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Well the prices of the products here in the U.S. went up. Guess my FLGS was not just making things up. Hope you all got your defense line before the price increase

I read about the price increases a while back, and I just find it baffling that people there equate the high prices of an item with high profits. I mean, there was a looney tunes cartoon that had a better grasp of economics.

I seem to recall it involving two mice being lectured on economics while avoiding Sylvester the cat. The professor mouse was typically the one thwarting the cat, but the primary principle he outlined is the one that I think applies best here: slim profit and huge volume.

You keep the prices as low as you can while still maintaining profit, and also making sure to keep the prices competitive. The company does not make as much with each sale, but it makes more sales. More importantly, potential wargamers won't be turned off by the prices as often, which means more customers buying models, which means more profits.

At least, that's the idea in theory.

KranfordTButcher wrote:
I read about the price increases a while back, and I just find it baffling that people there equate the high prices of an item with high profits. I mean, there was a looney tunes cartoon that had a better grasp of economics.

I seem to recall it involving two mice being lectured on economics while avoiding Sylvester the cat. The professor mouse was typically the one thwarting the cat, but the primary principle he outlined is the one that I think applies best here: slim profit and huge volume.

You keep the prices as low as you can while still maintaining profit, and also making sure to keep the prices competitive. The company does not make as much with each sale, but it makes more sales. More importantly, potential wargamers won't be turned off by the prices as often, which means more customers buying models, which means more profits.

At least, that's the idea in theory.

GW seems to be relying on a core of dedicated customers to weather the increasing costs of the game. The days of ubiquity with most people playing 40k at a game store are starting to wither away, and what will be left is a much smaller group that is willing to pay much higher prices. This allows GW to cut more and more of its ancillary staff to the point we are at now where the company largely consists of the board, regional managers, and the one-man stores. Of course, I think the one-man store is an awful concept, but GW seems to think it is enough to get their hardcore group to purchase.

Still, even if this model does work (until the hardcore group ages out or literally dies off), I think it is a sad state of affairs compared to the days of previous editions of the game.

KranfordTButcher wrote:
I read about the price increases a while back, and I just find it baffling that people there equate the high prices of an item with high profits. I mean, there was a looney tunes cartoon that had a better grasp of economics.

I seem to recall it involving two mice being lectured on economics while avoiding Sylvester the cat. The professor mouse was typically the one thwarting the cat, but the primary principle he outlined is the one that I think applies best here: slim profit and huge volume.

You keep the prices as low as you can while still maintaining profit, and also making sure to keep the prices competitive. The company does not make as much with each sale, but it makes more sales. More importantly, potential wargamers won't be turned off by the prices as often, which means more customers buying models, which means more profits.

At least, that's the idea in theory.

You haven't actually read GW's financials have you?

Ideally a company will take numerous factors into consideration when considering how much to charge for a product; overhead (cost to produce, distribute and support the product), how much the market will bear (most companies do intensive market analysis to figure this out), the size of the target consumer group, etc.

Addressing the thread:
The problem with GW is that they literally have no idea who they're selling their product to. On the one hand, they have upper management comments to the effect that they are producing toys for teenage boys but on the other, they are pricing their product at t level that only working professionals can afford. People often refer to "Timmy" and how this mythical child's parents seem to be willing to shell out massive amounts of money for their child's whimsical, brief foray into wargaming. As a parent who could potentially fit this supposed mold, with a six-figure income, I would never spend the amounts of money GW asks for their product on my child's whims while also supporting their other activities (sports, clubs, etc). I personally, don't think these parents exist and as a parent who lays out large sums of money each month for my child, I always laugh at the inanity of such comments.

Price elasticity is a real concept that very much affects the bottom lines of companies and I believe that GW has hit their threshold, possibly two years ago if not before as evidenced by financial results and dropping sales volume. A company like GW that finds market research to be "otiose" will have no real idea why volume is dropping and will just work to squeeze as much profit out of each sale as is possible to do so. They're just going to see that volume is dropping and then make an assumption from that, (i.e. they own everything, lets make more stuff or people don't like the rules, let's just let them do whatever they want and take the rules out of the equation.)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Accolade wrote:


GW seems to be relying on a core of dedicated customers to weather the increasing costs of the game. The days of ubiquity with most people playing 40k at a game store are starting to wither away, and what will be left is a much smaller group that is willing to pay much higher prices. This allows GW to cut more and more of its ancillary staff to the point we are at now where the company largely consists of the board, regional managers, and the one-man stores. Of course, I think the one-man store is an awful concept, but GW seems to think it is enough to get their hardcore group to purchase.

Still, even if this model does work (until the hardcore group ages out or literally dies off), I think it is a sad state of affairs compared to the days of previous editions of the game.

GW has exacerbated this with unfavorable trade conditions and the move to making product direct only. They've poisoned the well with a growing number of LGSs; less coverage and exposure to product means less sales and less recruitment into the GW ecosystem. It is impossible for GW stores to cover every area, especially in North America, and they're pushing LGSs slowly away to maximize their profit margin, making the decline in sales worse. I honestly don't understand why GW managment seem to believe that a sale lost to a LGS automatically will equate a sale that is made directly with them instead of just a lost sale (i.e., hey, we don't carry 40K but there's a cool game of Infinity being played in the back right now, why don't you go check it out?).

You know that there are actually no items that are DIRECT only, right? The items are WEB only, meaning that if your store so chooses, they can order from GW UK by placing their order kn the web. They receive the same discount and the same margin as any other product, except it takes longer to ship (local shipments are like 1-2 days).

In our area, at least, stores get free shipping from the UK once a mont; beyond that they must pay for shipping (perhaps waived with a large enough order, I don't know, but the web only catalog isn't popular or large enough that most stores would have huge web order).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With all the chatter about free rules and such -- I guess if this is your thing, it's a big plus. For me, I'm not even sure I could get through a rulebook that was rules only, no fluff, electronic. That would just feel more like a textbook than entertainment. But to each their own.

Personally, for games and worlds I like, including WarMachines and 40k and D&D, I really enjoy refreshed source books (and expect to pay for them when that happens). Seeing the painting of an Eldar Craftworld was pretty cool, and I'm willing to give GW some none for a book that has both am entertainment reading and game source material aspect. I wouldn't want a new rulebook refresh every few months, but a 2-3 year cycle for my faction of choice is just fine by me. Since I can't imagine playing and modeling the same game pieces after 3 years without change, it doesn't even bother me with a nerf/buff cycle. Eventually, you accumulate most all the units if you're attached to a faction anyhow, and then you just get to play with different models. Per faction, he new release of models is actually quite slow. Again, if that's not your thing, lots of other alternatives make life good!

I actually agree with that Talys, about the rules. I don't really like reading them like that, but I do think they should be available in that way, if just to lower the price barrier for the game. Personally I would still buy the books, but the entry cost just for the rules for 40k is silly. I can get tournament level forces in other games for the same price as the rules in 40k.

 Talys wrote:
You know that there are actually no items that are DIRECT only, right? The items are WEB only, meaning that if your store so chooses, they can order from GW UK by placing their order kn the web. They receive the same discount and the same margin as any other product, except it takes longer to ship (local shipments are like 1-2 days).

In our area, at least, stores get free shipping from the UK once a month; beyond that they must pay for shipping (perhaps waived with a large enough order, I don't know, but the web only catalog isn't popular or large enough that most stores would have huge web order).

Web only, direct only, whatever. *apply handwavium* The fact is that by moving more of their existing catalog to Web only, they are able to cut the amount of margin that LGSs can eke out of selling the product thereby reducing their appetite to even try. If you reduce my ability to make a profit, why should I work hard to make money for you?

Then there's limited releases and the inability to buy something because they only made 300 of it and it sold out while you were on holiday. I've even heard of rationing new releases to LGSs (a LGS owner who posts on Dakka, Mikhaila, has said as much). It's blindingly stupid for a retail company to limit availability of their retail product, not even the highest echelon of luxury brands refuse to sell their goods to people willing to hand them money.

 Talys wrote:
You know that there are actually no items that are DIRECT only, right? The items are WEB only, meaning that if your store so chooses, they can order from GW UK by placing their order kn the web. They receive the same discount and the same margin as any other product, except it takes longer to ship (local shipments are like 1-2 days).

Unless Canada is different from the US, this is untrue. Direct-only items have a huge difference in margin compared to regular stock for Independents. It's something like 40% vs. 10% for Direct-only items. Yes, the FLGS can order it for you just like any other weekly stock item, but given their overhead, they're virtually selling it at cost when they sell it at retail price.

Most wargame rulebooks consist of rules without fluff.

I can see if you are a big 40K fan, you are used to the rulebook being filled out with fluff, but even GW eventually realised this was unpopular with a lot of players and split the rules into an actual rulebook and a fluff book for 7th edition. Unfortunately they as usual did it wrong and made it so you had to buy both books even if you only wanted one of them.

So I didn't.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Most wargame rulebooks consist of rules without fluff.

I can see if you are a big 40K fan, you are used to the rulebook being filled out with fluff, but even GW eventually realised this was unpopular with a lot of players and split the rules into an actual rulebook and a fluff book for 7th edition. Unfortunately they as usual did it wrong and made it so you had to buy both books even if you only wanted one of them.

So I didn't.

I will give GW credit in one place with the small rulebook. The bigger version had the fluff at the back so when removed, the page numbers were the same in both the small and big versions. Looking at you Warmachine!

SOrry to go back so many pages on the discussion but you guys post to fast and you know at work Im not supposed to post on forums

Thanks for the pic Talys, the online pictures did give the impression that the GW one was smaller than the PP minis. I stand corrected they are equally on the expensive side and I should know because I buy from both companies.

Material does make a difference in therms of the final price but still both are a bit rich.

On the rules debate, I do feel that the free rules PDF option with no artwork and fluff will spread the game further into the gaming sphere, a thing GW is lacking. GW slow detachment from competitive or playtested gaming is costing them a fortune IMHO. Rules are the main catalyst to push people into getting multiples of certain models, without it only a minority of collectors will collect them.

Someone at GW needs to understand that without an enjoyable game you lose a considerable number of wargamers. WFB is a prime example, I mean no news about the new edition and the game is errr dead.

 agnosto wrote:

 Talys wrote:
You know that there are actually no items that are DIRECT only, right? The items are WEB only, meaning that if your store so chooses, they can order from GW UK by placing their order kn the web. They receive the same discount and the same margin as any other product, except it takes longer to ship (local shipments are like 1-2 days).

In our area, at least, stores get free shipping from the UK once a month; beyond that they must pay for shipping (perhaps waived with a large enough order, I don't know, but the web only catalog isn't popular or large enough that most stores would have huge web order).

Web only, direct only, whatever. *apply handwavium* The fact is that by moving more of their existing catalog to Web only, they are able to cut the amount of margin that LGSs can eke out of selling the product thereby reducing their appetite to even try. If you reduce my ability to make a profit, why should I work hard to make money for you?

Then there's limited releases and the inability to buy something because they only made 300 of it and it sold out while you were on holiday. I've even heard of rationing new releases to LGSs (a LGS owner who posts on Dakka, Mikhaila, has said as much). It's blindingly stupid for a retail company to limit availability of their retail product, not even the highest echelon of luxury brands refuse to sell their goods to people willing to hand them money.

I'm sorry, but did you totally not ready my answer? :(

Web only trade discount = 40%
Local distribution order trade discount = 40%
No shipping charge on first UK order for each month.

Same profit. So they are not being screwed; it's just that the product -- largely less popular and older stuff that GW doesn't have a lot of -- takes longer to ship because they warehouse it all in one place globally.

FLGS have the same access to limited releases as GW stores. When it sells out, it sells out. They aren't disadvantaged in any way.

Your comment of "the highest echelon of luxury brands" refusing to sell their goods to people willing to hand them money, is irrelevant to GW, and it's untrue in any case. Oprah Winfrey was famously declined the opportunity to purchase a $40,000 (or some other absurd amount) handbag in a store in Switzerland, despite clearly being able to afford it, as she offered her Amex Black card. In the "highest echelon" of luxury brands, there are MANY limited run items, because exclusivity dramatically increases value (like a dress that there's only a small number, or perhaps even one, of). With respect to GW, clearly, if they thought people would keep buying Plasma Obliterators and Deathstorm boxes and Void Shield Generators, they'd keep making them. But their experience is that these items become like Shrine of the Aquilla -- after the initial launch, the sales plummet, there's no reason for players to buy a second one, and it just becomes a stocking nightmare to keep at a couple dozen warehouses worldwide, or ship from the UK, or produce another small run of.

So instead, they make a single run, and a few years later, they'll do another run to catch players who want it. These are clearly marked as limited run, so if you see it on your email, buy it or have a friend buy it, or whatever O.O. Most of the items that are limited run aren't even that good, from a game perspective. I suspect a lot of it (like Deathstorm) is just getting rid of a bazillion old sprues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_Armyman wrote:

 Talys wrote:
You know that there are actually no items that are DIRECT only, right? The items are WEB only, meaning that if your store so chooses, they can order from GW UK by placing their order kn the web. They receive the same discount and the same margin as any other product, except it takes longer to ship (local shipments are like 1-2 days).

Unless Canada is different from the US, this is untrue. Direct-only items have a huge difference in margin compared to regular stock for Independents. It's something like 40% vs. 10% for Direct-only items. Yes, the FLGS can order it for you just like any other weekly stock item, but given their overhead, they're virtually selling it at cost when they sell it at retail price.

This is not true. I have seen the order pages myself, with my very own eyes. I have even seen INVOICES from GW. By the way, I switched stores where I buy most of my GW stuff because one particular store was very accommodating with web orders, and gave me the same discount on web as standard orders, as long as I could wait for their next free shipping cycle. GW even sends freebies, and if you have a nice store, the store will pass them on to you. For example, I got a nifty Cult Mechanicus pin. I believe someone is just telling you 10% for web orders to compensate for potential shipping charges, but who knows.

If I urgently want something (which is really, never for an old catalog item or some bits or bases) they've offered to sell me the product at my normal discount, plus whatever shipping charges are on the invoice from GW. Which I think is pretty damn fair.

Canada does all its ordering for local stuff from the US (for instance, on Memorial day, we couldn't get orders in), so I don't see why it would bee any different for trade policies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Thanks for the pic Talys, the online pictures did give the impression that the GW one was smaller than the PP minis. I stand corrected they are equally on the expensive side and I should know because I buy from both companies.

Material does make a difference in therms of the final price but still both are a bit rich.

Thanks, and I'm with ya -- this was pretty much my point

 Talys wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Talys wrote:
You know that there are actually no items that are DIRECT only, right? The items are WEB only, meaning that if your store so chooses, they can order from GW UK by placing their order kn the web. They receive the same discount and the same margin as any other product, except it takes longer to ship (local shipments are like 1-2 days).

In our area, at least, stores get free shipping from the UK once a month; beyond that they must pay for shipping (perhaps waived with a large enough order, I don't know, but the web only catalog isn't popular or large enough that most stores would have huge web order).

Web only, direct only, whatever. *apply handwavium* The fact is that by moving more of their existing catalog to Web only, they are able to cut the amount of margin that LGSs can eke out of selling the product thereby reducing their appetite to even try. If you reduce my ability to make a profit, why should I work hard to make money for you?

Then there's limited releases and the inability to buy something because they only made 300 of it and it sold out while you were on holiday. I've even heard of rationing new releases to LGSs (a LGS owner who posts on Dakka, Mikhaila, has said as much). It's blindingly stupid for a retail company to limit availability of their retail product, not even the highest echelon of luxury brands refuse to sell their goods to people willing to hand them money.

I'm sorry, but did you totally not ready my answer? :(

Web only trade discount = 40%
Local distribution order trade discount = 40%
No shipping charge on first UK order for each month.

Same profit. So they are not being screwed; it's just that the product -- largely less popular and older stuff that GW doesn't have a lot of -- takes longer to ship because they warehouse it all in one place globally.

FLGS have the same access to limited releases as GW stores. When it sells out, it sells out. They aren't disadvantaged in any way.

Your comment of "the highest echelon of luxury brands" refusing to sell their goods to people willing to hand them money, is irrelevant to GW, and it's untrue in any case. Oprah Winfrey was famously declined the opportunity to purchase a $40,000 (or some other absurd amount) handbag in a store in Switzerland, despite clearly being able to afford it, as she offered her Amex Black card. In the "highest echelon" of luxury brands, there are MANY limited run items, because exclusivity dramatically increases value (like a dress that there's only a small number, or perhaps even one, of). With respect to GW, clearly, if they thought people would keep buying Plasma Obliterators and Deathstorm boxes and Void Shield Generators, they'd keep making them. But their experience is that these items become like Shrine of the Aquilla -- after the initial launch, the sales plummet, there's no reason for players to buy a second one, and it just becomes a stocking nightmare to keep at a couple dozen warehouses worldwide, or ship from the UK, or produce another small run of.

So instead, they make a single run, and a few years later, they'll do another run to catch players who want it. These are clearly marked as limited run, so if you see it on your email, buy it or have a friend buy it, or whatever O.O. Most of the items that are limited run aren't even that good, from a game perspective. I suspect a lot of it (like Deathstorm) is just getting rid of a bazillion old sprues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_Armyman wrote:

 Talys wrote:
You know that there are actually no items that are DIRECT only, right? The items are WEB only, meaning that if your store so chooses, they can order from GW UK by placing their order kn the web. They receive the same discount and the same margin as any other product, except it takes longer to ship (local shipments are like 1-2 days).

Unless Canada is different from the US, this is untrue. Direct-only items have a huge difference in margin compared to regular stock for Independents. It's something like 40% vs. 10% for Direct-only items. Yes, the FLGS can order it for you just like any other weekly stock item, but given their overhead, they're virtually selling it at cost when they sell it at retail price.

This is not true. I have seen the order pages myself, with my very own eyes. I have even seen INVOICES from GW. By the way, I switched stores where I buy most of my GW stuff because one particular store was very accommodating with web orders, and gave me the same discount on web as standard orders, as long as I could wait for their next free shipping cycle. GW even sends freebies, and if you have a nice store, the store will pass them on to you. For example, I got a nifty Cult Mechanicus pin. I believe someone is just telling you 10% for web orders to compensate for potential shipping charges, but who knows.

If I urgently want something (which is really, never for an old catalog item or some bits or bases) they've offered to sell me the product at my normal discount, plus whatever shipping charges are on the invoice from GW. Which I think is pretty damn fair.

Canada does all its ordering for local stuff from the US (for instance, on Memorial day, we couldn't get orders in), so I don't see why it would bee any different for trade policies.

Before I answer you, let's get terminology straight; GW have direct only items and web exclusive items listed in various places throughout their webisphere; I don't care what you call it but what I'm talking about here are items in their catalog that have been pulled from general distribution for whatever reason.

This topic comes up ever so often. Trade terms seem to change heavily between countries. Waylaid games in the UK for example charges 15% over rrp for direct only items because they get zero discount; this has been confirmed by lgs owners in the UK. Next we have people like Mikhaila who owns at least two lgss in the U.S. who have stated that they receive a discount but nowhere near as high on direct only items as general stock merchandise. It has been put forward that the differences are due to the GW retail presence in the respective countries (I.e. high in UK and lower in the U.S.) Possibly the consistent discount in Canada might be due to a much lower GW presence than other countries so the terms are more favorable to attract more retailers to carry their product.

Now, these people may be lying for whatever reason but I tend to believe people unless I have specific reason not to. Oddly enough this is one business ploy that I agree with, if the statements and assumptions are accurate.

 agnosto wrote:
As a parent who could potentially fit this supposed mold, with a six-figure income, I would never spend the amounts of money GW asks for their product on my child's whims while also supporting their other activities (sports, clubs, etc). I personally, don't think these parents exist...

No parent should ever pay out for a child's whims. But a parent could allow a kid to play 40k (even tho I wanted mine to stick with LOTR), give him a budget, make him wait until items crop up on eBay, allow major purchases - army boxes, Battlewagons - for birthdays and Christmases, and only buy major new items when the previous ones have been painted. I do, anyway.

Some or all of you other points may well be true, but a lot of kids, in the UK anyway, do play 40k. I see them all the time and there are clubs at my son's, and his friends' schools. Yes, it might well be that there will be a major falloff as the starter boxes keep escalating in price, yes it's true that a few parents try and get their kids to quit the hobby due to pricing (often because they haven't discovered Dark Sphere), but kids still form a substantial part of GW's market.

Admittedly, my statement was my opinion and based on my experiences and perceptions. The UK often sounds like a wargamer paradise.

KranfordTButcher wrote:
I read about the price increases a while back, and I just find it baffling that people there equate the high prices of an item with high profits. I mean, there was a looney tunes cartoon that had a better grasp of economics.

I seem to recall it involving two mice being lectured on economics while avoiding Sylvester the cat. The professor mouse was typically the one thwarting the cat, but the primary principle he outlined is the one that I think applies best here: slim profit and huge volume.

You keep the prices as low as you can while still maintaining profit, and also making sure to keep the prices competitive. The company does not make as much with each sale, but it makes more sales. More importantly, potential wargamers won't be turned off by the prices as often, which means more customers buying models, which means more profits.

At least, that's the idea in theory.

I suggest reading Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics. He has several chapters about this concept.

Why won't it work for GW? As volume goes up, so does overhead. More people to pack and ship the items. Higher shipping charges. More managers needed. More HR people. Extra IT. More customer service people. Plus risk. A grocery store, for example, knows people need food. Walmart knows people want cheap everyday goods. So they know what they have will sell. Niche products entail more risk. If a unit is not popular, like, say, scout bikes for marines, those scout bikes will sit on the shelves forever. With a limited number of products, and with each customer potentially only buying a set number of those products before being sated, trying to get minimal profit with a high volume is not feasible.

 agnosto wrote:
Before I answer you, let's get terminology straight; GW have direct only items and web exclusive items listed in various places throughout their webisphere; I don't care what you call it but what I'm talking about here are items in their catalog that have been pulled from general distribution for whatever reason.

This topic comes up ever so often. Trade terms seem to change heavily between countries. Waylaid games in the UK for example charges 15% over rrp for direct only items because they get zero discount; this has been confirmed by lgs owners in the UK. Next we have people like Mikhaila who owns at least two lgss in the U.S. who have stated that they receive a discount but nowhere near as high on direct only items as general stock merchandise. It has been put forward that the differences are due to the GW retail presence in the respective countries (I.e. high in UK and lower in the U.S.) Possibly the consistent discount in Canada might be due to a much lower GW presence than other countries so the terms are more favorable to attract more retailers to carry their product.

Now, these people may be lying for whatever reason but I tend to believe people unless I have specific reason not to. Oddly enough this is one business ploy that I agree with, if the statements and assumptions are accurate.

Right. Most people are talking about webstore exclusive products, as in the items that show up on GW's website, and you click on the left side, "Special Availability". There are only a tiny number of items that are direct only. I couldn't even name one off of the top of my head.

This is as opposed to the regular channel orders -- stores get a rep, and they place the order once or twice over a phone call. What's different about the orders **in Canada** is that the regular orders are shipped from the US to Canada, and it takes about 2 days (ie order Monday = product arrives Wednesday; order Wednesday, product arrives Friday.). Web exclusive orders show up anywhere from 2 - 4 weeks. Plus for stuff that's out of stock, the rep can't do anything about it. It just says it's out, and they can get a "first dibs" notification when it comes back in stock.

Practically speaking, one of the stores I frequent refuses to take web exclusive orders because it's a pain. Unless you're on the free shipping cycle, a single $20 item can cost $30 to ship. Good luck trying to sell that as an option to a customer. But then again, this isn't how distribution is supposed to work, right? The purpose of a retailer is supposed to stock a bunch of stuff, and sell it from their shelves (I know all the reasons this isn't a good idea with a bunch of old GW stuff like metal heroes). Another store I frequent will sell the web-only stuff at their usual, 17% or so ticketed discount, but they won't discount it any more than that, and they order erratically (basically, whenever they accumulate enough stuff, and then when they feel in the mood). A third store orders on a regular schedule, and will just give a good discount, simply because they get enough web orders to place more than once a month, and the shipping isn't a major factor.

I can't explain why there might be a webstore exclusive discount in Canada and not in the USA, if that is the case. There are GW stores most major cities, usually within a 20 minute drive from any of the other hobby/game stores. The GW store in my area is actually pretty well stocked with stuff too, though I am not overly fond of the operator.

Not to drag this back to the original topic or anything, but was there a rise on Oz stuff? I can't see one but then I don't know the old prices of anything off the top of my head these days.

 Talys wrote:
FLGS have the same access to limited releases as GW stores.

"It's still good! It's still good!" - Homer Simpson


Keep telling yourself that...

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
As a parent who could potentially fit this supposed mold, with a six-figure income, I would never spend the amounts of money GW asks for their product on my child's whims while also supporting their other activities (sports, clubs, etc). I personally, don't think these parents exist...

No parent should ever pay out for a child's whims. But a parent could allow a kid to play 40k (even tho I wanted mine to stick with LOTR), give him a budget, make him wait until items crop up on eBay, allow major purchases - army boxes, Battlewagons - for birthdays and Christmases, and only buy major new items when the previous ones have been painted. I do, anyway.

Some or all of you other points may well be true, but a lot of kids, in the UK anyway, do play 40k. I see them all the time and there are clubs at my son's, and his friends' schools. Yes, it might well be that there will be a major falloff as the starter boxes keep escalating in price, yes it's true that a few parents try and get their kids to quit the hobby due to pricing (often because they haven't discovered Dark Sphere), but kids still form a substantial part of GW's market.

I started 40k in my teens, and I bought my stuff the same way I bought AD&D, GURPS, Car Wars, Call of Cthulu, BattleTech and everything else of the genre: a combination of allowance money, birthday presents, my own earnings from work, and the odd monetary reward for exceptional academic performance.

I don't see why a parent would have an objection of Warhammer 40k, over an Xbox One, or iPad, or Surface, or World of Warcraft, or any other hobby or game. I mean, first of all, the price of having kids these days and letting them do all sorts of things is insanely expensive anyways (try sending them to play hockey...), so it's not necessarily the money issue. The question is -- how much does your child want to be involved in this hobby, will it benefit them in the long run, and will it help or hinder their development in the short run?

The attitude of my parents was, they set a high academic bar for me -- I'm talking 95%+ in anything math or science related; 90%+ in English, History, etc. with one subject I was allowed to flub on (80%+... always French, lol) -- and I participated in at least 1 sport, and learned at least 1 musical instrument, they let me do anything I wanted in the rest of the time that wasn't dangerous. I mean, they didn't PAY for anything I wanted; they just let me spend it doing whatever I fancied, and any money I earned or was gifted, within reason, was my own to spend.

So at the end of the day, in increasing numbers from Grade 5 -12, pretty much every dime I made went towards RPGs and tabletop miniature games I still remember that because I wanted a bunch of Steve Jackson stuff, I wrote a piece of software for a pizza place to display "your order is ready" numbers -- on a TRS-80 Color Computer, with the software saved to an audio cassette

My point is that, 40k is not a bad thing, no more so than anything else that kids want to get into these days. But just going out and buying whatever they want, whether it's 40k or anything else, is probably not a good idea! In my humble opinion


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 jonolikespie wrote:
Not to drag this back to the original topic or anything, but was there a rise on Oz stuff? I can't see one but then I don't know the old prices of anything off the top of my head these days.

I think GW just hates Oz :(

But anyways, hardly anything of significance went up in price, so I doubt you'd notice it. Paints and ADL would be it, but paints didn't go up on the GW website here -- I think it was just the 6-packs the stores get. I saw some technical paints online go to $5.50 CAD (Agrellan Earth, for example), and edge paints, but not the base and layer. And Lahmian Medium remains unchanged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@H.B.M.C. -- I exclude Australia, which as far as GW is concerned is Mars, or something

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Talys wrote:
FLGS have the same access to limited releases as GW stores.

"It's still good! It's still good!" - Homer Simpson


Keep telling yourself that...

Actually I believe he's right. The problem is GW stores have very limited access too.

The majority of the orders at local GWs will be preorders using the store as a convenient delivery location while the store itself will receive very few to put on the shelf.

A similar thing happens with the online only stock. The reason it is online only is because most countries will have some sort of laws preventing anti consumer practices like dictating that your stores may carry a product but other stores you supply may not. When you buy any of those thousand plus products* you're buying them online and they are just shipped to the nearest GW store.

*It is not a small number at all, GW have proudly claimed there are now over a thousand direct only items.

 Talys wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Before I answer you, let's get terminology straight; GW have direct only items and web exclusive items listed in various places throughout their webisphere; I don't care what you call it but what I'm talking about here are items in their catalog that have been pulled from general distribution for whatever reason.

This topic comes up ever so often. Trade terms seem to change heavily between countries. Waylaid games in the UK for example charges 15% over rrp for direct only items because they get zero discount; this has been confirmed by lgs owners in the UK. Next we have people like Mikhaila who owns at least two lgss in the U.S. who have stated that they receive a discount but nowhere near as high on direct only items as general stock merchandise. It has been put forward that the differences are due to the GW retail presence in the respective countries (I.e. high in UK and lower in the U.S.) Possibly the consistent discount in Canada might be due to a much lower GW presence than other countries so the terms are more favorable to attract more retailers to carry their product.

Now, these people may be lying for whatever reason but I tend to believe people unless I have specific reason not to. Oddly enough this is one business ploy that I agree with, if the statements and assumptions are accurate.

Right. Most people are talking about webstore exclusive products, as in the items that show up on GW's website, and you click on the left side, "Special Availability". There are only a tiny number of items that are direct only. I couldn't even name one off of the top of my head.

This is as opposed to the regular channel orders -- stores get a rep, and they place the order once or twice over a phone call. What's different about the orders **in Canada** is that the regular orders are shipped from the US to Canada, and it takes about 2 days (ie order Monday = product arrives Wednesday; order Wednesday, product arrives Friday.). Web exclusive orders show up anywhere from 2 - 4 weeks. Plus for stuff that's out of stock, the rep can't do anything about it. It just says it's out, and they can get a "first dibs" notification when it comes back in stock.

Practically speaking, one of the stores I frequent refuses to take web exclusive orders because it's a pain. Unless you're on the free shipping cycle, a single $20 item can cost $30 to ship. Good luck trying to sell that as an option to a customer. But then again, this isn't how distribution is supposed to work, right? The purpose of a retailer is supposed to stock a bunch of stuff, and sell it from their shelves (I know all the reasons this isn't a good idea with a bunch of old GW stuff like metal heroes). Another store I frequent will sell the web-only stuff at their usual, 17% or so ticketed discount, but they won't discount it any more than that, and they order erratically (basically, whenever they accumulate enough stuff, and then when they feel in the mood). A third store orders on a regular schedule, and will just give a good discount, simply because they get enough web orders to place more than once a month, and the shipping isn't a major factor.

I can't explain why there might be a webstore exclusive discount in Canada and not in the USA, if that is the case. There are GW stores most major cities, usually within a 20 minute drive from any of the other hobby/game stores. The GW store in my area is actually pretty well stocked with stuff too, though I am not overly fond of the operator.

I actually makes sense to have different trade terms for each sales region, this makes the sales end of things more able to address the different realities of local taxes, retail presence, etc. In a thread some time back, Mikhail is the one who suggested the different terms might be due to representative presence of GW stores and general available corporate coverage; it made sense.

I honestly don't know if we're talking about the same thing. Web exclusives sound like we're talking about the short-run items like void-shield generators but I'm talking about items that were general stock items (thanks for reminding me of the term) and have moved to low availability for whatever reason. Previous examples of these items have been Wave Serpents, various fantasy miniatures like the Dwarf cannon, the Space Marine Whirlwind and the Kroot Carnivor squad box. Whether these items stay permanently in this la-la land, I have no idea; I do know what it could indicate. Low stock. GW has a limited capacity to produce miniatures; the downside of creating an ever increasing catalog while not expanding production capability (actually reducing it since they closed the Tennessee facility) is that they can run out of stock on items. Since they do no market research, they can't gauge demand so they guess; lately they've really guessed wrong pretty often and it's hurting sales, here's an example:
I hear about the new Tau release and think that I'd like to get my hands on the new kits; I walk into the local GW only to find out that the store only received 3 kits due to rationing caused by *insert reason because none were ever given* It'll be several weeks before the kits are available so I move on, lose interest and GW loses money.
The above actually happened with me. I walked into a GW store, money in hand and was turned away because they were allotted 3 riptides by corporate and I just missed my chance for the 3rd one. Sure, I could have gone back several weeks later but by then, the next new shiny came around and another company received my money instead. Poor stock management can be the death of a company and GW corporate is so afraid of dead stock that they'll actually take the chance on losing money rather than produce more product than they think they actually need.

Anywho, I've kicked this horse to death, brought it back to life and then bludgeoned it again. Carry on!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Talys wrote:
FLGS have the same access to limited releases as GW stores.

"It's still good! It's still good!" - Homer Simpson


Keep telling yourself that...

Actually I believe he's right. The problem is GW stores have very limited access too.

The majority of the orders at local GWs will be preorders using the store as a convenient delivery location while the store itself will receive very few to put on the shelf.

A similar thing happens with the online only stock. The reason it is online only is because most countries will have some sort of laws preventing anti consumer practices like dictating that your stores may carry a product but other stores you supply may not. When you buy any of those thousand plus products* you're buying them online and they are just shipped to the nearest GW store.

*It is not a small number at all, GW have proudly claimed there are now over a thousand direct only items.

1000+ Webstore Exclusive Products

That’s right, there are more than 1000 products that are only available here on the Games Workshop Webstore.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/1000-Webstore-Exclusive-Products?_requestid=12050078

Out of curiosity, how can something be "only available on the the Games Workshop Webstore" and widely available simultaneously?

Yeah, horse had been drawn and quartered by now

Just to be clear, though I meant stuff gw only stocks in the UK: Eldar Falcon (the one that gets DS with 3), DE grotesque, Mephiston, Draigo, Aquilla shrine, shoulder pads (the metal and resin ones that are too small), et cetera. Every finecast and metal product and all the edge paints.

In fairness a good chunk if those are all junk by today's standards. Like the shoulder pads that don't fit or the finecast and metal farseers -- not only is the plastic WAY better, but who plays a farseer now without a jetbike anyhow? Remember that GW pulled this stuff that nobody buys out of its own stores too. The real test will be in 10 years, when most kits are plastic, what is web only. One thing I don't get is why some of the perfectly good plastic models are web-only.

 Talys wrote:
The real test will be in 10 years, when most kits are plastic, what is web only. One thing I don't get is why some of the perfectly good plastic models are web-only.

For years now, GW has used a very simple way of deciding what to make "web-only." Will it fit on the shelf in their stores? That's all there is to it. It's all about how they want to stock their own store shelves. What FLGSs want doesn't enter into it.

 Chute82 wrote:
Well the prices of the products here in the U.S. went up. Guess my FLGS was not just making things up. Hope you all got your defense line before the price increase

I've had two for a while now. Don't see the need for three.

I already have albeit older assault marines, 82bucks for a 10man squad is absurd, that comes to roughly 8bucks a man for a normally made and ubiqiutous unit.

It was one thing for a FW DKoK unit to be priced so high as resin minis, but plastics?

Keep that shovel digging GW

 Chute82 wrote:
Well the prices of the products here in the U.S. went up. Guess my FLGS was not just making things up. Hope you all got your defense line before the price increase

Yup! I actually picked up two on Wednesday last week. Awesome little terrain piece there. Now I've gone and gotten hooked on the usable terrain/ fortifications!

It was let slip by a GW employee that all 5 man box sets in Australia will go up by 33% from $55 to $70 over the next few months, and that 10 man box sets from about $65 to $87.

GW the gift that takes.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
As a parent who could potentially fit this supposed mold, with a six-figure income, I would never spend the amounts of money GW asks for their product on my child's whims while also supporting their other activities (sports, clubs, etc). I personally, don't think these parents exist...

No parent should ever pay out for a child's whims. But a parent could allow a kid to play 40k (even tho I wanted mine to stick with LOTR), give him a budget, make him wait until items crop up on eBay, allow major purchases - army boxes, Battlewagons - for birthdays and Christmases, and only buy major new items when the previous ones have been painted. I do, anyway.

Some or all of you other points may well be true, but a lot of kids, in the UK anyway, do play 40k. I see them all the time and there are clubs at my son's, and his friends' schools. Yes, it might well be that there will be a major falloff as the starter boxes keep escalating in price, yes it's true that a few parents try and get their kids to quit the hobby due to pricing (often because they haven't discovered Dark Sphere), but kids still form a substantial part of GW's market.

The issue is here that said parent can look around the FLGS and see half a dozen other 'games with toy soldiers' that seem as high quality, achieve the same thing of moving miniatures around terrain and rolling dice, but are a fraction of the price.

Or some of the board games in the booming board game market, which are hundreds of times better than anything I had as a lad.

I can't see any reason why a parent (for whom a budget is an issue) would choose to push their kid into collecting and playing with Games Workshop stuff, viewed in the wider context of the industry there is no 'x factor' that makes their games categorically better than anyone else's. In actual fact, if I wanted my kid to experience tactical/strategic games (and to get the most enjoyment from that tactical element of games that is one of the main draws of wargaming) they would be a poor choice by any measure. That's if they actually got to play a game in the intended way; it was hard enough for me in the 80's to keep the focus and stay on target to collect an army of 30-40 miniatures, let alone the volume that is required to play the games in the intended way these days.

The games and their style have become focused more and more on younger players. At a time when the prices have never made it more inaccessible and there has never been so much competition for the teenager's money and time. This is a fundamental failure of business strategy, and it's why the company is not growing during a period of massive industry growth, and events like Games Day are poor reflections of the throngs of thousands that used to attend in the 90's.

General Hobbs wrote:
I suggest reading Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics. He has several chapters about this concept.

Why won't it work for GW? As volume goes up, so does overhead. More people to pack and ship the items. Higher shipping charges. More managers needed. More HR people. Extra IT. More customer service people. Plus risk. A grocery store, for example, knows people need food. Walmart knows people want cheap everyday goods. So they know what they have will sell. Niche products entail more risk. If a unit is not popular, like, say, scout bikes for marines, those scout bikes will sit on the shelves forever. With a limited number of products, and with each customer potentially only buying a set number of those products before being sated, trying to get minimal profit with a high volume is not feasible.

In absolute terms the cost will go up with the number of staff, but the cost per item (margin) should be going down. Especially with long shelf life items.

When you order 5,000 boxes, the cost per box will be much lower than if you ordered 500. If you're filling a 30ft delivery trailer every day, each parcel will cost less to ship than if you only drop off a dozen at the couriers counter.

The actual packing and labelling is a pretty fixed cost; a human can only pack so fast, but you can still have efficiencies from scale, such as packing from various sections so that the single packer doesn't need to move around searching as much, and someone else to handle stock control, so that the packer doesn't need to worry about empty bins and re-fulfillment.

There will be more management, but on a per item basis there's no way a healthy large company can be costing more than a small one.