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I thought that infiltrate was worded so that if you went second on turn one you could then assault? Thats what it was in 6th. I don't have my rulebook on me but has this changed?

Yeah they inexplicably decided to change that in 7th. Now it is your first turn that you can't assault.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Infiltrate rule state "their first turn". scout states "first game turn"

Which really means the same thing ad you cannot assault in your opponents first player turn.

Iirc first player turn is naturally forbidden from charging(can't provide rules quote as i am not at home). So spiders cannot assault if the eldar player goes first(this is for balance).

Then infiltrators cannot assault their first player turn(so even if you go second they cannot assault).

Scouts cannot assault in the fist game turn(so same thing really)

Anything coming in from reserves cannot assault the turn they come in(this includes deepstrike which also specifically prohibits assault for things that get to deepstrike from the table. This is also a balance thing as anyone who has ever had a gunline army getting assaulted by ork commandos with snikrot in their own table edge can atest, sucks.)

This used to be the case, but not anymore, the total ban on first turn charging was removed. It's difficult, but not impossible to achieve.

Orks in a trukk, move the trukk 6", Move the boys 6", Boarding plank adds an additional 2", so they'd need to roll a 10 for a full distance charge.

Similarly, the new howling banshees can charge 1st round out of a raider(easiest), or wave serpent. 6 inch vehicle movement, 6 inch disembark, +3 inch acrobatic to charge range = needing a 9 to get to the enemy deployment zone. Not terribly difficult with fleet, assuming your opponent set up right on the line.

Scarabs can with spyders pumping out a few out in front at the start. Keeping the 2" unit coherency and scarabs are 32mm bases 1.26 inches this in effect "adds" 3.25 inches to the scarabs first move of 12" for a 15.25" movement needing a 9+ on charge range to get to the opponent if they were on the line or a little further back.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Similarly, the new howling banshees can charge 1st round out of a raider(easiest), or wave serpent. 6 inch vehicle movement, 6 inch disembark, +3 inch acrobatic to charge range = needing a 9 to get to the enemy deployment zone. Not terribly difficult with fleet, assuming your opponent set up right on the line.

Howling Banshees can't embark upon a Land Raider since Eldar and Space Marines are not Battle Brothers. Also Wave Serpents are not Assault Vehicles, so they can't assault on the same turn that they disembark. So neither of these scenarios are legal.

He means a dark elder raider - not a land raider.

That makes a lot more sense. I have no clue why I defaulted to land raider. Whoopsies.

This used to be the case, but not anymore, the total ban on first turn charging was removed. It's difficult, but not impossible to achieve. 

When was this the case? Certainly not 6th Ed. Not 5th where basically everyone could first turn charge nearly anywhere on the board (marines being the only capable of doing it with their entire army). So when exactly?

 goblinzz wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Infiltrate rule state "their first turn". scout states "first game turn"

Which really means the same thing ad you cannot assault in your opponents first player turn.

Iirc first player turn is naturally forbidden from charging(can't provide rules quote as i am not at home). So spiders cannot assault if the eldar player goes first(this is for balance).

Then infiltrators cannot assault their first player turn(so even if you go second they cannot assault).

Scouts cannot assault in the fist game turn(so same thing really)

Anything coming in from reserves cannot assault the turn they come in(this includes deepstrike which also specifically prohibits assault for things that get to deepstrike from the table. This is also a balance thing as anyone who has ever had a gunline army getting assaulted by ork commandos with snikrot in their own table edge can atest, sucks.)

This used to be the case, but not anymore, the total ban on first turn charging was removed. It's difficult, but not impossible to achieve.

Orks in a trukk, move the trukk 6", Move the boys 6", Boarding plank adds an additional 2", so they'd need to roll a 10 for a full distance charge.

At least back to third there has NEVER been a ban on first turn charges.

Getting a first turn charge off is quite easy to do when your opponent moves the goal line closer to you by making scout or infiltrate moves.
Since not everyone is aware that there is no blanket ban on first turn charges, this can actually happen, even if you have the initiative.

I charged some units my opponent hat kindly positioned about 6-7" forward of his deployment zone via infiltrate with my Khorne Puppies.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Spellbound wrote:
Someone mentioned that terminators in a dedicated landraider with scout could assault turn 1 because the landraider scouted and the terminators didn't.

Got news for you: Unless your landraider moved outside your deployment zone and the terminators were left behind, then they, too, made a scout move and you aren't able to charge turn 1 with them.

Awesome, so they can only redeploy 6" even inside the vehicle?

No, wait. That's not the actual rule. The actual rule is that the terminators make no scout redeploy move at all. Their deployment - inside the land raider - remains the same. It is only the lr that scouts, rules wise. If you disagree, cite a real rule.

How about the Scout rule on page 171? I went to check it, just in case there was some slight ambiguity that you might have been working off of. There isn't. In fact, it's so perfectly clear that the Liber Inquisitor with Terminators in a Land Raider cannot scout and charge on turn one that I can't even be bothered to string together a proper argument. Just go read the rule for yourself.


As for Scouts in a Speeder, they can't charge on turn one either. But, interestingly, not because of Scout (USR). Since the LSS has the Scouts USR on its own, instead of gaining it from its owning unit, I guess you could make a rules lawyery argument that it could scout move and then the Scouts inside could charge. But, the Scouts have the Infiltrators special rule, and an oft overlooked part of that rule is that it is not optional. Infiltrators always set up last, and cannot charge on turn one. You can't choose to "not infiltrate."

I have read it. You remain incorrect. See the tenets.

You have stated a rule disallows something, and can't be bothered to actually support it. I have done.

Unless you refute using an argument , your concession in this topic is accepte. Please mark your post hywpi as it is not the actual written rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have stated a rule disallows something, and can't be bothered to actually support it. I have done.

did i miss where you stated the pg & para of your rules support ?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

At least back to third there has NEVER been a ban on first turn charges.

In 6th edition, there was a ban on charging on the first player turn. So, if you went first, you couldn't charge. If you went second, no such ban applied. It's in the 6th edition rulebook, but I can't be bothered to look it up while I'm at work.

Betray - no, there was not such a rule.

Kambien - the Scout rules themselves. Nowhere within the Scout rules does it state that a transport Scouting means the unit inside does so. I am making the negative assertion - there is a lack of something - and that is all that is required. Tehy are making the positive assertion, that the Scout rules DO state the unit inside a transport also scouts (and they are ignoring that therefore the vehicle may only redeploy 6"...), and as such are required to post positive proof of this. Which they cant be bothered to do.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

At least back to third there has NEVER been a ban on first turn charges.

In 6th edition, there was a ban on charging on the first player turn. So, if you went first, you couldn't charge. If you went second, no such ban applied. It's in the 6th edition rulebook, but I can't be bothered to look it up while I'm at work.

It isn't there. It was near impossible to achieve with your opponent doing something dumb (like deploying exactly opposite your sideways Raider or scouting/infiltrating towards your assault unit). However there was no blanket ban on assaulting player turn 1 and I don't believe there ever has been. In first and 2nd Ed Ibjust don't think anything for near fast enough (as you charged in the movement phase like fantasy) but even then there was no blanket ban.

Necrons can do it pretty easy.

Take 2-3 canpotek spyders and put a unit of scarabs on the front of your deployment.
Each spider can, in the movement phase, create a new scarab base that is within 6" of the spyder and in coherency with the unit the base is added to. You might want to move the spyders before doing this.

Spyder 1 creates a base in front of the unit, in coherency. The base itself is about 1,5 inches so that's 3.5" in total
Spyder 2 does the same but places the new base at maximum coherency range with the first base. Now you have gained 7".
Spyder 3 does the same but places the last base in maximum coherency with the second base. The far end of the last base will now be 10,5" away from the original unit, before it's even moved.

So you move 12" ignoring terrain (because you're a beast) and now your front scarab base is 22,5" from your deployment zone. Average charge of 7" gives you just under 30" theart range first turn. Now I'm not sure whether they got fleet or not.

Beasts have fleet, from memory

Isnt the Blitz Brigade the many battlewagons formation? In which case they have a specific rule disallowing units inside from assaulting.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Isnt the Blitz Brigade the many battlewagons formation? In which case they have a specific rule disallowing units inside from assaulting.

Yes it is which is a clear indication that normally you can assault out of a scouting assault transport. As we all know GW doesn't write named special rules that never serve a function.

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Isnt the Blitz Brigade the many battlewagons formation? In which case they have a specific rule disallowing units inside from assaulting.

Yes it is which is a clear indication that normally you can assault out of a scouting assault transport. As we all know GW doesn't write named special rules that never serve a function.

Apart from when they do.

(In case others miss the reference - Fling has this idea that every rule, later changed to every named special rule, MUST have a function, in relation to the Kharybdis Fist of Khorne Formation. This Special rule DOES havea function, unfortunately it simply duplicates one the vehicle already has - Assault Vehicle.

Hey MODs, if Nos asked you to remove my post, he doesn't deserve his name, and if you guys did it on your own because I called him names, then you don't understand the reference and I apologize you thought I was name calling. It's clan Nosferatu's clan flaw to have Repugnant x3 in vampire the masquerade.

But, yes Nos I was. I forgot that formation had a caveat. Because I, like several others, assumed if your vehicle scouts, so do you and assumed they were just reminding us. So when I recalled the formation last night I only remembered the only additional rule that made them special which was scouts.

But yeah, the fact that gw put that caveat on our BlitzBrigade only further supports your stance.

Its possible. Dawn of War deployment. There should be a 24" buffer between both sides.

if both sides are hugging the 24" line, one unit moves 6 inches and disembarks a squad of guys that puts them 12" away from the opposite player. if youre an Ork with a trukk or battlewagon and a boarding plank that gives you an extra 2" you would only need 10" to make it into combat.

also, your opposing player is SMs, he drop pods a squad in your deployment zone turn one, on your turn one, barring youre within range you can assault them on your first turn.

its not illegal to charge a unit in turn one, its just hard to do it.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

At least back to third there has NEVER been a ban on first turn charges.

In 6th edition, there was a ban on charging on the first player turn. So, if you went first, you couldn't charge. If you went second, no such ban applied. It's in the 6th edition rulebook, but I can't be bothered to look it up while I'm at work.

It isn't there. It was near impossible to achieve with your opponent doing something dumb (like deploying exactly opposite your sideways Raider or scouting/infiltrating towards your assault unit). However there was no blanket ban on assaulting player turn 1 and I don't believe there ever has been. In first and 2nd Ed Ibjust don't think anything for near fast enough (as you charged in the movement phase like fantasy) but even then there was no blanket ban.

Yeah, my mistake. I was thinking about the ban on infiltrators charging only applying to the first player turn, and not the second player.

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
Its possible. Dawn of War deployment. There should be a 24" buffer between both sides.

if both sides are hugging the 24" line, one unit moves 6 inches and disembarks a squad of guys that puts them 12" away from the opposite player. if youre an Ork with a trukk or battlewagon and a boarding plank that gives you an extra 2" you would only need 10" to make it into combat.

also, your opposing player is SMs, he drop pods a squad in your deployment zone turn one, on your turn one, barring youre within range you can assault them on your first turn.

its not illegal to charge a unit in turn one, its just hard to do it.

Just as a side note - you must be MORE than 24"apart so even a 6"move, 6"disembark and 12"charge makes it out of range by a minor amount as you must be MORE than 24"apart. Orks with a plank can still do it of course if they roll an 11"charge (6+6+11+2=25).

 Massaen wrote:

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
Its possible. Dawn of War deployment. There should be a 24" buffer between both sides.

if both sides are hugging the 24" line, one unit moves 6 inches and disembarks a squad of guys that puts them 12" away from the opposite player. if youre an Ork with a trukk or battlewagon and a boarding plank that gives you an extra 2" you would only need 10" to make it into combat.

also, your opposing player is SMs, he drop pods a squad in your deployment zone turn one, on your turn one, barring youre within range you can assault them on your first turn.

its not illegal to charge a unit in turn one, its just hard to do it.

Just as a side note - you must be MORE than 24"apart so even a 6"move, 6"disembark and 12"charge makes it out of range by a minor amount as you must be MORE than 24"apart. Orks with a plank can still do it of course if they roll an 11"charge (6+6+11+2=25).

Last time I checked, the plank capped at 12". I might be misremembering.

There is no where in the rules that say you must be more than 24 apart. If both sides toe the line in the deployment map, they are within 24 inches of each other.

@greytalon666 - you are right! My bad. 6th edition said you had to be more than 24"apart.

7th says -

We've found that 12"away from the centre line works best; this ensures armies will start at least 24"apart, which makes first turn charges hard to achieve while giving you enough space on a typical table to deploy your army.

This alone implies that turn 1 charges are possible!

Indeed, 7th is the first time that "standard" deployment has been 24", not 24.0...01"

5th edition had some very easy first turn charges, if you were on table quarters, as the minimum distance was only 17ish"