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col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Check the full "Thrust Move" and when you can do it...

As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to follow the movement rules of a model of its type. Thrust move is a move.

Models don't activate thrust moves ever. Units do. When the Destroyer Lord is joined to another unit, he is no longer a unit in and of himself, but instead counts as a part of the joined unit. You need to show evidence that the new unit he has joined has permission to perform a thrust move.

Remember that the thrust move is a rule associated with Jet Pack UNITS and has absolutely nothing to do with Characters.

Spoiler:

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to move as Jet Pack Type in a unit of mixed models. The rules are clear and I have traced permission.

The Thrust Move is no more a "movement rule" than declaring a charge is. Sure, they both incorporate an element of movement, but neither occurs during the Movement phase. Unless I misunderstand you. You know what, I have a good way of telling whether or not you're willing to stick to your theory...

Player turn 2...
1. A unit of Tau Crisis Suits deep strikes onto the table and lands without scatter. They land approximately 3 inches away from an enemy unit.
2. A Crisis Commander then moves within coherency of the Crisis Suits, joining them at the end of their Movement phase.

Can the Crisis Commander declare a charge against an enemy unit despite being in an overall unit that can't declare a charge due to having come in from Reserves? Per your own argument, Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type. Declaring a charge is an form of movement since you're told to move the model. The Crisis Commander didn't come in from Reserves that turn. Surely, he can declare a charge somehow...

Clearly not. This is ludicrous. Declaring a charge is a unit level action and the overall unit came in from Reserves that turn. EXACTLY the same way that declaring a Thrust Move is a unit level action and a Destroyer Lord joined to a unit of Wraiths isn't a Jet Pack Unit and therefore can't declare a Thrust Move.

You have demonstrated that Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type. You have yet to demonstrate either the overall unit having permission to perform a thrust move (only jet pack units can do this) or the individual IC model have permission to perform a thrust move (again, only jet pack units can do this... not jet pack models). Try again?

Your confusion stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the Thrust Move. The thrust move is a movement rule that happens to occur in the assault phase.




The rules specifically tell us to have characters follow the movements rules of their type. Skyborne and Thrust Move are movement rules for the Jet Pack type. The Destroyer Lord is a Jet Pack type.

Permission is clear. Clear is permission.

Try again?

col_impact wrote:
Your confusion stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the Thrust Move. The thrust move is a movement rule that happens to occur in the assault phase.

Spoiler:

MOVEMENT
Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs (see below).

SKYBORNE
When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. Jet Pack models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.

THRUST MOVE
A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase.

The rules specifically tell us to have characters follow the movements rules of their type. Skyborne and Thrust Move are movement rules for the Jet Pack type. The Destroyer Lord is a Jet Pack type.

Permission is clear. Clear is permission.

Try again?

So, to be clear, you don't care that the rules grant the Thrust Move permission to a UNIT and not a MODEL, but have decided to use a rule dealing with Characters and movement to arbitrarily grant said permission at a model level? I just want to be clear. Do you have any rules quotes that modify the Thrust Move permission from a unit level permission to a model level permission? If not, we're done here. We can talk about Characters and movement rules until the end of time. You have yet to demonstrate that an individual model, when part of a larger unit EVER has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. The Thrust Move simply isn't available to models. It's only available to units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another way of asking... if you think Characters can initiate Thrust Moves... give me a real world example. The rules don't support such a situation.

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Your confusion stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the Thrust Move. The thrust move is a movement rule that happens to occur in the assault phase.

Spoiler:

MOVEMENT
Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs (see below).

SKYBORNE
When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. Jet Pack models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.

THRUST MOVE
A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase.

The rules specifically tell us to have characters follow the movements rules of their type. Skyborne and Thrust Move are movement rules for the Jet Pack type. The Destroyer Lord is a Jet Pack type.

Permission is clear. Clear is permission.

Try again?

So, to be clear, you don't care that the rules grant the Thrust Move permission to a UNIT and not a MODEL, but have decided to use a rule dealing with Characters and movement to arbitrarily grant said permission at a model level? I just want to be clear. Do you have any rules quotes that modify the Thrust Move permission from a unit level permission to a model level permission? If not, we're done here. We can talk about Characters and movement rules until the end of time. You have yet to demonstrate that an individual model, when part of a larger unit EVER has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. The Thrust Move simply isn't available to models. It's only available to units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another way of asking... if you think Characters can initiate Thrust Moves... give me a real world example. The rules don't support such a situation.

The character rules provide specific allowance for a character to move according to its type.

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

This rule is a specific allowance. And it's pretty darn clear. And it's RAW.

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Your confusion stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the Thrust Move. The thrust move is a movement rule that happens to occur in the assault phase.

Spoiler:

MOVEMENT
Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs (see below).

SKYBORNE
When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. Jet Pack models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.

THRUST MOVE
A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase.

The rules specifically tell us to have characters follow the movements rules of their type. Skyborne and Thrust Move are movement rules for the Jet Pack type. The Destroyer Lord is a Jet Pack type.

Permission is clear. Clear is permission.

Try again?

So, to be clear, you don't care that the rules grant the Thrust Move permission to a UNIT and not a MODEL, but have decided to use a rule dealing with Characters and movement to arbitrarily grant said permission at a model level? I just want to be clear. Do you have any rules quotes that modify the Thrust Move permission from a unit level permission to a model level permission? If not, we're done here. We can talk about Characters and movement rules until the end of time. You have yet to demonstrate that an individual model, when part of a larger unit EVER has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. The Thrust Move simply isn't available to models. It's only available to units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another way of asking... if you think Characters can initiate Thrust Moves... give me a real world example. The rules don't support such a situation.

The character rules provide specific allowance for a character to move according to its type.

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

This rule is a specific allowance. And it's pretty darn clear.

I agree that the rule is pretty darn clear. Now, please quote the rule that gives a Character MODEL permission to perform a Thrust Move. It has to be somewhere OTHER than the Jet Pack section. The Jet Pack section only gives Jet Pack UNITS permission to perform a Thrust Move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the rule said "Model with the Jet Pack unit type may perform a Thrust Move..." you'd have a slam dunk. The rules don't say that. This isn't a model permission and therefore not something a Character is ever allowed to do on his own.

This rule effectively changes Jet Pack unit to Jet Pack [character] as far as applying the movement rules of Jet Pack to the character. The character rule specifically allows characters to follow the movement rules for models of their type. The character rules allow specific ways for a unit to be in certain circumstances more specifically handled as character + unit.


A question for you: A Necron Overlord attaches itself to a Jet Pack unit. Does it gain the ability to do a Thrust Move which you are granting at the unit level? The vanilla Overlord is part of a Jet Pack unit and would appear by your logic to have acquired a jet pack for free. If the vanilla Necron Overlord cannot do a Thrust Move please show why it cannot.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

This rule effectively changes Jet Pack unit to Jet Pack [character]. The character rule specifically allows characters to follow the movement rule for models of their type.


A question for you: A Necron Overlord attaches itself to a Jet Pack unit. Does it gain the ability to do a Thrust Move which you are granting at the unit level? The vanilla Overlord is part of a Jet Pack unit and would appear by your logic to have acquired a jet pack for free. If the vanilla Necron Overlord cannot do a Thrust Move please show why it cannot.

"Jet Pack Unit" is undefined in the rules. However, I believe that most people consider a Jet Pack Unit to be a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. If you subscribe to that interpretation, then no, the vanilla Overlord would not be able to participate in a Thrust Move since his unit wouldn't be a Jet Pack Unit and therefore wouldn't be able to perform one. If you believe that a vanilla Overlord joined to, say, a unit of Destroyers results in a Jet Pack Unit, then yes, he would be able to participate in the Thrust Move when the Jet Pack Unit he's a part of (for all rule purposes) performs one.

I'm in the camp that believes a Jet Pack Unit is a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. That seems to me like the most likely interpretation. I think most people are in this camp, based on the threads I see around these parts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc." How exactly are you using this to change the word Unit to Model? That seems like an arbitrary edit. "Models of their type", i.e. Jet Pack Models don't ever have permission to perform a Thrust Move, so why would Jet Pack Characters? Only UNITS have this permission.

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

This rule effectively changes Jet Pack unit to Jet Pack [character]. The character rule specifically allows characters to follow the movement rule for models of their type.


A question for you: A Necron Overlord attaches itself to a Jet Pack unit. Does it gain the ability to do a Thrust Move which you are granting at the unit level? The vanilla Overlord is part of a Jet Pack unit and would appear by your logic to have acquired a jet pack for free. If the vanilla Necron Overlord cannot do a Thrust Move please show why it cannot.

"Jet Pack Unit" is undefined in the rules. However, I believe that most people consider a Jet Pack Unit to be a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. If you subscribe to that interpretation, then no, the vanilla Overlord would not be able to participate in a Thrust Move since his unit wouldn't be a Jet Pack Unit and therefore wouldn't be able to perform one. If you believe that a vanilla Overlord joined to, say, a unit of Destroyers results in a Jet Pack Unit, then yes, he would be able to participate in the Thrust Move when the Jet Pack Unit he's a part of (for all rule purposes) performs one.

I'm in the camp that believes a Jet Pack Unit is a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. That seems to me like the most likely interpretation. I think most people are in this camp, based on the threads I see around these parts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc." How exactly are you using this to change the word Unit to Model? That seems like an arbitrary edit. "Models of their type", i.e. Jet Pack Models don't ever have permission to perform a Thrust Move, so why would Jet Pack Characters? Only UNITS have this permission.

There should be no 2 camps. The rules are very clear here. The rules are very clear that characters follow the movement rules for their type. So an overlord attached to some destroyers is going to mess up the movement of the destroyers because of the injunction to always maintain unit coherency. Very clear.


Characters follow the rules for the unit, except they also are required to follow the character rules. The character rules tell them to follow the movement rules for the models of their type. So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency.

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

This rule effectively changes Jet Pack unit to Jet Pack [character]. The character rule specifically allows characters to follow the movement rule for models of their type.


A question for you: A Necron Overlord attaches itself to a Jet Pack unit. Does it gain the ability to do a Thrust Move which you are granting at the unit level? The vanilla Overlord is part of a Jet Pack unit and would appear by your logic to have acquired a jet pack for free. If the vanilla Necron Overlord cannot do a Thrust Move please show why it cannot.

"Jet Pack Unit" is undefined in the rules. However, I believe that most people consider a Jet Pack Unit to be a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. If you subscribe to that interpretation, then no, the vanilla Overlord would not be able to participate in a Thrust Move since his unit wouldn't be a Jet Pack Unit and therefore wouldn't be able to perform one. If you believe that a vanilla Overlord joined to, say, a unit of Destroyers results in a Jet Pack Unit, then yes, he would be able to participate in the Thrust Move when the Jet Pack Unit he's a part of (for all rule purposes) performs one.

I'm in the camp that believes a Jet Pack Unit is a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. That seems to me like the most likely interpretation. I think most people are in this camp, based on the threads I see around these parts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc." How exactly are you using this to change the word Unit to Model? That seems like an arbitrary edit. "Models of their type", i.e. Jet Pack Models don't ever have permission to perform a Thrust Move, so why would Jet Pack Characters? Only UNITS have this permission.

Characters follow the rules for the unit, except they also are required to follow the character rules. The character rules tell them to follow the movement rules for the models of their type. So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency.

Spoiler:

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

I hear what you're saying. Characters follow the rules for MODELS of their type. Please cite the specific rules quote that allows a Jet Pack MODEL to perform a Thrust Move.

And...

"So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency."

...this is your interpretation and isn't actually backed up in any way, shape or form by the rules as written. Nowhere in the RaW does it tell us to treat Characters as a unit all to themselves for movement purposes. If you disagree, page and paragraph giving explicit permission to treat the Character as a unit when he's already part of another unit.

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

This rule effectively changes Jet Pack unit to Jet Pack [character]. The character rule specifically allows characters to follow the movement rule for models of their type.


A question for you: A Necron Overlord attaches itself to a Jet Pack unit. Does it gain the ability to do a Thrust Move which you are granting at the unit level? The vanilla Overlord is part of a Jet Pack unit and would appear by your logic to have acquired a jet pack for free. If the vanilla Necron Overlord cannot do a Thrust Move please show why it cannot.

"Jet Pack Unit" is undefined in the rules. However, I believe that most people consider a Jet Pack Unit to be a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. If you subscribe to that interpretation, then no, the vanilla Overlord would not be able to participate in a Thrust Move since his unit wouldn't be a Jet Pack Unit and therefore wouldn't be able to perform one. If you believe that a vanilla Overlord joined to, say, a unit of Destroyers results in a Jet Pack Unit, then yes, he would be able to participate in the Thrust Move when the Jet Pack Unit he's a part of (for all rule purposes) performs one.

I'm in the camp that believes a Jet Pack Unit is a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. That seems to me like the most likely interpretation. I think most people are in this camp, based on the threads I see around these parts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc." How exactly are you using this to change the word Unit to Model? That seems like an arbitrary edit. "Models of their type", i.e. Jet Pack Models don't ever have permission to perform a Thrust Move, so why would Jet Pack Characters? Only UNITS have this permission.

Characters follow the rules for the unit, except they also are required to follow the character rules. The character rules tell them to follow the movement rules for the models of their type. So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency.

Spoiler:

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

I hear what you're saying. Characters follow the rules for MODELS of their type. Please cite the specific rules quote that allows a Jet Pack MODEL to perform a Thrust Move.

And...

"So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency."

...this is your interpretation and isn't actually backed up in any way, shape or form by the rules as written. Nowhere in the RaW does it tell us to treat Characters as a unit all to themselves for movement purposes. If you disagree, page and paragraph giving explicit permission to treat the Character as a unit when he's already part of another unit.

It cannot be any clearer than this rule which specifically tells you to treat a character with regards to moving as separate from the unit according to its type. I have provided a clear chain of permission and a clear reading of the rules which makes it clear that a vanilla overlord will never acquire jet pack movement no matter which camp of interpretation of 'unit' you are on. The rules specifically lay out how to handle Independent Characters with different modes of movement than the unit they are in. The only restriction is that they need to maintain unit coherency. Also, since ICs can be units all their own, you need to show where in the case of movement that unit status is being taken away since the character rules would retain their independent movement rules which tell them to follow the movement rules for their type and just that you have to maintain unit coherency (or you leave the unit - imagine that!).

I have rules charting a clear resolution.

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

This rule effectively changes Jet Pack unit to Jet Pack [character]. The character rule specifically allows characters to follow the movement rule for models of their type.


A question for you: A Necron Overlord attaches itself to a Jet Pack unit. Does it gain the ability to do a Thrust Move which you are granting at the unit level? The vanilla Overlord is part of a Jet Pack unit and would appear by your logic to have acquired a jet pack for free. If the vanilla Necron Overlord cannot do a Thrust Move please show why it cannot.

"Jet Pack Unit" is undefined in the rules. However, I believe that most people consider a Jet Pack Unit to be a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. If you subscribe to that interpretation, then no, the vanilla Overlord would not be able to participate in a Thrust Move since his unit wouldn't be a Jet Pack Unit and therefore wouldn't be able to perform one. If you believe that a vanilla Overlord joined to, say, a unit of Destroyers results in a Jet Pack Unit, then yes, he would be able to participate in the Thrust Move when the Jet Pack Unit he's a part of (for all rule purposes) performs one.

I'm in the camp that believes a Jet Pack Unit is a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. That seems to me like the most likely interpretation. I think most people are in this camp, based on the threads I see around these parts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc." How exactly are you using this to change the word Unit to Model? That seems like an arbitrary edit. "Models of their type", i.e. Jet Pack Models don't ever have permission to perform a Thrust Move, so why would Jet Pack Characters? Only UNITS have this permission.

Characters follow the rules for the unit, except they also are required to follow the character rules. The character rules tell them to follow the movement rules for the models of their type. So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency.

Spoiler:

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

I hear what you're saying. Characters follow the rules for MODELS of their type. Please cite the specific rules quote that allows a Jet Pack MODEL to perform a Thrust Move.

And...

"So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency."

...this is your interpretation and isn't actually backed up in any way, shape or form by the rules as written. Nowhere in the RaW does it tell us to treat Characters as a unit all to themselves for movement purposes. If you disagree, page and paragraph giving explicit permission to treat the Character as a unit when he's already part of another unit.

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

It cannot be any clearer than this rule which specifically tells you to treat a character with regards to moving as separate from the unit according to its type. I have provided a clear chain of permission and a clear reading of the rules which makes it clear that a vanilla overlord will never acquire jet pack movement no matter which camp of interpretation of 'unit' you are on. The rules specifically lay out how to handle Independent Characters with different modes of movement than the unit they are in. The only restriction is that they need to maintain unit coherency. Also, since ICs can be units all their own, you need to show where in the case of movement that unit status is being taken away since the character rules would retain their independent movement rules which tell them to follow the movement rules for their type and just that you have to maintain unit coherency (or you leave the unit - imagine that!).

I have rules charting a clear resolution.

You have rules telling me that a Jet Pack CHARACTER follows the movement rules assigned to Jet Pack MODELS. You have yet to demonstrate either...

1. that a Jet Pack Character in a unit composed of other non-Jet Pack Models should be considered a Jet Pack Unit himself despite being part of another larger unit.
2. that Jet Pack Models can INITIATE a Thrust Move... an action granted explicitly to UNITS only per the core rules.

I 100% grant that Characters follow the rules for Models of their type. I 100% reject that this automatically means they ALSO gain all of the abilities associated with UNITS of the same type.

You keep repeating the same thing, and yet you arent actually proving anything.


When the character is a unit in and of himself, he can thrust. Joined to any other type of unit, he is no longer a jet pack unit and thus cannot thrust move.

Thats the clear cut and dry. There is no other way to interpret this.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
You keep repeating the same thing, and yet you arent actually proving anything.


When the character is a unit in and of himself, he can thrust. Joined to any other type of unit, he is no longer a jet pack unit and thus cannot thrust move.

Thats the clear cut and dry. There is no other way to interpret this.

And to be 100% crystal clear, because I think this is the part that a lot of people are getting wrong...

When a Character or IC with the Jet Pack unit type is alone in a Unit by himself, he still doesn't have permission to initiate a Thrust Move. Instead, the UNIT he's in (that happens to contain only one model) has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. As soon as the "Jet Pack Unit" initiates the Thrust Move, all models in said unit are able to do the whole move 2D6" move thing.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
You keep repeating the same thing, and yet you arent actually proving anything.


When the character is a unit in and of himself, he can thrust. Joined to any other type of unit, he is no longer a jet pack unit and thus cannot thrust move.

Thats the clear cut and dry. There is no other way to interpret this.

And to be 100% crystal clear, because I think this is the part that a lot of people are getting wrong...

When a Character or IC with the Jet Pack unit type is alone in a Unit by himself, he still doesn't have permission to initiate a Thrust Move. Instead, the UNIT he's in (that happens to contain only one model) has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. As soon as the "Jet Pack Unit" initiates the Thrust Move, all models in said unit are able to do the whole move 2D6" move thing.

You are failing to apply this rule. What makes you think you can skip this rule? Skipping rules obviously violates any sense of RAW.



That rule tells us unequivocally to follow the movement rules for jet pack type for the Destroyer Lord. Are you doing that in your reading of the rules? No. The rules specifically tells us to follow the movement rules for jet pack type which includes Skyborne and Thrust move.

Are you having trouble reconciling character in a unit? These rules combined makes it clear that for movement purposes you treat a unit with different model types as a mixed unit. The characters moves according to their types and the other models move according to their type.





In other words, with regards to character rules, the Independent Character does not count as part of the unit for all rules purposes. The character rules contain a special exemption for movement rules. The Destroyer Lord is told specifically to follow the movement rules for its [unit] type. Specific overwrites general rules.

You are failing to apply this rule. You are not allowed to skip rules. This rules tells you to follow the movement rules for Jet Pack type in the case of the Destroyer Lord. Show how you apply this rule.

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
You keep repeating the same thing, and yet you arent actually proving anything.


When the character is a unit in and of himself, he can thrust. Joined to any other type of unit, he is no longer a jet pack unit and thus cannot thrust move.

Thats the clear cut and dry. There is no other way to interpret this.

And to be 100% crystal clear, because I think this is the part that a lot of people are getting wrong...

When a Character or IC with the Jet Pack unit type is alone in a Unit by himself, he still doesn't have permission to initiate a Thrust Move. Instead, the UNIT he's in (that happens to contain only one model) has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. As soon as the "Jet Pack Unit" initiates the Thrust Move, all models in said unit are able to do the whole move 2D6" move thing.

You are failing to apply this rule. What makes you think you can skip this rule? Skipping rules obviously violates any sense of RAW.

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

That rule tells us unequivocally to follow the movement rules for jet pack type for the Destroyer Lord. Are you doing that in your reading of the rules? No. The rules specifically tells us to follow the movement rules for jet pack type which includes Skyborne and Thrust move.

Are you having trouble reconciling character in a unit? These rules combined makes it clear that for movement purposes you treat a unit with different model types as a mixed unit. The characters moves according to their types and the other models move according to their type.

Spoiler:

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

In other words, with regards to character rules, the Independent Character does not count as part of the unit for all rules purposes. The character rules contain a special exemption for movement rules. The Destroyer Lord is told specifically to follow the movement rules for its [unit] type. Specific overwrites general rules.

You are failing to apply this rule. You are not allowed to skip rules. This rules tells you to follow the movement rules for Jet Pack type in the case of the Destroyer Lord. Show how you apply this rule.

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.

Show permission for anything other than a Jet Pack UNIT to activate a Thrust Move.

You can keep posting over and over and over that Character follow the movement rules for models of their type. I agree with you on this point. You can stop posting the same thing ad nauseum.

Jet Pack MODELs don't have permission to activate a Thrust Move. Jet Pack Infantry Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type. Awesome! Agreed. Jet Pack Infantry non-Characters DON'T HAVE PERMISSION to activate a Thrust Move. Therefore, Jet Pack Infantry Characters ALSO don't have permission to do so.

ONLY FULL UNITS have permission to activate a Thrust Move. Telling me that Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type is irrelevant and a red herring because models of their type don't have this ability. RaW, only Jet Pack UNITS do.

So, again, please stop posting the same old argument. You're obviously missing the point that models NEVER gain the Thrust Move ability. Only Jet Pack UNITS do. It is a UNIT level action, not a model level one.

I feel like I'm talking to myself, because I know you won't listen to or understand anything I say.

You need to show a rules citation either...

1. showing that the Thrust Move may be made by a model and not a unit. The rules use the word unit.
2. an IC joined to a unit is not, in fact, a part of the unit for all rules purposes, but instead we are explicitly and unambiguously told to treat the IC as an entirely separate unit for the purposes of movement. I know ICs follow their own movement rules, but the Thrust Move requires a unit action and not a model action. For the IC to be able to do a Thrust Move, he would have to explicitly be considered a separate unit.

Either one. If you're correct, this should be easy.

In the meantime, I'll wait for the copy paste of your existing argument that isn't working so far.

An Independent Character is a unit all by itself.

When it joins a unit, an Independent Character counts as part of a unit for all intents and purposes except for the character rules which it must follow and also the Independent Character rules which allow it to do very unique things like detach from a unit or attach to a different unit, etc. It loses its unit in a unit status except for those areas governed by character and IC rules (where it retains its ability to act as a separate unit in a unit) as the rule makes clear.

The character rules require that for movement purposes we follow the model type.

With regards to movement the Independent Character retains its status as a unit in a unit since those movement exceptions fall under character rules which are not ruled by the 'for all intents and purposes' clause as you would have it.

Otherwise please show a rule that blanket disallows an Independent Character from acting as a separable and differential unit in a unit with regards to movement. The clause you are hedging on ('for all intents and purposes') does not apply to the character rules or the Independent Character rules. For those rules the IC is empowered to act as a unit within a unit. How else, for example, would an IC be able to leave its parent unit if it could not act as a separable and differential unit within a unit.

I have shown clear permission that the rules support the IC moving according to its type as a unit in a unit. This is because the 'all intents and purposes' clause does not apply to the character rules or the Independent Character rules. For those rules, the IC acts as a separable and differential unit in a unit.

As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to move as Jet Pack Type in a unit of mixed models. The rules are clear and I have traced permission.

Did you even bother reading your own quotes? Following rules is not breaking them. He is given permission to follow the rules for his unit type (which is essentially a redundant reminder) following the rules for jet packs means you need to be in a jet pack UNIT to use the thrust move.

So please prove that following rules means breaking rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:

As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to move as Jet Pack Type in a unit of mixed models. The rules are clear and I have traced permission.

Did you even bother reading your own quotes? Following rules is not breaking them. He is given permission to follow the rules for his unit type (which is essentially a redundant reminder) following the rules for jet packs means you need to be in a jet pack UNIT to use the thrust move.

So please prove that following rules means breaking rules.

I am the one posting rules that show a clear chain of permission and by doing such I claim RAW permission. Feel free to post rules that show an alternate chain of resolution. Otherwise, step aside.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to move as Jet Pack Type in a unit of mixed models. The rules are clear and I have traced permission.

Did you even bother reading your own quotes? Following rules is not breaking them. He is given permission to follow the rules for his unit type (which is essentially a redundant reminder) following the rules for jet packs means you need to be in a jet pack UNIT to use the thrust move.

So please prove that following rules means breaking rules.

I am the one posting rules that show a clear chain of permission and by doing such I claim RAW permission. Feel free to post rules that show an alternate chain of resolution. Otherwise, step aside.

You haven't though. You've shown you have to follow Jet Pack rules and then claim that as a reason to break them...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Talos - you can follow the rules for your type just fine. The rule for the unit type "JetPack (X) " is that the *unit* must elect to make a thrust move

So, to follow the rule, the unit must elect to do so. we know the IC is not a unit by themselves, so the unit entire must evoke the rule. Only the unit entire cannot do so, so the rule cannot be evoked.

All rules followed. None broken

And by using the permission of Characters to move according to their own Unit Type, the character can make a Thrust move.
I have not broken the *Unit* restriction, as the character has permission alone.

It is as simple as: If 1 model only has a permission, the restrictions (of the permission - having to be a JetPack *Unit*) apply to the 1 model only. The character is a Jet-Pack model. If on his own, he may Thrust. So when you apply the movement rules to him alone, they "work in a vacuum".

 Kriswall wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
You keep repeating the same thing, and yet you arent actually proving anything.


When the character is a unit in and of himself, he can thrust. Joined to any other type of unit, he is no longer a jet pack unit and thus cannot thrust move.

Thats the clear cut and dry. There is no other way to interpret this.

And to be 100% crystal clear, because I think this is the part that a lot of people are getting wrong...

When a Character or IC with the Jet Pack unit type is alone in a Unit by himself, he still doesn't have permission to initiate a Thrust Move. Instead, the UNIT he's in (that happens to contain only one model) has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. As soon as the "Jet Pack Unit" initiates the Thrust Move, all models in said unit are able to do the whole move 2D6" move thing.

The IC may no longer be a Unit of 1 (and Type of his own). But he has a clear permission to move "independently". The same "independence" is what allows him to qualify for a thrust move.

IE "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type". When the Character initiates the Thrust Move, all models in said unit (Which, currently, is "only the character" as he is not part of the Unit for that Rule purpose) are able to do the whole move 2D6" move thing.

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to move as Jet Pack Type in a unit of mixed models. The rules are clear and I have traced permission.

Did you even bother reading your own quotes? Following rules is not breaking them. He is given permission to follow the rules for his unit type (which is essentially a redundant reminder) following the rules for jet packs means you need to be in a jet pack UNIT to use the thrust move.

So please prove that following rules means breaking rules.

I am the one posting rules that show a clear chain of permission and by doing such I claim RAW permission. Feel free to post rules that show an alternate chain of resolution. Otherwise, step aside.

You haven't though. You've shown you have to follow Jet Pack rules and then claim that as a reason to break them...

Suprisingly, that's how the Rules work: Permission given to override a restriction. Let's get back to how Ever-living means you actually break Rules. I guess most of your games "break" rules then?

Suprisingly, that's how the Rules work: Permission given to override a restriction. Let's get back to how Ever-living means you actually break Rules. I guess most of your games "break" rules then?

Telling you to follow a rule is not making an exception to that rule. It is telling you to follow it not break it. Stop trying to claim following a rule means breaking it.

Black - no. The IC MODEL has permission as a model to move according to its unit type

The thrust move requires the IC model to evoke a rule available to units

The IC is not a unit. This is clear. The IC has permission to move, yes, but it still has no permission to act as a unit. It has permission as a model.

Model permission is insufficient. This is a demonstrated fact.

col_impact wrote:
An Independent Character is a unit all by itself.Otherwise please show a rule that blanket disallows an Independent Character from acting as a separable and differential unit in a unit with regards to movement.

So, you've fallen back on the old "prove that I can't" debate tactic. This is a permissive rule set, my friend. I don't have to prove that I can't. You have to prove that you can.

You have yet to show permission for a model (and not a Jet Pack Unit) to initiate a Thrust Move.
You have yet to show permission for an IC to be explicitly counted as a separate Unit for the purposes of initiating a Thrust Move.

You HAVE demonstrated time and time again that Character models follow the movement rules for models of their type. This has never been up for debate. Models of the Jet Pack type simply don't have permission in the rules to initiate a Thrust Move. By your own logic, neither would Characters. Only Units have that permission.

Two questions before I post a wall of text.

1 What is a unit?

2 How is a unit's type determined?

Gravmyr wrote:
Two questions before I post a wall of text.

1 What is a unit?

2 How is a unit's type determined?

1. Paraphrasing... a unit is one or more models that have "banded together". Units and models are both covered in the Units & Models section near the start of the rule book.

2. We don't know as the rules never explain this. The most common understanding is that if a unit is composed entirely of models with the same type, the unit also shares that type. There are no rules to cover units composed of models with a variety of types.

How do you know what unit type a mixed unit with the Destroyer is? How are you making the assumption that the unit type is not also Jetpack?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In cases where it would make more sense, how do we know unit does not refer to the models that compose a unit not just the "unit."

Gravmyr wrote:
How do you know what unit type a mixed unit with the Destroyer is? How are you making the assumption that the unit type is not also Jetpack?

The rules don't cover mixed units, so you have to make a decision.

The two most common interpretations I've seen...

Interpretation A - Use the type of the "core" unit. I.e., if an Infantry IC is joined to a Destroyer unit, call the unit a Jet Pack Unit as the "core" Destroyer unit is composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack type. The main issue with this theory is that sometimes a "core" unit can have models of mixed type. Examples include Kroot w/Kroot Hounds and Fire Warriors w/Gun Drones.

Interpretation B - Require that all of the models in a unit be of the same type for that unit to be called that type. If there are a variety of model types, call it a mixed unit and you lose any special benefits attributed to units of a certain type. So, a Destroyer Lord joined to a unit of Destroyers would be a Jet Pack Unit. A Destroyer Lord joined to a unit of Warriors would be a mixed unit.

I tend to go with interpretation B, but can see the argument for A.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gravmyr wrote:

In cases where it would make more sense, how do we know unit does not refer to the models that compose a unit not just the "unit."

Because GW used the word unit and not models. Simple as that.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Suprisingly, that's how the Rules work: Permission given to override a restriction. Let's get back to how Ever-living means you actually break Rules. I guess most of your games "break" rules then?

Telling you to follow a rule is not making an exception to that rule. It is telling you to follow it not break it. Stop trying to claim following a rule means breaking it.

I am not making any claims. I am following Rules which give permissions over other Rules. That's just how the system works.

Ever-living is telling you to follow its Rule. You are the one saying it "breaks" the Instant Death rule. If that is your definition of how the game works, then sure, i am breaking A LOT of Rules...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Black - no. The IC MODEL has permission as a model to move according to its unit type

The thrust move requires the IC model to evoke a rule available to units

The IC is not a unit. This is clear. The IC has permission to move, yes, but it still has no permission to act as a unit. It has permission as a model.

Model permission is insufficient. This is a demonstrated fact.

What Rule are you using to say that the IC is not a Unit? Is it this?
"he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

The RaW, demonstrably, point out that characters "follow the movement rules for models of their type". They do this independently from the rest of the Unit.
You could almost say (for the sake of understanding) that they are their own Unit when it comes to following the rules for movement. (Where they follow the rules for models of their type). Before you quote this and disagree, Characters (especially not-IC ones) are obviously part of the Unit (and never their own Unit). But for the sake of movement, they "follow the movement rules for models of their type".

Now the Fact that "Jet Pack Unit" is referred to, but never defined, is the common assumption not that "Jet Pack Unit" is when all the models concerned are "Jet Pack Infantry" (for eg.)?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
2. The rules refer to a "Jet Pack Unit", but never define what that means. We're forced to make a judgment call. Not everyone will make the same call.

2) with no rules definition we fall to English. A jet pack unit must refer to a unit of jet pack models. Thus all the models must be jetpack.

So when a rule says "follow the movement rules for models of their type" which models does this apply to?
Are they all Jet Pack models?
Does that make them a "Jet Pack Unit"?

 Kriswall wrote:
Because GW used the word unit and not models. Simple as that.

It is just as simple to assume that there are times when they did not match up their own terminology, we know this happens as they post errata to fix this regularly. As was stated earlier in this thread they do not use a proper copy editor. We can either take all the words as verbatim or not. Picking and choosing makes it impossible to have a discussion as you have to put into all your interpretations all words in a section/sentence that you do not believe are correct and define each one to exclude any possible alternatives.

Unit: A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.

Even though the above tells you that the unit is not just the concept of the group of models but the models as a whole, people choosing to assume that unit can only be defined as such. If that is the case please post a rule stating that.

Unit Type: In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.

You posted two options above but there is a clear representation of the entire unit that was not covered and that is a unit has all types that it's models have. This is the only comprehensive interpretation that follows the thought that a unit is made up of all models. If we do this the unit that we are discussing works just fine with each model moving and acting by it's own rules as put forth by the movement rules.

As an aside this would also solve a number of other conflicts in the book.

 Kriswall wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
How do you know what unit type a mixed unit with the Destroyer is? How are you making the assumption that the unit type is not also Jetpack?

The rules don't cover mixed units, so you have to make a decision.

The two most common interpretations I've seen...

Interpretation A - Use the type of the "core" unit. I.e., if an Infantry IC is joined to a Destroyer unit, call the unit a Jet Pack Unit as the "core" Destroyer unit is composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack type. The main issue with this theory is that sometimes a "core" unit can have models of mixed type. Examples include Kroot w/Kroot Hounds and Fire Warriors w/Gun Drones.

Interpretation B - Require that all of the models in a unit be of the same type for that unit to be called that type. If there are a variety of model types, call it a mixed unit and you lose any special benefits attributed to units of a certain type. So, a Destroyer Lord joined to a unit of Destroyers would be a Jet Pack Unit. A Destroyer Lord joined to a unit of Warriors would be a mixed unit.

I tend to go with interpretation B, but can see the argument for A.

Agreed. I used to be "B", because anyone would always evoke "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" as a solution to everything regarding ICs.

Then i found out that the Rule had 1 exception from this thread. And it seems like that one exception works in the favour of explaining this situation (movement).

I would also point out that in order to ascertain the "Core" of Interpretation A, i use Interpretation B. So i still "believe" in both, and that "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" makes Interpretation A more likely. But "B" is not incorrect... creates issues though...