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On paper, Skitarii do huge amounts of damage to Necrons (or anything), even in a Decurion.

.89 x .67 x .5 x .5 x 30 = 4.47 dead necron warriors from 10 radium carbines with BS7.

 Akar wrote:
When playing a non Decurion game, I make a case for Unbound, since the Reclamation legion is my favorite thing, and Unbound is the only way I can get it in w/o going Decurion.

Just wanted to point this out (and forgive me if someone else already has) But since the Reclamation Legion is a formation, you CAN run a Battle Forged list with them inside it. The only requirement for a Battle Forged list is that all models belong to a Detachment or to a Formation. That's really it. You can have a battle forged list of all formations, you can just tack on a Reclamation Legion to a CAD. It all works, no need for Unbound. (though, really, Unbound doesn't give you much besides a random extra model or the ability to turbo spam one thing, the latter which is not worth the whining. lol)

As for the topic at hand, to the OP, try and make a challenge of how janky you can make your lists and see if you can still win games. Use combinations of unit you would NEVER consider. Worse comes to worse, it sucks but you found something to play against when it comes to the really casual lists. But you might also find some cool combos you can use in regular games. And for variety, bring out your Nids. I know I would want to trade off anyways just because I like variety, but it would also help against new players or really casual players. It doesn't have to be every game, but shake things up.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Kiggler wrote:
Whats a person supposed to do when their strongest weapons bounce off of basic infantry.

My advice: concentrate on volume of fire rather than high strength/low AP fire. You'll probably do better forcing a high volume of saves, rather than a low volume of saves at a -1 RP penalty.

Considering how an IG gunline firing 120 Las gun shots (the very definition of "volume of fire") only puts one or two wounds on a set of Harvest Wraiths, this really isn't much of a help, either.

Well, the Decurion was the start of the New Paradigm (or maybe the Dark Eldar Carnival of Pain was?). Followed by the Harlequin thingie, Eldar Warhost, Khorne Daemonkin whatchamacallit, and Skitarii thingumbob.

Has anybody tried running these things against each other?

I haven't seen Necrons fight the new Eldar just yet, nor Skitarii, might see that happen this weekend, but I've seen them face Harlequins and KDK and tabled them both. Still haven't seen a Decurion lose a game yet in person.

I'd wouldn't say running Dec-Crons to be casual at the moment.
Several games I've had with them have resulted in wipe out victory's. Best option for a casual list would take either CAD or unbound and do something silly there. Aside from it being fun chances are it'll still do alright. (Also just go unbound Canoptek lists, many many many scarabs)

I have never played against Necrons but everything I've read here is quite depressing. The example of the battle cannon fail to kill has struck me, precisely because I have always thought that nothing cannot be settled by a 120mm shell direct hit.

Sounds like the only way to end a fight with Necrons is being tabled. I am not a sore loser but I don't want to waste my time. It's not Necron players fault but it's just the way it goes.

Going back to some earlier comments about the decurion, and the downright dirty nasty things you can do with it. My opponents who get demoralized are already bummed enough when facing a destroyer cult without stalker. If I tossed a triarch stalker in my decurion, I think heads would roll. Though running CAD and brining out those dirty tricks might change the pace a little.

In my past few games, my necrons haven't tabled, or even come very close to tabling my opponent. I have been able to control the table well, and not die. It seems like my opponents are most demoralized when say, a battle cannon hits warriors in the open, and some don't die.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I haven't seen Necrons fight the new Eldar just yet, nor Skitarii, might see that happen this weekend, but I've seen them face Harlequins and KDK and tabled them both. Still haven't seen a Decurion lose a game yet in person.

Apparently a lot of people think Skitarri are ridiculous, as well as the new Admech coming out. But, against Crons? I don't see them fairing too well. And I played my Eldar bud with the new Dex, he played stuff like Shuricannon bikes, Wraithknight with D cannons, Bunch of Aspect warriors, and Serpents. He hit me pretty hard, but once the Wraithknight went down, he slowly got tabled by turn 5. Granted, that was with using a very good list, not something really casual, as I was expecting a closer game.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I haven't seen Necrons fight the new Eldar just yet, nor Skitarii, might see that happen this weekend, but I've seen them face Harlequins and KDK and tabled them both. Still haven't seen a Decurion lose a game yet in person.

Apparently a lot of people think Skitarri are ridiculous, as well as the new Admech coming out. But, against Crons? I don't see them fairing too well. And I played my Eldar bud with the new Dex, he played stuff like Shuricannon bikes, Wraithknight with D cannons, Bunch of Aspect warriors, and Serpents. He hit me pretty hard, but once the Wraithknight went down, he slowly got tabled by turn 5. Granted, that was with using a very good list, not something really casual, as I was expecting a closer game.

Skitarii are an army that, on their own, are powerful but with majorly critical weaknesses. Their squad special weapons, doctrina rules, and a couple other things are absolutely absurdly powerful, and the Skitarii Vanguard are everything I've always wanted IG Stormtroopers to be, but even better. The big weakness is the lack of transports, that's what's lost every game I've seen Skitarii lose so far, though of course, allies rules allow them to work around this. With the new AdMech stuff, they'll probably be even more powerful. I'm not entirely sure how they'll do against Necrons, it will be interesting to see. I haven't seen Necrons and the new Eldar play yet in person unfortunately.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I haven't seen Necrons fight the new Eldar just yet, nor Skitarii, might see that happen this weekend, but I've seen them face Harlequins and KDK and tabled them both. Still haven't seen a Decurion lose a game yet in person.

Apparently a lot of people think Skitarri are ridiculous, as well as the new Admech coming out. But, against Crons? I don't see them fairing too well. And I played my Eldar bud with the new Dex, he played stuff like Shuricannon bikes, Wraithknight with D cannons, Bunch of Aspect warriors, and Serpents. He hit me pretty hard, but once the Wraithknight went down, he slowly got tabled by turn 5. Granted, that was with using a very good list, not something really casual, as I was expecting a closer game.

Skitarii are an army that, on their own, are powerful but with majorly critical weaknesses. Their squad special weapons, doctrina rules, and a couple other things are absolutely absurdly powerful, and the Skitarii Vanguard are everything I've always wanted IG Stormtroopers to be, but even better. The big weakness is the lack of transports, that's what's lost every game I've seen Skitarii lose so far, though of course, allies rules allow them to work around this. With the new AdMech stuff, they'll probably be even more powerful. I'm not entirely sure how they'll do against Necrons, it will be interesting to see. I haven't seen Necrons and the new Eldar play yet in person unfortunately.

Eldar vs. Crons is a much closer matchup, even with stronger lists, but in my experience, Crons still outlived them and pushed them off the table.

This might be a long shot - Though I think GK are actually the best matchup vs crons outta the old codex.

Basically all my firepower is AP4 with pretty good volume - and most of it is ignore cover too. Defensively most of my stuff is 2+ save too. So I'm ignoring their basic save and usually taking my 2+ against their weapons.

NDK can 1 shot a wraith or any other MC in their books.

Cleansing flame out the buttocks. Lot's of AP4 torrents. Heavy psycannons and ap3 in CC with just about everything in the army and the ability to go ID (which brings the 4+ down to a 5+ right?.)

I'd try it out - fortunately there is only a few Necron players in my area so I havn't been able to try it out yet. Only played them with dark angels so far lol. I did win the game but only because it was a warrior spam list and I run lots of land speeders and dakka banner with bikes and a knight titan. If their were wraiths in that army I would have been tabled turn 2.

Is It Possible To Run A "Casual" Decurion?

Short answer, no.

The decurion is made of many small formations, and each of these formations contain at least some units who are viable, if not competitive.

The lack of ability to choose weaker units as a whole means that it is hard to make a decurion list more casual. Once the said units are improved by various buffs, the decurion ensures that even a poorly made cron force with little focus will still perform better than many of its peers.

Perhaps the only way to make a casual decurion imo is to take the core choices, and then spend all the other points on C'tan.

If a decurion list that spams walking MCs who receive no reanimation protocols could not be considered casual, then I doubt anything else could be.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Is It Possible To Run A "Casual" Decurion?

Short answer, no.

The decurion is made of many small formations, and each of these formations contain at least some units who are viable, if not competitive.

The lack of ability to choose weaker units as a whole means that it is hard to make a decurion list more casual. Once the said units are improved by various buffs, the decurion ensures that even a poorly made cron force with little focus will still perform better than many of its peers.

Perhaps the only way to make a casual decurion imo is to take the core choices, and then spend all the other points on C'tan.

If a decurion list that spams walking MCs who receive no reanimation protocols could not be considered casual, then I doubt anything else could be.

I agree that the core Reclamation Legion is the best way to go for making a casual/friendly Decurion. But a lot of the Necron formations are not that OP, with the exception of the Canoptek harvest and the Destroyer Cult + Triarch Stalker.

C'tans, especially the Nightbringer, are IMO an severely underrated unit. They may not be as strong as other choices, but they provide significant benefits and are either a giant fire magnet or a nasty surprise for your opponent.

As far as balance goes, why shouldn't every unit in the codex be at least somewhat viable? It's the sign of solid internal balance.

The reason people are still complaining about Necrons is because the new Eldar codex has distracted the internet's collective consciousness. The best counter to Necrons that I have seen is to have a dedicated CC "hammer" that can shred through Necron infantry. Wraiths are a bigger problem though; weight of fire seems to be the best answer to them.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Is It Possible To Run A "Casual" Decurion?

Short answer, no.

The decurion is made of many small formations, and each of these formations contain at least some units who are viable, if not competitive.

The lack of ability to choose weaker units as a whole means that it is hard to make a decurion list more casual. Once the said units are improved by various buffs, the decurion ensures that even a poorly made cron force with little focus will still perform better than many of its peers.

Perhaps the only way to make a casual decurion imo is to take the core choices, and then spend all the other points on C'tan.

If a decurion list that spams walking MCs who receive no reanimation protocols could not be considered casual, then I doubt anything else could be.

I agree that the core Reclamation Legion is the best way to go for making a casual/friendly Decurion. But a lot of the Necron formations are not that OP, with the exception of the Canoptek harvest and the Destroyer Cult + Triarch Stalker.

C'tans, especially the Nightbringer, are IMO an severely underrated unit. They may not be as strong as other choices, but they provide significant benefits and are either a giant fire magnet or a nasty surprise for your opponent.

As far as balance goes, why shouldn't every unit in the codex be at least somewhat viable? It's the sign of solid internal balance.

The reason people are still complaining about Necrons is because the new Eldar codex has distracted the internet's collective consciousness. The best counter to Necrons that I have seen is to have a dedicated CC "hammer" that can shred through Necron infantry. Wraiths are a bigger problem though; weight of fire seems to be the best answer to them.

Wraiths are the biggest problem.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Wraiths are a bigger problem though; weight of fire seems to be the best answer to them.

Pure volume of fire is hardly a counter against reanimation Wraiths (doesn't 120 lasgun shots only hurt one Wraith?). The sweet spot is mid strength volume of fire but even that is pretty paltry. I think the best answer is something like SS TWC with high strength, fearless, and their own 3++.

Wraiths are just one of those things that are just too absurdly resilient against everything. High quality shooting bounces off the 3++, and even S8/9 weapons will not ID them. Small arms like lasguns and bolters simply can't be leveraged in suffucient numbers to get through T5, multiple wounds, a 3++ and RP. As noted, the sweet spot is stuff like Autocannons, but even they aren't spectacularly effective.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Wraiths are just one of those things that are just too absurdly resilient against everything. High quality shooting bounces off the 3++, and even S8/9 weapons will not ID them. Small arms like lasguns and bolters simply can't be leveraged in suffucient numbers to get through T5, multiple wounds, a 3++ and RP. As noted, the sweet spot is stuff like Autocannons, but even they aren't spectacularly effective.

I can get behind that. My Tau friend used nothing but Crisis Suits and Hazard Suits in my 3rd game with the new dex. Tons, and I mean tons, of S5-S7 Twin-linked shooting. Took him 2 full turns of shooting his whole army at the Wraiths. One was still left at the end of the game.

If the rules as is are failing you then try homeruling it.

Zagman's written a pretty cool game-wide errata in Proposed Rules, maybe give that a shot.

 Dakkamite wrote:
If the rules as is are failing you then try homeruling it.

Zagman's written a pretty cool game-wide errata in Proposed Rules, maybe give that a shot.

The only issue with that, is getting everyone at my shop to adopt those rules.

 Dakkamite wrote:
If the rules as is are failing you then try homeruling it.

Zagman's written a pretty cool game-wide errata in Proposed Rules, maybe give that a shot.

The problem with Zagman's proposed errata is that it is just as bad as the core rules GW puts out, but in different ways.

For example, did you know that Flyers can't Jink anymore, as that would be claiming a cover save, which isn't allowed anymore? Or that Scatbikers at S5 are much more balanced than S6?

His Necrons one is almost as bad. With what he's proposing, C'tan spam will be the best option for Necron cheesemongers (220 points for a Trans C'tan? Really?)

I don't want to get on the guy so hard, as he did put a lot of effort into compiling those errata and they address some of the fundamental imbalances in the game, but I would take GW writing rules over him.

Fan rules/House rules should be an FAQ to fix the small details, not changing things wholesale.

Apart from some questionably OP formations, Necrons are fine balance-wise. People just haven't figured out effective strategies for playing against them because the internet has been freaking out about Eldar.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
If the rules as is are failing you then try homeruling it.

Zagman's written a pretty cool game-wide errata in Proposed Rules, maybe give that a shot.

The problem with Zagman's proposed errata is that it is just as bad as the core rules GW puts out, but in different ways.

For example, did you know that Flyers can't Jink anymore, as that would be claiming a cover save, which isn't allowed anymore? Or that Scatbikers at S5 are much more balanced than S6?

His Necrons one is almost as bad. With what he's proposing, C'tan spam will be the best option for Necron cheesemongers (220 points for a Trans C'tan? Really?)

I don't want to get on the guy so hard, as he did put a lot of effort into compiling those errata and they address some of the fundamental imbalances in the game, but I would take GW writing rules over him.

Fan rules/House rules should be an FAQ to fix the small details, not changing things wholesale.

Apart from some questionably OP formations, Necrons are fine balance-wise. People just haven't figured out effective strategies for playing against them because the internet has been freaking out about Eldar.

Asides from how bonkers the Canoptek formation can be, I can slightly agree. Even as a Necron player, it can pretty intense to bring even my Immortals down, and I question that they shouldn't have both the buffs of Relentless AND Move Through Cover. Marines can't even charge after using their Bolters, so at the very least they should be able to charge afterwards. I dunno, Tacticals need major fixing, but this is the wrong topic to delve on that.

Especially Relentless though, because I can take Wraiths with ID Guns with 24 range and 3++/4+++. Manage to find points for a Destroyer Lord and it almost isn't even fun.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I haven't seen Necrons fight the new Eldar just yet, nor Skitarii, might see that happen this weekend, but I've seen them face Harlequins and KDK and tabled them both. Still haven't seen a Decurion lose a game yet in person.

We've played Warhost, Decurion, Harlequin + Dark Eldar, Harlequin + Eldar, and Skitarri + BA, with, I think, pretty decent lists. The Skitarii are pretty freaking amazing. A lot of their units consistently outperform mathhammer theorycrafting, at least so far. I don't mean lucky dice; I mean, the special rules high mobility (Dragoons), flexibility, and of course totally awesome troop weaponry just make for a great take-all-comers army.

Necron are hard-wish to kill, but I daresay we've kind of gotten used to them. Eldar have so much new stuff we will be exploring them for months to come. At least we get to see some eldar models that we've shelved for some years back on the tabletop.

None of them have had a 100% win rate.

One thing curious, we have been getting together more frequently (and playing more 40k) to try out new stuff with new units dropping on us like pod spam. Also trying more hardcore games (as opposed to arranged scenarios) with optimal units to better test the new units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Asides from how bonkers the Canoptek formation can be, I can slightly agree. Even as a Necron player, it can pretty intense to bring even my Immortals down, and I question that they shouldn't have both the buffs of Relentless AND Move Through Cover. Marines can't even charge after using their Bolters, so at the very least they should be able to charge afterwards. I dunno, Tacticals need major fixing, but this is the wrong topic to delve on that.

Especially Relentless though, because I can take Wraiths with ID Guns with 24 range and 3++/4+++. Manage to find points for a Destroyer Lord and it almost isn't even fun.

While I don't disagree Immortals are tough to kill (well hey they are called immortals right?), measuring them against tactical marines isn't helpful, because everyone who plays space marines thinks tacticals are pretty bad ;(

 Talys wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I haven't seen Necrons fight the new Eldar just yet, nor Skitarii, might see that happen this weekend, but I've seen them face Harlequins and KDK and tabled them both. Still haven't seen a Decurion lose a game yet in person.

We've played Warhost, Decurion, Harlequin + Dark Eldar, Harlequin + Eldar, and Skitarri + BA, with, I think, pretty decent lists. The Skitarii are pretty freaking amazing. A lot of their units consistently outperform mathhammer theorycrafting, at least so far. I don't mean lucky dice; I mean, the special rules high mobility (Dragoons), flexibility, and of course totally awesome troop weaponry just make for a great take-all-comers army.

Necron are hard-wish to kill, but I daresay we've kind of gotten used to them. Eldar have so much new stuff we will be exploring them for months to come. At least we get to see some eldar models that we've shelved for some years back on the tabletop.

None of them have had a 100% win rate.

One thing curious, we have been getting together more frequently (and playing more 40k) to try out new stuff with new units dropping on us like pod spam. Also trying more hardcore games (as opposed to arranged scenarios) with optimal units to better test the new units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Asides from how bonkers the Canoptek formation can be, I can slightly agree. Even as a Necron player, it can pretty intense to bring even my Immortals down, and I question that they shouldn't have both the buffs of Relentless AND Move Through Cover. Marines can't even charge after using their Bolters, so at the very least they should be able to charge afterwards. I dunno, Tacticals need major fixing, but this is the wrong topic to delve on that.

Especially Relentless though, because I can take Wraiths with ID Guns with 24 range and 3++/4+++. Manage to find points for a Destroyer Lord and it almost isn't even fun.

While I don't disagree Immortals are tough to kill (well hey they are called immortals right?), measuring them against tactical marines isn't helpful, because everyone who plays space marines thinks tacticals are pretty bad ;(

Being a Necron player mostly, I can tell you how bad they are. Merely having used them a lot is just a bonus.
They could be an easy fix, but Lord knows GW won't do anything about it.

Two things

1) to make a game more casual take a small legion in you decurion and one small auxiliary choice, like death marks (750pts). All other formations take as discreet detachments rather than as decurion. Everliving won't apply which needs them nicely.

2) 15 immortals dropping out of a night scythe and rapid firing will pretty much kill anything. They are deadly. With added buffs from phyrran rules superb.

Ffyllotek wrote:

2) 15 immortals dropping out of a night scythe and rapid firing will pretty much kill anything. They are deadly. With added buffs from phyrran rules superb.

15 immortals is 255 points and scythe is 130. That's Imperial Knight points -- essentially there's tons of stuff in the game that's 385 points that can "pretty much kill anything". The question is, does it kill 385 points, and the next round, does it survive getting hit back?

I think at 12" range, that's 5 unsaved wounds. Which isn't bad, but there's stuff that will survive that, and there are other units in the game at nearly 400 pts that will do just as much or more damage. Kataphron Destroyers and Breachers come to mind immediately; Wraithguard with either cannons or scythes obviously... you see what I'm getting at

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
If the rules as is are failing you then try homeruling it.

Zagman's written a pretty cool game-wide errata in Proposed Rules, maybe give that a shot.

The problem with Zagman's proposed errata is that it is just as bad as the core rules GW puts out, but in different ways.

For example, did you know that Flyers can't Jink anymore, as that would be claiming a cover save, which isn't allowed anymore? Or that Scatbikers at S5 are much more balanced than S6?

His Necrons one is almost as bad. With what he's proposing, C'tan spam will be the best option for Necron cheesemongers (220 points for a Trans C'tan? Really?)

I don't want to get on the guy so hard, as he did put a lot of effort into compiling those errata and they address some of the fundamental imbalances in the game, but I would take GW writing rules over him.

Fan rules/House rules should be an FAQ to fix the small details, not changing things wholesale.

Apart from some questionably OP formations, Necrons are fine balance-wise. People just haven't figured out effective strategies for playing against them because the internet has been freaking out about Eldar.

Actually, I'd be all for completely trashing ALL of GW's rules and rewriting from the ground up. I don't think Zagman goes nearly far enough.

I don't know about you, but I don't know which list I'm playing ahead of time. Do you? If so, then your "effective strategies" are nothing more than list tailoring for a foe. Trying playing BA and being blind as to your next opponent. In that framework, Necrons are not remotely fair.

What, isn't maximum Immortal unit size 10?

Alcibiades wrote:
What, isn't maximum Immortal unit size 10?

Yeah, I'm sure it is.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
If the rules as is are failing you then try homeruling it.

Zagman's written a pretty cool game-wide errata in Proposed Rules, maybe give that a shot.

The problem with Zagman's proposed errata is that it is just as bad as the core rules GW puts out, but in different ways.

For example, did you know that Flyers can't Jink anymore, as that would be claiming a cover save, which isn't allowed anymore? Or that Scatbikers at S5 are much more balanced than S6?

His Necrons one is almost as bad. With what he's proposing, C'tan spam will be the best option for Necron cheesemongers (220 points for a Trans C'tan? Really?)

I don't want to get on the guy so hard, as he did put a lot of effort into compiling those errata and they address some of the fundamental imbalances in the game, but I would take GW writing rules over him.

Fan rules/House rules should be an FAQ to fix the small details, not changing things wholesale.

Apart from some questionably OP formations, Necrons are fine balance-wise. People just haven't figured out effective strategies for playing against them because the internet has been freaking out about Eldar.

Actually, I'd be all for completely trashing ALL of GW's rules and rewriting from the ground up. I don't think Zagman goes nearly far enough.

I don't know about you, but I don't know which list I'm playing ahead of time. Do you? If so, then your "effective strategies" are nothing more than list tailoring for a foe. Trying playing BA and being blind as to your next opponent. In that framework, Necrons are not remotely fair.

I wouldn't say I know the specific list ahead of time, but most of my games at my local shop consist of two people agreeing to a game and creating a list right there, at the same time. Or, someone will have a very specific list ahead of time and ask who wants to play it. I'm not for list tailoring, but knowing what opponent or army you're fighting and building a general idea list isn't a bad thing.