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I'm just curious what everyone's opinion is on going "back in time" if an opponent forgot to do something.

My general guidelines are that if it was just a minute or two ago, and nothing that's happened since then would be affected or could lead to different choices in your "back in time" decisions, then yeah it's fine. Everything that's been done since then still happens, you just go back and alter the one thing.

I tend to be a lot more generous if it's something that's non-optional. For example, say shooting casualties inflicted a Ld test... it's not optional, so we can go back a lot further in time, maybe even past something that could be effected by the morale roll.

A grey zone for me is that is that I always start my shooting phase before I remember this newfangled Psycher phase. Rolling that warp charge die isn't an option, even if using powers is, so I kind of expect a little more generosity if I've already shot a unit (clearly I can't go back in time and cast prescience on THAT unit for re-rolls, though).

Anyway, is my version loose for people? Is it more common to play a kind of chess "finger off the model = too late" type ruling?

I often let someone go back as long as its the same phase. So if someone forgot to fire a particular weapon on a vehicle, and have since shot with another unit, they can go back and do it. I will usually not allow people to go back to previous phases.

I usually don't care if we haven't moved on to resolving things in a later phase yet.

It depends what it is, if its something silly or wargear related then no.

If its something game mechanics related or potentially game changing, then if it was the last action I tend to allow it!

I don't think there is a rule for this written anywhere so its up to you at the end of the day .

If going back wouldn't cause issues due to things that have happened since the forgotten thing supposed to happen, I generally won't have a problem with it.

That may depend on my opponent's attitude, however...

For me it's entirely case by case.

If you forgot to do your psyker phase and you're on to your assault phase, I'm afraid that's too late. Remembering at the beginning of your shooting phase (only shot one or two units), then I would consider it.

Also, it depends on our relationship.
For example, if I've never met you, or you're my friend (and in between, above and beyond), I'll be incredibly lenient, and most likely allow you to go back (see above)

If I have witnessed you being a complete ass in some way*, then it's less likely, because you're an ass.

*in some way: by this I mean you either;
- Bullied someone (inside or outside of a public place)
- Took a tourney list/broken BS list against someone who you've agreed to have a friendly game with.
- The above, but against someone who you know is still learning
- Intentionally cheating someone

I'm sure you get the idea.

For me it is situational. Trial games, go for it. Tournament, depends on the type of player you are, and if the event was able to give one of the two of us a greater chance to get more points and move up rankings* or not.

If I knew I was pretty far behind, I would gladly allow you to try and get more points to better your position. If the game was going totally one sided in my favor, would likely also allow it to make it more fun.

Generally the first mistake in a game. If you keep forgetting the same stuff (i.e. cast powers), then it's your loss.

With new players we're much more lenient.

Casual pick up games then yes, rewind a reasonable amount.

Tourny games and serious competition? No, your responsible for remembering your wargear, rules interactions, shield facings, psychics, etc.

die toten hosen wrote:
Tourny games and serious competition? No, your responsible for remembering your wargear, rules interactions, shield facings, psychics, etc.

Again, this is somewhat situational.

Forgetting to shoot with a unit, or some other voluntary action missed in a tournament? Sure, not allowing backsies in that situation is perfectly reasonable.

Forgetting a mandatory action, like rolling for reserves or the like? It's the responsibility of both players to ensure that the rules are being followed. If you choose to enter a tournament without being familiar enough with all of the rules of the game to keep up, you can hardly expect that level of perfection from your opponent.

If its in the same phase ( or just started new phase ) i'd let them go back if it was something optional. IE i forgot to move XX unit . If its something that is required of them , perhaps to the start of the turn without them redoing all the other things they did

I'd allow my opponent to fix a mistake, as long as three conditions are met:

1) It is possible to go back and change the mistake without interfering with later events that depended on the mistake. If you forgot to move a unit before saying "psychic phase" but nothing has happened yet going back to move the unit won't disrupt anything. But if you want to go back and shoot at a unit that has already been charged by one of your units I'm not going to agree to moving all of the models back to their original positions, rolling new charge distances, re-rolling overwatch, etc.

2) You aren't making the decision based on information that you didn't know at the time. If I've just revealed my clever strategy that is going to win me the game I'm not going to let you go back and make a change that avoids my trap. It negates my superior play, and it encourages you to make "mistakes" in the future to try to get extra information before making a decision.

3) It has been a reasonable amount of time since the mistake. If you realize that you forgot to move a unit as you're picking up the dice to roll your first unit's shooting that's ok, just go back and do it and try to be more careful next time. But if you've already finished your whole turn before you realize that you forgot to move that unit then it's too late. At some point you just have to accept that what's done is done and try to overcome the mistake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
Forgetting a mandatory action, like rolling for reserves or the like? It's the responsibility of both players to ensure that the rules are being followed. If you choose to enter a tournament without being familiar enough with all of the rules of the game to keep up, you can hardly expect that level of perfection from your opponent.

And of course if you deliberately allow your opponent to forget something just because it's a mistake in your favor you're cheating.

Greatly depends on the opponent, their experience level with the army, and if it's an event. Many people commonly forget the psychic phase, so I tend to be more forgiving on that; people also tend to get muddled in the assault phase and forget some charges or to resolve certain combats.

I will also happily rewind time, if feasible, for 'must-do' events like Reserve rolls or fall back moves.

I once went an entire game without shooting with my vindicare because i hid him so well, i forgot he was even there

For the purposes of performing how we practice, in all games we just have same-phase time travel. It's your responsibility to make sure nothing is forgotten before you leave the phase, but anything in that phase like forgotten fnp and such is fair game.

 jokerkd wrote:
I once went an entire game without shooting with my vindicare because i hid him so well, i forgot he was even there

My friend just got the new assassins from the board game and hasn't painted them up yet. He infiltrated the one that can get with in an inch of other guys and flamed my unit. Making matters worse was it was one of my rare fully painted units. My turn comes around and I take said unit and move them up the board and charge a different assassin, bringing with me the assassin that flamed my guys. Neither one of us realized it until I was looking at how many models I had and figuring out how many attacks I should have, and obviously I came up with one extra guys worth of attacks and then it dawned on us. After a few minutes of laughter we just played it that I was in combat with both the assassins and the one got the benefit of the charge. We thought about going back and just have me charging the one that had infiltrated because my shooting did no wounds and had we remembered that the assassin was there that is what I would have done but the before mentioned outcome was to hilarious.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
I once went an entire game without shooting with my vindicare because i hid him so well, i forgot he was even there

My friend just got the new assassins from the board game and hasn't painted them up yet. He infiltrated the one that can get with in an inch of other guys and flamed my unit. Making matters worse was it was one of my rare fully painted units. My turn comes around and I take said unit and move them up the board and charge a different assassin, bringing with me the assassin that flamed my guys. Neither one of us realized it until I was looking at how many models I had and figuring out how many attacks I should have, and obviously I came up with one extra guys worth of attacks and then it dawned on us. After a few minutes of laughter we just played it that I was in combat with both the assassins and the one got the benefit of the charge. We thought about going back and just have me charging the one that had infiltrated because my shooting did no wounds and had we remembered that the assassin was there that is what I would have done but the before mentioned outcome was to hilarious.

To be fair. That sort of infiltration is bang on the fluff for the callidus.

I go by if we proceed to the next phase they can rewind if nothing has yet happened in that phase but only if it does not involve movement.

I'd class myself as still farely new (I normally play monthly and have only done for about 9 months).

There's so many rules and things to remember that I regularly forget things. I play Guard so orders are the biggest thing I forget. I usually forget about the Platoon Commander's orders or that I paid for every squad to have Voxes and then forget to re-roll failed orders.

Another is after a farely convoluted Assault phase (perhaps two separate charges from my opponent into my blob of 30 + priest) then I've usually either forgetten warhymns, or even once everyones attacked we've forgotten to resolve the assault and don't remember until the next assault phase and realise nobody ran!

personally, i think it's a bit of a dick thing not to allow the person to shoot that extra special weapon, or move/run a unit they clearly planned to.
but as you all say, if its psychic phase, IG orders, or some other multiplier that you've forgotten that could possibly have changed the outcome of your dice, then it's too late and you just learn from it.

then again, I've never played competitively and can imagine some people will play rules as written no matter what.

Friendly or league game: all the time.

First 2 games of a tournament? Sure when it really doesn't affect anything. Top table and last game? My opponent was being a huge stickler but nice and professional about it. But it worked both ways for us in that game, he forgot, I forgot more. It was 8 hours in at that point!

I fall in line generally with the above sentiments. I'll give an anecdote as an example.

At a tournament last week, I was playing a fellow I've played before, and he's forgotten things in the past. So, when he forgot some things--like moving with a unit after starting his shooting phase, and pivoting a vehicle so it could have LoS with both sponsons--I let him go for it. The fourth time he forgot something, though, I told him it was too late and that he couldn't go back in time.

I think a policy of leniency is best, but I also think it needs to stop at some point, for the better of the forgetful player. I think the lesson will be better-remembered if he DIDN'T get to to what he wanted, so that next game he recalls that he messed up and makes sure to move that one unit in the backfield, or check LoS with his vehicles during the Movement Phase.

Those are all optional activities though - arguably easier to enforce. Mandatory actions, such as rolling for psychic phase, or for reserves, are equal in responsibiltiy on both players to enforce.

 jokerkd wrote:
I once went an entire game without shooting with my vindicare because i hid him so well, i forgot he was even there

I've done exactly the same thing, compounded by the fact that I'd embellished his base to match my terrain.

How far I'll back up depends heavily on the situation.

In a tourney:
For messing up within a phase, I'm sorry, but you follow the rules. If you shoot with a unit, then switch to another unit, then try to switch back to finish shooting that unit, then I'm only going to allow it once, and only if you're being a good sport and/or are new to the game. I'll verbally warn you that it is not the proper way to do things, and I'm only allowing it the one time. That sets the precedence for the game.

If you claim you're switching to another phase, and roll any dice during that phase, then it's too late to switch back. So if you say "okay now assault phase - oh wait, I forgot to shoot this unit", then that's fine. You hadn't actually done anything in the assault phase yet. But if you say "okay, now the assault phase. I charge with my Helbrute and get (roll) an 8 inch charge. Oh wait, I forgot to shoot my Obliterators." then sorry, but your Obliterators failed to shoot.

In casual games:
I prefer to stick to the rule of "you rolled it, you committed to it", but I'm more willing to accept rewinding even after dice had flown. In the above example, I'd let the Obliterators shoot. If it destroyed what the Helbrute would have charged at, then they have to reroll the charge range. If it didn't, then the Helbrute completes the charge as if nothing changed.

It depends how much would have to be unravelled to allow the correction. If it would change an entire chain of events, then I'd usually say to leave it be. If you forgot to move or fire something within your own turn, I'm soft enough to say you can finish up.
Plate spinning is difficult, and I'll forgive actually forgetting something. Regretting a decision? Tough.

 jokerkd wrote:
I once went an entire game without shooting with my vindicare because i hid him so well, i forgot he was even there

Looks like he was taking a nap

 Vector Strike wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
I once went an entire game without shooting with my vindicare because i hid him so well, i forgot he was even there

Looks like he was taking a nap

He had probably spent two months setting up that perfect position for a kill shot on a reclusive enemy commander...and then a couple bozos careen by with their unrelated skirmish!

 insaniak wrote:
If going back wouldn't cause issues due to things that have happened since the forgotten thing supposed to happen, I generally won't have a problem with it.

That may depend on my opponent's attitude, however...

All this!

A nice side-note: If I give you a go back on something, don't turn me down later. :(

If an opponent has an entire army of psykers and forgets the entire psychic phase, saying, "Ok, I'm going to shoot at X with Y." I will politely remind him that we should roll psychic dice first before the shooting phase. If I also forget, and he remembers halfway through his shooting phase, I will absolutely allow him to go back and cast psychic powers, but nothing that will alter rolls that were already made in the shooting phase. So, basically, I'd only allow blessings and maledictions to be cast. If the shooting phase had only just started, I'd let them perform the entire phase.

Letting someone shoot 1 unit, then remember they forgot the psychic phase, only for me to say, "Nope, you should have remembered" seems like cheating. It's both our responsibility to ensure the rules are followed, which includes playing each phase.

 insaniak wrote:
If going back wouldn't cause issues due to things that have happened since the forgotten thing supposed to happen, I generally won't have a problem with it.

That may depend on my opponent's attitude, however...

Nailed it. I forgot to shoot four lootas that had almost run off the board. At the end of my turn I suddenly remembered, and since it wouldn't change anything that had happened my opponent said go ahead. And typically I extend the same courtesy to my opponents.

In a tournament setting I expect less leniency however, and would have left those shots unfired.