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I'm personally not too affected by zero deployment since I'll have an ordinary CAD and/or Ravenwing standing around already. Feel horrible for those who do though... "Purest" solution is apparently to have lots of Drop Pod Dreads, but that's real-money expensive. On the bright side, since Deathwing's an independent formation the other people don't have to be Dark Angels if they won't want them to be, could have ordinary Marines, Guard, Inquisition or any number of things wandering around before the Deathwing pops in! Probably best to stick with Imperial choices though.

Had a probably stupid question that popped into my brain, but I'll ask it anyway: We had all this talk about Deep Striking Land Raiders, does it have to be THEIR Dedicated Transport to do this? Or could you for example take IG Allies and have a load of Deathwing Knights Deep Strike inside a Stormlord or a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT? I'm guessing "No, never, not in a million years, that doesn't make any sense and you're a moron for asking" but I just had to get the thought out there.

Watcher, I might not like Green dudes but you've got an impressive army there, well done!

You can only take Deathwing models and their respective transports, so no you can't.

Absolutely thought as much, was just a crazy thought.

A more pertinent one: Is the Triple Vindicator Combo Pie Plate Of Death a good counter for Biker shenanigans? It makes it an Apocalyptic Blast with Ignores Cover, so that sounds like an awfully large S10 AP2 template that'll delete any pesky Ravenwing it lands on. Besides the cost of 3 Vindies, of course.

Im just pissed that...

1) the demi company requires chaplins, not Interrogator chaplains.
2) DA still cant get a Chapter Master outside of Azzy. We have no 4 wound character that we can play with.
3) Company Masters STILL cant have a bike.


Other erking points...

1) The stupid combine units is worth 2VP sucks because squadrons of vehicles transfer hits. So if someone shoots at your predators that have the Land Raider, and gets 4 pens against armor 11 side, you could lose the whole squadron (including Land Raider) as the hits transfer! This is BS!

Same thing for land speeders being combined, you now have 2 VP that could be wiped out by targetting 1 unit. I used to take my LS's as seperate units (normally in RWAS's) just to keep them alive longer. Now you can target 1 squad of 2-4 land speeders and kill them all with a tac squad of bolters.

effreem wrote:
Im just pissed that...

1) the demi company requires chaplins, not Interrogator chaplains.
2) DA still cant get a Chapter Master outside of Azzy. We have no 4 wound character that we can play with.
3) Company Masters STILL cant have a bike.


Other erking points...

1) The stupid combine units is worth 2VP sucks because squadrons of vehicles transfer hits. So if someone shoots at your predators that have the Land Raider, and gets 4 pens against armor 11 side, you could lose the whole squadron (including Land Raider) as the hits transfer! This is BS!

Same thing for land speeders being combined, you now have 2 VP that could be wiped out by targetting 1 unit. I used to take my LS's as seperate units (normally in RWAS's) just to keep them alive longer. Now you can target 1 squad of 2-4 land speeders and kill them all with a tac squad of bolters.

Wait what? That is awful. When did this happen? ( I haven't played in 7th at all)

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 tydrace wrote:

The Darkshroud specifically states the Darkshroud doesn't benefit from it, though. However, it does say all Dark Angels Units gain the Fear and Stealth special rule. So the squadron gains Fear and Stealth except for the Darkshroud?

That's correct, but a unit only needs one model to have Stealth for the entire unit to benefit from it. So, like I said, the unit will have Stealth and Shrouded until it's reduced to only the Darkshroud left, then it only has Shrouded.

It's similar to how Pedro's +1A applied to all units but him.

I don't see any issue with the squadron rule at all. You hit the closest target and all hits will hit taht one until it is destroyed then it goes to next closest. So a BS 5 Land raider can have 3 Ablative Predators.
Even better with the landspeeders. Equipped with HB/typhoon etc, it hits from long range. This means an enemy will need to use long range firepower to target them, risking doing nothing to a unit with 2+ rerollable jink saves.

So, yes, it should yield 2VP if destroyed because it's 4 separate vehicles in 1 unit.

Locrian wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Requizen wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?

Technically? No. This book is rather poorly written.

Why is it poorly written? Deep Striking Land Raiders has been a thing before, for all we know the authors intended for them to be a thing again.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it was a mistake.

There are NUMEROUS, blatant problems with the rules as they are written in the codex. Many of them have been outlined here already. For example, the RW detachment has a 1-3 HQ slot, and a reroll warlord table rule, but the ONLY HQ allowed to be taken in the formation is Sammy, due to how the rules are written. There are quite a few others as well.

Ha! I didn't even realize the rerolled Warlord trait was also useless. Priceless! Maybe the developers only made it as far as the "click the web bundle and enter credit card" stage of the playtesting but ran out of time before they got to the "sit down and write a list" part?

effreem wrote:
Im just pissed that...

1) the demi company requires chaplins, not Interrogator chaplains.
2) DA still cant get a Chapter Master outside of Azzy. We have no 4 wound character that we can play with.
3) Company Masters STILL cant have a bike.


Other erking points...

1) The stupid combine units is worth 2VP sucks because squadrons of vehicles transfer hits. So if someone shoots at your predators that have the Land Raider, and gets 4 pens against armor 11 side, you could lose the whole squadron (including Land Raider) as the hits transfer! This is BS!

Same thing for land speeders being combined, you now have 2 VP that could be wiped out by targetting 1 unit. I used to take my LS's as seperate units (normally in RWAS's) just to keep them alive longer. Now you can target 1 squad of 2-4 land speeders and kill them all with a tac squad of bolters.

You should probably read the vehicle squadron rules again, against vehicles in Squadrons you allocate hits, then roll pens 1 at a time.

 bullyboy wrote:
So a BS 5 Land raider can have 3 Ablative Predators.

I think you're confusing the actual benefit here. It's an ablative Land Raider to help protect your flimsy Predators.

xera32 wrote:

effreem wrote:
Im just pissed that...

1) the demi company requires chaplins, not Interrogator chaplains.
2) DA still cant get a Chapter Master outside of Azzy. We have no 4 wound character that we can play with.
3) Company Masters STILL cant have a bike.


Other erking points...

1) The stupid combine units is worth 2VP sucks because squadrons of vehicles transfer hits. So if someone shoots at your predators that have the Land Raider, and gets 4 pens against armor 11 side, you could lose the whole squadron (including Land Raider) as the hits transfer! This is BS!

Same thing for land speeders being combined, you now have 2 VP that could be wiped out by targetting 1 unit. I used to take my LS's as seperate units (normally in RWAS's) just to keep them alive longer. Now you can target 1 squad of 2-4 land speeders and kill them all with a tac squad of bolters.

You should probably read the vehicle squadron rules again, against vehicles in Squadrons you allocate hits, then roll pens 1 at a time.

You're right. For some reason I was thinking that hits were transferred to the next tank after rolling to pen. According to my (6th) rulebook on my phone, they transfer before rolling to pen.

Yep, the squadrons actually protect them a lot since it is one at a time. Land speeders with rerolling 2+ jink? Yes please!!! Honestly the dark shroud is actually worth considering now with e huge durability bump it got

I picked up my book today! My first impression was, HOLY CRAP. The book is so much an upgrade in terms of content from the old one that it isn't funny. It's beautifully assembled, and every bit as nice as C:SM.

Now I just hafta read it.... lol

Is there much in the way of new fiction? I know you haven't read it yet, but just skimming you should get a general idea since they seem to always format the fiction the same way from book to book.

xera32 wrote:

effreem wrote:
Im just pissed that...

1) the demi company requires chaplins, not Interrogator chaplains.
2) DA still cant get a Chapter Master outside of Azzy. We have no 4 wound character that we can play with.
3) Company Masters STILL cant have a bike.


Other erking points...

1) The stupid combine units is worth 2VP sucks because squadrons of vehicles transfer hits. So if someone shoots at your predators that have the Land Raider, and gets 4 pens against armor 11 side, you could lose the whole squadron (including Land Raider) as the hits transfer! This is BS!

Same thing for land speeders being combined, you now have 2 VP that could be wiped out by targetting 1 unit. I used to take my LS's as seperate units (normally in RWAS's) just to keep them alive longer. Now you can target 1 squad of 2-4 land speeders and kill them all with a tac squad of bolters.

You should probably read the vehicle squadron rules again, against vehicles in Squadrons you allocate hits, then roll pens 1 at a time.

actually, I'd say you should read them again.

pg 79
"Once you have determined the number of hits, these hits must be resolved, one at a time, against the model in the squadron closest to the firing unit......Once the nearest model in the squadron is destroyed (ie wrecked or Explodes), the next hit is allocated against the new nearest model, and so on"
Later it talsk about allocating individual hits, rather than wounds, one at a time, to the closest model in the squadron.

this is all in bold, so can't really be misinterpreted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
So a BS 5 Land raider can have 3 Ablative Predators.

I think you're confusing the actual benefit here. It's an ablative Land Raider to help protect your flimsy Predators.

no way, basic predator with autocannon is super cheap, let them soak the wounds keeping Land Raider alive. The Land Raider contains the techmarine and has better BS. Biggest downside is that the formation is best with the standard lascannon land raider, but you can't add DW knights to the raider with the tech marine inside. But a beefy command sqd can be well protected until it gets where it needs to go.

I'm jelly. I hope my army looks as good one day

Are we saying that DA overwatch is not snap shots? Ie: can overwatch with blast weapons?

Sadly, this book is still tier 2. First tier being Eldar and Tau with C: SM being 1.5 with the iron hands/white scars super friends bike masters.

I'm just not convinced, with how much ignores cover there is, that ravenwing is going to have a prayer. Wyverns, Tau everything and daemon prince spam are still going to hurt DA bad.

 Kavish wrote:
Are we saying that DA overwatch is not snap shots? Ie: can overwatch with blast weapons?

I get the impression "full ballistic skill" means templates are ok. I could be wrong. It happens a lot.

This would make charging a plasma cannon a particularly nasty gamble, huh? Here's hoping

 zgort wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Are we saying that DA overwatch is not snap shots? Ie: can overwatch with blast weapons?

I get the impression "full ballistic skill" means templates are ok. I could be wrong. It happens a lot.

This would make charging a plasma cannon a particularly nasty gamble, huh? Here's hoping

No, it's still a snap shot, but at BS4 instead of BS1. Which I realize doesn't feel like a Snap Shot, but it does mean that you don't get Blast weapons. Flamers still get Wall of Death autohits, though.

 Commissar Merces wrote:
Sadly, this book is still tier 2. First tier being Eldar and Tau with C: SM being 1.5 with the iron hands/white scars super friends bike masters.

I'm just not convinced, with how much ignores cover there is, that ravenwing is going to have a prayer. Wyverns, Tau everything and daemon prince spam are still going to hurt DA bad.

I'll take tier 2 over bottom of the pole any day Looks to be a nice improvement of 6E. I am looking forward to it. All about perspective


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:


No, it's still a snap shot, but at BS4 instead of BS1. Which I realize doesn't feel like a Snap Shot, but it does mean that you don't get Blast weapons. Flamers still get Wall of Death autohits, though.

Thanks for clarification. Bummer - but still...BS4 is niceeee

You know, I think there's an interesting point to be made about Tier 2 armies.

If you play Tier 1 armies like Eldar Scat Bikes/D-weapons or Tau FireTide, when you rock up to the table, your opponent groans. They're already expecting a bad matchup (unless they've brought a similarly hardcore army). Sometimes this puts a damper on how fun the game is going to be.

But when you rock up with a Tier 2 army, your opponent is excited to play a fair match (or if they've brought a Tier 1 - is excited to crush you). Morale for the game is better. And then when you use your Tier 2 army to crush your foes, steal their horses, and hear the lamentations of the women - then you can truly celebrate.

I'm lookin at pickin up a second nephilim and a dark Talon to run a capture squadron as air support for my Vanilla marines. I like the model (once I scrape off all the DA junk that it is plastered in) and now they are rather effective.

 Commissar Merces wrote:
Sadly, this book is still tier 2. First tier being Eldar and Tau with C: SM being 1.5 with the iron hands/white scars super friends bike masters.

I'm just not convinced, with how much ignores cover there is, that ravenwing is going to have a prayer. Wyverns, Tau everything and daemon prince spam are still going to hurt DA bad.

Do you play much competitive 40k at all? This book is not tier 2. Obsec spam is hyper-competitive and crushes unprepared armies. Ravenwing is flat out uphill struggle for Eldar. Black Knights+Conclave deathstar is the new tier 1 build to beat. Ravenwing + Skyhammer wrecks Tau.

You have all the tools necessary to kill any ignores cover on the first turn. It's more obnoxious than Scatterbike spam (which isn't even competitive) because you can kill the scatter bikes.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 Commissar Merces wrote:
Sadly, this book is still tier 2. First tier being Eldar and Tau with C: SM being 1.5 with the iron hands/white scars super friends bike masters.

I'm just not convinced, with how much ignores cover there is, that ravenwing is going to have a prayer. Wyverns, Tau everything and daemon prince spam are still going to hurt DA bad.

Do you play much competitive 40k at all? This book is not tier 2. Obsec spam is hyper-competitive and crushes unprepared armies. Ravenwing is flat out uphill struggle for Eldar. Black Knights+Conclave deathstar is the new tier 1 build to beat. Ravenwing + Skyhammer wrecks Tau.

You have all the tools necessary to kill any ignores cover on the first turn. It's more obnoxious than Scatterbike spam (which isn't even competitive) because you can kill the scatter bikes.

One thing the army lacks is answers to Superheavies. With Wraithknights and Imperial Knights being around, and more and more people becoming comfortable with Superheavies, you need an answer. Grav is a good start, and Plasma isn't terrible, but as long as a Wraithknight can stand out in front of the Eldar, DA won't exactly style all over them. It'll be much more even, with Ravenwing or Battle Company beating most of the Eldar list while smart Wraithknight and Bike play will be tougher to compete with.

I think DA is easily on the same tier as SM. Missing some toys from C:SM, but getting others of their own. And of course, being Army of the Imperium is the best bonus your army can have

So I have this stupid question: do DW/RW strikeforces counts as core detachments for Lion's Sword? Can I have full BS overwatch for my bikes?

 Death By Monkeys wrote:
You know, I think there's an interesting point to be made about Tier 2 armies.

If you play Tier 1 armies like Eldar Scat Bikes/D-weapons or Tau FireTide, when you rock up to the table, your opponent groans. They're already expecting a bad matchup (unless they've brought a similarly hardcore army). Sometimes this puts a damper on how fun the game is going to be.

But when you rock up with a Tier 2 army, your opponent is excited to play a fair match (or if they've brought a Tier 1 - is excited to crush you). Morale for the game is better. And then when you use your Tier 2 army to crush your foes, steal their horses, and hear the lamentations of the women - then you can truly celebrate.

This, this exactly. I play eldar as my competitive list.... I've taken it to some friendly games as a toned down version and you can instantly see the disappointment on my opponents faces except my tau playing friends. Not this is a friendly semi competitive book, that looks like it'll be a lot of fun to play, and you can build a fluffy list that's also not going to get stomped easily. If it wasn't for a couple of glaringly obvious mistakes then I'd be saying well done GW.

IF you are looking at a book from a competitive angle it needs to be in the context of what allies come with it. I think that DA brings a lot to the table as an army of the imperium. Just the number of special rules alone are enough to warrant their inclusion.

I was talking to my friends and was basically saying "You take white scars for your OS grav bikes with Khan, You take Ravenwing for Black knights" Seriously a black knight is the same cost as a grav biker from DA and is better in almost every way. They threaten almost every unit in the game between assault and shooting capabilities, as well as solid defense. Further the Ravenwing have scout, so combined with some reserve shenanigans you can basically have a solid alpha strike turn 2. Just a quick example lol.

 Leth wrote:
IF you are looking at a book from a competitive angle it needs to be in the context of what allies come with it. I think that DA brings a lot to the table as an army of the imperium. Just the number of special rules alone are enough to warrant their inclusion.

I was talking to my friends and was basically saying "You take white scars for your OS grav bikes with Khan, You take Ravenwing for Black knights" Seriously a black knight is the same cost as a grav biker from DA and is better in almost every way. They threaten almost every unit in the game between assault and shooting capabilities, as well as solid defense. Further the Ravenwing have scout, so combined with some reserve shenanigans you can basically have a solid alpha strike turn 2. Just a quick example lol.

It's just really lame that you can't take them in the Lion's Blade strike force.

 Reinokarite wrote:
So I have this stupid question: do DW/RW strikeforces counts as core detachments for Lion's Sword? Can I have full BS overwatch for my bikes?

The only core detachment shown in the Lion's Blade Strike Force is the Demi-Company. The DW/RW Strike Force aren't formations either.

Short answer: no.