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WOW....read the rule man. "their type" ......meaning the IC model the rule is talking about. Not units. Units are never mentioned, and thus are NOT being refered to. Its Models. FFS mate.
I told you.....twice now, go read a codex. It doesn't matter that the BRB doesnt say "Units can have special rules" to the letter. That permission is granted by the codex when it lists special rules on the UNIT ENTRIES. I'm not going to post the rules for almost every unit in the game. The burden is on YOU to educate yourself.
OK where do I find rules for model types? Or have you invented them?
The rules listed under a unit entry are the rules the MODELS in the unit have, not what the unit has. We are told this both in the BrB and in all 7th Edition codexes. 6th Ed codexes are less clear by simply listing special rules in unit entries however the BrB tells us how to deal with these and NOTHING in the codex contradicts this. If you want to make a bizarre claim that something exists in the rules you need to support that. I can't quote a rule because this is a permissive ruleset so unless you have a rule giving permission for units to have Special Rules then they can't (note how I have been able to provide such rules for models).
FlingitNow wrote: Yes model of their type, meaning unit type, unless you have another type you think it is referring to? If so please explain what type and where these are defined.
I've noticed you've neglected to mention your bizarre claim that units have special rules this time and again refuse to post or reference any rules that support your increasingly bizarre claims.
WOW....read the rule man. "their type" ......meaning the IC model the rule is talking about. Not units. Units are never mentioned, and thus are NOT being refered to. Its Models. FFS mate.
I told you.....twice now, go read a codex. It doesn't matter that the BRB doesnt say "Units can have special rules" to the letter. That permission is granted by the codex when it lists special rules on the UNIT ENTRIES. I'm not going to post the rules for almost every unit in the game. The burden is on YOU to educate yourself.
Guys, let's keep this polite. What is being said, and that I don't think you're recognizing is that, generally speaking, units don't have special rules. Generally speaking, individual models within a unit have special rules. The Psyker rules tend to be broken because there is not a single UNIT in the game with the Psyker special rule. There are plenty of MODELS with it, but no UNITs.
That changes nothing about the Rule OP was asking about.
WOW....read the rule man. "their type" ......meaning the IC model the rule is talking about. Not units. Units are never mentioned, and thus are NOT being refered to. Its Models. FFS mate.
I told you.....twice now, go read a codex. It doesn't matter that the BRB doesnt say "Units can have special rules" to the letter. That permission is granted by the codex when it lists special rules on the UNIT ENTRIES. I'm not going to post the rules for almost every unit in the game. The burden is on YOU to educate yourself.
OK where do I find rules for model types? Or have you invented them?
The rules listed under a unit entry are the rules the MODELS in the unit have, not what the unit has. We are told this both in the BrB and in all 7th Edition codexes. 6th Ed codexes are less clear by simply listing special rules in unit entries however the BrB tells us how to deal with these and NOTHING in the codex contradicts this. If you want to make a bizarre claim that something exists in the rules you need to support that. I can't quote a rule because this is a permissive ruleset so unless you have a rule giving permission for units to have Special Rules then they can't (note how I have been able to provide such rules for models).
Where does it say that special rules in unit entries apply to models?
Either way, it doesnt matter. Has nothing to do with the original JSJ question. The rules I have quoted lay it out easily. IC move as any model of its type normally would, joined or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/10 23:33:40
"while an Independent Characer is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules, purposes, thought he still follows // the movement rules for models of their type (Jet Pack Infantry), whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that trhey must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in..."
I'm not really interested in editing the rules to make new sentences. Can we just debate the actual rules as written and not change them around?
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
In the Eldar codex page 96 and in the BrB under the section on what special rules do I have. How many times does that have to be pointed out to you?
Cool so they are following the rules for a model of their UNIT type or MODEL type? If the later please tell me where I find rules for Model Types as my rulebook ONLY contains rules for Unit Types.
In reply to:
Where does it say that special rules in unit entries apply to models?
Either way, it doesnt matter. Has nothing to do with the original JSJ question. The rules I have quoted lay it out easily. IC move as any model of its type normally would, joined or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/10 23:39:56
"while an Independent Characer is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules, purposes, thought he still follows // the movement rules for models of their type (Jet Pack Infantry), whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that trhey must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in..."
I'm not really interested in editing the rules to make new sentences. Can we just debate the actual rules as written and not change them around?
Then debate it. That sentence stands just fine rules wise.
Ok then... if I have a Destroyer Lord who has joined a unit of Canoptek Wraiths, please explain the chain of events that allows him to perform a Jet Pack thrust move.
I would do so, but the rules don't support it. The burden is on you to prove he can.
Keep in mind that while in the Canoptek Wraith unit, the Destroyer Lord is no longer a unit of one model. Furthermore, keep in mind that activating a Jet Pack thrust move requires a Jet Pack unit, which we don't have.
It seems like your argument is predicated on the Destroyer Lord still being treated as a separate unit while he is a part of the Wraith unit. This is not the case.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
FlingitNow wrote: In the Eldar codex page 96 and in the BrB under the section on what special rules do I have. How many times does that have to be pointed out to you?
Cool so they are following the rules for a model of their UNIT type or MODEL type? If the later please tell me where I find rules for Model Types as my rulebook ONLY contains rules for Unit Types.
Honestly, the rule does not care whether it is MODEL or UNIT. The check is on the character. What type is the character? Jetpack Infantry? Good per the BRB we know the charcater can move as Jetpack Infantry because they SPECIFICALLY say we can.
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type."
This is one of the most clearly written rules in the book. At this point your arguments are so convoluted, I'm not even sure if you understand them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kriswall wrote: Ok then... if I have a Destroyer Lord who has joined a unit of Canoptek Wraiths, please explain the chain of events that allows him to perform a Jet Pack thrust move.
I would do so, but the rules don't support it. The burden is on you to prove he can.
Keep in mind that while in the Canoptek Wraith unit, the Destroyer Lord is no longer a unit of one model. Furthermore, keep in mind that activating a Jet Pack thrust move requires a Jet Pack unit, which we don't have.
It seems like your argument is predicated on the Destroyer Lord still being treated as a separate unit while he is a part of the Wraith unit. This is not the case.
By that logic he cant move at all...The movement rules for characters say nothing of checking unit type. The check is on the character's type and we are given specific permission to move the character independently from the unit as long as the character remains coherant.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/11 00:34:14
FlingitNow wrote: In the Eldar codex page 96 and in the BrB under the section on what special rules do I have. How many times does that have to be pointed out to you?
Cool so they are following the rules for a model of their UNIT type or MODEL type? If the later please tell me where I find rules for Model Types as my rulebook ONLY contains rules for Unit Types.
Honestly, the rule does not care whether it is MODEL or UNIT. The check is on the character. What type is the character? Jetpack Infantry? Good per the BRB we know the charcater can move as Jetpack Infantry because they SPECIFICALLY say we can.
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type."
This is one of the most clearly written rules in the book. At this point your arguments are so convoluted, I'm not even sure if you understand them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kriswall wrote: Ok then... if I have a Destroyer Lord who has joined a unit of Canoptek Wraiths, please explain the chain of events that allows him to perform a Jet Pack thrust move.
I would do so, but the rules don't support it. The burden is on you to prove he can.
Keep in mind that while in the Canoptek Wraith unit, the Destroyer Lord is no longer a unit of one model. Furthermore, keep in mind that activating a Jet Pack thrust move requires a Jet Pack unit, which we don't have.
It seems like your argument is predicated on the Destroyer Lord still being treated as a separate unit while he is a part of the Wraith unit. This is not the case.
By that logic he cant move at all...The movement rules for characters say nothing of checking unit type. The check is on the character's type and we are given specific permission to move the character independently from the unit as long as the character remains coherant.
What? That makes no sense at all. What specific part of the movement rules do you have an issue with? I didn't raise the issue of movement at all, so I'm not sure how to address your incredibly vague comment.
"THRUST MOVE
A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase."
Point out the permission in the above statement that allows an IC who is NOT currently a unit of one model to perform a Thrust Move when attached to a unit that is NOT composed of Jet Pack Infantry. Thanks.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency.
As I believe it's the unit that Runs or does not run, there's no mixing different movement types. A bike would not be able to turbo-boost, being forbidden to run and the unit cannot turbo-boost.
BRBpg 38:
RUN ... In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing.
BRBpg 63:
TURBO-BOOST Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting page.
BRBpg 65:
JUMP UNITS ... Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement.
Kriswall pasted the THRUST MOVE above. There's again the rule limiting the use of the Jet Pack to the unit, not the model. That's consistent with how the above sentences have been structured, thus the lord cannot Thrust Move as part of a wraith unit.
Honestly, the rule does not care whether it is MODEL or UNIT. The check is on the character. What type is the character? Jetpack Infantry? Good per the BRB we know the charcater can move as Jetpack Infantry because they SPECIFICALLY say we can.
So now there's character types too? How many rules do you have to invent? Given that by refusal to post where model types are listed I assume you concede they don't. So now can you please list where the rules for character types are? Or can we accept that on UNIT TYPES exist? As they are the only thing the rules ever define?
This is one of the most clearly written rules in the book. At this point your arguments are so convoluted, I'm not even sure if you understand them.
It appears not as it seems to be confusing the hell out of you so much you've tried to invent model types and now character types...
It says you move as per your unit type rules. So you move 6" ignoring intervening terrain etc. Then to thrust move you must be in an entire jetpack unit. You aren't so you can't. The rules are very clear. Breaking the rule that requires you to be in a Jetpack unit to do a thrust move is not following the rules for the Jetpack Infantry unit type. Breaking rules is not the same as following them, I really don't understand why this concept is so difficult for you to understand.
So the other way of looking at it is whether or not an Overlord, Lord or Cryptek joining a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers gets a JSJ move since he's / she's now inside a unit of Jet Pack Infantry.
Of course not.
Inventing rules so that IC's lose or change their special rules when they join units doesn't work.
Ffyllotek wrote: So the other way of looking at it is whether or not an Overlord, Lord or Cryptek joining a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers gets a JSJ move since he's / she's now inside a unit of Jet Pack Infantry.
Of course not.
Inventing rules so that IC's lose or change their special rules when they join units doesn't work.
Sadly it is because of one, very very bad rule: "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
They do indeed gain Unit-wide Special rules, Detachment Rules given to Units, or Special Rules granted to Units. I hope they change this rule one day....
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kriswall wrote: Point out the permission in the above statement that allows an IC who is NOT currently a unit of one model to perform a Thrust Move when attached to a unit that is NOT composed of Jet Pack Infantry. Thanks.
whoop whoop, Kriswall, i *think* i might have cracked this..... Let me know what you think.
So, as i was mulling over how horribly broken "for all rules purposes" was, i noticed that this very Rule that everyone loves to use as support has a clearly written exception: "though he still follows the rules for characters"
So, an IC "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" BUT uses the rules for characters. Now i glanced through those and found this:
CHARACTER AND MOVING Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
This would add movement rules to the standard "Unit moving" rules, such as an "Infantry" Unit with a "Bike" character, or Jet-Pack Character with Infantry Unit. The only limitation is Unit coherency, a specification that would be completely redundant if they were all forced to move at the same speed...
[EDIT] Maaayybe i should have read the thread fully and not skimmed it.... All has been said already .... And i find myself agreeing with "move at different speeds"...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/05/11 09:01:34
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Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
Ffyllotek wrote: So the other way of looking at it is whether or not an Overlord, Lord or Cryptek joining a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers gets a JSJ move since he's / she's now inside a unit of Jet Pack Infantry.
Of course not.
Inventing rules so that IC's lose or change their special rules when they join units doesn't work.
Is it a jetpack unit once the character joins? I'd argue no so neither the Destroyers nor the Lord can thrust move.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Ffyllotek wrote: So the other way of looking at it is whether or not an Overlord, Lord or Cryptek joining a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers gets a JSJ move since he's / she's now inside a unit of Jet Pack Infantry.
Of course not.
Inventing rules so that IC's lose or change their special rules when they join units doesn't work.
From a strict rules as written standpoint, a non Jet Pack IC who joins a unit of Jet Pack Infantry does indeed make a Thrust Move. The Thrust Move doesn't require that all models in the unit have the Jet Pack type... only that the unit itself be a Jet Pack unit. Before the IC joins, the unit is most assuredly a Jet Pack unit. After he joins, he counts as a part of the unit for all rules purposes.
It's non-intuitive, and I would imagine that most people don't play it this way, but a non Jet Pack IC in a unit of Jet Pack type models CAN make a Thrust Move along with the rest of the unit. If you need a fluff reason, imagine that one of the actual Jet Pack models in the unit briefly says, "Here boss... I'll carry you". It's like every comic book I've ever read where Superman carries the one guy who can't fly.
Compare this to a unit of non Jet Pack models like the Canoptek Wraiths. Before the IC joins, the unit is most assuredly NOT a Jet Pack unit. The Wraiths don't have access to a Thrust Move. Once the IC joins, he's a part of the unit for all rules purposes. The unit STILL doesn't know how to make a Thrust Move. It doesn't matter that the IC does. The rules NEVER give a single model the option to Thrust Move. The rules give units the option to Thrust Move. Once the IC joins the Wraiths, he is no longer a unit of one model and is instead a single model inside of a larger unit.
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I may be under thinking this. But wouldn't this fall under different movement distances withing a unit? Pg. 18 under movement rules? A thrust move us still movement, therefore must follow the basic rules of movement except where exceptions are made correct? *similar to the over watch must follow shooting rules argument for multitracker and abilities* the unit has a jet pack unit, therefore they have permission to make a thrust move. Follow all restrictions *can't charge and what not* the difference is movement allowed 0 for the wraith 2D6 for the jet pack units. Am I missing something that disallows this?
Never underestimate the Genestealers ability to sweeping advance EVERYTHING!
Yes, it is a slight under think - the permisison ot make a thrust move is predicated on the UNIT being able to make a thrust move, and not considering individual models.
Its a litlte like a cavalry IC in a unit of bikes not gaining any benefit from fleet. Doesnt make a huge amount of "sense", but is rules.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes, it is a slight under think - the permisison ot make a thrust move is predicated on the UNIT being able to make a thrust move, and not considering individual models.
But don't ICs follow the rules for *units* of their type when in another unit? And jet pack *units* can make a thrust move.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes, it is a slight under think - the permisison ot make a thrust move is predicated on the UNIT being able to make a thrust move, and not considering individual models.
But don't ICs follow the rules for *units* of their type when in another unit? And jet pack *units* can make a thrust move.
They follow their unit type, yes
Now find a rule allowing the IC - which is NOT a unit while a member of the Wraith unit - to make a unit level decision.
The Wraith unit is the unit that must be determined if it can make a thrust move or not, and the wraith unit is not jet pack, so cannot do so. The IC is stuck as it can not invoke, by itself, a unit level rule.
Which is what Fling is on about, albeit unhelpfully as usual. Units rarely have rules, individuals models do in stead. So the unit most certaiunly is NOT a jet pack unit, and cannot make a jet pack move.
What is a jetpack unit? I'm confident a unit comprised solely of models with the Jetpack unit type is a jetpack unit. Is a unit that includes some models with JP unit type considered a Jetpack unit? Can you prove that?
What is a jetpack unit? I'm confident a unit comprised solely of models with the Jetpack unit type is a jetpack unit. Is a unit that includes some models with JP unit type considered a Jetpack unit? Can you prove that?
Do you have a rules citation to back up your assertion that the unit has to be comprised solely of models with the Jet Pack unit type?
As has been stated, as per the rules...
Unit A is comprised of Beasts with a joined Jet Pack IC. This is a Beasts unit.
Unit B is comprised of Jet Pack Infantry with a joined Infantry IC. This is a Jet Pack unit.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
What is a jetpack unit? I'm confident a unit comprised solely of models with the Jetpack unit type is a jetpack unit. Is a unit that includes some models with JP unit type considered a Jetpack unit? Can you prove that?
Do you have a rules citation to back up your assertion that the unit has to be comprised solely of models with the Jet Pack unit type?
As has been stated, as per the rules...
Unit A is comprised of Beasts with a joined Jet Pack IC. This is a Beasts unit.
Unit B is comprised of Jet Pack Infantry with a joined Infantry IC. This is a Jet Pack unit.
The rules don't actually say that do they. They say he is part of the unit for all rules purposes not that he gains all the properties of the models in the unit. Which is what you are claiming.
What is a jetpack unit? I'm confident a unit comprised solely of models with the Jetpack unit type is a jetpack unit. Is a unit that includes some models with JP unit type considered a Jetpack unit? Can you prove that?
Do you have a rules citation to back up your assertion that the unit has to be comprised solely of models with the Jet Pack unit type?
As has been stated, as per the rules...
Unit A is comprised of Beasts with a joined Jet Pack IC. This is a Beasts unit.
Unit B is comprised of Jet Pack Infantry with a joined Infantry IC. This is a Jet Pack unit.
The rules don't actually say that do they. They say he is part of the unit for all rules purposes not that he gains all the properties of the models in the unit. Which is what you are claiming.
I'm claiming nothing of the sort. I'm not saying that the IC actually changes his unit type. Please remember that "model" and "unit" are not the same thing. A unit consisting of 3 Necron Destroyers and 1 Necron Lord is a "Jet Pack Unit" consisting of "3 Jet Pack unit type models and 1 Infantry (Character) unit type model". At no point did I say that the Lord becomes a Jet Pack Infantry model. He simply is able to benefit from the Jet Pack Thrust Move by being in the right place at the right time... namely as one model in a Jet Pack unit.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
At this point i would support this rule, as has already been stated:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
So even though it is a "Beast Unit", any characters with different Unit Types will be restricted.
I would say this applies to thrust moves as it is the Unit's "movement"...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/11 12:58:35
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Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
I'm claiming nothing of the sort. I'm not saying that the IC actually changes his unit type. Please remember that "model" and "unit" are not the same thing. A unit consisting of 3 Necron Destroyers and 1 Necron Lord is a "Jet Pack Unit" consisting of "3 Jet Pack unit type models and 1 Infantry (Character) unit type model". At no point did I say that the Lord becomes a Jet Pack Infantry model. He simply is able to benefit from the Jet Pack Thrust Move by being in the right place at the right time... namely as one model in a Jet Pack unit.
So how do you know it is a jetpack unit? What rules are you using to determine that? Or are you contesting that ICs joining aunit never change the unit properties of that unit?
BlackTalos wrote: At this point i would support this rule, as has already been stated:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
So even though it is a "Beast Unit", any characters with different Unit Types will be restricted.
I would say this applies to thrust moves as it is the Unit's "movement"...
The Thrust Move is a special feature of Jet Pack units. It's not really a model's movement at all. Jet Pack models move as per their "parent type". So, Jet Pack Infantry models move as per regular Infantry models. In other words, the Destroyer Lord gets to move 6" in the movement phase and 0" in the Assault phase. IF he's part of a Jet Pack unit that elects to make the UNIT LEVEL decision to activate a Thrust Move, he gets to make an additional move of 2D6"... as do all other models in the unit. The Thrust Move has nothing to do with the individual models. It is only relevant to the unit as a whole.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
BlackTalos wrote: At this point i would support this rule, as has already been stated:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
So even though it is a "Beast Unit", any characters with different Unit Types will be restricted.
I would say this applies to thrust moves as it is the Unit's "movement"...
The Thrust Move is a special feature of Jet Pack units. It's not really a model's movement at all. Jet Pack models move as per their "parent type". So, Jet Pack Infantry models move as per regular Infantry models. In other words, the Destroyer Lord gets to move 6" in the movement phase and 0" in the Assault phase. IF he's part of a Jet Pack unit that elects to make the UNIT LEVEL decision to activate a Thrust Move, he gets to make an additional move of 2D6"... as do all other models in the unit. The Thrust Move has nothing to do with the individual models. It is only relevant to the unit as a whole.
Having the RaW before me i disagree. It's not in the movement phase, but it is the "Unit Type:Jet Pack" movement, and therefore is covered by "follow the movement rules for models of their type":
Movement:
"Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs" <= Using the Jet pack = part of movement
"When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move[...])<= Thrust move = Using the Jet pack
So Thrust move = Using the Jet pack = part of movement and characters do so independently from a Unit.
BlackTalos wrote: At this point i would support this rule, as has already been stated:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
So even though it is a "Beast Unit", any characters with different Unit Types will be restricted.
I would say this applies to thrust moves as it is the Unit's "movement"...
You know that following and breaking rules are not the same thing right?
Which Rule is broken?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/11 13:07:57
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Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
BlackTalos wrote: At this point i would support this rule, as has already been stated:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
So even though it is a "Beast Unit", any characters with different Unit Types will be restricted.
I would say this applies to thrust moves as it is the Unit's "movement"...
The Thrust Move is a special feature of Jet Pack units. It's not really a model's movement at all. Jet Pack models move as per their "parent type". So, Jet Pack Infantry models move as per regular Infantry models. In other words, the Destroyer Lord gets to move 6" in the movement phase and 0" in the Assault phase. IF he's part of a Jet Pack unit that elects to make the UNIT LEVEL decision to activate a Thrust Move, he gets to make an additional move of 2D6"... as do all other models in the unit. The Thrust Move has nothing to do with the individual models. It is only relevant to the unit as a whole.
Having the RaW before me i disagree. It's not in the movement phase, but it is the "Unit Type:Jet Pack" movement, and therefore is covered by "follow the movement rules for models of their type":
Movement:
"Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs" <= Using the Jet pack = part of movement
"When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move[...])<= Thrust move = Using the Jet pack
So Thrust move = Using the Jet pack = part of movement and characters do so independently from a Unit.
Ok, fair. Can you cite permission for a Jet Pack Infantry IC who is NOT in a Jet Pack unit to activate a Thrust Move. I freely grant that if he has the option to activate a Thrust Move, that as a Jet Pack unit type having model, he can perform one. HOWEVER, before he can perform one, he needs permission. Show the permission. Remember that while in another unit, he, himself, is not a unit.
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BlackTalos wrote: At this point i would support this rule, as has already been stated: "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
So even though it is a "Beast Unit", any characters with different Unit Types will be restricted.
I would say this applies to thrust moves as it is the Unit's "movement"...
The Thrust Move is a special feature of Jet Pack units. It's not really a model's movement at all. Jet Pack models move as per their "parent type". So, Jet Pack Infantry models move as per regular Infantry models. In other words, the Destroyer Lord gets to move 6" in the movement phase and 0" in the Assault phase. IF he's part of a Jet Pack unit that elects to make the UNIT LEVEL decision to activate a Thrust Move, he gets to make an additional move of 2D6"... as do all other models in the unit. The Thrust Move has nothing to do with the individual models. It is only relevant to the unit as a whole.
Having the RaW before me i disagree. It's not in the movement phase, but it is the "Unit Type:Jet Pack" movement, and therefore is covered by "follow the movement rules for models of their type":
Movement: "Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs" <= Using the Jet pack = part of movement "When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move[...])<= Thrust move = Using the Jet pack
So Thrust move = Using the Jet pack = part of movement and characters do so independently from a Unit.
Ok, fair. Can you cite permission for a Jet Pack Infantry IC who is NOT in a Jet Pack unit to activate a Thrust Move. I freely grant that if he has the option to activate a Thrust Move, that as a Jet Pack unit type having model, he can perform one. HOWEVER, before he can perform one, he needs permission. Show the permission. Remember that while in another unit, he, himself, is not a unit.
Obviously that has no RaW, but at this point i would go by simple logic:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type" (I emphasise on "ALL" movement Rules, not just Movement Phase ones... + Characters >= ICs)
The model: Overlord, follows (in the Assault Phase) the movement rules for models of the Type: Jet Pack Infantry, who have permission, as a Unit, to Thrust move.
I'd point out, before the Unit V Model is used again, that Cavalry or Bikes do not mention "models" or "Unit", and i would apply the same logic: "Cavalry can move up to 12"(...)" "Bikes and Jetbikes can move up to 12"(...)" "Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move(...)"
This is all "movement", which characters can do "separately" from their Units.
I do emphasise on "character", so this is intended even "within" a Unit (with no ICs attached)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/11 13:29:18
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.... And i find myself agreeing with "move at different speeds"...
