Storm of Silence results prove Eldar hysteria to be hot air.

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**ImAGeek**

gmaleron wrote:
Called it when the Eldar drop, typical IoM bias. Everyone was freaking out about Eldar an didn't even stop to think about just how nasty the new Skitarri really are, especially when combined with the Flesh Tearers Formation and shoved into drop pods (Frontline Gaming proved that). Eldar are strong for sure but they are definitely not as OP as people were claiming or imagining them to be.

You do realise that this one tournament where we don't know if they used the old or new codex, very shortly after the codex dropped proves literally nothing yes?

**jreilly89**

ImAGeek wrote:
gmaleron wrote:
Called it when the Eldar drop, typical IoM bias. Everyone was freaking out about Eldar an didn't even stop to think about just how nasty the new Skitarri really are, especially when combined with the Flesh Tearers Formation and shoved into drop pods (Frontline Gaming proved that). Eldar are strong for sure but they are definitely not as OP as people were claiming or imagining them to be.

You do realise that this one tournament where we don't know if they used the old or new codex, very shortly after the codex dropped proves literally nothing yes?

No facts matter here, only feelz.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Sample size of 1, no info on lists, pure Eldar with restrictions doesn't touch the full potential of Eldar, unrestricted, with allies, and the tourney was run a couple weeks after the codex dropped.

Threads like this are the same reason that our country is in the toilet: it's run by lawyers rather than engineers and scientists.

No, the country is run by politicians and money. Lawyers don't want to run the country, lawyers just want to get paid and parade around this corpse called "justice".

OT, this is another Eldar defense. Having just played new Eldar, they are beyond broken. AFAIK, Skitaari don't have insane psychic phases. I'd rather fight Skitaari then WraithKnights and D weapons. At least Skitaari can be doubled out pretty reliably.

Honestly I don't see Skitarii as being all that broken, sure they have lots of toys enabling them to be a threat but those toys tend to require points. thats what gets me about the eldar 'dex.

I mean compare the new Imperial Knight crusader to the wraithknight, the WK is only 295 points vs the crusaders 425... because?

Oh absolutely. Besides being expensive, being able to kill Skitaari really hurts them, especially since most have 4+ and a 5+ FNP but are only T3. Eldar however can get Jink shenanigans, reroll saving throws, and then gak like Guide, Fortune, and Doom with 87 Psykers.

**Orock**

Actually its only a 6+ fnp.

And LOL at eldar defenders in this thread. The deflecting is so strong the government is thinking about printing out the comments and pasting them on their tanks as new lightweight armor.

**Moktor**

Thud wrote:

Since butt-stomping did not occur, we can confidently conclude that the new Eldar codex sucks balls.

Actually, that isn't at all what the OP said. I think the real deflectors here are the anti-"Eldar Defenders" who insist that the codex is so broken it is unplayable. Most of the over the top comments are coming from people who think that Eldar should be banned, and it reeks of desperation.

The OP said, and I agree, that it is definitely top-tier. I also believe that while this isn't the final word on anything, it goes to show that Eldar are not some unbeatable train of an army; crashing through all others with the scary S

weapons and endless fields of scatterlasers.

The above quote is way over-dramatic, and not representative of what was said in the OP.

Does the codex have the potential to be over the top? You bet it does. To be reasonable, however, it needs to be playtested and proven to be broken. It is amazing to see what changes on the actual battlefield. Making tons of changes ahead of anyone even getting to play is simply a cop-out.

**Happyjew**

From the link ansacs posted:

Eldar didn’t turn out to be that scary, but of course the codex was one week old, so does it really mean anything?

So it would seem that a good portion of the Eldar players were running Newdar.

**Talys**

ansacs wrote:I do find it lamentable that CWE opened the gates to a number of newbie stomper builds (scat pack spam, wraithknight spam). These builds struggle in 6-9 round game tournaments as they are unbalanced and there are popular lists which can kill these lists almost wholesale in 1-2 turns. However they will definitely rock an unprepared player and they usually lead to short unsatisfactory games. BTW this is also much of the reason that Tau are called OP whereas SM are usually not. SM win by outscoring you and don't usually table their opponent until the 5-7 turns if they manage to table their opponents at all.

Thank you -- that is a good way to put it

I must remember "newbie stomper builds". I have no idea why so many people think 30-40 bikes plus some wraithknights is the winningest army, except perhaps theoretically on a 30ft x 30ft table, you can just fly circles around your enemy and pick them off to death. We've tried it on scatterbike + wraithknight spam using proxies on 6x4 (1850 points) and 8x8 (3000 points), and it wasn't all that pretty for the bikes. Wraith Host is really nothing to worry about, either, in 1850, though Wraithguard are definitely a nice unit when used judiciously.

BrianDavion wrote:I mean compare the new Imperial Knight crusader to the wraithknight, the WK is only 295 points vs the crusaders 425... because?

I agree. Either the WK is too cheap (this is my position) or the IK is too expensive. But hey, in a tournament game with only 1 LoW, both have been nerfed -- as neither were LoW before.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
From the link ansacs posted:

Eldar didn’t turn out to be that scary, but of course the codex was one week old, so does it really mean anything?

So it would seem that a good portion of the Eldar players were running Newdar.

He makes a good point though: the burden of proof should be on the people who say the sky is falling to actually play it out with reasonably smart players, and see if scatterspam is really that effective against tough tournament lists. Just because an army seems dead easy to play doesn't necessarily make it a winning army.

**Sunhero**

ansacs wrote:
The winning Ork list is here;
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/05/06/tits-tournaments-storm-silence-itc-results-pics/

Very good list. Lots of tricks and options to win missions and kill what needs to be killed.

IMO this doesn't really prove anything. However, the burden of proof should have been on the people that screamed bloody murder anyways. Status Quo should not have to be proven it is change ie the "end of the competitive 40K" that should have needed some sort of proof. This entire situation is like a person accused someone of a crime and never bothered to prove there was a crime committed, instead the lynching committee got together and started measuring rope. Heck there is even a thread referencing typical lynching and witch hunt (burning people alive BTW!) references (pitch forks and torches) advocating a complete ban of CWE players and rules from games and events...this thread gained a large following and agreement before the codex was even released, just WOW.

I do find it lamentable that CWE opened the gates to a number of newbie stomper builds (scat pack spam, wraithknight spam). These builds struggle in 6-9 round game tournaments as they are unbalanced and there are popular lists which can kill these lists almost wholesale in 1-2 turns. However they will definitely rock an unprepared player and they usually lead to short unsatisfactory games. BTW this is also much of the reason that Tau are called OP whereas SM are usually not. SM win by outscoring you and don't usually table their opponent until the 5-7 turns if they manage to table their opponents at all. Some Tau builds will table unprepared players in the 2-3 turns and an unprepared player can see the majority of their models shot off the board turn 1. People don't like picking up their toys without playing with them first. I of course don't mind as I have an IG army...I pick up dozens of models every game having only just deployed them, playing IG is a form of self torture but also a love and passion.

every one should read this.

I agree completely.

especially with CWE being full of "newbie stomper builds".
just like tau and this is this is "the reason that Tau are called OP whereas SM are usually not."

**Accolade**

OP, could you change the title so it's less of a flamebait thread and more of an actual discussion?

**Wyldhunt**

My two cents: At our local ATC-style tournament yesterday, we had an eldar player run the following.

Farseer
2 squads of rangers
Spirit Host formation including 3 squads of 5 wraithguard in serpents.

His first round was against blob IG. I didn't catch the specifics, but I think he basically just couldn't do enough damage to the blob for it to matter while they blasted him with heavy weapons.

Second round was against a green tide. His wraith knight got stuck in, then died to power klaws on turn 3. Wound up losing, but got points for killing his special targets.

Third round was his first win. It was against a chaos marine army featuring daemon engines, a land raider, and some other vehicles. So a pretty solid target for his wraith weapons.

Again, this is far from being a trend. He had some unfortunate matchups and won 100% (1 game) of his games against non-hordes. However, it does show that ranged d (wraithguns) and reigned-in use of a wraith knight doesn't have to be an auto-win.

**OrkaMorka**

Best thing about this thread is the people broiling at the OP as though he unsolicited relations with their mothers, sisters, and dog.

The only flame baiting are the people who take this way too seriously.

**Chute82**

This just proves the ork codex is OP.

The truth is one 50 person tournament does not prove a thing. You can't base a whole argument that Eldar are nothing buy hype after a few weeks of a new dex. Also as other have pointed out points where rewarded on other things then just wins alone. Not a very good argument on the OP part

**Accolade**

OrkaMorka wrote:
Best thing about this thread is the people broiling at the OP as though he unsolicited relations with their mothers, sisters, and dog.

The only flame baiting are the people who take this way too seriously.

Pointing out flaws in the argument posted in the OP or asking for a normal title (ie "Tournament shows Eldar power level may not be as great a concern as previously though") hardly constitutes flame baiting.

**OrkaMorka**

Not a fan of the Ork list myself. It's mostly Tankbusta and Warbike spam. Not very imaginative nor complex.

Very killy, but not my flavour. I may not make awesome TAC lists myself, only because I like to mix up my troops to make it interesting.

I'd like to see where this Eldar Dex stands in a couple months. I don't think its as bad as napalm in the eyes as some people think, but it does look bloody mean.

Accolade wrote:
OrkaMorka wrote:
Best thing about this thread is the people broiling at the OP as though he unsolicited relations with their mothers, sisters, and dog.

The only flame baiting are the people who take this way too seriously.

Pointing out flaws in the argument posted in the OP or asking for a normal title (ie "Tournament shows Eldar power level may not be as great a concern as previously though") hardly constitutes flame baiting.

Pointing out flaws in an argument is cool. I like that myself. It makes discussion boards interesting.

The general attitude of some people here and on other threads are pretty terrible though.

**bullyboy**

I do find it funny that the Eldar bashers are now saying "the codex has only been out for a week" yet it took less than 30 minutes for these same people to come up with lists they think are all broken, lol.
If it is that broken, it would not have mattered, the results should have been better based on the scorn thrown about on this forum.
One event does not make a trend, but it's nice to see that the sky hasn't fallen yet.

**ImAGeek**

bullyboy wrote:
I do find it funny that the Eldar bashers are now saying "the codex has only been out for a week" yet it took less than 30 minutes for these same people to come up with lists they think are all broken, lol.
If it is that broken, it would not have mattered, the results should have been better based on the scorn thrown about on this forum.
One event does not make a trend, but it's nice to see that the sky hasn't fallen yet.

Coming up with a list is easy. A lot of them used a lot of Jetbikes, which you have to buy, assemble etc, which you might not be able to do in a week. We need to see the lists they used really.

**Accolade**

ImAGeek wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
I do find it funny that the Eldar bashers are now saying "the codex has only been out for a week" yet it took less than 30 minutes for these same people to come up with lists they think are all broken, lol.
If it is that broken, it would not have mattered, the results should have been better based on the scorn thrown about on this forum.
One event does not make a trend, but it's nice to see that the sky hasn't fallen yet.

Coming up with a list is easy. A lot of them used a lot of Jetbikes, which you have to buy, assemble etc, which you might not be able to do in a week. We need to see the lists they used really.

This reminds me, I believe Reecius has a contest going on over at Frontline Gaming for anyone who can beat his Eldar jetbike/wraithknight army, I wonder how that's been going.

**SilverDevilfish**

Wyldhunt wrote:
My two cents: At our local ATC-style tournament yesterday, we had an eldar player run the following.

Farseer
2 squads of rangers
Spirit Host formation including 3 squads of 5 wraithguard in serpents.

His first round was against blob IG. I didn't catch the specifics, but I think he basically just couldn't do enough damage to the blob for it to matter while they blasted him with heavy weapons.

Second round was against a green tide. His wraith knight got stuck in, then died to power klaws on turn 3. Wound up losing, but got points for killing his special targets.

Third round was his first win. It was against a chaos marine army featuring daemon engines, a land raider, and some other vehicles. So a pretty solid target for his wraith weapons.

Again, this is far from being a trend. He had some unfortunate matchups and won 100% (1 game) of his games against non-hordes. However, it does show that ranged d (wraithguns) and reigned-in use of a wraith knight doesn't have to be an auto-win.

When I first saw the Wraithhost formation and tried thinking out a list with it, it struck me as a trap.

Everything I keep seeing and hearing about it, just keeps confirming that initial impression.

**Konrax**

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Sample size of 1, no info on lists, pure Eldar with restrictions doesn't touch the full potential of Eldar, unrestricted, with allies, and the tourney was run a couple weeks after the codex dropped.

Threads like this are the same reason that our country is in the toilet: it's run by lawyers rather than engineers and scientists.

Dear god if the country was run be engineers and scientists everything would go to shi7.

**Davor**

Chute82 wrote:
This just proves the ork codex is OP.

The truth is one 50 person tournament does not prove a thing. You can't base a whole argument that Eldar are nothing buy hype after a few weeks of a new dex. Also as other have pointed out points where rewarded on other things then just wins alone. Not a very good argument on the OP part

Well to be fair a lot of people played only one game against Eldar and are claiming they are Over Powered. How does that prove anything?

So what is it? One game proves Eldar are over powered or one tournament doesn't prove that Eldar are not over powered? You can't have it both ways.

**ImAGeek**

Davor wrote:
Chute82 wrote:
This just proves the ork codex is OP.

The truth is one 50 person tournament does not prove a thing. You can't base a whole argument that Eldar are nothing buy hype after a few weeks of a new dex. Also as other have pointed out points where rewarded on other things then just wins alone. Not a very good argument on the OP part

Well to be fair a lot of people played only one game against Eldar and are claiming they are Over Powered. How does that prove anything?

So what is it? One game proves Eldar are over powered or one tournament doesn't prove that Eldar are not over powered? You can't have it both ways.

Well to be fair not everyone is claiming both.

**Thud**

Moktor wrote:
Thud wrote:

Since butt-stomping did not occur, we can confidently conclude that the new Eldar codex sucks balls.

Actually, that isn't at all what the OP said. I think the real deflectors here are the anti-"Eldar Defenders" who insist that the codex is so broken it is unplayable. Most of the over the top comments are coming from people who think that Eldar should be banned, and it reeks of desperation.

The OP said, and I agree, that it is definitely top-tier. I also believe that while this isn't the final word on anything, it goes to show that Eldar are not some unbeatable train of an army; crashing through all others with the scary S weapons and endless fields of scatterlasers.

The above quote is way over-dramatic, and not representative of what was said in the OP.

Does the codex have the potential to be over the top? You bet it does. To be reasonable, however, it needs to be playtested and proven to be broken. It is amazing to see what changes on the actual battlefield. Making tons of changes ahead of anyone even getting to play is simply a cop-out.

So, you're gonna go for criticizing me for taking OP out of context by taking a sentence from my post of out context? Smooth move, turbo.

The above quote, as you say, is over-dramatic as it was intentionally so to be a sarcastic exaggeration relating to OP's "proof," which was perfectly obvious within the context of the entire post, but not-so-much on its own.

To re-iterate; one tournament held ONE week after the Eldar release proves nothing. There were five Eldar players there, and at least two of them were using the old book (the BOK blog shows pictures of only two Eldar armies, both had Wraithknights, and the tournament allowed both books, but not the WK from the new one).

And by the way, this whole "come on guys, we don't know anything before it's playtested properly" spiel doesn't make you the voice of reason, it just makes you yet another guy on the internet basing his argument on a logical fallacy (argumentum ad temperantiam, if you're wondering).

**SilverDevilfish**

Thud wrote:
Moktor wrote:
Thud wrote:

Since butt-stomping did not occur, we can confidently conclude that the new Eldar codex sucks balls.

Actually, that isn't at all what the OP said. I think the real deflectors here are the anti-"Eldar Defenders" who insist that the codex is so broken it is unplayable. Most of the over the top comments are coming from people who think that Eldar should be banned, and it reeks of desperation.

The OP said, and I agree, that it is definitely top-tier. I also believe that while this isn't the final word on anything, it goes to show that Eldar are not some unbeatable train of an army; crashing through all others with the scary S weapons and endless fields of scatterlasers.

The above quote is way over-dramatic, and not representative of what was said in the OP.

Does the codex have the potential to be over the top? You bet it does. To be reasonable, however, it needs to be playtested and proven to be broken. It is amazing to see what changes on the actual battlefield. Making tons of changes ahead of anyone even getting to play is simply a cop-out.

So, you're gonna go for criticizing me for taking OP out of context by taking a sentence from my post of out context? Smooth move, turbo.

The above quote, as you say, is over-dramatic as it was intentionally so to be a sarcastic exaggeration relating to OP's "proof," which was perfectly obvious within the context of the entire post, but not-so-much on its own.

To re-iterate; one tournament held ONE week after the Eldar release proves nothing. There were five Eldar players there, and at least two of them were using the old book (the BOK blog shows pictures of only two Eldar armies, both had Wraithknights, and the tournament allowed both books, but not the WK from the new one).

And by the way, this whole "come on guys, we don't know anything before it's playtested properly" spiel doesn't make you the voice of reason, it just makes you yet another guy on the internet basing his argument on a logical fallacy (argumentum ad temperantiam, if you're wondering).

It's worth noting that if something needs to be playtested to determine whether it will break the game or not, then it's only reasonable that it should not be playable until a decision be made using play test games and invite-only tournaments involving the best players in the area. Where's the logic of adding something that may be broken to the tournament meta? Clearly Eldar players should have to use the 6th ed codex if we're using the logic of "it needs to be playtested more".

This isn't just pertaining to the Eldar either. I hate the argument of "It's not playtested, so let's let it run free and possibly ruin everything" in general.

**DCannon4Life**

Ah sweet problem of vagueness: If ONE tournament doesn't disprove the Eldar codex is OP, then we can conclude that ONE tournament doesn't make a difference. It follows, therefore, that an ADDITIONAL tournament would not make a difference. And so on, until there are a dozen tournaments in the books and the Eldar codex is still somehow OP despite evidence to the contrary. GG.

Pure Hilarity.

**jreilly89**

DCannon4Life wrote:
Ah sweet problem of vagueness: If ONE tournament doesn't disprove the Eldar codex is OP, then we can conclude that ONE tournament doesn't make a difference. It follows, therefore, that an ADDITIONAL tournament would not make a difference. And so on, until there are a dozen tournaments in the books and the Eldar codex is still somehow OP despite evidence to the contrary. GG.

Pure Hilarity.

Name is DCannon4Life, has an Eldar tag, posts about how Eldar aren't that OP. Yep, everything checks out.

**bibotot**

This tournament result makes me want to gak on whoever wrote the Necron Codex. fething broken.

**Thud**

DCannon4Life wrote:
Ah sweet problem of vagueness: If ONE tournament doesn't disprove the Eldar codex is OP, then we can conclude that ONE tournament doesn't make a difference. It follows, therefore, that an ADDITIONAL tournament would not make a difference. And so on, until there are a dozen tournaments in the books and the Eldar codex is still somehow OP despite evidence to the contrary. GG.

Pure Hilarity.

Are you trolling or are you actually not able to see how that's a fallacy?

**DCannon4Life**

The Problem of Vagueness operates when some dipstick says, 'One of X doesn't make a difference'. We demonstrate the absurdity of this premise by showing how it leads to, for example, a hairless man being classified as 'not-bald', because some dipstick said that pulling one hair off of a man's head doesn't make him bald.

Do YOU get that I'm making fun of posters that say this one tournament doesn't make a difference?

**Accolade**

DCannon4Life wrote:
Do YOU get that I'm making fun of posters that say this one tournament doesn't make a difference?

There's your problem. You don't GET to make fun of other posters, it goes against Rule #1. Think your posting over before attacking another person over their opinion on plastic miniatures.

**ImAGeek**

But one tournament doesn't make a difference. That one hair doesn't make a difference. If the original post had a few data points it would be different but coming in saying 'Eldar didn't win this one tournament so they aren't broken' is like saying 'we took one hair from this mans hair so he must be bald', to use your analogy.

**Crimson Devil**

Accolade wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
I do find it funny that the Eldar bashers are now saying "the codex has only been out for a week" yet it took less than 30 minutes for these same people to come up with lists they think are all broken, lol.
If it is that broken, it would not have mattered, the results should have been better based on the scorn thrown about on this forum.
One event does not make a trend, but it's nice to see that the sky hasn't fallen yet.

Coming up with a list is easy. A lot of them used a lot of Jetbikes, which you have to buy, assemble etc, which you might not be able to do in a week. We need to see the lists they used really.

This reminds me, I believe Reecius has a contest going on over at Frontline Gaming for anyone who can beat his Eldar jetbike/wraithknight army, I wonder how that's been going.

Reece beat five armies; drop marines, Centstar, Daemons, and Tau (can't remember that last one) with some pretty poor Eldar lists. He lost the sixth game (Khorne: Daemonkin) due to a mistake on his part. He forgot his troop weren't Obsec.

http://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv/profile/past_broadcasts