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Which Rule is broken?

The thrust move rule as you are making a thrust move withoyt being a Jetpack Unit

 FlingitNow wrote:

Which Rule is broken?

The thrust move rule as you are making a thrust move withoyt being a Jetpack Unit

Correction: The Character is making a thrust move, as is allowed by his Unit Type.

The Unit has never made a thrust move, the character alone is using the rule:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"

It's interpretation of the

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

rule, which seems to be the key.

To me this means all the rules for shooting, selecting targets, coherency etc. But is further qualified by the

"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in."

rule.

Quite clearly it says they follow rules for their type. This implies their type doesn't change when they join a unit. Seems pretty clear to me.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Which Rule is broken?

The thrust move rule as you are making a thrust move withoyt being a Jetpack Unit

Correction: The Character is making a thrust move, as is allowed by his Unit Type.

The Unit has never made a thrust move, the character alone is using the rule:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"

Thrust move is only ever done by units. So doing by a model is breaking the Thrust Move rule. So quoting a rule that says follow rules as a reason to break those rules is an odd stance. Once again I must ask are you aware that following and breaking rules are not the same thing? As you repeatedly claim they are.

In the very same way, the reverse is true:

A Jet-Pack Unit can elect to make a Thrust move. However, any character in the Unit would have to (forced to) "follow the movement rules for models of their type".

As such, the "entire Unit" is making a Thrust move, but the Character will not be able to do so. The specification "remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in" still applies though...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Which Rule is broken?

The thrust move rule as you are making a thrust move withoyt being a Jetpack Unit

Correction: The Character is making a thrust move, as is allowed by his Unit Type.

The Unit has never made a thrust move, the character alone is using the rule:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"

Thrust move is only ever done by units. So doing by a model is breaking the Thrust Move rule. So quoting a rule that says follow rules as a reason to break those rules is an odd stance. Once again I must ask are you aware that following and breaking rules are not the same thing? As you repeatedly claim they are.

When the RaW says that a certain model "follows X rules", that is an exception.
An exception does not break a Rule, it supersedes it.

Thrust move is only ever done by units. Characters have permission (exception) to move using different rules. The model can move with those rules, in addition to the Unit's "normal move". None are broken.

Or does Eternal Warrior mean you are breaking the Instant Death Rule?

When the RaW says that a certain model "follows X rules", that is an exception.
An exception does not break a Rule, it supersedes it.

Thrust move is only ever done by units. Characters have permission (exception) to move using different rules. The model can move with those rules, in addition to the Unit's "normal move". None are broken.

Or does Eternal Warrior mean you are breaking the Instant Death Rule?

Yes EW breaks the ID rule and has specific permission to do so. The rule you quoted gives no such permission in fact it says the opposite. It does not say you may break your unit type rules instead it reiterates you must follow them. Once again you seem to think breaking and following rules are the same thing. They aren't.

 FlingitNow wrote:

When the RaW says that a certain model "follows X rules", that is an exception.
An exception does not break a Rule, it supersedes it.

Thrust move is only ever done by units. Characters have permission (exception) to move using different rules. The model can move with those rules, in addition to the Unit's "normal move". None are broken.

Or does Eternal Warrior mean you are breaking the Instant Death Rule?

Yes EW breaks the ID rule and has specific permission to do so. The rule you quoted gives no such permission in fact it says the opposite. It does not say you may break your unit type rules instead it reiterates you must follow them. Once again you seem to think breaking and following rules are the same thing. They aren't.

"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"

Stop trying to explain away that rule. It's pretty clear. What's the point in saying it if it's not true?

A Jet-Pack Unit can elect to make a Thrust move. However, any character in the Unit would have to (forced to) "follow the movement rules for models of their type".

Incorrect a unit that contains non-jetpack models is not a jetpack unit. So the IC joining prevents the unit from making a thrust move wait is no longer a jetpack unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ffyllotek wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

When the RaW says that a certain model "follows X rules", that is an exception.
An exception does not break a Rule, it supersedes it.

Thrust move is only ever done by units. Characters have permission (exception) to move using different rules. The model can move with those rules, in addition to the Unit's "normal move". None are broken.

Or does Eternal Warrior mean you are breaking the Instant Death Rule?

Yes EW breaks the ID rule and has specific permission to do so. The rule you quoted gives no such permission in fact it says the opposite. It does not say you may break your unit type rules instead it reiterates you must follow them. Once again you seem to think breaking and following rules are the same thing. They aren't.

"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"

Stop trying to explain away that rule. It's pretty clear. What's the point in saying it if it's not true?

It is true. Why would they say follow rules if they meant break them? Why do you think following and breaking rules are the same thing? They aren't.

 FlingitNow wrote:

When the RaW says that a certain model "follows X rules", that is an exception.
An exception does not break a Rule, it supersedes it.

Thrust move is only ever done by units. Characters have permission (exception) to move using different rules. The model can move with those rules, in addition to the Unit's "normal move". None are broken.

Or does Eternal Warrior mean you are breaking the Instant Death Rule?

Yes EW breaks the ID rule and has specific permission to do so. The rule you quoted gives no such permission in fact it says the opposite. It does not say you may break your unit type rules instead it reiterates you must follow them. Once again you seem to think breaking and following rules are the same thing. They aren't.

EW breaks ID? A rule is only broken if no permission supersedes it (usually specific permission).

When firing a S10 weapon at a Marine with Ever-living, you do not break any Rules. You follow all of the Rules that are applicable and reach an end-situation which is valid.

Same here. In combination, the Rules for characters permit you to follow your Unit Type move, while "the whole Unit" follows its own Unit Type move. No rules are broken, all models have permission to do what they have done when you finish your move(s)

In addition, i disagree with the RaW saying "you may break your unit type rules". The character "follow the movement rules for models of their type". He is not a Jet-Pack (or simple "infantry") Unit.
He is not breaking the Unit Type rule as he is not of that Unit type....

FlingItNow wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:


"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"

Stop trying to explain away that rule. It's pretty clear. What's the point in saying it if it's not true?

It is true. Why would they say follow rules if they meant break them? Why do you think following and breaking rules are the same thing? They aren't.

I'm sorry this is tautologous nonsense and isn't really helping. Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type. So that means Character models that are infnatry follow the infantry rules and models that are jump pack infantry follow the rules for jump pack infantry. I don't know why you think I'm breaking any rules here.

Ffyllotek wrote:

FlingItNow wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:


"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"

Stop trying to explain away that rule. It's pretty clear. What's the point in saying it if it's not true?

It is true. Why would they say follow rules if they meant break them? Why do you think following and breaking rules are the same thing? They aren't.

I'm sorry this is tautologous nonsense and isn't really helping. Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type. So that means Character models that are infnatry follow the infantry rules and models that are jump pack infantry follow the rules for jump pack infantry. I don't know why you think I'm breaking any rules here.

Right so the following restrictions exist on the Thrust Move are you contenting you can ignore all of them or just some. How are you determining which?

1) You are a Jetpack UNIT (not a model with the jetpack unit type).
2) You are in the assault phase.
3) You have not charged that turn.
4) You are not locked in combat.

 FlingitNow wrote:

A Jet-Pack Unit can elect to make a Thrust move. However, any character in the Unit would have to (forced to) "follow the movement rules for models of their type".

Incorrect a unit that contains non-jetpack models is not a jetpack unit. So the IC joining prevents the unit from making a thrust move wait is no longer a jetpack unit.

How is this so? The IC "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes". If he joins a Type:JetPack Infantry Unit, why does the Unit type change? Surely it is a "rules purposes" is it not?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

When the RaW says that a certain model "follows X rules", that is an exception.
An exception does not break a Rule, it supersedes it.

Thrust move is only ever done by units. Characters have permission (exception) to move using different rules. The model can move with those rules, in addition to the Unit's "normal move". None are broken.

Or does Eternal Warrior mean you are breaking the Instant Death Rule?

Yes EW breaks the ID rule and has specific permission to do so. The rule you quoted gives no such permission in fact it says the opposite. It does not say you may break your unit type rules instead it reiterates you must follow them. Once again you seem to think breaking and following rules are the same thing. They aren't.

"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"

Stop trying to explain away that rule. It's pretty clear. What's the point in saying it if it's not true?

It is true. Why would they say follow rules if they meant break them? Why do you think following and breaking rules are the same thing? They aren't.

Just re-iterating here, but you only break a rule if you have no other permission that supersedes it.

If you fire a Barrage, Blast weapon indirectly, you do not break the rule for line of sight, because you have specific permission to "break" the rule:

All Barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast weapons, as indicated by their profile, with the following exceptions:

Same for the Characters:

he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Right so the following restrictions exist on the Thrust Move are you contenting you can ignore all of them or just some. How are you determining which?

1) You are a Jetpack UNIT (not a model with the jetpack unit type).
2) You are in the assault phase.
3) You have not charged that turn.
4) You are not locked in combat.

1) an IC joined a Jet Pack Unit. Is the Unit no longer a Jet Pack Unit? Remember: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

PS: If we are talking about Braodsides with attached Drones, that Unit is not a Jet Pack Unit "from the start"...
This obviously applies to Units that are *only* Jet Pack Units, later joined by ICs, or an IC making use of the Jet Pack movement rules (due to his own permission)

Adding this for discussion, as I feel it needs to be adressed before we can determine if a mixed unit is a Jet Pack unit.

Do units have a unit type, or do models have a unit type? The Unit Type section of the rules cover what unit type a model has, but makes no mention of what unit type a unit has (unless I'm missing something).

Are there any rules at all for determining whether or not a unit actually has a unit type, and if so, what that type would be? ...what that type would be in the presence of a mixed unit?

Example questions...

1. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry)?
2. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun Drones (Jet Pack Infantry)? All 8 models are purchased from the same Fire Warrior unit entry.
3. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun drones (Jet Pack Infantry) who have been joined by O'Vesa (Jet Pack Monstrous Creature)?

I'm guessing people are going to say Infantry to all three, but will have no rules citations as back up.

HIWPI... simply change the Thrust Move to say "A Jet Pack model..." instead of "A Jet Pack unit...". Clears up almost everything.

How is this so? The IC "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes". If he joins a Type:JetPack Infantry Unit, why does the Unit type change? Surely it is a "rules purposes" is it not?

Are you claiming that an IC joining a unit can not change the properties of that unit? Also remember he is part of the unit, he does not gain the model properties of the other models in the unit, and unit type is a model property.

1) an IC joined a Jet Pack Unit. Is the Unit no longer a Jet Pack Unit? Remember: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

Of course not why would it be? Also you seem off on a tangent that was discussing a Jetpack IC attached to a non-Jetpack unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
Adding this for discussion, as I feel it needs to be adressed before we can determine if a mixed unit is a Jet Pack unit.

Do units have a unit type, or do models have a unit type? The Unit Type section of the rules cover what unit type a model has, but makes no mention of what unit type a unit has (unless I'm missing something).

Are there any rules at all for determining whether or not a unit actually has a unit type, and if so, what that type would be? ...what that type would be in the presence of a mixed unit?

Example questions...

1. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry)?
2. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun Drones (Jet Pack Infantry)? All 8 models are purchased from the same Fire Warrior unit entry.
3. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun drones (Jet Pack Infantry) who have been joined by O'Vesa (Jet Pack Monstrous Creature)?

I'm guessing people are going to say Infantry to all three, but will have no rules citations as back up.

HIWPI... simply change the Thrust Move to say "A Jet Pack model..." instead of "A Jet Pack unit...". Clears up almost everything.

Only the first is Infantry the rest are mixed units.

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is this so? The IC "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes". If he joins a Type:JetPack Infantry Unit, why does the Unit type change? Surely it is a "rules purposes" is it not?

Are you claiming that an IC joining a unit can not change the properties of that unit? Also remember he is part of the unit, he does not gain the model properties of the other models in the unit, and unit type is a model property.

1) an IC joined a Jet Pack Unit. Is the Unit no longer a Jet Pack Unit? Remember: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

Of course not why would it be? Also you seem off on a tangent that was discussing a Jetpack IC attached to a non-Jetpack unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
Adding this for discussion, as I feel it needs to be adressed before we can determine if a mixed unit is a Jet Pack unit.

Do units have a unit type, or do models have a unit type? The Unit Type section of the rules cover what unit type a model has, but makes no mention of what unit type a unit has (unless I'm missing something).

Are there any rules at all for determining whether or not a unit actually has a unit type, and if so, what that type would be? ...what that type would be in the presence of a mixed unit?

Example questions...

1. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry)?
2. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun Drones (Jet Pack Infantry)? All 8 models are purchased from the same Fire Warrior unit entry.
3. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun drones (Jet Pack Infantry) who have been joined by O'Vesa (Jet Pack Monstrous Creature)?

I'm guessing people are going to say Infantry to all three, but will have no rules citations as back up.

HIWPI... simply change the Thrust Move to say "A Jet Pack model..." instead of "A Jet Pack unit...". Clears up almost everything.

Only the first is Infantry the rest are mixed units.

Do you have an actual rules citation to back that statement up? Do the rules actual talk about, say, Infantry units versus mixed units?

 Kriswall wrote:
Adding this for discussion, as I feel it needs to be adressed before we can determine if a mixed unit is a Jet Pack unit.

Do units have a unit type, or do models have a unit type? The Unit Type section of the rules cover what unit type a model has, but makes no mention of what unit type a unit has (unless I'm missing something).

Are there any rules at all for determining whether or not a unit actually has a unit type, and if so, what that type would be? ...what that type would be in the presence of a mixed unit?

Example questions...

1. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry)?
2. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun Drones (Jet Pack Infantry)? All 8 models are purchased from the same Fire Warrior unit entry.
3. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun drones (Jet Pack Infantry) who have been joined by O'Vesa (Jet Pack Monstrous Creature)?

I'm guessing people are going to say Infantry to all three, but will have no rules citations as back up.

HIWPI... simply change the Thrust Move to say "A Jet Pack model..." instead of "A Jet Pack unit...". Clears up almost everything.

Thing is, the BrB names some Units by type:

Jump units are equipped with (...) Jump units therefore share(...) the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. (...) follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.

Jet Pack Units
Jet packs are designed(...). As with Jump units, ‘Jet Pack’ is not a classification in and of itself.

etc

One would assume that such Units are Units composed only of models of those types, but as you point out, this might not always be the case....

So either you take it at complete face value, where such "Units" do not exists: There is not such thing as a "Jump Unit", but only Units composed of "Jump unit models".
This means that Jet Pack "Units" do not exist, and the Thrust moves are completely redundant.

Or you go by the second observation of the RaW: all models from said Units must be of the Type that corresponds in order for the definition of "Jump Unit" to exist. Most Units with these types (damn you Tau) tend to be relatively "all or nothing". And the Term "Jump Unit" can work.

So for your examples, we have:
1. Infantry
2. Infantry
3. Infantry (IC "all rules purposes" does not change a Unit type)

In addition, any character can "have a different Unit type", with respects to movement. (This is a very similar case to the "treat as")
It could be the easiest way to put this, that i read the "follows these Rules" RaW as "Treat characters as Unit Type X, for the purposes of movement".

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Adding this for discussion, as I feel it needs to be adressed before we can determine if a mixed unit is a Jet Pack unit.

Do units have a unit type, or do models have a unit type? The Unit Type section of the rules cover what unit type a model has, but makes no mention of what unit type a unit has (unless I'm missing something).

Are there any rules at all for determining whether or not a unit actually has a unit type, and if so, what that type would be? ...what that type would be in the presence of a mixed unit?

Example questions...

1. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry)?
2. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun Drones (Jet Pack Infantry)? All 8 models are purchased from the same Fire Warrior unit entry.
3. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun drones (Jet Pack Infantry) who have been joined by O'Vesa (Jet Pack Monstrous Creature)?

I'm guessing people are going to say Infantry to all three, but will have no rules citations as back up.

HIWPI... simply change the Thrust Move to say "A Jet Pack model..." instead of "A Jet Pack unit...". Clears up almost everything.

Thing is, the BrB names some Units by type:

Jump units are equipped with (...) Jump units therefore share(...) the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. (...) follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.

Jet Pack Units
Jet packs are designed(...). As with Jump units, ‘Jet Pack’ is not a classification in and of itself.

etc

One would assume that such Units are Units composed only of models of those types, but as you point out, this might not always be the case....

So either you take it at complete face value, where such "Units" do not exists: There is not such thing as a "Jump Unit", but only Units composed of "Jump unit models".
This means that Jet Pack "Units" do not exist, and the Thrust moves are completely redundant.

Or you go by the second observation of the RaW: all models from said Units must be of the Type that corresponds in order for the definition of "Jump Unit" to exist. Most Units with these types (damn you Tau) tend to be relatively "all or nothing". And the Term "Jump Unit" can work.

So for your examples, we have:
1. Infantry
2. Infantry
3. Infantry (IC "all rules purposes" does not change a Unit type)

In addition, any character can "have a different Unit type", with respects to movement. (This is a very similar case to the "treat as")
It could be the easiest way to put this, that i read the "follows these Rules" RaW as "Treat characters as Unit Type X, for the purposes of movement".

I agree that we have to assume these units exist. I just don't think they're defined. I also don't think mixed units are defined?

Why is #2 an Infantry unit and not a Jet Pack unit? Fire Warriors and Drones both come from the core army unit entry. What about a Kroot Squad with Kroot Hounds? Infantry and Beast all in one squad. Is it an Infantry unit or a Beast unit? Or both? I can't find any rules on how to determine the unit type of a mixed model unit.

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is this so? The IC "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes". If he joins a Type:JetPack Infantry Unit, why does the Unit type change? Surely it is a "rules purposes" is it not?

Are you claiming that an IC joining a unit can not change the properties of that unit? Also remember he is part of the unit, he does not gain the model properties of the other models in the unit, and unit type is a model property.

So when a Rule check the Unit Type of said Unit, this is not a "rules purpose"?
"counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" is quite all-encompassing.
If the Infantry Unit was an Infantry Unit, joining an IC does not change the Unit type, because it is certainly a "rules purposes"

 FlingitNow wrote:

1) an IC joined a Jet Pack Unit. Is the Unit no longer a Jet Pack Unit? Remember: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

Of course not why would it be? Also you seem off on a tangent that was discussing a Jetpack IC attached to a non-Jetpack unit.

See above and "for all rules purposes". Unit Types is a rule purpose.

As for the Jet-Pack IC joining a non-Jetpack Unit, he uses movement Rules for his own Unit Type. I might point out that this is the only exception to the "for all rules purposes" rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
I agree that we have to assume these units exist. I just don't think they're defined. I also don't think mixed units are defined?

Why is #2 an Infantry unit and not a Jet Pack unit? Fire Warriors and Drones both come from the core army unit entry. What about a Kroot Squad with Kroot Hounds? Infantry and Beast all in one squad. Is it an Infantry unit or a Beast unit? Or both? I can't find any rules on how to determine the unit type of a mixed model unit.

I definitely agree with the uncertainty.

Is there no clarification in the Codex?
"Kroot Unit
Type: Infantry"
Or similar?
(IIRC it says "Infantry Unit + Hounds are beasts"... which does not help...)

As for the Drones, the choice is from the RaW:

Unlike most other unit type categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it occurs before another category – commonly Infantry

And the rest of that paragraph, which indicates that they "follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry."
As such, you are trying to define a Unit that is:
100% Infantry
33% "Jump"

By RaW it is an Infantry Unit, and i would love to hear support from a "mixed Unit".

While looking for such, I also happened upon this:
"In addition to their unit type, some models might also be noted as being characters." It says "We’re not going to worry about characters here", but it is noted as an addition, possibly intending "added Rules" to the Types (as per the current subject of the thread)

There are a lot of rules that are broken....

Looking at the rules for jetbikes alone, an IC joined to an unit that has a type other than jetbike is not a jetbike unit.

anything else is RAI. Sometimes RAI however make more sense than RAW.

This all brings it back full circle to the Psyker issue, If you are treating a joined psyker as its own UNIT so that it can still cast powers, you should do the same for a jet pack IC

 extremefreak17 wrote:
This all brings it back full circle to the Psyker issue, If you are treating a joined psyker as its own UNIT so that it can still cast powers, you should do the same for a jet pack IC

This is a HIWPI argument. Just because you make a tweak to get one rule to work the way you want doesn't mean you automatically make the same tweak to get an entirely different rule with entirely different issues to work.

Do you have an actual rules citation to back that statement up? Do the rules actual talk about, say, Infantry units versus mixed units?

They are not defined in rules so we fall back to English. A unit consisting entirely of Jetpack models would be a Jetpack unit. A unit consisting of a mixture of units types would be a mixed unit.

So when a Rule check the Unit Type of said Unit, this is not a "rules purpose"?
"counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" is quite all-encompassing.
If the Infantry Unit was an Infantry Unit, joining an IC does not change the Unit type, because it is certainly a "rules purposes"

Units don't have unit types, models do. What if a rule said you needed to check the number of models in a unit? Would a 10 man tactical squad with an IC attached still be considered a unit of 10 models for rules purposes?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Do you have an actual rules citation to back that statement up? Do the rules actual talk about, say, Infantry units versus mixed units?

They are not defined in rules so we fall back to English. A unit consisting entirely of Jetpack models would be a Jetpack unit. A unit consisting of a mixture of units types would be a mixed unit.

So when a Rule check the Unit Type of said Unit, this is not a "rules purpose"?
"counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" is quite all-encompassing.
If the Infantry Unit was an Infantry Unit, joining an IC does not change the Unit type, because it is certainly a "rules purposes"

Units don't have unit types, models do. What if a rule said you needed to check the number of models in a unit? Would a 10 man tactical squad with an IC attached still be considered a unit of 10 models for rules purposes?

You realize that you're contradicting yourself, right?

"A unit consisting entirely of Jetpack models would be a Jetpack unit." "Unit don't have unit types, models do."

Can't have it both ways.

 Kriswall wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
This all brings it back full circle to the Psyker issue, If you are treating a joined psyker as its own UNIT so that it can still cast powers, you should do the same for a jet pack IC

This is a HIWPI argument. Just because you make a tweak to get one rule to work the way you want doesn't mean you automatically make the same tweak to get an entirely different rule with entirely different issues to work.

Actually, yes it does. You can't have it both ways. Either you accept that JSJ units keep their jump ability when in a non-JSJ unit, or you accept that psykers lose their abilities in non-psyker units.

 FlingitNow wrote:


Right so the following restrictions exist on the Thrust Move are you contenting you can ignore all of them or just some. How are you determining which?

1) You are a Jetpack UNIT (not a model with the jetpack unit type).
2) You are in the assault phase.
3) You have not charged that turn.
4) You are not locked in combat.

Please don't make up rules. At no point are there any restrictions from making the JSJ move. In fact, as have specific permisison to do so - and I have already quoted the rules.

Ffyllotek wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Right so the following restrictions exist on the Thrust Move are you contenting you can ignore all of them or just some. How are you determining which?

1) You are a Jetpack UNIT (not a model with the jetpack unit type).
2) You are in the assault phase.
3) You have not charged that turn.
4) You are not locked in combat.

Please don't make up rules. At no point are there any restrictions from making the JSJ move. In fact, as have specific permisison to do so - and I have already quoted the rules.

So you believe any unit in the fame can make a thrust move in any phase regardless of being locked in CC or having charged? That is now your stance?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Do you have an actual rules citation to back that statement up? Do the rules actual talk about, say, Infantry units versus mixed units?

They are not defined in rules so we fall back to English. A unit consisting entirely of Jetpack models would be a Jetpack unit. A unit consisting of a mixture of units types would be a mixed unit.

So when a Rule check the Unit Type of said Unit, this is not a "rules purpose"?
"counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" is quite all-encompassing.
If the Infantry Unit was an Infantry Unit, joining an IC does not change the Unit type, because it is certainly a "rules purposes"

Units don't have unit types, models do. What if a rule said you needed to check the number of models in a unit? Would a 10 man tactical squad with an IC attached still be considered a unit of 10 models for rules purposes?

You realize that you're contradicting yourself, right?

"A unit consisting entirely of Jetpack models would be a Jetpack unit." "Unit don't have unit types, models do."

Can't have it both ways.

Sorry what? Units don't have unit types, unless you have ANY rules stating that they do. Thus when the rules refer to a jetpack unit they can ONLY be referring to a unit made up of jetpack models. There is literally no other way to interpret that term.

I think the rules are hopelessly vague and poorly written.

1. Units are never defined as having a unit type in the rules. Only models have unit types.

2. The rules refer to a "Jet Pack Unit", but never define what that means. We're forced to make a judgment call. Not everyone will make the same call.

3. Assuming we allow that a unit can have a unit type, we're never told what to do with mixed units with models having an assortment of unit types.

4. The IC rules throw a wrench into the works. If we agree that we have a "Jet Pack Unit" and then add an IC, we know that the IC is to be considered a part of that unit for all rules purposes. Does the unit remain a "Jet Pack Unit" if the IC is not a Jet Pack model? We don't know. We're never told.

5. Jet Pack Thrust Moves can only be activated by a "Jet Pack Unit" and never by an individual model. We don't even really know what a "Jet Pack Unit" is. We can guess, but that's all it is... a guess.

6. If we decide that a "Jet Pack Unit" is a unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack type, then Jet Pack ICs can't Thrust unless they're in such a unit.

7. If we decide that Jet Pack models should be able to Thrust regardless of who else is in the unit, we've violated the requirement that only a "Jet Pack Unit" can perform a Thrust Move.

These are the main issues I see here.

Some of you are stating that the character follows the rules for its unit type, but is also part of the unit for all rules purposes... It sounds a little like double speak.

I say this because if the IC is allowed to follow its own unit type rules, then how is it part of the unit for all rules purposes?

It seems to me like the IC joins the unit and has to follow the units rules for movement, because units can only move as fast as their slowest model can. In the case of a JSJ Dlord, can the unit of wraiths do a JSJ move? If not then the Dlord in my opinion cannot either.

Just my two cents.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Right so the following restrictions exist on the Thrust Move are you contenting you can ignore all of them or just some. How are you determining which?

1) You are a Jetpack UNIT (not a model with the jetpack unit type).
2) You are in the assault phase.
3) You have not charged that turn.
4) You are not locked in combat.

Please don't make up rules. At no point are there any restrictions from making the JSJ move. In fact, as have specific permisison to do so - and I have already quoted the rules.

So you believe any unit in the fame can make a thrust move in any phase regardless of being locked in CC or having charged? That is now your stance?

No... those things are against the rules. I think you need to re-read the rulebook!

Ffyllotek wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Right so the following restrictions exist on the Thrust Move are you contenting you can ignore all of them or just some. How are you determining which?

1) You are a Jetpack UNIT (not a model with the jetpack unit type).
2) You are in the assault phase.
3) You have not charged that turn.
4) You are not locked in combat.

Please don't make up rules. At no point are there any restrictions from making the JSJ move. In fact, as have specific permisison to do so - and I have already quoted the rules.

So you believe any unit in the fame can make a thrust move in any phase regardless of being locked in CC or having charged? That is now your stance?

No... those things are against the rules. I think you need to re-read the rulebook!

You were the one saying there were no restrictions on when you can thrust move. So which is it?