Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are no longer cheesy. But Eldar definitely are.

GKs just get hate from 5th edition, far more than was ever deserved.

Sure, destroying an entire edition of the game was never really that huge of an issue...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are no longer cheesy. But Eldar definitely are.

GKs just get hate from 5th edition, far more than was ever deserved.

Sure, destroying an entire edition of the game was never really that huge of an issue...

That attitude is one of the reasons I still hold a grudge. C'mon guys... it wasn't THAT bad, right?

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, no. I was computing WOUNDS not rounds. You only need 8 rends to kill a buffed DK on average. Plus, since they can't get FNP, there's a real chance you can sneak a regular wound through as well. I don't think they will last long. 3++ is a hard counter to the DK.

Oh, good golly. That's better than. Still, I don't like my chances. Plus, I'll have another DK running around while that one's tied up.

You did bring more than one unit of Wraiths, right? I'd have three if I ran Necrons. They are an assault unit that actually gets to assault and not just die like slime.

I enjoy playing more than just Wraiths, unfortunately.

Good thing Wraiths are cheap for what they do. Three units of Wraiths leaves tons of points for shooty stuff. Once you have three wraith units, DK pretty much become jokes. And the joke is on the GK as they try to kill the rest of your invincible doods.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But they'll kill it, too. Rending, yo.

You have more faith in Rending than I do. Plus, how many rounds would that take?

If 258 pts of wraiths get the charge. 24 attacks, 12 hits, 2 rends 4 wounds, 12/6 wounds - 2 wounds done. DK kills one wraith each round.
round 2, 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 1 rend 3 wounds, 7/6 wounds ~ 1.16 wound.
Round 3 12 attacks, 6 hits 1 rend 2 wounds, 6/6 wounds - 1 wound. DK dies.

Assuming wraiths get the charge, and have not been shot at all, they kill the DK in 1.5 game turns, losing 2 wraiths.

If the DK charges (again assuming no shooting)

Wraiths 18 attacks, 9 hits, -1.5 rend 3 wounds, 9/6 wounds ~1.5 wounds.
Round 2 , 15 attacks (see above) -> 1.16
Round 3 , 1 wound.
Round 4 , 9 atacks, 4.5 hits, 0.75 rends. 1.5 wounds. 4.5/6 wounds - 0.75 wounds DK dead. Half a squad of wraiths dead.

Bear in mind, this is assuming a full squad of wraiths , unharmed by shooting. a DK shooting phase would likely kill one wraith. 5 wraiths will lose to a DK on the charge.
The above scenarios assume the DK isnt rolling hot. One lucky round for the DK could easily swing the fight. It's a pretty even match up. Slightly favoring, the slightly more expensive wraiths.

Still, trading a DK 1:1 pts wise is NOT what the GK player wants. Plus, the Necrons get to shoo the DK before they assault it.

I think you're overestimating necron shooting DK's. Dks are one of (if not) the worst targets for necrons to fire at. Unless your dropping deathmarks in on it, or bringing some doomscythes, it's gonna be tough to crack.

Nightbringer & RoC praets can handle it, but they arent too popular.

Basic warriors, our go to shooting. would need 216 shots to kill it.
Hdestroyer will however mince it, if left unchecked.

harkequin wrote:
I think you're overestimating necron shooting DK's. Dks are one of (if not) the worst targets for necrons to fire at. Unless your dropping deathmarks in on it, or bringing some doomscythes, it's gonna be tough to crack.

Nightbringer & RoC praets can handle it, but they arent too popular.

Basic warriors, our go to shooting. would need 216 shots to kill it.
Hdestroyer will however mince it, if left unchecked.

You only need a wound or two to cut down the time it takes the Wraiths to rend them out, though. Don't Necrons have some S5 guns? Or any poison?

Ok. It takes roughly 36 Flayer shots to put a wound on a dreadknight. But what else is there for you to shoot at? There are going to be maybe 6-7 units in a typical GK list at most. So you'll have the shots to spare for the DK, especially since the Terminators probably aren't in range at the same time.

So you have one unit of warriors shoot the DK. Cause 1 wound. Then your wraiths charge it and murder it. Thats assuming you aren't also shooting it with any of your AP2 shooting.

DKs are just a big terminator and you kill it like a big terminator, lots of shots.

Toughness 6 is a huge deal though. Bear in mind, the necron max threat range is 24" the dreadknight is not in that threat range unless it wants to be. It also has far more AP4 weaponry than warriors are comfortable with.

To put one wound on a DK it takes 36 warriors, (No way someone left their DK in rapid fire range) so 468 points of necrons to put a wound on a DK.

Don't get me wrong, we can handle it, It's just the worst possible target for the majority of our shooting. Also, S5 weapons aren't too popular.

S7 on Nightscythes, but they get one pass before they turn, S5 on Destroyers but you're wasting their AP3 , and less volume of fire.

We do have dedicated units that can handle it, It's just an excellent counter to warriors, which most armies are pretty reliant on. Warriors are our bread and butter for board control. (unless it's a tourney list, then it's wraithspam/destroyerspam/lychstar etc )

10 Death marks (180) on the drop (in rapid fire range)
20 shots, 14 hits, 2.3 rends, 9.4 wounds. -> ~18/6 wounds. So crippling a DK for 180 pts, then something else can probably pick up the last wound.

Oh yeah, necrons have literally 0 poison weapons and one sniper weapon.

Martel732 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
I think you're overestimating necron shooting DK's. Dks are one of (if not) the worst targets for necrons to fire at. Unless your dropping deathmarks in on it, or bringing some doomscythes, it's gonna be tough to crack.

Nightbringer & RoC praets can handle it, but they arent too popular.

Basic warriors, our go to shooting. would need 216 shots to kill it.
Hdestroyer will however mince it, if left unchecked.

You only need a wound or two to cut down the time it takes the Wraiths to rend them out, though. Don't Necrons have some S5 guns? Or any poison?

Lol, Necrons with poison.

That does sound pretty miserable, I must admit. However, I still stand by the GK being pretty mortal in general. Especially with all the AP 2 that IoM lists can field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
I think you're overestimating necron shooting DK's. Dks are one of (if not) the worst targets for necrons to fire at. Unless your dropping deathmarks in on it, or bringing some doomscythes, it's gonna be tough to crack.

Nightbringer & RoC praets can handle it, but they arent too popular.

Basic warriors, our go to shooting. would need 216 shots to kill it.
Hdestroyer will however mince it, if left unchecked.

You only need a wound or two to cut down the time it takes the Wraiths to rend them out, though. Don't Necrons have some S5 guns? Or any poison?

Lol, Necrons with poison.

I guess that's a no.

harkequin wrote:
Toughness 6 is a huge deal though. Bear in mind, the necron max threat range is 24" the dreadknight is not in that threat range unless it wants to be.

It actually has to be. All of its guns are 24" max too, and it wants to be in melee on top of that. So yeah, its going to be in rapid fire range.

The DK has no choice but to get within point blank range. This usually results in bad things for the DK against many, many lists.

 Grey Templar wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Toughness 6 is a huge deal though. Bear in mind, the necron max threat range is 24" the dreadknight is not in that threat range unless it wants to be.

It actually has to be. All of its guns are 24" max too, and it wants to be in melee on top of that. So yeah, its going to be in rapid fire range.

It's a Jump MC, If it's in 12", it's already swept you.
Yes it's weapons are 24", but with a 12" move, you have to fight on it's terms. If it wants to focus something, we can't easily support them from across the map. Necrons *generally* suffer from a low threat range, and mobility, we have insane durability to balance that out though.

We lack a lot of dedicated heavy hunters, It's assumed that mass fire can handle most things, while this is great for land raiders, it's 6x harder to kill a DK. It's one of our deliberate short comings. (also the reason deathmarks exist)

Yeah, grav bikers don't care so much about the 12" move.

harkequin wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Toughness 6 is a huge deal though. Bear in mind, the necron max threat range is 24" the dreadknight is not in that threat range unless it wants to be.

It actually has to be. All of its guns are 24" max too, and it wants to be in melee on top of that. So yeah, its going to be in rapid fire range.

It's a Jump MC, If it's in 12", it's already swept you.
Yes it's weapons are 24", but with a 12" move, you have to fight on it's terms. If it wants to focus something, we can't easily support them from across the map. Necrons *generally* suffer from a low threat range, and mobility, we have insane durability to balance that out though.

We lack a lot of dedicated heavy hunters, It's assumed that mass fire can handle most things, while this is great for land raiders, it's 6x harder to kill a DK. It's one of our deliberate short comings. (also the reason deathmarks exist)

Its only within 12" after its Shunt move. And that gives you 1 turn minimum to shoot it before it attacks something. And unless you put all your eggs in that one basket its still anybody's game.

And if it wasn't shunting and just moving up normally, thats 2-3 turns of shooting minimum before its assaulting you. Plenty of time to weaken it.

 Grey Templar wrote:

harkequin wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Toughness 6 is a huge deal though. Bear in mind, the necron max threat range is 24" the dreadknight is not in that threat range unless it wants to be.

It actually has to be. All of its guns are 24" max too, and it wants to be in melee on top of that. So yeah, its going to be in rapid fire range.

It's a Jump MC, If it's in 12", it's already swept you.
Yes it's weapons are 24", but with a 12" move, you have to fight on it's terms. If it wants to focus something, we can't easily support them from across the map. Necrons *generally* suffer from a low threat range, and mobility, we have insane durability to balance that out though.

We lack a lot of dedicated heavy hunters, It's assumed that mass fire can handle most things, while this is great for land raiders, it's 6x harder to kill a DK. It's one of our deliberate short comings. (also the reason deathmarks exist)

Its only within 12" after its Shunt move. And that gives you 1 turn minimum to shoot it before it attacks something. And unless you put all your eggs in that one basket its still anybody's game.

And if it wasn't shunting and just moving up normally, thats 2-3 turns of shooting minimum before its assaulting you. Plenty of time to weaken it.

Where are you getting 2-3 turns from?, 24" threat range with a 12" move, You get 1 turn of shooting it, from non-rapid fire before it assaults, that's the issue. You will be out of range -> it will move into your range, you will shoot it, it will assault you next turn. I'm not saying it's OP, I'm saying it's a good choice versus crons. If you are building an unbound list to make crons weep, DKs are a good start.

It moves 12", then has an average of 7" assault. So its only average charging you from 19" away. 24" would be an insanely lucky charge roll(1/36 chance). Thats well within rapid fire range. It can't use the reroll from the teleport pack if it moves 12" in the movement phase. And it can't assault after shunting. So yes, you do have 2-3 turns of shooting it minimum before its in melee. This also assumes no terrain is involved.

Unless you handed him an assault target on a silver platter or something.

Getting into assault is a super pain in the butt, even for shunting DK.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It moves 12", then has an average of 7" assault. So its only average charging you from 19" away. 24" would be an insanely lucky charge roll(1/36 chance). Thats well within rapid fire range. It can't use the reroll from the teleport pack if it moves 12" in the movement phase. And it can't assault after shunting. So yes, you do have 2-3 turns of shooting it minimum before its in melee. This also assumes no terrain is involved.

Unless you handed him an assault target on a silver platter or something.

I'm genuinely curious how you are getting 2-3 turns. You cannot shoot at it outside of 24", Assuming you he moves to the line, he is 24" away from you, you get 1 turn of shooting, then he moves 12 and fails the charge, you shoot him, then he charges, you are getting 2 turns of shooting at max at him, if they play absolutely everything in your favor.

If the DK plays well then they are going to stay at about 27" from you, you cannot shoot him, even if you move then. If you retreat, you are 33" away, they move up 12 ending, 21 away, you either move out of range, or move 3" away to still shoot, then we are back to earlier, 2 turns of shooting before assault. In this scecnario, not only are you only getting 2 turns of shots, you are running away, as mush as possible, with no terrain in the way, and the DK has control of that board section.

That is my point. you are not shooting the DK for 3 turns, unless he wants you to. That's a deliberate downside of necrons, 24" range, we hae literally 1 non-vehicle gun with a range >24".

harkequin wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It moves 12", then has an average of 7" assault. So its only average charging you from 19" away. 24" would be an insanely lucky charge roll(1/36 chance). Thats well within rapid fire range. It can't use the reroll from the teleport pack if it moves 12" in the movement phase. And it can't assault after shunting. So yes, you do have 2-3 turns of shooting it minimum before its in melee. This also assumes no terrain is involved.

Unless you handed him an assault target on a silver platter or something.

I'm genuinely curious how you are getting 2-3 turns. You cannot shoot at it outside of 24", Assuming you he moves to the line, he is 24" away from you, you get 1 turn of shooting, then he moves 12 and fails the charge, you shoot him, then he charges, you are getting 2 turns of shooting at max at him, if they play absolutely everything in your favor.

If the DK plays well then they are going to stay at about 27" from you, you cannot shoot him, even if you move then. If you retreat, you are 33" away, they move up 12 ending, 21 away, you either move out of range, or move 3" away to still shoot, then we are back to earlier, 2 turns of shooting before assault. In this scecnario, not only are you only getting 2 turns of shots, you are running away, as mush as possible, with no terrain in the way, and the DK has control of that board section.

That is my point. you are not shooting the DK for 3 turns, unless he wants you to. That's a deliberate downside of necrons, 24" range, we hae literally 1 non-vehicle gun with a range >24".

I agree, necrons only get one turn, two max I'd say.

Like i said, he would have to end his move within 18" of you for you to rapid fire him, with 12" of movement, he isn't going to likely do that, 2 turns max of shooting, assuming a full warrior squad, thats 40 shots, so nearly doing a wound to him, Including overwatch with rapid fire, and 2 turns of shooting, you will do 1 wound to it, and lose the 20 warriors.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

I agree, necrons only get one turn, two max I'd say.

Yeah, It's the price of durability , then again, T6 2+ armor, are basically the best thing against necrons short of D-weapons.

I gave a range 2-3 because there is some variation. The DK only wants to assault optimal targets, so he will move instead of charging if its a waste of time for him to try and kill warriors instead of vehicles or an HQ.

So sometimes it will be 2. Sometimes it will be 3. 2-3 turns minimum.

You also don't have a 24" threat on your guns. You have your move plus 24". So on warriors its 30". Advance, shoot 24". DK then moves 12" towards you. You back up 6", shoot again. DK is now 18" away, which is slightly below average for assaulting, but by no means certain. And he doesn't want to assault warriors anyway. He'll shoot them, but he won't assault them as he has better targets.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I gave a range 2-3 because there is some variation. The DK only wants to assault optimal targets, so he will move instead of charging if its a waste of time for him to try and kill warriors instead of vehicles or an HQ.

So sometimes it will be 2. Sometimes it will be 3. 2-3 turns minimum.

You also don't have a 24" threat on your guns. You have your move plus 24". So on warriors its 30". Advance, shoot 24". DK then moves 12" towards you. You back up 6", shoot again. DK is now 18" away, which is slightly below average for assaulting, but by no means certain. And he doesn't want to assault warriors anyway. He'll shoot them, but he won't assault them as he has better targets.

This scenario gets nightmarish against grav bikers and the situation is impossible against gravstars.

Just for mathhammer's sake, assuming you get 1 round of shooting, + 1 round of rapid fire + overwatch, you will do,

1 +2/9 wounds and will lose the squad in a best case scenario.Warriors, HATE DK's so we need wraiths or something to intercept them before hand.

Yes, but on the other hand the DK is killing crappy warriors instead of slapping down your Barge-lord like he is supposed to.

Realistically, the Warriors will only have the DKs interest for one round of his shooting, then he's after better targets. So you'll have 1 round of shooting at full strength, then another at whatever your casualties ended up being.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I gave a range 2-3 because there is some variation. The DK only wants to assault optimal targets, so he will move instead of charging if its a waste of time for him to try and kill warriors instead of vehicles or an HQ.

So sometimes it will be 2. Sometimes it will be 3. 2-3 turns minimum.

You also don't have a 24" threat on your guns. You have your move plus 24". So on warriors its 30". Advance, shoot 24". DK then moves 12" towards you. You back up 6", shoot again. DK is now 18" away, which is slightly below average for assaulting, but by no means certain. And he doesn't want to assault warriors anyway. He'll shoot them, but he won't assault them as he has better targets.

I already gave that scenario, and DKs do love to assault warriors, It's 260 points wiped in one round of combat. Yeah they might have better targets, but Warriors are the core of a necron army (usually) and very hard to remove, they are an amazing target of DKs.

So like i said, it's 1-2 rounds of shooting at best, a 6 inch charge is pretty reliable, and also assuming that you get 6 inches away, with no terrain slowing you, and the DK has gotten a lot of board control from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The barge lord is really no threat anymore, and basically the worst target for a DK, it will never catch it, and the barge can tank shooting for days. What a necron player worries about for DKs is destroying ghost arks, warriors, and immortals.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I mean....you are playing Grey Knights and Eldar together, for whatever reason....Forge that rock-hard narrative.

So Eldar can ally with Dark Eldar fine, but not with Grey Knights? The Grey Knights have even allied with Necron (they are part of the IoM now, so they have to follow the majority). There are people a bunch of people out there playing a Knight who is allying with Chaos, but not Slaanesh, even though all Chaos Knights according to the fluff are Slaanesh. I don't see any reason why I should not have these two armies together.

harkequin wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I gave a range 2-3 because there is some variation. The DK only wants to assault optimal targets, so he will move instead of charging if its a waste of time for him to try and kill warriors instead of vehicles or an HQ.

So sometimes it will be 2. Sometimes it will be 3. 2-3 turns minimum.

You also don't have a 24" threat on your guns. You have your move plus 24". So on warriors its 30". Advance, shoot 24". DK then moves 12" towards you. You back up 6", shoot again. DK is now 18" away, which is slightly below average for assaulting, but by no means certain. And he doesn't want to assault warriors anyway. He'll shoot them, but he won't assault them as he has better targets.

I already gave that scenario, and DKs do love to assault warriors, It's 260 points wiped in one round of combat. Yeah they might have better targets, but Warriors are the core of a necron army (usually) and very hard to remove, they are an amazing target of DKs.

So like i said, it's 1-2 rounds of shooting at best, a 6 inch charge is pretty reliable, and also assuming that you get 6 inches away, with no terrain slowing you, and the DK has gotten a lot of board control from it.

Its 2 rounds minimum, and thats worst case scenario. Assuming I don't shunt right next to you. Which I won't. I'll use my shunt to get into the rear arc of barges and such, not kill warriors.

Terminators are what I use to kill warriors, not DKs. Any player who uses DKs to hunt down warriors as a target of priority is using them sub-optimally.