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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




After about ten games versus the new Eldar, trying various lists and tactics... I have managed to win twice. Using Maelstrom missions the first time I was lucky on cards while the Eldar player was particularly unlucky. The second win was 1850, using 6 Tactical squads and flooding the board with obj sec troops to gain a points advantage. That game ended on turn 5, and I had lost 53 of the 67 SM bodies brought to the table. Also 5/6 of their dedicated transports were destroyed. If the game had gone to 7 I probably would have been tabled.

So that is the basic issue - Eldar feel like they are nearly impossible to beat. Even when I manage to squeak out a win, there is something hugely unrewarding about scooping up handfuls of Space Marines per turn as casualties. It feels like I should just run guard with the same tactic (swamp the field) since I"ll lose them at only a slightly increased rate. I do use grav Centurions. They are pretty effective, but they are about the only thing for which that can be said.

I've been playing for 8 years, 7 spent on SM. Have Space Marines simply fallen by the wayside? Why should we continue to use them when a majority of weapons treat their toughness and armor no different than the weaker troops of other factions?
3++ armor saves are all over the place when it used to be considered above average. The bolter is one small step above a lasgun and pales in comparison to the basic infantry weapon of nearly every other faction. ATSKNF is still nice, but most units people bring have ready access to fearless, or stubborn, or some kind of reroll mechanic.

I'm feeling really discouraged right now and could use some light at the end of the tunnel.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Light: Your new codex is just around the corner. You'll probably be given the Eldar/Necron treatment.

Dark: You'll need to cough up some cash to do the upgrades.

Twilight: A lot of armies are facing the same issue right now against Necrons and Eldar and the new power level of codexes. If you don't take tournament-quality lists (like White Scars), you're likely not going to have a wortwhile game against even the basic versions of these foes unless they're doing a lot to hamstring themselves. So, you're not alone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/13 14:30:46


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




PA Unitied States

If you want to go the tourny route I think you need to consider some sort of Imperium mixed force. A little space marines, and little inquisitoral, a little skitari or xenos etc, You get the Idea. I don't think they are good as stand alone force any longer.

22 yrs in the hobby
:Eldar: 10K+ pts, 2500 pts
1850 pts
Vampire Counts 4000+ 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Grand Forks, ND, USA

The rulebook page 130 comments on a perceived relationship between the amount of scenery used and the quality of the game. (Para. 6, sentence 2). (The more scenery the better game) Your opponent should be ready to allow half the total area of the battlefield for terrain pieces of your choice if you wish such. Bolters are most effective at short distances, somewhat effective at medium distances and non-effective at long distances. It is likely that the terrain won't provide a cover save better than your armor save, but it can block line of sight. Getting into your optimal firing position while denying long range shots from the enemy is needed. No doubt you have done this. If you can engage his army with as many of your units as possible at one time and envelope one of his flanks you've likely got him. This is just my opinion though. You have a better understanding of your army's capabilities.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/13 15:04:52


"They don't know us. Robot tanks are no match for space marines." Sergeant Knox from Star Blazers

Jesus Christ is the Resurrection and the Life 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






If you don't mind garbage ballance, than 40k is a great game no matter what army you play.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

An issue I face in the lion's share of games I play nowadays.

Opponent: okay so I shoot this unit here with (picks up fist full o' dice) this many shots. I have no problem hitting you. You're only t4? Even your badass 200+ point characters? Okay I wound on 2's. This many wounds, no cover, no armor, invulns only.

Me: "K." (I pick up squad of marines.)

Opponent: ok now this squad is shooting at that... (And so on.)

I occasionally proxy as sisters (is that like occasionally cross dressing?) just to get 6+ saves and more bodies while losing virtually nothing of value. Games are a lot easier when I do that. (It amuses me to see so many people that have no idea that sisters are a very good army, easily in the top third.)

20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin






 Yarium wrote:
Light: Your new codex is just around the corner. You'll probably be given the Eldar/Necron treatment.

Dark: You'll need to cough up some cash to do the upgrades.

Twilight: A lot of armies are facing the same issue right now against Necrons and Eldar and the new power level of codexes. If you don't take tournament-quality lists (like White Scars), you're likely not going to have a wortwhile game against even the basic versions of these foes unless they're doing a lot to hamstring themselves. So, you're not alone.


I wouldn't be so sure on that. When the 6th ed books were coming out similar things were said. Remember when CSM and DA were top dog? For like, 3 months these codex were good, and everyone was excited that the following books would be on the same level... instead Daemons, Eldar andTau followed, putting DA and CSM in the dirt, so then everyone thought the power level would stay high, Marines came out, and we started seeing a slow decrease in power until we hit the 7th ed Necrons and the Craftworlds book. Unfortunately it seems that power level is still just by chance, or maybe whim.

   
Made in it
Fresh-Faced New User




A good mix of Sw and White Scars can handle Crons and Eldar, The list must have hi mobility and be aggressive (centurion on pod can help whit a lucky first turn)
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Thanks everyone, I'll stick in there. Mostly the problem I have was well-stated by Niv-Mizzet; picking up an entire squad of marines from enemy fire without regard to their toughness or armor. It's extremely disheartening, hopefully they'll figure out some way to balance it back out.
   
Made in ca
Furious Fire Dragon





I prefer it like that. marines should be tough, but not so tough they can survive an anti-tank round to their uncovered head or being sucked into the warp. Points need to be adjusted more than anything.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Drop pod alpha strike, and maybe the chapter tactic that allows all your sgts to carry the narthecium for FNP. Don't give up! It's what the filthy Xenos want!
   
Made in us
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




Strike Cruiser Vladislav Volkov

niv-mizzet wrote:
An issue I face in the lion's share of games I play nowadays.

Opponent: okay so I shoot this unit here with (picks up fist full o' dice) this many shots. I have no problem hitting you. You're only t4? Even your badass 200+ point characters? Okay I wound on 2's. This many wounds, no cover, no armor, invulns only.

Me: "K." (I pick up squad of marines.)

Opponent: ok now this squad is shooting at that... (And so on.)

I occasionally proxy as sisters (is that like occasionally cross dressing?) just to get 6+ saves and more bodies while losing virtually nothing of value. Games are a lot easier when I do that. (It amuses me to see so many people that have no idea that sisters are a very good army, easily in the top third.)


Who, exactly, are you playing against that can project over 10 BS4+ S6+ AP3+ Ignores Cover shots from multiple sources? It's really gotta be more like 15+ shots unless your opponents have loaded dice.

Have you considered Rhinos or Razorbacks? Denying line of sight?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/17 02:24:46


   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 gwarsh41 wrote:
 Yarium wrote:
Light: Your new codex is just around the corner. You'll probably be given the Eldar/Necron treatment.

Dark: You'll need to cough up some cash to do the upgrades.

Twilight: A lot of armies are facing the same issue right now against Necrons and Eldar and the new power level of codexes. If you don't take tournament-quality lists (like White Scars), you're likely not going to have a wortwhile game against even the basic versions of these foes unless they're doing a lot to hamstring themselves. So, you're not alone.


I wouldn't be so sure on that. When the 6th ed books were coming out similar things were said. Remember when CSM and DA were top dog? For like, 3 months these codex were good, and everyone was excited that the following books would be on the same level... instead Daemons, Eldar andTau followed, putting DA and CSM in the dirt, so then everyone thought the power level would stay high, Marines came out, and we started seeing a slow decrease in power until we hit the 7th ed Necrons and the Craftworlds book. Unfortunately it seems that power level is still just by chance, or maybe whim.


no one was ever happy with codex CSMs beyond people who where saying "... maybe GW's balancing the 'dxes now?"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Horrific Howling Banshee





If you want the extra save with space marines you could play iron hands which have feel no pain (6+)

Wh40k Eternal Crusade Referral Number: EC-J79JWAXML7RYP 
   
Made in gb
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




niv-mizzet wrote:
An issue I face in the lion's share of games I play nowadays.

Opponent: okay so I shoot this unit here with (picks up fist full o' dice) this many shots. I have no problem hitting you. You're only t4? Even your badass 200+ point characters? Okay I wound on 2's. This many wounds, no cover, no armor, invulns only.

Me: "K." (I pick up squad of marines.)

Opponent: ok now this squad is shooting at that... (And so on.)

I occasionally proxy as sisters (is that like occasionally cross dressing?) just to get 6+ saves and more bodies while losing virtually nothing of value. Games are a lot easier when I do that. (It amuses me to see so many people that have no idea that sisters are a very good army, easily in the top third.)


Welcome to the Guard son. The amount of stuff which will kill us on 2+ while ignoring cover, armour, capable of HP stripping our vehicles and doubling out multi wound models has been a thing for a while now. Kinda nice to see others share the pain if I'm honest.
   
Made in au
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Yes, but marines of all flavours (and sisters) pay a significant points premium for their 3+ save that they rarely get to use. When you start paying 13 ppm for your guardsmen, let me know.

Stormtroopers know the pain all too well I suspect.

 Peregrine wrote:
What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
 
   
 
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