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 BrotherGecko wrote:
While I have never personally liked the reliance on the Standard of Devastation to be a force multiplier for RW, I wonder if there is anything to fill its loss. Rerolling cover saves will certainly help survivability, what do we have to enhance offense? I'm hoping for a overall price reduction in RW to make up the reduction in bolter firepower.

When I look at the DA 6th codex, it says that each 3 man Ravenwing squad can take 2 special weapons. They now have access to Grav, which means 2/3 of your RW attack bikes could be using grav, which wouldn't be affected by standard of dev. So rather than using, what, 2/3 Salvo, you'd now have 2/3 Grav times two per squad with no overhead/liability from the banner.

Moreover, when I look at the standard of devastation, you had to put it on a RW command squad, which last I checked all had TL plasma guns and therefore did not benefit from the standard itself.

And if you really have a problem with firepower, the Black Knights will still be there, and they had zero problem with firepower seeing as each one carried a TL Plasmagun, and further each one had a bolt pistol and a Corvus hammer with 2 base attacks, for one I10 S4 impact autohit plus 4 S5 rending attacks on the charge. So you open with 2 TL plasma gun attacks then follow it up with a charge with their considerable melee attacks.

And since there's no FOC switching, there's not even really a reason to take an attack squad. Unless the formation benefits outweigh the restrictions of the formation.

Can you exclusively use black knights in a RW force now?

Not sure how effective a heavy black knight force is. They always seem to look amazing on paper but at 5 man they tend to bounce in CC against other CC units. Plus you would be pretty light on Anti-tank.

Doubtlessly not. You'd either have to take them as part of a formation or as a part of CAD.

And based on what the Lion's blade formation shows for the Ravenwing, Black Knights are not even a part of it.

No evidence presently exists to show that the Black Knights are still a part of the codex.

So we don't know if their even worth taking or if a RW force has access to them or even if a RW force even really exists?

Do we know if RW squads have access to grav or is it assumed because it is present elsewhere in the book. If you go heavy grav wouldn't you then be left to fishing for 6s on the anti-tank front? Seems like we would just be trading lots of short range anti-tank for mid range anti TEQ/MC/GMC (which was needed). The loss of SoD means you would need to go heavy grav to make up loss of weight of fire but at the expense of being good at anti tank and anti infantry.

If the Ravenwing rule confers a reroll on cover saves, did we lose scout?

Do we know if black knights have skilled rider? We know that the grenade launcher is weaker which is a hit to black knight CC.

I guess what I'm getting at, is are we going to see a net gain in power/playability for RW forces or just a shuffle in power/playability.

We really don't know anything about either the formation restrictions or the wargear options. Both are an open front.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
So we don't know if their even worth taking or if a RW force has access to them or even if a RW force even really exists?

Do we know if RW squads have access to grav or is it assumed because it is present elsewhere in the book. If you go heavy grav wouldn't you then be left to fishing for 6s on the anti-tank front? Seems like we would just be trading lots of short range anti-tank for mid range anti TEQ/MC/GMC (which was needed). The loss of SoD means you would need to go heavy grav to make up loss of weight of fire but at the expense of being good at anti tank and anti infantry.

If the Ravenwing rule confers a reroll on cover saves, did we lose scout?

Do we know if black knights have skilled rider? We know that the grenade launcher is weaker which is a hit to black knight CC.

I guess what I'm getting at, is are we going to see a net gain in power/playability for RW forces or just a shuffle in power/playability.

Corvus Hammers and Rad/Stasis launchers are in the codex so yes, Black Knights are still around (they have a kit after all).

If charging the BKs usually fire Stasis for -1 init

Rerolls on cover saves is an insane buff considering Sammael can join them for a +3 movement and charge buff and they can get a stealth/shrouded source very easily from Conclave bike librarians or Darkshrouds. If you've ever fought a fortuned Seer council with Baron having a rerollable 2++ you know how obnoxious it is; Now everyone in the unit has it too!

If running BKs you should always have an allied Chapter Master alongside to provide tanking and high str ap2 attacks.

Grav is probably going to replace plasma on the bikers; the Loss of SoD is keenly felt, but it was definitely quite gimmicky. It was difficult keeping the standard bearer alive against a competent opponent though, and SoD armies weren't really that effective overall in the meta- shooting lots of bolters is great, but no tier-1 army is weak against that.

Can someone actually confirm the presence of Grav for Ravenwing Biker squads with a screencap or is this just assumption?

It's near-certain.

The wargear section lists grav gun under special weapons.

The bike squad in the 7th C:SM dex says up to two may take special weapons.

Is it a fact we have lost Sod?

I sure hope RWBK are still in the book I bought 4 boxes of them lol.

Did stasis stay the same? Honestly I didn't like the idea of a blast weapon that only affects those that are under it with a status effect. It always seemed too risky with scatter. I favored -1 T for the wound potential.

Right now I think its a assumption/wishlist for grav RW. Though I would accept their addition (even if I'm buying new models).

I suppose we are also assuming Corvus hammers are the same too. Which I don't have faith in, as DWKs maces changed for the arguable worse.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303857-rumours-dark-angels-2015/page-50#entry4095208

Corvus hammers

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303857-rumours-dark-angels-2015/?p=4095069

Grenades

 TedNugent wrote:
It's near-certain.

The wargear section lists grav gun under special weapons.

The bike squad in the 7th C:SM dex says up to two may take special weapons.

Right, but the bike squad in C: SM is not necessarily the same as a "Ravenwing Bike Squad".

And Grav Guns don't just exist in Bike Squads, they also exist in Tactical and Company Veteran Squads.

 TedNugent wrote:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303857-rumours-dark-angels-2015/page-50#entry4095208

Corvus hammers

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303857-rumours-dark-angels-2015/?p=4095069

Grenades

Cools, thanks

Just because we have stats for the hammer and grenades doesn't mean we can still take units of Black Knights. Black Knights may have been relegated to command squad only... There's a chance they wont be a FA choice at all.

Given my history with this chapter and the fact I bought, built and painted 18 Black Knights, I can so see them getting removed from the book.

Corny wrote:
Just because we have stats for the hammer and grenades doesn't mean we can still take units of Black Knights. Black Knights may have been relegated to command squad only... There's a chance they wont be a FA choice at all.

Given my history with this chapter and the fact I bought, built and painted 18 Black Knights, I can so see them getting removed from the book.

Ravenwing Command Squad are Black Knights, just with a different title.

It's a proven fact that GW has yet to discontinue a unit with an existing dual-kit.

Black Knights are still on the shelves and even in the new boxed set. Why would you think they will be removed from the codex?

I just find it odd that there's been no mention of them yet, and I'm a pessimist...

Pessimism is a requirement to play DA in any form.

I wouldn't doubt it if somebody had the codex early and said they were gone lol.

Nope just read, there still in @ two points cheaper... Honestly I really don't feel that's enough given the nerf to rad grenades.

What is the nerf to rad grenades?

but with all the changes to Ravenwing, the playstyle may be fundamentally different so I'm not too worried about small changes to the units themselves.

Corny wrote:
Nope just read, there still in @ two points cheaper... Honestly I really don't feel that's enough given the nerf to rad grenades.

Where did you read this?

Last I heard, only the index had leaked, not the dataslates.

 TedNugent wrote:

Corny wrote:
Nope just read, there still in @ two points cheaper... Honestly I really don't feel that's enough given the nerf to rad grenades.

Where did you read this?

Last I heard, only the index had leaked, not the dataslates.

Over on SpikeyBits (http://www.spikeybits.com/2015/06/new-rules-dark-angels-vehicle-leaks.html)

Most of it is stuff we've already heard here. A few pieces are new.

Deathwing Knights are AP3 base. Smite changed to basically a smash attack, convert all attacks to 1 str X2 ap 2 attack, but no longer one use only. Knight Masters Flail gained fleshbane.

All Ravenwing units reroll failed jink saves. That's all bikes, speeders, and jets

Terminators down 20 points for the squad. Sergeants can now take lightning claws or th/ss.

Ravenwing bikers down 2 points, 25 each now

Black Knights are down 2 points, 40 each now

Rad grenades nerfed. No longer reduce T by 1. The cause 2 wounds on a wound roll of 6 regardless of toughness.

Darkshroud now has 3 hull points. Assault cannon upgrade cost reduced by a melta bomb. Icon

of old caliban now grants stealth and fear to all units within 6 inches. In addition, if a friendly unit declares a charge within 6 inches of a Darkshroud, they cannot be overwatched

Vengeance is now 120. Also given 3 hull points. Assault cannon upgrade reduced by a melta bomb. Plasma Storm Battery is now 36" range.

Nephilim was given missile lock back. Blacksword missiles are now str 7 AP 3. Costs 170 points

Dark Talons rift cannon is now str 10 ap 2 blind blast. On a scatter roll of any double, it gains the vortex rule. Stasis bomb has the same effect as before. In addition, models hit by it must pass an initiative test or be removed from play. Cost is 160.

ravenwing definitely going to be fun, although the changes to the plasma battery is meaningless.

With regard to the DWK changes, "basically smash" leaves a lot open to interpretation...
Does it happen at initiative or I1?
Does it re-roll armor penetration?
Does it use the models base strength or S+2 when determining the x2 strength.

So much room for awesome, meh, or head scratching mediocrity..
AP3 is a nice, welcome, and needed change.
Fleshbane helps in the MC front, but he's no better than a krak grenade x 3 vs vehicles. Please let the Knight Master take melta bombs!

Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!

 Brillow80 wrote:
With regard to the DWK changes, "basically smash" leaves a lot open to interpretation...
Does it happen at initiative or I1?
Does it re-roll armor penetration?
Does it use the models base strength or S+2 when determining the x2 strength.

So much room for awesome, meh, or head scratching mediocrity..
AP3 is a nice, welcome, and needed change.
Fleshbane helps in the MC front, but he's no better than a krak grenade x 3 vs vehicles. Please let the Knight Master take melta bombs!

Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!

Because they get re-roll jink, stock???

Also, terminators are still 25pts more than C:SM it seems, worried we will be losing TL on first turn as well...

 raiden wrote:


Because they get re-roll jink, stock???

Also, terminators are still 25pts more than C:SM it seems, worried we will be losing TL on first turn as well...

Actually, now that I think about it...looking at their profile it might have been the stock Hit-and-Run, Teleport Homer, and Scout.
Never having fielded any terminators other than DW any cost savings is a bonus

 raiden wrote:

 Brillow80 wrote:
Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!

Because they get re-roll jink, stock???

Is that really worth all that extra? I mean, White Scars get Skilled Rider, +1 S on HoW attacks, and Hit and Run for free.

This has just occured to me but:

1) WD says "Don't be surprised if DW assaults turn 2"
2) Leaks says that DW can deep strike at the earliest on turn 2.

So...they got some way to assault out of deep strike? Maybe if deepstriked thanks to Ravenwing?

 Death By Monkeys wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 Brillow80 wrote:
Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!

Because they get re-roll jink, stock???

Is that really worth all that extra? I mean, White Scars get Skilled Rider, +1 S on HoW attacks, and Hit and Run for free.

We get hit and run stock, teleport homers, scout... Re-roll.to jink save will make us near immune to grav weapons,

We will move flat out T1, and laugh as skyhammer lists fail to remove a single unit thanks to 2+ rerollable jink T1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
This has just occured to me but:

1) WD says "Don't be surprised if DW assaults turn 2"
2) Leaks says that DW can deep strike at the earliest on turn 2.

So...they got some way to assault out of deep strike? Maybe if deepstriked thanks to Ravenwing?

God lets hope

Spoletta wrote:
This has just occured to me but:

1) WD says "Don't be surprised if DW assaults turn 2"
2) Leaks says that DW can deep strike at the earliest on turn 2.

So...they got some way to assault out of deep strike? Maybe if deepstriked thanks to Ravenwing?

I hope this is the reason we can't DS turn 1. so far ravenwing are looking better and deathwing are just cheaper.


also can someone please tell me why they think the dakka banner is gone. i refuse to believe it considering GW just released a transfer sheet with it on