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 jokerkd wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Looking at the entry for the generic hqs, it looks like you still can't take a bike and termy armor (as it should be), but they do not have the ravenwing special rule and taking a bike does not mention ravenwing in either the entry for the sc or under the entry for the bike in the wargear section. So what are we supposed to fill this HQ slots with other than Sammy and maybe a RW command squad?

What? They can take bikes or terminator armour, read carefully. They don't gain the Ravenwing special rule though they have Deathwing.

The first part was in response to another post that I apparently misread as implying that you could take termy armor and a bike at the same time.

I am aware of the deathwing bit, but I am focussed on the fact that at the moment, you can't take a libby or chaplain as part of the ravenwing strike force, which sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I wonder if taking a bike on a character will give them the Raven wing rule. Perhaps it is in the bike entry itself.

It is not. Currently Sammy and possibly Ravenwing Command Squads are the only available options for the Ravenwing Strike Force HQ slots.

Does a unit have to have the ravenwing rule to be taken the detachment?

Yes.

So far despite the buffs and nerfs overall the changes seem a little mediocre. Aside from the re-rollable jink save, 6th ed codex was stronger.

I'd also add that it looks like BK or the RWCS got moved to the elite slot as in the current book there is nothing from the ravenwing that is elite yet there is a slot in the RSF.

No Deathwing as troops



No Ravenwing as troops



Monster Hunter of Caliban is the same

as to the Librarian and Interrogator Chaplains, they wouldn't have Ravenwing listed as a trait since they are members of the Inner Circle which is no longer a rule, it has been replaced with the rule "Deathwing". since the Ravenwing Strike Force has 3 HQ slots, I'm pretty sure you will be able to take other characters other than Sammael!

Also, not sure how you think the rules are worse than 6th edition.....they are much better now.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Here are the relevant entries:

Ravenwing Strike Force

Spoiler:

I like the Ravenwing 'Strike as One' Command Benefit as it allows the player to choose whether or not he wants to lose the game automatically at the end of the first turn if this is your only Detachment/Formation (see 'Sudden Death Victory' in the Preparing for Battle section of the main rulebook). Brilliant!

 Ghaz wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Here are the relevant entries:

Ravenwing Strike Force

Spoiler:

I like the Ravenwing 'Strike as One' Command Benefit as it allows the player to choose whether or not he wants to loose the game automatically at the end of the first turn (see 'Sudden Death Victory' in the Preparing for Battle section of the main rulebook). Brilliant!

but the point is they are supposed to be taken in conjunction with a Deathwing Strike Force which also comes down on Turn 2.

So on board the strike cruiser they can have a debate over who's fault it was "wait, I thought you were supposed to be there first?" ..."nah, it was definitely your turn"

 bullyboy wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Here are the relevant entries:

Ravenwing Strike Force

Spoiler:

I like the Ravenwing 'Strike as One' Command Benefit as it allows the player to choose whether or not he wants to loose the game automatically at the end of the first turn (see 'Sudden Death Victory' in the Preparing for Battle section of the main rulebook). Brilliant!

but the point is they are supposed to be taken in conjunction with a Deathwing Strike Force which also comes down on Turn 2.

So on board the strike cruiser they can have a debate over who's fault it was "wait, I thought you were supposed to be there first?" ..."nah, it was definitely your turn"

Lol

On topic, do we have a translation of the Deathwing rule?

Given that you can take both a FOC and a formation for the Ravenwing requirements, I'm imagining a lot of Deathwing players starting turn one with a single attack bike and a single land speeder on the board.

 bullyboy wrote:
as to the Librarian and Interrogator Chaplains, they wouldn't have Ravenwing listed as a trait since they are members of the Inner Circle which is no longer a rule, it has been replaced with the rule "Deathwing". since the Ravenwing Strike Force has 3 HQ slots, I'm pretty sure you will be able to take other characters other than Sammael!

Also, not sure how you think the rules are worse than 6th edition.....they are much better now.

First, I never said the rules were worse than 6th, I think you have me and another poster mixed up.

Second, I hear what you are saying, and I expect that you would be able to take other characters as HQs in the RSF as well, however nothing is supporting that ability at the moment, and it would not be the first time GW has made an error like this.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

So if you look at the Ravenwing Strike Force, it requires the ravenwing special for all units included in it. If you look at the Ravenwing bike squad, you can clearly see "Ravenwing" in the special rules. Then looking at the entries to the SCs and the Space Marine Bike entry, "Ravenwing" is not mentioned once.

Yes, but it doesn't mean that in the specific HQ datasheets they don't have a comment about them becoming Ravenwing.

changemod wrote:
Given that you can take both a FOC and a formation for the Ravenwing requirements, I'm imagining a lot of Deathwing players starting turn one with a single attack bike and a single land speeder on the board.

You may as well start with nothing then. There's no way that survives an entire turn against any army, let alone a decent army.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

changemod wrote:
Given that you can take both a FOC and a formation for the Ravenwing requirements, I'm imagining a lot of Deathwing players starting turn one with a single attack bike and a single land speeder on the board.

You may as well start with nothing then. There's no way that survives an entire turn against any army, let alone a decent army.

As long as you have first turn, doesn't matter. Just know you will lose 16% of games

 raiden wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

changemod wrote:
Given that you can take both a FOC and a formation for the Ravenwing requirements, I'm imagining a lot of Deathwing players starting turn one with a single attack bike and a single land speeder on the board.

You may as well start with nothing then. There's no way that survives an entire turn against any army, let alone a decent army.

As long as you have first turn, doesn't matter. Just know you will lose 16% of games

Lol what?

NamelessBard wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

So if you look at the Ravenwing Strike Force, it requires the ravenwing special for all units included in it. If you look at the Ravenwing bike squad, you can clearly see "Ravenwing" in the special rules. Then looking at the entries to the SCs and the Space Marine Bike entry, "Ravenwing" is not mentioned once.

Yes, but it doesn't mean that in the specific HQ datasheets they don't have a comment about them becoming Ravenwing.

I'm not ruling out that there is something in the German that I can't understand that fixes this, but GW doesn't translate the word "Ravenwing" into German so it appears exactly as it does in english. If it was mentioned anywhere on the datasheet, you'd see it. Maybe i'm not imaginative enough to come up with it, but I can't think of a reasonable way to phrase giving permission to join the Ravenwing Strike Formation without using the word Ravenwing.

Nobody is going to leave the whole army in reserve. They will put the attachment in reserve, and the rest of their army on the board

Also the 16% of lost games comment refers to Seize the Initiative - as in if you set your bikes up and they seize from you, you will lose.

I disagree - bikes get a whole 12" re-deployment from scout AFTER your opponent if they seized from you, though - unless I am mistaken?

 jokerkd wrote:

On topic, do we have a translation of the Deathwing rule?

Edit: oops, misunderstood. Might still be able to find it though.

Edit2: nope,can't find it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zgort wrote:

I disagree - bikes get a whole 12" re-deployment from scout AFTER your opponent if they seized from you, though - unless I am mistaken?

Seize is done before the start of the first game turn, so after scout moves.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

changemod wrote:
Given that you can take both a FOC and a formation for the Ravenwing requirements, I'm imagining a lot of Deathwing players starting turn one with a single attack bike and a single land speeder on the board.

You may as well start with nothing then. There's no way that survives an entire turn against any army, let alone a decent army.

Yes, because so many armies have any way to get at a single model obscured completely by LOS blocking terrain on turn one.

There's a few ways to do it, but not many.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:


Space Marine Bike wargear entry

Spoiler:

So if you look at the Ravenwing Strike Force, it requires the ravenwing special for all units included in it. If you look at the Ravenwing bike squad, you can clearly see "Ravenwing" in the special rules. Then looking at the entries to the SCs and the Space Marine Bike entry, "Ravenwing" is not mentioned once.

Actually it does in the 2nd line under Space Marine Bike. Its very blurry so I can't translate the surrounding words but it looks like Ravenwing to me

 andrewm9 wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:


Space Marine Bike wargear entry

Spoiler:

So if you look at the Ravenwing Strike Force, it requires the ravenwing special for all units included in it. If you look at the Ravenwing bike squad, you can clearly see "Ravenwing" in the special rules. Then looking at the entries to the SCs and the Space Marine Bike entry, "Ravenwing" is not mentioned once.

Actually it does in the 2nd line under Space Marine Bike. Its very blurry so I can't translate the surrounding words but it looks like Ravenwing to me

That is the fluff section, you can tell because it is in Italics.

The actual rules are in the second half of the page.

Unfortunately that's the background section of the bike (you can tell because it's in italics). It probably says something like "used by members of the Ravenwing".

The rules section doesn't seem to mention the Ravenwing rule at all.

 jokerkd wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

changemod wrote:
Given that you can take both a FOC and a formation for the Ravenwing requirements, I'm imagining a lot of Deathwing players starting turn one with a single attack bike and a single land speeder on the board.

You may as well start with nothing then. There's no way that survives an entire turn against any army, let alone a decent army.

As long as you have first turn, doesn't matter. Just know you will lose 16% of games

Lol what?

Sigh .. If you manage to get first turn, you can use this deployment, and even if both units die, everything comes in your turn two, so you're fine.

However, on a 6 enemy gets first turn, ergo 16% of the time you lose cuz your first turn nothing is on the field.

Game turn, not player turn...it doesn't matter if you go first or second, if you have nothing on the board at the end of the first game turn, you lose.

changemod wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

changemod wrote:
Given that you can take both a FOC and a formation for the Ravenwing requirements, I'm imagining a lot of Deathwing players starting turn one with a single attack bike and a single land speeder on the board.

You may as well start with nothing then. There's no way that survives an entire turn against any army, let alone a decent army.

Yes, because so many armies have any way to get at a single model obscured completely by LOS blocking terrain on turn one.

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not. Every army will be able to kill a bike and a land speeder on turn 1 no matter what the terrain looks like.

so based on what we've seen so far where do people feel the new codex sits?
On a scale of 1 - 10, where are the new DA, 6e DA and the new SM.

 raiden wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

changemod wrote:
Given that you can take both a FOC and a formation for the Ravenwing requirements, I'm imagining a lot of Deathwing players starting turn one with a single attack bike and a single land speeder on the board.

You may as well start with nothing then. There's no way that survives an entire turn against any army, let alone a decent army.

As long as you have first turn, doesn't matter. Just know you will lose 16% of games

Lol what?

Sigh .. If you manage to get first turn, you can use this deployment, and even if both units die, everything comes in your turn two, so you're fine.

However, on a 6 enemy gets first turn, ergo 16% of the time you lose cuz your first turn nothing is on the field.

Wow. Don't ever stray into ymdc......

 bullyboy wrote:
so based on what we've seen so far where do people feel the new codex sits?
On a scale of 1 - 10, where are the new DA, 6e DA and the new SM.

Where Eldar is an 11 and Necrons are 10.5 I'd say

6e DA: 6
7e DA: 8
SM: 8.5-9 (Cents, better veterans, Stormraven/Stormtalon, relics, TFC, more offensive-based CT)

I reserve the right to adjust after playing a few games with the new book but it does seem like it's very internally balanced, just like BA and SW before it.

Oh, one thing I hear people ask is "What is codex xyz's answer to Imperial Knights"
So, um, what is DA's (besides an IK)?

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Game turn, not player turn...it doesn't matter if you go first or second, if you have nothing on the board at the end of the first game turn, you lose.

It's your turn, check it again.

If, at the end of your turn you have nothing on the field you lose.

 raiden wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Game turn, not player turn...it doesn't matter if you go first or second, if you have nothing on the board at the end of the first game turn, you lose.

It's your turn, check it again.

If, at the end of your turn you have nothing on the field you lose.

pg 133

quite clearly states " If at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield his opponent automatically wins."

game turn, not player turn

 Brillow80 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
so based on what we've seen so far where do people feel the new codex sits?
On a scale of 1 - 10, where are the new DA, 6e DA and the new SM.

Where Eldar is an 11 and Necrons are 10.5 I'd say

6e DA: 6
7e DA: 8
SM: 8.5-9 (Cents, better veterans, Stormraven/Stormtalon, relics, TFC, more offensive-based CT)

I reserve the right to adjust after playing a few games with the new book

Few nitpicks-
Cents were only amazing before due to grav weapons. Now they can Spam grav cannons, cents are still good, but not as good now.

Better veterans is debatable, they get stern guard (which are great) but ours cost much less, I'd wager around 85-90 pts bare.

Ours are more customizable, with the same option for metacide at 20pts less. (And no turn wasted not shooting special ammo)

I actually like our new flyers, they are one of the best anti-ground unit flyers bar none (save perhaps baledrake)

Especially the huge boost the dark talon got.

Our "chapter tactics" of stubborn/bs2 suck, I agree. But GW has to make us all wish we were as good as our spiritual overlords after all.

Just looking at it... I'd rate us slightly (ever so slightly) below C:SM.

Also, eldar are 10, necrons 9.5, C:SM 9-10(skyhammer), DA 8-9,

 raiden wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Game turn, not player turn...it doesn't matter if you go first or second, if you have nothing on the board at the end of the first game turn, you lose.

It's your turn, check it again.

If, at the end of your turn you have nothing on the field you lose.

From 'Sudden Death Victory':

If at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield his opponent automatically wins.