Irish vote on gay marriage in landmark referendum

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**Dreadclaw69**

http://news.yahoo.com/irish-vote-gay-marriage-landmark-referendum-110758359.html

DUBLIN (Reuters) - The Irish voted on Friday on whether to allow gay marriage, just two decades after decriminalizing homosexuality, with a strong early turnout likely to favor the 'Yes' side.

With the once mighty Catholic Church's influence ravaged by child abuse scandals, opinion polls indicated the proposal would pass by as much as two-to-one, making Ireland the first country to adopt same-sex marriage via a popular vote.

On a survey of polling stations at 1200 GMT (0800 ET), Irish national broadcaster RTE said turnout could potentially be one of the highest for a referendum in years.

"It's quite amazing. I'd say at this stage the turnout would be about 50 percent more than the last referendum," James Barry, returning officer for Dublin, told Newstalk radio, referring to the 39 percent who voted in an unsuccessful bid to abolish the upper house of parliament in 2013.

The result may depend on whether younger voters, tens of thousands of whom registered as the campaign gathered momentum, turn out to cast their ballots.

The result, which will be declared on Saturday, may also reveal an urban/rural split. When voters legalized divorce by a razor thin majority in 1995, only five of the 30 constituencies outside Dublin backed the proposal.

International interest made the hashtag #VoteYes the top trending issue on Twitter and thousands of Irish expatriates made the trip home from Britain and as far afield as New York and Sydney to vote, groups encouraging the 'Yes' vote, using the hashtag #hometovote, said.

"I've been genuinely overwhelmed by the scale and the scope of the hometovote movement," said Joey Kavanagh of the Get The Boat 2 Vote group, as he and about 50 others made the eight-hour journey by train and ferry from London to Dublin.

"It's a very festive, celebratory atmosphere. At the moment we're hanging up posters in the lounge and stringing up balloons. People are just very eager to get back."

Gay marriage is backed by all political parties, championed by big employers and endorsed by celebrities, all hoping it will mark a transformation in a country that was long regarded as one of the most socially conservative in Western Europe.

The Catholic Church, whose doctrine teaches that homosexuality is a sin, has mainly limited its 'No' campaigning to sermons to its remaining flock, a marked contrast with active public opposition to similar moves in France and elsewhere.

Instead, lay groups have led the opposition, raising concerns over parenthood and surrogacy rights for gay couples. Many believe the recognition of the legal rights of same-sex couples in 2009 is sufficient.

"I don't think it's necessary because it's covered in the civil partnership arrangements," said Sean, a retiree voting in the leafy Dublin suburb of Blackrock. Only a couple of his friends were voting 'Yes', he said.

"I'm not convinced, I think it's wrong and I don't agree with it."

I'm hoping that this passes

**welshhoppo**

Good on you Ireland. Hope it's a yes.

**Ratius**

It will imo.
Without hyperbole literally everyone I know is voting yes.
Whilst anecdotal at best Id be stunned if this wasnt the pattern country wide.

**Sienisoturi**

Ratius wrote:
It will imo.
Without hyperbole literally everyone I know is voting yes.
Whilst anecdotal at best Id be stunned if this wasnt the pattern country wide.

Capitals tend to be the most liberal places in any country, so it might be that the percentage of supporters outside Dublin is smaller.

**Da Boss**

Really hope this passes! If it does, just sorry I won't be there to drink the tears of the intolerant bigots of the Iona Institute. It was a dirty campaign, with many of the same old faces doing the muck spreading.

My parents live down the country in a fairly poor and conservative area, and even there, and even among their friends, there is not a single No voter that they know. But it could be a "shy No".

Still, excited to see what tomorrow brings, and hopeful that I can be proud to be Irish for once.

**Ratius**

Granted Sien. However I still think itll be a majority yes vote. Youth seems particularly engaged on the matter for once.

**Howard A Treesong**

Some rural areas are very conservative. Again on the news last night we had people arguing against gay marriage because children need a man an a woman to raise them properly. The non sequitur in this argument never gets old. Marriage and children, one does not need the other, plenty of unmarried couples have children and the extension of this logic is that any couple that cannot conceive a child shouldn't be allowed to marry.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Has the result been announced yet?

**Da Boss**

Rural areas also hold under half the country's voters though, so though I agree that rural areas (especially those near the border with Northern Ireland) are likely to be conservative on this issue, the polls seem to suggest that they are outweighed by their liberal neighbours and the large amounts of liberal folk living in the cities of Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick.

Polls are still open, so the result probably won't be clear til the morning I'd reckon.

**Psienesis**

It would take a day or two to tally the votes, no?

**Manchu**

I hope this passes and that it becomes apparent to Irish Catholics that it is not in fact incompatible with their faith.

**Ratius**

Again on the news last night we had people arguing against gay marriage because children need a man an a woman to raise them properly. The non sequitur in this argument never gets old. Marriage and children, one does not need the other, plenty of unmarried couples have children and the extension of this logic is that any couple that cannot conceive a child shouldn't be allowed to marry.

Yes its been tedious to listen to tbh. To the point I simply shut off. All one has to do is walk down Dublins docklands to see a happily married "normal" couple raising their kids responsibly by selling heroin out of the kids buggy.
Ah righto

**Da Boss**

Yeah, but Ratius, won't you please tink of dee tchiltren!

What has disgusted me about the campaign was how often and how blatantly the No side implied that all homosexual men are degenerate paedophiles.

**Manchu**

Da Boss wrote:
tink of dee tchiltren!

LOL

All I can think of is:

Down wit dis sort of ting.

Careful now.

**Silent Puffin?**

My brother in law (well my sister in law's husband what ever that is) is voting no.

**hotsauceman1**

As a proud Irish descendent. Im glad for this.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Again on the news last night we had people arguing against gay marriage because children need a man an a woman to raise them properly. The non sequitur in this argument never gets old. Marriage and children, one does not need the other, plenty of unmarried couples have children and the extension of this logic is that any couple that cannot conceive a child shouldn't be allowed to marry.

I still maintain the opinion that kids do need to be raised by a father and a mother.... Though over time, I have seen and come to realize that sometimes "dad" is a woman, and "mom" is a man. I do still believe that they need to be two separate people, as the statistics still show that single parent household children grow up with more issues than those in the "stability" of a two parent household. In many instances, particularly if you watch enough American sports, you'll see some "sob story" about a poor single mother working 8 jobs and having hell-raiser kids until "Bubba-Joe" got into high school and met Coach McCoacherson who became a father figure to "Bubba". However, for as great a father figure as that guy is, how many other hundreds and thousands of those same athletes end up in jail because they didn't see Coach the same way? Or, because their athletic talent wasnt as great as Bubba's, Coach didn't take the same kind of time?

Anyhow, that's not really the topic here, and I sincerely hope that the vote in Ireland can spring some further action in other Western Nations for further equality under the law.

**Da Boss**

Early indications point to an overwhelming Yes victory- to the point where the No side have conceded defeat already.

Just interested to see the margin of victory and the regional spread of votes, now.

**Sigvatr**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
Again on the news last night we had people arguing against gay marriage because children need a man an a woman to raise them properly. The non sequitur in this argument never gets old. Marriage and children, one does not need the other, plenty of unmarried couples have children and the extension of this logic is that any couple that cannot conceive a child shouldn't be allowed to marry.

I still maintain the opinion that kids do need to be raised by a father and a mother.... Though over time, I have seen and come to realize that sometimes "dad" is a woman, and "mom" is a man. I do still believe that they need to be two separate people, as the statistics still show that single parent household children grow up with more issues than those in the "stability" of a two parent household. In many instances, particularly if you watch enough American sports, you'll see some "sob story" about a poor single mother working 8 jobs and having hell-raiser kids until "Bubba-Joe" got into high school and met Coach McCoacherson who became a father figure to "Bubba". However, for as great a father figure as that guy is, how many other hundreds and thousands of those same athletes end up in jail because they didn't see Coach the same way? Or, because their athletic talent wasnt as great as Bubba's, Coach didn't take the same kind of time?
.

Children need a good role model when they grow up. A boy needs a male role model, a girl needs a female role model, disabled children greatly profit from disabled role models etc. Not "need" as in "do or die", but rather "highly beneficial". Same-sex relationships can certainly raise a child and most certainly better than a lot of regular couples. After all, they have to go through a real struggle to get a child and don't get children "by accident", as many, many regular couples...or even relationships do. Those children, however, should still have access to a corresponding gender role model. This is especially important with boys, early on, as pre-school / elementary school teachers are mostly female.

In regards to the overall motion of the thread: hope it goes through. There's nothing wrong with allowing people to marry whoever they want. Just change tax laws in accordance.

**Da Boss**

Really curious to see if I was right about the Border Counties. Cavan-Monaghan is 50:50 at the moment, when the rest of the country is firmly Yes. Will definitely want to look at the numbers.

Northern Ireland will be the only part of the British Isles where same sex marriage is illegal soon.

(Heh, technically, the Republic of Ireland therefore legalized ssm before the United Kingdom

)

**Howard A Treesong**

Northern Ireland gets to opt out of lots of things being passed by parliament. They are the only part of the UK that doesn't allow gay marriage, still doesn't allow gay men to donate blood, doesn't allow abortion and lagged behind the rest of the UK on both legalisation of homosexuality and equalising ages of consent ('Save Ulster from Sodomy'). It's an embarrassment.

**Sigvatr**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
still doesn't allow gay men to donate blood

There are actually good reasons for this, backed up by objective data, not homosexual hate.

**Dreadclaw69**

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32856232

Early indications suggest the Republic of Ireland has voted to legalise same-sex marriage in a historic referendum.

More than 3.2m people were asked whether they wanted to amend the country's constitution to allow gay and lesbian couples to marry.

Government ministers have said they believe it will pass, while prominent "no" campaigners have conceded defeat.

Counting started at 09:00 BST on Saturday morning. An "unusually high" turnout has been reported.

A result is expected by mid to late afternoon on Saturday.

If the change is approved, the Republic of Ireland would become the first country to legalise same-sex marriage through a popular vote.

Minister for Equality Aodhan O Riordain said on Twitter: "I'm calling it. Key boxes opened. It's a yes. And a landslide across Dublin. And I'm so proud to be Irish today."

Minister for Health Leo Varadkar, who earlier this year came out as the Republic of Ireland's first openly gay minister, said the campaign had been "almost like a social revolution".
Speaking from the Dublin count, he told Irish broadcaster RTE that it appeared about 75% of votes being counted there were in favour of legalising same-sex marriage.

Some prominent "no" campaigners have already conceded defeat.
David Quinn of the Iona Institute, a Catholic group, said it was "obviously a very impressive victory for the 'yes' side".

"Obviously there's a certain amount of disappointment, but I'm philosophical about the outcome," he told RTE.

"It was always going to be an uphill battle - there were far fewer organisations on the 'no' side, while all the major political parties were lined up on the 'yes' side and you had major corporations coming out for the first time to say how we should vote on a particular issue."

An 'unusually high' turnout has been reported
Dublin, Limerick and Waterford passed the 60% electorate turnout mark, while in Cork, Carlow, Kilkenny, Donegal, Tipperary, Kerry and Galway it was above 50%.

The upper courtyard of Dublin Castle is open to 2,000 people for people to view the declarations on a large screen.

Before Friday, votes had already been cast in some islands as well as hospitals, hospices and nursing homes. Irish citizens who are registered were allowed to vote, but there was no postal voting. Many people returned to Ireland to cast their votes.

They were asked whether they agreed with the statement: "Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex."
The referendum was being held 22 years after homosexual acts were decriminalised in Ireland.

In 2010, the Irish government enacted civil partnership legislation, which provided legal recognition for gay couples.

Banners encouraging voters to support the Yes and the No campaign in the Irish same-sex marriage referendum

The result of the referendum is expected some time on Saturday

But there are some important differences between civil partnership and marriage, the critical one being that marriage is protected in the constitution while civil partnership is not.

Presidential candidates
A constitutional convention established by the Irish government in 2013 considered the specifics of a proposal on extending marriage rights, as well as discussing other changes to the constitution.

It voted in favour of holding a referendum on same-sex marriage and the date was announced by Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Enda Kenny earlier this year.

If the measure is passed, Catholic churches will continue to decide for themselves whether to solemnise a marriage.

The leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Eamon Martin, has said the church may look at whether it continues to perform the civil side of solemnisation if the change comes in.

A separate referendum, on whether the eligibility age of presidential candidates should be lowered from 35 to 21, was being held at the same time, along with a parliamentary by-election in the Carlow-Kilkenny constituency.

Same-sex marriage is currently legal in 19 countries worldwide.

**Jimsolo**

Sigvatr wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
still doesn't allow gay men to donate blood

There are actually good reasons for this, backed up by objective data, not homosexual hate.

I'm given to understand that this data is neither current not remotely objective.

**Sienisoturi**

Jimsolo wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
still doesn't allow gay men to donate blood

There are actually good reasons for this, backed up by objective data, not homosexual hate.

I'm given to understand that this data is neither current not remotely objective.

Has there been any more current data? inb4 link to an article, I want to see the actual study paper.

**Silent Puffin?**

Sigvatr wrote:

There are actually good reasons for this, backed up by objective data, not homosexual hate.

Not really. Its based on an increased risk of HIV and that it can take months for HIV antibodies to be produced. In the UK, gay men can donate blood if they have not had sex in the last 12 months as this is deemed to be a safe window for detectable antibody production. The risk is very small although blood transfusion is so heavily regulated that tiny risks are given very serious consideration.

A blanket ban is completely unnecessary and to be honest the current system is on some pretty shaky ground. I expect it to be revised in the near future.

**Sigvatr**

Jimsolo wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
still doesn't allow gay men to donate blood

There are actually good reasons for this, backed up by objective data, not homosexual hate.

I'm given to understand that this data is neither current not remotely objective.

Not going in-depth in this here, just as a first number as of the Robert Koch institute, 2013, 75% of newly infected HIV victims were homosexual men. The significantally higher risk to infect yourself with HIV among homosexual men is the main reason for why they are not allowed to donate blood. This isn't a blanket ban, however, as they may still donate blood if taking a HIV test. They just don't get a blanket allowance and have to take more obstacles than straight men have to - for objective reasons.

/e: Talking of Germany / France here, but there's a very recent EU court verdict (end of April '15) that states what I described above. Disallowing male homosexuals from donating blood is fully in order if certain requirements are met. As the UK / GB is still part of the EU, they can just refer to said verdict but also have to follow it by not maintaining blanket bans.

**Silent Puffin?**

Sigvatr wrote:
75% of newly infected HIV victims were homosexual.

In the UK its about 50% and as there is a mandatory lifestyle questionnaire that has to be taken before donating blood (I believe that this is EU wide) high risk individuals can be weeded out (of any sexuality). For example a group that is deemed to be high risk of HIV infection are prostitutes and they are dealt with via the questionnaire. There are perfectly reasonable arguments for removing a blanket ban on Gay men donating blood.

**Ketara**

Sigvatr wrote:

Children need a good role model when they grow up. A boy needs a male role model, a girl needs a female role model, disabled children greatly profit from disabled role models etc. Not "need" as in "do or die", but rather "highly beneficial". Same-sex relationships can certainly raise a child and most certainly better than a lot of regular couples. After all, they have to go through a real struggle to get a child and don't get children "by accident", as many, many regular couples...or even relationships do. Those children, however, should still have access to a corresponding gender role model. This is especially important with boys, early on, as pre-school / elementary school tea

I like the idea that gender-based role models seem to be restricted to biological sex. They can teach them how only boys can use blue toys, and girls pink ones. Otherwise, you might have kids not learning how to function as the clearly delineated gender society expects them to be. And that would be terrible.

**Sienisoturi**

Ketara wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:

Children need a good role model when they grow up. A boy needs a male role model, a girl needs a female role model, disabled children greatly profit from disabled role models etc. Not "need" as in "do or die", but rather "highly beneficial". Same-sex relationships can certainly raise a child and most certainly better than a lot of regular couples. After all, they have to go through a real struggle to get a child and don't get children "by accident", as many, many regular couples...or even relationships do. Those children, however, should still have access to a corresponding gender role model. This is especially important with boys, early on, as pre-school / elementary school tea

I like the idea that gender-based role models seem to be restricted to biological sex. They can teach them how only boys can use blue toys, and girls pink ones. Otherwise, you might have kids not learning how to function as the clearly delineated gender society expects them to be. And that would be terrible.

Could you please elaborate this a little bit more?