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With all the rules and powerful weapons and all the rules that these cultists get, they are turning into a frighteningly powerful shooting army capable of putting out absurd amounts of powerful dakka, with high volume shooting that can do anti horde, tank, terminator, monstrous/gargantuan, flying and do well in close combat and get bonuses against cover saves.

Is This the future of 40k as this is really the 3rd army in a row to see this kind of treatment? Scared to see what tau will get if we follow this trend..

Oh yeah, I'm afraid. I'm not looking forward to the rest of the power creep.

It's really weird. Their stuff is powerful and good, but honestly I don't think it looks overpowered on paper. Then you have the Electro-Priests, who are big, expensive, and super easy to kill, so nobody in their right minds would take them. Now the ludicrous formation that lets you get free weapon and equipment upgrades for basically an 1800+ point force, THAT'S ridiculous.

I don't think it's a trend per se, just GW being wildly inconsistent.

That formation is going to allow an 1850 point force act like a2300 point force.

 Smotejob wrote:
That formation is going to allow an 1850 point force act like a2300 point force.

Do we know the tax for that force yet though? It could be something unrealistic like the 3-maniple Formation in the Skitarii codex.

All we know is that terminators will remain the same. Always

While I haven't looked much at their codex, from what I've heard they have some crazy stuff going for them but who doesn't want a little mad science?

The new Mechanicus stuff is just as scary if not even scarier then what the Edar get and I cant help but laugh at notice one big difference. Notice that there very little complaining or freaking out about this even though they are getting apparently just as if not more powerful book then the Eldar? Kind of hilarious how its showing the IoM bias that seems to dominate the forums and 40k in general. To the topic at hand it will definitely be tough for armies that rely on MC's and Vehicles in particular, especially against those Treaded Servitors (forget the name) that can put out a whopping 72 Heavy Grav Cannon shots a turn. No Imperial player has the right to ever complain about Riptides or Wraithknights anymore. Ironically the Orks got the best deal out of it as their swarms of boys will take care of that rather handily!!

GW's only trend is a lack thereof.

But yes, its getting out of hand.

A formation allowing free upgrades is full fethed. I anxiously await the people who say its fair and balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
The new Mechanicus stuff is just as scary if not even scarier then what the Edar get and I cant help but laugh at notice one big difference. Notice that there very little complaining or freaking out about this even though they are getting apparently just as if not more powerful book then the Eldar? Kind of hilarious how its showing the IoM bias that seems to dominate the forums and 40k in general. To the topic at hand it will definitely be tough for armies that rely on MC's and Vehicles in particular, especially against those Treaded Servitors (forget the name) that can put out a whopping 72 Heavy Grav Cannon shots a turn. No Imperial player has the right to ever complain about Riptides or Wraithknights anymore. Ironically the Orks got the best deal out of it as their swarms of boys will take care of that rather handily!!

The Ad Mech release being so spread out in two books and being a new army is likely not generating as much attention as the Eldar. The Eldar has been a common and fairly popular army now for well over a decade (two?), and any rules changes will immediately affect a lot of existing collections. The Ad Mech is still so new that most people either don't own it, or haven't played it, or even haven't bothered looking through the rules.

A two book release may be causing issues with people keeping up with the rules or understanding exactly what's going on with them. I can assure you that when people start becoming aware of the new formation, there'll be plenty of complaining and freaking out.

I'm hoping that tourney organizers will realize that they need to ban all formations as being Apocalypse-level only.

 gmaleron wrote:
The new Mechanicus stuff is just as scary if not even scarier then what the Edar get and I cant help but laugh at notice one big difference. Notice that there very little complaining or freaking out about this even though they are getting apparently just as if not more powerful book then the Eldar? Kind of hilarious how its showing the IoM bias that seems to dominate the forums and 40k in general.

The reason why is because while you have things which punch above their weight class or can tote lots of cheap special weapons, the basic Skitarii are still T3 with a 4+ armor save and a 6+ FNP. Infiltrators and Ruststalkers are T3 with a 4+/6+, 5+ FNP.

To the topic at hand it will definitely be tough for armies that rely on MC's and Vehicles in particular, especially against those Treaded Servitors (forget the name) that can put out a whopping 72 Heavy Grav Cannon shots a turn. No Imperial player has the right to ever complain about Riptides or Wraithknights anymore.

Why, because they can ally in something that can handle Wraithknights?

Please, step back and realize how absurd your post is. You would have a point if the Destroyers or Breachers came with those options as standard and were 30 points each. But they're not. They're in the realm of Terminator points costs.

Ironically the Orks got the best deal out of it as their swarms of boys will take care of that rather handily!!

Right. It's called "overspecialization". You can kit the Kataphron Destroyers(or Breachers) out to deal with swarms or you can kit them out to deal with vehicles/MCs. One loadout loses its effectiveness versus the other.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yarium wrote:
I'm hoping that tourney organizers will realize that they need to ban all formations as being Apocalypse-level only.

Why, because you don't like them?

Get over yourself.

 gmaleron wrote:
The new Mechanicus stuff is just as scary if not even scarier then what the Edar get and I cant help but laugh at notice one big difference. Notice that there very little complaining or freaking out about this even though they are getting apparently just as if not more powerful book then the Eldar? Kind of hilarious how its showing the IoM bias that seems to dominate the forums and 40k in general. To the topic at hand it will definitely be tough for armies that rely on MC's and Vehicles in particular, especially against those Treaded Servitors (forget the name) that can put out a whopping 72 Heavy Grav Cannon shots a turn. No Imperial player has the right to ever complain about Riptides or Wraithknights anymore. Ironically the Orks got the best deal out of it as their swarms of boys will take care of that rather handily!!

people complain because of the price of the model and the platform its on.

If eldar bikes were just 6" moving infantry, you would not see much complaining.

 gmaleron wrote:
whopping 72 Heavy Grav Cannon shots a turn.

At the price of EVERYTHING else, on a platform that isn't very mobile and is Very Bulky, as well as having paper thin defense. Eggs in a basket, anyone? They're not the HYPER mobile weapons platforms that are troop choices that Eldar get. They carry a boatload of weapons with some very obvious weaknesses. The difference is that these actually have fairly easy counter play.
But yes, they will be powerful. But it's a bit premature to say anything before the codex is even out. It could be that you have to bring some tax just to take them. We don't know enough yet.

To the OP, I guess we will know soon with the release of the space marines codex. If this codex has a definitive power increase based on all kinds of littles special rules, overall cost decrease and formation special rules I guess my answer to you will be yes.

 paqman wrote:
To the OP, I guess we will know soon with the release of the space marines codex. If this codex has a definitive power increase based on all kinds of littles special rules, overall cost decrease and formation special rules I guess my answer to you will be yes.

Considering the Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment won't be Destroyer (because if there was EVER a weapon that should be upgraded to D, its a freakin' orbital blast from a massive space ship), I don't really think we'll see any grossly over the top nonsense that we saw with the Eldar book. I do expect there to be some nice detachment and formation bonuses though, but the units in those formations will probably remain the same as they always have been, somewhat mediocre and/or slightly overpriced.

I have to say I *LOVE* the AdMech stuff. I think the Vanguard/Rangers, Ironstriders and Kataphron Servitors are some of the best miniatures GW have ever produced (and my list of 'best evar' includes some 1st edition minis, I'm no 'newer = better' fanboi), and I'm more stoked for them in general than I ever expected.. but even *I* am WTF at a lot of the formations. The Sicarian Killclade for example could be advertised with: "In 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th edition you could only 3 Elites, but look! With this formation you can field 4! AND if you do we'll throw in this awesome special rule without any point cost! Just head down to your local GW store and buy FOUR boxes!"

The Skitarii Battle Maniple in particular has no reason to exist other than "Get down to your local GW store and buy one box of every unit!" which naturally is the Skitarii formation required by the 'ludicrous' mega-formation along with at least one Imperial Knight and presumably equivalent formation from Cult Mechanicus. I wouldn't be surprised if they put the formation up as a bundle on the webstore that comes with a free set of steak knives.

 Gashrog wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if they put the formation up as a bundle on the webstore that comes with a free set of steak knives.

Don't be silly, you don't get anything for free in a webstore bundle.

 gmaleron wrote:
The new Mechanicus stuff is just as scary if not even scarier then what the Edar get and I cant help but laugh at notice one big difference. Notice that there very little complaining or freaking out about this even though they are getting apparently just as if not more powerful book then the Eldar? Kind of hilarious how its showing the IoM bias that seems to dominate the forums and 40k in general. To the topic at hand it will definitely be tough for armies that rely on MC's and Vehicles in particular, especially against those Treaded Servitors (forget the name) that can put out a whopping 72 Heavy Grav Cannon shots a turn. No Imperial player has the right to ever complain about Riptides or Wraithknights anymore. Ironically the Orks got the best deal out of it as their swarms of boys will take care of that rather handily!!

People don't own admech yet. Plenty of people already had eldar armies and just needed to mag on some scatter lasers. If you had an eldar army before that wasn't just a spam of serpents, you got a tourney quality army as soon as the book came out. The fact that the book was a lot more powerful was immediately in our faces.

People seem to have this fantasy that every tourney player has infinite hobby money and spare time, so that they can somehow buy a new tourney army, put it together, put in dozens of painting hours, get practice games in, and drive/fly to every tourney in the world, even the ones that happen on the same days.

That is not the case. Even if it was the most powerful army in the game by far, you won't see many of them until a few months down the line.

 Smotejob wrote:
That formation is going to allow an 1850 point force act like a2300 point force.

See I play mechanicus, and at first glance I thought that formation was broken as crap. Then after thinking about it I realized I would never really run it, even competativley. Here is why:

Dead points. What I consider sub standard choices in my competative lists. both sets of priest are hot garbage. Ruststalkers have a reputation now, and they get shot off the board like genestealers priority wise. An autocannon is still doubling them out with no save of any kind except a 6+ invun. Lost a whole squad yesterday to a leman russ with twin autocannons and heavy bolters. not impressive. A single chicken walker while an awesome model cant contribute much with av 11. so right there we essentially have 385 points of waste.

small numerous units. the minimum cost of this if it is what we suspect (one of everything) is 1815 points. in an 1850 point tourney list that leaves 35 points for things like extra troops. that is all of 3 vanguard or 3 rangers in some combination. At 1815 you have:5 rangers, 5 vanguard, one chicken walker, one dunecrawler 5 ruststalkers, 5 infiltrators, the new magos, a unit of kastellan robots, 3 destroyers, 3 breachers, 5 staff priests, and 5 punch priests and a knight. and this knight has a chainsword and fist, because any other options take you over 1850. So your entire army is picked out for you. Now if you are playing kill points, you are in trouble. You have at least 7 very easy to kill units on the table. That is not insignificant.

the bonuses arent as mind boggling as you think. first off, free guns. well lets see what is actually free. lets take the best case scenario, and take free plasma for both squads of rangers and vanguard. 120 points seems real good right? well you dont have enough points left over to get to a 10 man squad, so you cant get 3 in either squad. no big deal right? because you get arc pistols and arc mauls all around! but a 5 man squad of bros isnt very survivable, and you traded the range of an 18 3 shot gun for a single 12 inch shot. so you get an extra attack in meelee at ap 4. great if you are fighting something weaker than you like tau, not so hot against marines. the breachers and destroyers are best with arc rifles (already have) and grav cannons (5 point upgrades) so saves 15 points. robots save you 20 points for the guns upgrade. 25 for the knight carapice for AA. ect. the actual gear does come to around 250, and artifacts will probably push the total to 400. blood angels get 400 free points of gear on sternguard and assault troops, and nobody uses them. Because they are still poor choices with that. artifacts are nice, but the zealot one is probably the best. give to infiltrators so they dont run. unfortunatley you cannot stack them on the infiltrators, so you then have to pass the other gear around. 5 point objective changing for rangers for free isnt bad. the datasmith cant take gear, or else the pater radium would be nice with him. the rust stalkers could take the super cattle prod, but again rarely get there. The pistol could go to the vanguard, but its 6 freaking inches, nobody uses that crap. the skull could be used by anything, and if it lives late game would be a nice little thing. but for the first 2 or 3 turns an arc rifle is more useful. and since these are min units they die before they can get there most times. no overheat is nice, but the warlord for skitarii already grants preferred enemy, eliminating that problem 5/6 times. and the canticles have proven to be inferior to the basic skitarii ones, so the knight benefitting isnt as big a deal.

I would much rather play skitarii competativley, with mech allies. You get the sweet BS buffs, you can take the far superior +1 BS and ignores cover formation for the robots/destroyers, and ally in a knight, or mabye something to shore up weaknesses like I do, a culexus assassin and or mabye coteaz so drop pods dont table you. And you can make full units that can survive a turn of shooting and stay on objectives.

TLDR: its not an auto include like decurion detatchment, and is FAR from the most competative you can even get from admech.

A lot of assumptions about the Cult detachment, and your units dont have to be minimum sizes.

We dont know the Cult Detatchment is 1 of everything yet

 gmaleron wrote:
The new Mechanicus stuff is just as scary if not even scarier then what the Edar get and I cant help but laugh at notice one big difference. Notice that there very little complaining or freaking out about this even though they are getting apparently just as if not more powerful book then the Eldar? Kind of hilarious how its showing the IoM bias that seems to dominate the forums and 40k in general. To the topic at hand it will definitely be tough for armies that rely on MC's and Vehicles in particular, especially against those Treaded Servitors (forget the name) that can put out a whopping 72 Heavy Grav Cannon shots a turn. No Imperial player has the right to ever complain about Riptides or Wraithknights anymore. Ironically the Orks got the best deal out of it as their swarms of boys will take care of that rather handily!!

LOL no.

there are no 27 point troops with 12 inch move, jump shoot jump for protection, jink saving, toughness 4 troops with 36 inch turbo boosts with 4 str 6 shots. Nor is there a LoW or anything nearly as durable as a wraithknight for 295 points, or allies that allow them to deep strike, without error, and lay down str D flamer templates. nice try at deflection though.

and as for your grav cannon big scare. Do you know what those do to demons and orks? make them laugh. you know what str 6 does to EVERYTHING in the game minus av 13/14? eliminates it. too bad eldar have no way to deal with av 13/14 though, thats gotta be tough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
A lot of assumptions about the Cult detachment, and your units dont have to be minimum sizes.

We dont know the Cult Detatchment is 1 of everything yet

its not speculation, it was released today. the cult one is one of everything, and no, it DOES have to be min units of eveyrthing. You dont get to fill you unit to full because of a formation, only free gear, and at 1850 you can only afford min squad sizes for everything, with 35 points left to spare on guys.

 Orock wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
A lot of assumptions about the Cult detachment, and your units dont have to be minimum sizes.

We dont know the Cult Detatchment is 1 of everything yet

its not speculation, it was released today. the cult one is one of everything, and no, it DOES have to be min units of eveyrthing. You dont get to fill you unit to full because of a formation, only free gear, and at 1850 you can only afford min squad sizes for everything, with 35 points left to spare on guys.

Got a link? I've checked multiple sources, the Force Org of the Cult Mechanicus Battle Congregation Detatchment has not been revealed yet to my knowledge

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 paqman wrote:
To the OP, I guess we will know soon with the release of the space marines codex. If this codex has a definitive power increase based on all kinds of littles special rules, overall cost decrease and formation special rules I guess my answer to you will be yes.

Considering the Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment won't be Destroyer (because if there was EVER a weapon that should be upgraded to D, its a freakin' orbital blast from a massive space ship),

Maybe they can only use the little guns, lol. Let's be realistic, the last thing you're going to want to direct at an area target in close proximity is an orbital weapon strike.

That said, it's 40K. If there are D-category weapons on the table, the bombardment should be too.

Lol, looks like they released Orks and Dark Eldar and then turned the power up to 11 with the new books.

fething figures.

Almost everyone is saying the priests are garbage. But are they really? I'm not quite certain.

- They cost 18 points per model.
- Squad can have up to 20 (!!)
- They have S5 AP4 Concussive with Instant Death on 6.
- They get an extra Hammer of Wrath attack resolved at S4
- They get to reroll all failed To Hit rolls on round 1 of cc
- They have Zealot, so fear, morale, pinning, etc. is covered
- They have 5++, and FNP
- If they completely kill a squad, they get 3++

Well, they're not scatter bikes. But they definitely seem interesting, may find a purpose, and are ZOMG stupid I'm trying to do 4 different things and suck at all 4. They also have pretty cool models! Really, the biggest problem is S5.

I'll complain about Ad Mech when people start using them.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Lol, looks like they released Orks and Dark Eldar and then turned the power up to 11 with the new books.

fething figures.

I know your pain all too well, fellow DEOrk brother.

 Accolade wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Lol, looks like they released Orks and Dark Eldar and then turned the power up to 11 with the new books.

fething figures.

I know your pain all too well, fellow DEOrk brother.

You forgot Blood Angels

 Orock wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
That formation is going to allow an 1850 point force act like a2300 point force.

See I play mechanicus, and at first glance I thought that formation was broken as crap. Then after thinking about it I realized I would never really run it, even competativley. Here is why:

Dead points. What I consider sub standard choices in my competative lists. both sets of priest are hot garbage. Ruststalkers have a reputation now, and they get shot off the board like genestealers priority wise. An autocannon is still doubling them out with no save of any kind except a 6+ invun. Lost a whole squad yesterday to a leman russ with twin autocannons and heavy bolters. not impressive. A single chicken walker while an awesome model cant contribute much with av 11. so right there we essentially have 385 points of waste.

small numerous units. the minimum cost of this if it is what we suspect (one of everything) is 1815 points. in an 1850 point tourney list that leaves 35 points for things like extra troops. that is all of 3 vanguard or 3 rangers in some combination. At 1815 you have:5 rangers, 5 vanguard, one chicken walker, one dunecrawler 5 ruststalkers, 5 infiltrators, the new magos, a unit of kastellan robots, 3 destroyers, 3 breachers, 5 staff priests, and 5 punch priests and a knight. and this knight has a chainsword and fist, because any other options take you over 1850. So your entire army is picked out for you. Now if you are playing kill points, you are in trouble. You have at least 7 very easy to kill units on the table. That is not insignificant.

the bonuses arent as mind boggling as you think. first off, free guns. well lets see what is actually free. lets take the best case scenario, and take free plasma for both squads of rangers and vanguard. 120 points seems real good right? well you dont have enough points left over to get to a 10 man squad, so you cant get 3 in either squad. no big deal right? because you get arc pistols and arc mauls all around! but a 5 man squad of bros isnt very survivable, and you traded the range of an 18 3 shot gun for a single 12 inch shot. so you get an extra attack in meelee at ap 4. great if you are fighting something weaker than you like tau, not so hot against marines. the breachers and destroyers are best with arc rifles (already have) and grav cannons (5 point upgrades) so saves 15 points. robots save you 20 points for the guns upgrade. 25 for the knight carapice for AA. ect. the actual gear does come to around 250, and artifacts will probably push the total to 400. blood angels get 400 free points of gear on sternguard and assault troops, and nobody uses them. Because they are still poor choices with that. artifacts are nice, but the zealot one is probably the best. give to infiltrators so they dont run. unfortunatley you cannot stack them on the infiltrators, so you then have to pass the other gear around. 5 point objective changing for rangers for free isnt bad. the datasmith cant take gear, or else the pater radium would be nice with him. the rust stalkers could take the super cattle prod, but again rarely get there. The pistol could go to the vanguard, but its 6 freaking inches, nobody uses that crap. the skull could be used by anything, and if it lives late game would be a nice little thing. but for the first 2 or 3 turns an arc rifle is more useful. and since these are min units they die before they can get there most times. no overheat is nice, but the warlord for skitarii already grants preferred enemy, eliminating that problem 5/6 times. and the canticles have proven to be inferior to the basic skitarii ones, so the knight benefitting isnt as big a deal.

I would much rather play skitarii competativley, with mech allies. You get the sweet BS buffs, you can take the far superior +1 BS and ignores cover formation for the robots/destroyers, and ally in a knight, or mabye something to shore up weaknesses like I do, a culexus assassin and or mabye coteaz so drop pods dont table you. And you can make full units that can survive a turn of shooting and stay on objectives.

TLDR: its not an auto include like decurion detatchment, and is FAR from the most competative you can even get from admech.

That's my sentiment. Maybe, if you could some how take this advantage at 2000pts it'd be a different story, but the mandatory units leave you with almost no elbow room and leaves you with a lot of units that just can't do enough no matter how many freebies they might get.

Martel732 wrote:
I'll complain about Ad Mech when people start using them.

I think that is why there isn't much complaining yet.

Admech is sooo shooty they are going to blow the pants off people, but I haven't seen a single Admech force hit the table yet.

The codexes are coming out faster than the local meta can adopt them. No one local is playing Harlequins, Admech, or Daemonkin, and the Necron and Eldar forces are just players using their pre-existing armies with the new codexes.