RIPTIDE or FLYRANT type unit.
They also don't have psykers

guess all they have to do is ally in a farseer and a wraithgard unit to easily kill those things and have access to the best spells in the game...really - not that weak at all.

 Xenomancers wrote:
DE are great...

Revers are exceptional units. Depends what you face - any Ignores Cover weapons or Torrent Flamers will just shred them. In addition, they work best in small squads, but those eat through your FA slots really quickly.
Squads of talos are also brutal. But also incredibly slow.
HQ is not bad - have you seen the witch HQ? Yes - she is unbelievably flimsy even in combat, and her damage output doesn't make up for that.
AP3 flamers in multiple forms. 1) Anti-Infantry is rarely something DE struggle with to begin with - anti-tank is what we need, 2) Those flamers are not on in particularly useful places, if you see what I mean.
Sqourges? Not bad ether. No argument there. But, you'll notice that these are more FA units.
Cheap well armed assault transport SKIMMERS (making them tougher than most tanks even at AV 10 open topped). Firstly, well-armed is a dubious statement to begin with. Veoms get 12 shots, but when you're wounding on 4s with negligible AP those don't actually translate to many wounds. And, of course, if you're bringing a lot of venoms then you really don't want to run into any kind of mech list. Ravagers look well armed, with their 3 Dark Lances, until you do the math and realise that the Dark Lance is an abysmal weapon in 7th (not that it was much better in 6th). So, the Ravager having 3 of them doesn't really make it well-armed, and Raiders only have one of them so I've no idea how they'd ever qualify as "well-armed". Also, being skimmers doesn't automatically make them tougher than other tanks with better armour. Especially when jinking forces them to sacrifice most of their firepower, and their pitiful armour and open-topped basically means they *have* to jink if they want to stay alive.
Razorwing? amazing flyer (probably the best) And yet another FA unit...

They have the tools - they aren't weak at all. They really are.
They don't have a NDK or RIPTIDE or FLYRANT type unit.
They also don't have psykers

guess all they have to do is ally in a farseer and a wraithgard unit to easily kill those things and have access to the best spells in the game...really - not that weak at all.


For one, allies should be ignored when determining a book's strength. If it needs allies to be strong, then it cannot possibly be a strong book.

Furthermore, I don't suppose you've loosed at the less-used units?

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to why Wyches, Bloodbrides, Wracks, Hellions Haemonculi, Beast Packs and such are strong? Perhaps you'd like to explain how our character's melee weapons are strong? Or, is DE a really strong codex... so long as you ignore all the weak elements?

I think the thing with Dark Eldar is that they can often appear, for lack of a better word, misleading. They have some really good matchups which skew people's views considerably and blind them to the army's (many) weaknesses.

e.g. All those poison guns look broken good when someone is playing a biker army or a MC-heavy nid army, and the DE player is wounding them on 4s. They don't see those same weapons wounding guardsmen and fire warriors on 4s, or being utterly useless when everything is in a vehicle.

Similarly, Dark Lances look amazing when your land raider or leman russ is only as durable as a chimera. However, then you see them against a list with a lot of plain chimera, and realise that it takes several hundred points of Ravagers to kill a single 65pt Chimera.

DE are one of those armies that seem to have some really good matchups, a lot of really bad matchups and not much middle ground.

They seem bad on paper, but I'm consistently surprised by how well they perform.

Then why do they not win tournaments, if they are good?

Makumba wrote:
Then why do they not win tournaments, if they are good?

Because there are 4 or so armies above them in power and popularity. So they have fewer players that bring them to tournaments and have a much harder time holding up against the armies that are way and above stronger than them.

text removed.

Reds8n

text removed.

Reds8n

Anymore behaviour like the above and people will not be posting at all.

 Xenomancers wrote:
DE are great...

Revers are exceptional units.
Squads of talos are also brutal.
HQ is not bad - have you seen the witch HQ?
AP3 flamers in multiple forms.
Sqourges? Not bad ether.
Cheap well armed assault transport SKIMMERS (making them tougher than most tanks even at AV 10 open topped).
Razorwing? amazing flyer (probably the best)

They have the tools - they aren't weak at all.
They don't have a NDK or RIPTIDE or FLYRANT type unit.
They also don't have psykers

guess all they have to do is ally in a farseer and a wraithgard unit to easily kill those things and have access to the best spells in the game...really - not that weak at all.

I agree with all of the points you made. Im always having to adjust my list and use different units to keep an edge against my local meta(Eldar,IG,Nids,SM,Nercons,IG). After testing each unit against each army, Im able to kinda get an idea on what units work well together.

Makumba wrote:
Then why do they not win tournaments, if they are good?

Dark Eldar are one of the hardest armies to play. The type of person who wins major tournaments brings armies that are easy to play, and thus easy to master.

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
DE are great...

Revers are exceptional units. Depends what you face - any Ignores Cover weapons or Torrent Flamers will just shred them. In addition, they work best in small squads, but those eat through your FA slots really quickly.
Squads of talos are also brutal. But also incredibly slow.
HQ is not bad - have you seen the witch HQ? Yes - she is unbelievably flimsy even in combat, and her damage output doesn't make up for that.
AP3 flamers in multiple forms. 1) Anti-Infantry is rarely something DE struggle with to begin with - anti-tank is what we need, 2) Those flamers are not on in particularly useful places, if you see what I mean.
Sqourges? Not bad ether. No argument there. But, you'll notice that these are more FA units.
Cheap well armed assault transport SKIMMERS (making them tougher than most tanks even at AV 10 open topped). Firstly, well-armed is a dubious statement to begin with. Veoms get 12 shots, but when you're wounding on 4s with negligible AP those don't actually translate to many wounds. And, of course, if you're bringing a lot of venoms then you really don't want to run into any kind of mech list. Ravagers look well armed, with their 3 Dark Lances, until you do the math and realise that the Dark Lance is an abysmal weapon in 7th (not that it was much better in 6th). So, the Ravager having 3 of them doesn't really make it well-armed, and Raiders only have one of them so I've no idea how they'd ever qualify as "well-armed". Also, being skimmers doesn't automatically make them tougher than other tanks with better armour. Especially when jinking forces them to sacrifice most of their firepower, and their pitiful armour and open-topped basically means they *have* to jink if they want to stay alive.
Razorwing? amazing flyer (probably the best) And yet another FA unit...

They have the tools - they aren't weak at all. They really are.
They don't have a NDK or RIPTIDE or FLYRANT type unit.
They also don't have psykers

guess all they have to do is ally in a farseer and a wraithgard unit to easily kill those things and have access to the best spells in the game...really - not that weak at all.


For one, allies should be ignored when determining a book's strength. If it needs allies to be strong, then it cannot possibly be a strong book.

Furthermore, I don't suppose you've loosed at the less-used units?

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to why Wyches, Bloodbrides, Wracks, Hellions Haemonculi, Beast Packs and such are strong? Perhaps you'd like to explain how our character's melee weapons are strong? Or, is DE a really strong codex... so long as you ignore all the weak elements?

I think the thing with Dark Eldar is that they can often appear, for lack of a better word, misleading. They have some really good matchups which skew people's views considerably and blind them to the army's (many) weaknesses.

e.g. All those poison guns look broken good when someone is playing a biker army or a MC-heavy nid army, and the DE player is wounding them on 4s. They don't see those same weapons wounding guardsmen and fire warriors on 4s, or being utterly useless when everything is in a vehicle.

Similarly, Dark Lances look amazing when your land raider or leman russ is only as durable as a chimera. However, then you see them against a list with a lot of plain chimera, and realise that it takes several hundred points of Ravagers to kill a single 65pt Chimera.

DE are one of those armies that seem to have some really good matchups, a lot of really bad matchups and not much middle ground.

Tanks are literally the easiest thing in the game to kill. Nothing is easier. Tanks have no armor saves and can rarely gain cover. Most people have stopped using them. Those who don't - might fare okay against DE that didn't bring a lot of AT. However - blasters, DL, Heatlance, haywire nades/blasters - are not only not bad anti tank weapons - but some of the best in the game. So I really fail to see your point here. DE are fine against vehicles and even if they weren't it wouldn't much matter because mech doesn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:
Then why do they not win tournaments, if they are good?

Why take Dark Eldar to a torny when you can take Eldar who are obviously OP?

Here is an interesting list that Matt put together. I thought it deserves to be shown , it has some Eldar, but more DE units are involved.


I had a ton of luck with my jet bike army.
It's:
Autarch on bike with laser lance and mask
4x3 scatter laser bikes
5 wraith guard in a serpent
4x6 reavers with 2 caltrops
2x5 scourage with haywire
10 Lhamaean in raider
2x5 warriors in venoms

Turn 1, reavers, autarch, serpent and raider all went flank out up a flank.
Opponents turn 1.
He's he's got 34 poison shots and 48 S6 shots coming in from the front, and 5 very serious assault units about to roll down his flank. The remaining 3rd of his force is out of range due to the speed bikes. He could run his death star toward the reavers, but then he's got to contest with 5 Strength D shots, and 30 attacks with 2+ poison and lethal dose. If he brings in any reserves near the reavers they'll be at risk of assault.

It put my opponent into a position with some very hard decision to make, and very little time to react.

Akiasura wrote:
Its not the weakest dex. It tends to fold against certain match ups, and it really really wants to go first.

Honestly I'd rank Orks, Chaos Marines, and DA all underneath it.


The issue with the DE codex is that, if played poorly, it drops to the lowest tier of power. If played well, it rises to the top of the middle tier. I can't think of many codexes that have that much of a swing in power for playability. List building, sure, but not actual gameplay.

This. DE are a very tough army to play, but in the hands of a good player, they do really well as long as they are not up against top tier builds.

I hardly feel like they're the weakest, my friends seem to always surprise me with how much damage then cause when given half a chance, DA and CSM seem to struggle more in my opinion :/

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tanks are literally the easiest thing in the game to kill.

No they're not.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nothing is easier.

Guardsmen, for one, say 'hi'.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Most people have stopped using them.

Your meta must be very different from mine then because I still see a ton of vehicles.

Also, maybe we just use more/different terrain, but I see vehicles getting cover saves all the time (to say nothing of jink).

 Xenomancers wrote:
However - blasters, DL, Heatlance, haywire nades/blasters - are not only not bad anti tank weapons - but some of the best in the game.

By what possible measure are any of those the best AT in the game?

Dark Lances are a poor-man's Lascannon against anything but land raiders and leman russ, and heat lances are available on barely any units and have -2 strength over standard meltas.

Haywire blasters are the only things on that list that even remotely qualify as reliable anti-tank, and even they are far from infallible. They are good anti-tank, but we're also very limited in terms of where we can actually get them (I believe there are only 2 units in the codex that can take them at all).


I should point out again though that I don't think DE are the weakest codex. And, if you rarely see any vehicles... well I can certainly see why DE are having a good time.

The claim that 'it can't be good if it needs allies' seems silly to me. Almost all codexes are better with allies.

Gasoline is mildly corrosive. A match causes a tiny amount of damage. Together they are far more destructive than they are apart. So too are the various space elf armies.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The claim that 'it can't be good if it needs allies' seems silly to me. Almost all codexes are better with allies.

Gasoline is mildly corrosive. A match causes a tiny amount of damage. Together they are far more destructive than they are apart. So too are the various space elf armies.

There's a difference between 'better with allies' and 'needs allies to be competitive' though.