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2015/05/11 20:47:08
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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 FlingitNow wrote:Ffyllotek wrote:
No... those things are against the rules. I think you need to re-read the rulebook!
You were the one saying there were no restrictions on when you can thrust move. So which is it?
I've said nothing of the sort. I have quoted rules, however, rules which explicitly state that IC's follow their own model type's movement rules. Don't try to build such a flimsy argument in order to contradict the rules!
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2015/05/11 20:52:45
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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 Kriswall wrote:I think the rules are hopelessly vague and poorly written.
1. Units are never defined as having a unit type in the rules. Only models have unit types.
2. The rules refer to a "Jet Pack Unit", but never define what that means. We're forced to make a judgment call. Not everyone will make the same call.
3. Assuming we allow that a unit can have a unit type, we're never told what to do with mixed units with models having an assortment of unit types.
4. The IC rules throw a wrench into the works. If we agree that we have a "Jet Pack Unit" and then add an IC, we know that the IC is to be considered a part of that unit for all rules purposes. Does the unit remain a "Jet Pack Unit" if the IC is not a Jet Pack model? We don't know. We're never told.
5. Jet Pack Thrust Moves can only be activated by a "Jet Pack Unit" and never by an individual model. We don't even really know what a "Jet Pack Unit" is. We can guess, but that's all it is... a guess.
6. If we decide that a "Jet Pack Unit" is a unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack type, then Jet Pack ICs can't Thrust unless they're in such a unit.
7. If we decide that Jet Pack models should be able to Thrust regardless of who else is in the unit, we've violated the requirement that only a "Jet Pack Unit" can perform a Thrust Move.
These are the main issues I see here.
1) correct.
2) with no rules definition we fall to English. A jet pack unit must refer to a unit of jet pack models. Thus all the models must be jetpack.
3) We shouldn't then allow units to have unit types. However mixed units cause all sorts of issues across multiple rules most notably PE and the Psychic phase mess.
4) We are fine with an IC changing a unit of 10 models into a unit of 11 models so why does it cause a problem that an IC changes a jet pack unit to a mixed unit? Note these are not game defined terms just short hand English used to describe the unit types of the models in a unit.
5) As above there is only one way to interpret that phrase lacking an in game definition.
6) Correct and if we decide this we are following RaW.
7) True and if we do that we are breaking RaW. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ffyllotek wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Ffyllotek wrote:
No... those things are against the rules. I think you need to re-read the rulebook!
You were the one saying there were no restrictions on when you can thrust move. So which is it?
I've said nothing of the sort. I have quoted rules, however, rules which explicitly state that IC's follow their own model type's movement rules. Don't try to build such a flimsy argument in order to contradict the rules!
Nice cut of your own post to hide the lie there.
Ffyllotek wrote:Please don't make up rules. At no point are there any restrictions from making the JSJ move.
So which is it? Were you lying then or are you lying now?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/11 20:59:27
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2015/05/11 23:20:14
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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I'm not really going to engage in that sort of conversation, sorry. I cut out a bit because multi-quoting is bad ettiquette. As is calling someone a liar. Thank you, good luck in your games.
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2015/05/12 07:32:03
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Ffyllotek wrote:
I'm not really going to engage in that sort of conversation, sorry. I cut out a bit because multi-quoting is bad ettiquette. As is calling someone a liar. Thank you, good luck in your games.
When you say:
"At no point are there any restrictions from making the JSJ move."
And then two posts later claim to have never said that what else is that? It is not poor ettiquette nor impolite to point that out. However saying something and then lying about that is impolite and does not help the discussion. So please answer the question. Were you lying when you said there were no restrictions on dong a JSJ or were you lying when you said you had said no such thing?
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2015/05/12 11:17:02
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Confessor Of Sins
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Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Some of you are stating that the character follows the rules for its unit type, but is also part of the unit for all rules purposes... It sounds a little like double speak. I say this because if the IC is allowed to follow its own unit type rules, then how is it part of the unit for all rules purposes? It seems to me like the IC joins the unit and has to follow the units rules for movement, because units can only move as fast as their slowest model can. In the case of a JSJ Dlord, can the unit of wraiths do a JSJ move? If not then the Dlord in my opinion cannot either. Just my two cents.
It's not double speak because that's actually the only exception to that rule that exists: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." = For any and all rules he's part of the Unit BUT he also has Character rules. These include "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type" FlingitNow wrote: Kriswall wrote:I think the rules are hopelessly vague and poorly written. 1. Units are never defined as having a unit type in the rules. Only models have unit types. 2. The rules refer to a "Jet Pack Unit", but never define what that means. We're forced to make a judgment call. Not everyone will make the same call. 3. Assuming we allow that a unit can have a unit type, we're never told what to do with mixed units with models having an assortment of unit types. 4. The IC rules throw a wrench into the works. If we agree that we have a "Jet Pack Unit" and then add an IC, we know that the IC is to be considered a part of that unit for all rules purposes. Does the unit remain a "Jet Pack Unit" if the IC is not a Jet Pack model? We don't know. We're never told. 5. Jet Pack Thrust Moves can only be activated by a "Jet Pack Unit" and never by an individual model. We don't even really know what a "Jet Pack Unit" is. We can guess, but that's all it is... a guess. 6. If we decide that a "Jet Pack Unit" is a unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack type, then Jet Pack ICs can't Thrust unless they're in such a unit. 7. If we decide that Jet Pack models should be able to Thrust regardless of who else is in the unit, we've violated the requirement that only a "Jet Pack Unit" can perform a Thrust Move. These are the main issues I see here.
1) correct. 2) with no rules definition we fall to English. A jet pack unit must refer to a unit of jet pack models. Thus all the models must be jetpack. 3) We shouldn't then allow units to have unit types. However mixed units cause all sorts of issues across multiple rules most notably PE and the Psychic phase mess. 4) We are fine with an IC changing a unit of 10 models into a unit of 11 models so why does it cause a problem that an IC changes a jet pack unit to a mixed unit? Note these are not game defined terms just short hand English used to describe the unit types of the models in a unit. 5) As above there is only one way to interpret that phrase lacking an in game definition. 6) Correct and if we decide this we are following RaW. 7) True and if we do that we are breaking RaW.
1) Agreed. 2) Nice interpretation there, the same one i make but you suddenly call out when it ruins your argument: FlingitNow wrote:Units don't have unit types, models do. What if a rule said you needed to check the number of models in a unit? Would a 10 man tactical squad with an IC attached still be considered a unit of 10 models for rules purposes?
3) Well i guess that's your choice... Clearly no RaW has anything about "mixed Units". Seems like everyone is guessing here, what happened to the "RaW argument"? 4) Because things like "Jump Unit" ARE referenced in the rulebook. They are an existing entity and they are Rules. They may not be defined, but they are a Rule. As such they are RaW. Is a Rule a Rule purpose? Hard to make it more simple a question.... 5)Indeed, same assumption again: a "Jet Pack Unit" most probably refers to a Unit containing only Jet Pack models. 6) So the definition of the Unit type has changed for the purpose of the Thrust Move? So, for the purpose of a Rule, adding an IC has modified the Unit? I think some RaW might disagree with that assertion: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" 7) Correct, only Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/12 11:17:30
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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2015/05/12 12:58:36
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Talos - you can follow the rules for your type just fine. The rule for the unit type "JetPack (X) " is that the *unit* must elect to make a thrust move
So, to follow the rule, the unit must elect to do so. we know the IC is not a unit by themselves, so the unit entire must evoke the rule. Only the unit entire cannot do so, so the rule cannot be evoked.
All rules followed. None broken
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2015/05/12 16:08:36
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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The same can be said for the psychic units then. In both cases we have no indication that IC's loose or gain abilities. If you advocate for psychers still casting then you advocate for JSJ IC's being allowed to do so.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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2015/05/12 17:06:00
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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No. As pointed out, the psyker rules are more broken than that, and are not comparable. So, don't.
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2015/05/12 17:07:56
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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In your opinion, just as the above, don't present them as fact.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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2015/05/12 17:09:17
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Present what as fact? The rules that were clearly followed and factual, or the fact that the psyker rules are broken in more comprehensive ways than your simplistic equivalence?
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2015/05/12 17:11:25
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Both.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Simply put. As soon as you make a judgement or assumption on what is being said you are stating an opinion. Without rule backup that's all it can be. Per the rules of the forum back it up with a rule or mark your posts HIWPI.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/12 17:20:54
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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2015/05/12 17:46:20
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Gravmyr wrote:Both.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Simply put. As soon as you make a judgement or assumption on what is being said you are stating an opinion. Without rule backup that's all it can be. Per the rules of the forum back it up with a rule or mark your posts HIWPI.
The Psychic phase not really working is a known issue. If you participate in a rules forum, you likely know this. If you don't know the particulars, feel free to do a rudimentary search. I recommend searching for "psychic phase" and "broken" together.
Creating a house rule to correct what is perceived as one broken situation does not necessarily mean you will implement the same house rule to correct an entirely different situation. Claiming that you're required to be consistent in how house rules are applied is simply not true.
The IC in a Jet Pack Unit issue may cause some confusion as we bicker about what "Jet Pack Unit" means and how to resolve mixed unit types in one unit. What never happens, though, is a hard stop. The worst case is that a Jet Pack IC can't Thrust or that a non-Jet Pack IC gets a free Thrust. This might break what you or I think of as RaI, but never causes the game to come to a grinding halt. The Psychic phase rules can cause the game to come to a grinding halt. As mentioned above, if you want to know why or how, do a quick search. This thread is about Jet Pack issues and rehashing the Psychic phase situation isn't really relevant or particularly helpful.
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2015/05/12 18:14:16
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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I notice you did not in fact address the post where I put this forth. If you had looked at my history you would also know I do participate in this very forum heavily. Choosing not to even look at my post count shows a lack of interest in actually researching easily obtainable information, I recommend clicking on my name.
BTW the comparison I made was not in fact a house rule to house rule. It was a rule to look at in comparison to this situation. The rest of the rules may be poor and/or broken in the Psychic information portions but what I pointed to above was not.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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2015/05/12 18:28:29
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Gravmyr wrote:I notice you did not in fact address the post where I put this forth. If you had looked at my history you would also know I do participate in this very forum heavily. Choosing not to even look at my post count shows a lack of interest in actually researching easily obtainable information, I recommend clicking on my name.
BTW the comparison I made was not in fact a house rule to house rule. It was a rule to look at in comparison to this situation. The rest of the rules may be poor and/or broken in the Psychic information portions but what I pointed to above was not.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, dude. You have 1,215 posts as of this writing. I'm not interested in doing extensive research into your posting habits to try to get a feel for your understanding of the Warhammer 40k 7th Edition Psychic phase. I have better things to do with my time.
Fact... the Psychic phase doesn't work as likely intended. Any decision we make to correct this is a house rule.
Fact... Jet Pack Unit is never defined anywhere in the rules. Any definition we apply to correct this is a house rule.
Comparing the two situations is therefore comparing a house rule to a house rule.
Saying that Psycker ICs can still use psychic powers is a house rule since the rules as written don't actually allow this when the IC is in a 'non psyker unit'. Saying that a Jet Pack IC can still make a Thrust move when he's in a 'non jet pack unit' would also be a house rule.
I'm inclined to say yes to the Psyker one, but no to the Jet Pack one. This is because I'm factoring what I believe is RaI into my decision. I believe GW intended for Psyker ICs to be able to use their powers. I'm also inclined to believe that GW intended for Jet Pack ICs to simple walk alongside their Infantry comrades when joined to such a unit. Hence, I say yes to ICs cast psychic powers, but no to ICs using thrust moves.
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2015/05/12 18:44:15
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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I Play It as the basis along with you being allowed the choice to move only some models of a unit in the movement phase to allow weapons firing at full BS or different speeds to allow multiple weapons to fire at full BS, for allowing the unit with a Jet unit to do so. If you do not what you are saying is that in this case the fact they did not spell it out entirely was intentional but in all other instances it is up for interpretation intentionally.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/12 18:46:53
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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2015/05/12 18:51:19
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Gravmyr wrote:I Play It as the basis along with you being allowed the choice to move only some models of a unit in the movement phase to allow weapons firing at full BS or different speeds to allow multiple weapons to fire at full BS, for allowing the unit with a Jet unit to do so. If you do not what you are saying is that in this case the fact they did not spell it out entirely was intentional but in all other instances it is up for interpretation intentionally.
I have no idea what this means. Not being mean, but well constructed sentences go a long way towards making your point easier to sell.
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2015/05/12 19:44:18
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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BlackTalos wrote: 1) Agreed.
2) Nice interpretation there, the same one i make but you suddenly call out when it ruins your argument:
FlingitNow wrote:
Units don't have unit types, models do. What if a rule said you needed to check the number of models in a unit? Would a 10 man tactical squad with an IC attached still be considered a unit of 10 models for rules purposes?
3) Well i guess that's your choice... Clearly no RaW has anything about "mixed Units". Seems like everyone is guessing here, what happened to the "RaW argument"?
4) Because things like "Jump Unit" ARE referenced in the rulebook. They are an existing entity and they are Rules. They may not be defined, but they are a Rule. As such they are RaW. Is a Rule a Rule purpose? Hard to make it more simple a question....
5)Indeed, same assumption again: a "Jet Pack Unit" most probably refers to a Unit containing only Jet Pack models.
6) So the definition of the Unit type has changed for the purpose of the Thrust Move? So, for the purpose of a Rule, adding an IC has modified the Unit?
I think some RaW might disagree with that assertion: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"
7) Correct, only Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type.
2) My quote is entirely in line with my statement. Not sure what you mean there?
3) Mixed unit is a thing it is not a defined term, neither is Jet Pack unit. Unit types are model properties so a Jetpack unit must refer to a unit of models with the Jet Pack type and thus a mixed unit is a unit of mixed unit types. This is just how English works.
4) Yes jump units are referred to in the rules. Part of a unit does not mean you can not change that units properties. See the quote above you referenced for point 2.
5) Not assumption just how English works.
6) No again with the claim that a unit of 10 models with an IC attached is a unit of 10 models. It is not it is now a unit of 11 models. Just as a unit of jetpack models is no longer a unit of jetpack models when you add a non-jetpack model to it.
7) No everyone follows the rules for their unit type.
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2015/05/12 19:58:33
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Rampaging Carnifex
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If a model has Unit Type: Jetpack then wouldn't that MODEL be a Jetpack Unit? Just because it has 'Unit' in the name, does it have to refer to the BRB definition of 'group of models is a unit' (I'm paraphrasing here)?
These are questions the BRB doesn't answer. But if you need a 'Jetpack Unit' to activate the jump move and a MODEL has the 'Unit Type: Jetpack' then it would be logical to assume that the MODEL meets the requirements for a jump move.
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2015/05/12 20:15:19
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Models and units are not interchangeable terms. A jetpack unit is not a Jetpack Model,
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2015/05/12 20:36:36
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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FlingitNow wrote:Models and units are not interchangeable terms. A jetpack unit is not a Jetpack Model,
Agreed. It's very weird that Models have a Unit Type and not a Model Type, but such is life.
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2015/05/12 20:40:24
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Kriswall wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Models and units are not interchangeable terms. A jetpack unit is not a Jetpack Model,
Agreed. It's very weird that Models have a Unit Type and not a Model Type, but such is life.
Agreed much like the Allied Detachment a poorly chosen name often leads people to make false assumptions.
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2015/05/12 20:54:05
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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FlingitNow wrote: Kriswall wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Models and units are not interchangeable terms. A jetpack unit is not a Jetpack Model,
Agreed. It's very weird that Models have a Unit Type and not a Model Type, but such is life.
Agreed much like the Allied Detachment a poorly chosen name often leads people to make false assumptions.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. GW needs to employ a quality copy editor. A good copy editor would never had allowed this to hit publication.
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2015/05/12 21:17:15
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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Kriswall wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. GW needs to employ a quality copy editor. A good copy editor would never had allowed this to hit publication.
First they'd have to start caring about what they wrote. 
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 blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
 the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
 Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
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2015/05/12 21:39:28
Subject: Re:Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/12 22:13:02
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2015/05/12 21:43:25
Subject: Re:Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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It is as I've proven in this thread. However you will get the wrong answer if you ignore the actual rule in question like you have done...
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2015/05/12 21:44:40
Subject: Re:Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote:
It is as I've proven in this thread. However you will get the wrong answer if you ignore the actual rule in question like you have done...
Post the rule.
My rules provide direct answers to relevant questions.
Does the unit include models that move at different speeds? Yes it does.
Are any of the models characters? Yes, one is an IC which is also a character.
Does the IC follow the unit for all rule purposes? No, the rule is clear that he still follows the character rules which provide specific exception to movement.
So, yes, you follow these relevant rules. All of these rules provide specific allowances. The Destroyer Lord gets to jet pack move and thrust move while attached to a unit of beasts since character rules provide specific allowance to do so. The only restriction is that he has to maintain unit coherency as is clearly outlined in the above rules.
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This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2015/05/12 22:12:01
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2015/05/12 22:16:38
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Check the full "Thrust Move" and when you can do it...
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2015/05/12 22:22:32
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to follow the movement rules of a model of its type. Thrust move is a move.
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2015/05/12 22:35:23
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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col_impact wrote:
As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to follow the movement rules of a model of its type. Thrust move is a move.
Models don't activate thrust moves ever. Units do. When the Destroyer Lord is joined to another unit, he is no longer a unit in and of himself, but instead counts as a part of the joined unit. You need to show evidence that the new unit he has joined has permission to perform a thrust move.
Remember that the thrust move is a rule associated with Jet Pack UNITS and has absolutely nothing to do with Characters.
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2015/05/12 22:40:23
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Kriswall wrote:col_impact wrote:
As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to follow the movement rules of a model of its type. Thrust move is a move.
Models don't activate thrust moves ever. Units do. When the Destroyer Lord is joined to another unit, he is no longer a unit in and of himself, but instead counts as a part of the joined unit. You need to show evidence that the new unit he has joined has permission to perform a thrust move.
Remember that the thrust move is a rule associated with Jet Pack UNITS and has absolutely nothing to do with Characters.
As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to move as Jet Pack Type in a unit of mixed models. The rules are clear and I have traced permission.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/12 22:41:06
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