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What about the Firefight rules Squig, how are they going? I've heard from someone actively trying to test them that there has been very little official response to comments/suggestions

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
It always confused me that they did not enlist Alessio, with additional help from the excellent rules committee, to adapt KOW into a sci-fi rules set. KOW is almost universally lauded and also scales very well whatever the size of the game. Obviously it would need a fair degree of work but surely it would have avoided some of the rumoured issues with Warpath. That said hopefully Mantic do not rush Warpath and can make a good rule set out of it eventually, there are a fair few great sci-fi games out there so it needs to be up to snuff to compete.

The KoW RC basically got Alessio moved off KoW - I don't think the working relationship is there TBH.

Alessio did the first two WP rules, the first of which was KoW in space and it didn't stick.

2 of the KoW RC are on the WP RC, that hasn't helped.

Warhams-77 wrote:

What Mantic releases, will be their work. They will get made responsible for it. You dont like the mechanics and think they dont work. Tell them, they have the chance to fix it now.

of course Mantic writes their rules and it is their fault if they do not work.

I told them already in alpha and early beta. Or at least I tried and on some points the RC members agreed, things did not change because of other (not related to the game design/mechanic) reason.
The difference is, while during the KoW development they ignored all those who screamed that it should be more like Warhammer, and now they listened to those who wanted it to be more like 40k.

Is it others people fault?
partly, because all those who write on the forum have an influence, and those who scream the loudest (and want it to be a 40k light) are also those who will never actually play the game because it is different.

Could someone run down the scifi Mantic rulesets and their intended scale/scope for those of us who don't follow too closely? Deadzone is skirmish judging by the boardgame and previous kickstarters... from the sound of it, warpath is the mass battle 40k equivalent... but now there is a mention of a "firefight"?

Warhams-77 wrote:
I assume Mantic is not forced by anything or anyone but actually they have been given a fair chance to surprise us with a good SciFi ruleset of their own. They have been financed for this already. Looking at Terminator Genesis and Gates of Antares for example, we can see good, modern scifi rules are achievable with the right effort and talent.

Indeed! They seem to be absent from the Warpath project, however, in favor of the "just do whatever, it doesn't matter how it ends up as long as we can put it on the shelves" approach that Mantic sometimes takes. I think I've said this before, but Warpath reads like it was written by someone whose entire gaming experience comes from 40k, Deadzone and Warpath 1-2. It is a mishmash of these things and these things only, completely uninformed by anything else in the industry. It reminds me of when I tried to design a space naval game at age 15 with Warhammer Fantasy as my only previous gaming experience. It was clunky, obviously, because I didn't know how to do things other than the way Warhammer Fantasy did them. Warpath 3 is trying to replicate the gameplay of 40k using only the paradigms of Warpath 1-2 and Deadzone.

 kodos wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:

What Mantic releases, will be their work. They will get made responsible for it. You dont like the mechanics and think they dont work. Tell them, they have the chance to fix it now.

of course Mantic writes their rules and it is their fault if they do not work.

I told them already in alpha and early beta. Or at least I tried and on some points the RC members agreed, things did not change because of other (not related to the game design/mechanic) reason.
The difference is, while during the KoW development they ignored all those who screamed that it should be more like Warhammer, and now they listened to those who wanted it to be more like 40k.

Is it others people fault?
partly, because all those who write on the forum have an influence, and those who scream the loudest (and want it to be a 40k light) are also those who will never actually play the game because it is different.

The Warpath 2.0 development (about 3 years ago) was plagued by this sort of thing, lots of people with strong opinions about what it should be like, ironically at the time it was mostly complaints that it was too much like 40k and needed to be more abstract.

I actually still think that 2.0 (also written by Alessio) is the best iteration of Warpath so far: http://gallery.mailchimp.com/e62f0c35454fa3ba687404d69/files/Warpath_II_Rules.pdf

It doesn't try anything too ambitious or fancy, and focuses on playability. I managed to play some games with it, and they were fun. While objectives and orders are nice and all, I wonder if they're an extra layer that isn't needed.

Firefight is shaping up nicely at least, I think it's a little easier to learn since the rules are a bit more intuitive and certain things are handled a little better than in the mass battles game.

I don't think I've ever read Warpath 2. It was probably released during the time when I was completely disgusted by Mantic.

I played all of them and I am not sure which one I would rate best.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think I've said this before, but Warpath reads like it was written by someone whose entire gaming experience comes from 40k, Deadzone and Warpath 1-2. It is a mishmash of these things and these things only, completely uninformed by anything else in the industry. [....] It was clunky, obviously, because I didn't know how to do things other than the way Warhammer Fantasy did them. Warpath 3 is trying to replicate the gameplay of 40k using only the paradigms of Warpath 1-2 and Deadzone.

I once asked them about this because I got the same expression and Stew(?) answered that he never actually played 40k

 warboss wrote:
Could someone run down the scifi Mantic rulesets and their intended scale/scope for those of us who don't follow too closely? Deadzone is skirmish judging by the boardgame and previous kickstarters... from the sound of it, warpath is the mass battle 40k equivalent... but now there is a mention of a "firefight"?

Here you go:-

Deadzone 5-20 models per side, played on a gridded mat
Firefight 20-70 models per side, every model matters
Warpath 30-150 models per side, base unit is a fire team

 Maccwar wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Could someone run down the scifi Mantic rulesets and their intended scale/scope for those of us who don't follow too closely? Deadzone is skirmish judging by the boardgame and previous kickstarters... from the sound of it, warpath is the mass battle 40k equivalent... but now there is a mention of a "firefight"?

Here you go:-

Deadzone 5-20 models per side, played on a gridded mat
Firefight 20-70 models per side, every model matters
Warpath 30-150 models per side, base unit is a fire team

To give it context, in terms of size

Deadzone is Necromunda or Infinity

Firefight is Bolt Action

Warpath is Flames of War with the minis blown up to 28mm

Thanks for the rundowns. It looks like I was mistaken about warpath being the 40k equivalent as firefight looks like it from the info above.

Well, Firefight is the equivalent of 40k from 15 years ago.

40k games got much bigger since (or they would be if the rules didn't promote expensive large models; consider how much cheaper most infantry got). Warpath aims to handle about the same sized game as modern 40k, but reduces the workload by grouping models into larger elements.

Still waiting on my pledge. :/

I've contacted support, should turn up soon.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Well, Firefight is the equivalent of 40k from 15 years ago.

Very true.. very sad and very true.

edit: Just to be clear, that's commentary on the current greedhammer $40,000 rules and not mantic.

I remember 3rd edition of 40k being fun until people figured out about Rhino Rush...

Yeah, it's weird though, I can't even work out what I want from Warpath.

 Compel wrote:
Yeah, it's weird though, I can't even work out what I want from Warpath.

I'd like a satisfying sci-fi wargame experience at around the model count I remember from 40K 2e - a handful of squads and a vehicle or two.

 kodos wrote:
Is it others people fault?
partly, because all those who write on the forum have an influence, and those who scream the loudest (and want it to be a 40k light) are also those who will never actually play the game because it is different.

I see. Sad to hear there is so much influence from vocal forum folks.

Thanks Scarletsquig for putting things into perspective.

Will Mantic expand the background with the new rulebook? Was more fluff part of the 3.0 kickstarter?

There's a whole book being released just for background material, the Source book in the Warpath Kickstarter.

 Psychopomp wrote:

 Compel wrote:
Yeah, it's weird though, I can't even work out what I want from Warpath.

I'd like a satisfying sci-fi wargame experience at around the model count I remember from 40K 2e - a handful of squads and a vehicle or two.

Say hello to Gates of Antares

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:


Say hello to Gates of Antares

I originally backed GoA on KS, but kinda glad it didn't work out then, because the minis turned out like throwbacks from a mid 80s Ral Partha or Citadel catalogue, which is so incredibly far away from an aesthetic that I enjoy that I haven't even been able to consider the rules - but given that it's a derivative of Bolt Action, I'm sure they're good.

On the other hand, I quite enjoy the more 'modern' cyberpunk/corporate dystopian look of the Warpath minis (though there are still some of those 80s citadel touches that snuck in), but the big concern is whether the rules are going to stand up.

I detested the entitled approach they took with the BoGA kickstarter. Having to work actually for their money now has resulted in a better game, I think. I appreciate that it makes at least a mediocre effort at representing some actual futuristic aspects such as sharing LOS through wifi rather than being just your standard medieval wargame with fancy guns tacked on.

The faction I most like the look of for Antares is still all-metal, so that game isn't going to happen for a while.

During the Warpath KS, I ordered a lot of the 20 for $20 plastics for Deadzone (I can't believe there was no way to get plastic basic enforcer sprues in the DZ:I KS.) But I also pledged for a GCPS battleforce and a Plague battleforce.

What I want out of Firefight is to be able to have lots of fun games and scenarios using just those battleforces, plus any specialists for Deadzone I might want to throw in. I want something akin to pre-codices 3e 40K, but without the kruft of the 40K system, but at a game size of 40K 2e. But, despite the comparisons, I want a ruleset that is NOT 40K. Something simple and elegant, like KoW, where the complexity unfolds on the tabletop, not during army selection.

Also, I'd love to hear the announcement of a Shattered Empires style book, because my massive Eldar army just doesn't fit into Asterians well. And if I don't find a good alternative use soon, the damned thing's going on eBay. Over 4000pts (by 5e reckoning) painted and the cases haven't been opened since 2012. I'm only holding onto it all out of nostalgia, and I need something to do with it or it needs to go.

I imagine you probably could play BtGOA using Mantic factions. I suspect Freeborn rules could be used with just about anything, especially a mix of GCPS and Enforcers.

As for Eldar in Warpath, I think they might work best as a proxy for Enforcers. You just may not be able to fit both Banshees and Scorpions in since their profiles kind of overlap.

I'm actually against GW proxy army lists in Warpath. It works well in KoW, but one fantasy ratman is pretty much like another. 40k has a much more defined aesthetic and you can't just transplant it to another IP without damage to both sides.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm actually against GW proxy army lists in Warpath. It works well in KoW, but one fantasy ratman is pretty much like another. 40k has a much more defined aesthetic and you can't just transplant it to another IP without damage to both sides.

Pffft. I don't even necessarily want to play Eldar in Warpath. I just want a list where using Banshees for this unit and Scorpions for that unit won't confuse my opponent.

One thing I've learned since leaving the GW bubble behind is that the 'defined aesthetic' of 40K isn't that defined. Just a broad array of "super soldiers in power armor" that come in flavors such as Viking, Werewolf, Roman, or Vampire. Then there's the mysterious aliens, the manga aliens, the not-Xenomorph aliens, the colonial marines with WWI tanks...pretty much the most 'defined aesthetic' components 40K has is the corruption of Chaos and space orcs as soccer hooligans instead of Tolkien's bred-for-war soldiers. And one could argue that the corruption of Chaos has derived to a standardized Faust-as-told-by-Lovecraft deal.

"Damage to both sides"? That's an odd perspective. 40k's rules are such an absolute clusterfeth at this point in time that I'm really looking forward to a ruleset that lets me use all my 40k stuff in it without too much pain. Shattered Imperium(s) would be a godsend, assuming that WP can get a coherent, balanced, ruleset together (so good luck there, as well!)

Have you tried one page 40k? I haven't had much actual play but it seems really rather nice. Altogether a much more balanced, streamlined ruleset than the name implies (or at least implied to me). If you're looking for a KoWishly quick-to-play option that'll fit the bill quite nicely IMO.

 Azazelx wrote:
"Damage to both sides"? That's an odd perspective. 40k's rules are such an absolute clusterfeth at this point in time that I'm really looking forward to a ruleset that lets me use all my 40k stuff in it without too much pain. Shattered Imperium(s) would be a godsend, assuming that WP can get a coherent, balanced, ruleset together (so good luck there, as well!)

"To allow customers to use their X-wing and STAW models together, we wrote a new human faction into the Star Wars universe whose ships look exactly like Star Trek ships."

Does the setting get richer or poorer for it?

I tried the one page rules and they are nice but for my taste a little bit to simple.
They the AoS kind of 40k some people want to have, but I would prefer something more extended


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
"Damage to both sides"? That's an odd perspective. 40k's rules are such an absolute clusterfeth at this point in time that I'm really looking forward to a ruleset that lets me use all my 40k stuff in it without too much pain. Shattered Imperium(s) would be a godsend, assuming that WP can get a coherent, balanced, ruleset together (so good luck there, as well!)

"To allow customers to use their X-wing and STAW models together, we wrote a new human faction into the Star Wars universe whose ships look exactly like Star Trek ships."

Does the setting get richer or poorer for it?

If it would be Armada and not X-Wing, it would work and improve the game (to have at least 4 factions and not just 2) while for X-Wing it is a bad idea because ST is about capital ships and not fighters

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Psychopomp wrote:

 Compel wrote:
Yeah, it's weird though, I can't even work out what I want from Warpath.

I'd like a satisfying sci-fi wargame experience at around the model count I remember from 40K 2e - a handful of squads and a vehicle or two.

Say hello to Gates of Antares

And/or Bolt Action.

Also as Scarlet Squig said above (and provided a link) you can get a pretty decent game from the Warpath 2.0 rules (the ones Alessio worked up--- not the current version---if it's still called 2.0).