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 Easy E wrote:
I blame Diocletian for this!

I think the Jews must behind this

I find the American cultural attitude towards military service to be quite strange. Kinda cute and likeable in a certain way, but a bit scary too. Like America overall: Kinda a big friendly dog that you'd never want to turn on you.

My brother is an ex-marine, but he served in a foreign military. I feel pretty neutral about it. It was a job he did and he was good at it, I don't particularly agree with it in the same way that I don't agree with deforestation, but I don't personally hate loggers. He doesn't tell anyone in Ireland what he did, because we don't have much of a military and serving with the brits is likely to see you get some hassle of various degrees of severity where I'm from. Despite that, I've a couple of uncles and a grand-uncle that I know went to Britain to join up, though one deserted afterwards and was never heard from again, so maybe we're not a proper "warrior" family.

My fiancée is German though, and she pretty strongly dislikes soldiers of any stripe. It took her a long time to warm to my brother. Looking at even the recent history of Germany (the role of the East German military in essentially trapping their people in that half of the country is mind blowing to me) I can see why, but it's certainly made me look at my own views, because in most conversations I'm the one getting criticised for being too anti-military, but she's even further on that side than me.

I do think that the military in all countries deserves careful scrutiny and I don't believe that soldiers are really any different than the rest of us in terms of how many of them are good or bad people.

 sing your life wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I blame Diocletian for this!

I think the Jews must behind this

You see, Diocletian is funny because he started the system in the late Roman Empire where sons had to go into the same occupation as their father's.... that way key jobs would always be filled, jobs like Blacksmithing, weavers, sailors, soldiers, etc. That naturally led to a sort of proto-fuedal caste system, where military families retained the rights to bear arms and were obligated to....oh nevermind.

Sure, some of our officer corps consists of "family dynasties". When your dad is a general as was his dad before him you probably feel some pressure to try for officer yourself.

But they're just a tiny part of it all in a country with mandatory service - a majority of males still complete their time of service and join the reserves. We don't really see a military career as anything strange, it's just a job some people choose to do. Everyone who served knows some officers, and if you do voluntary reserve training you personally know the guys responsible for your area in a crisis. They're just people like the rest of us.

These are great posts, however I think that the key point I was trying to make got lost in my Initial post and the comments that followed.

My Grand Fathers (both sides) served 1-2 enlistments/Contracts (officer) my uncle served 8 years. Myself, my brother and both my niece and nephew served 1 enlistment and got out. the only one in my immediate family making a career out of the military is my Wife. So I am not referring to the Lifers or the career military members, but instead to those individuals, and specifically families who see it almost as an obligation to serve a term or two on the front lines before continuing with their lives.

As to some of the other posts, (I apologize I just moved and I have Zero internet so im only on occasionally when doing other things such as school work) No, I don't think that the military should be a prerequisite for senators or congressmen, though I do feel that their opinions about wars hold more weight, at least personally. Nobody can truly understand war unless you have fought in one, with that in mind, whenever a congressmen/woman speaks about war and they haven't served I don't feel their opinion holds as much water as others. On the other hand, I DO believe that the president should be required to serve in the US military at some point before being allowed to run for office. As the Commander and Chief I think having at least 4 years military behind him would be a good thing. Bush jr might not have tried to nation build if he had known the kind of hell he put us through, and Obama might have shut his mouth about time tables if he had known tactics and strategic planning instead of a a couple years as a junior senator.

On to the topic of "Don't say that to him he's a vet" I have heard that and I am guilty of saying it myself. However, the only times I say it and the only times I have heard it was extremely relevant. A person was picking on a guy who had lost his legs above his knees in Afghanistan. I basically told the guy if he wanted to pick on a veteran I would be more then happy to beat the hell out of him. I've also used it when debating about the war on terror and about extreme Islam, less to get attention and more to point out that I have a bit more experience in the matter then your average person. much like a nuclear engineer would point out that he has a degree in nuclear technology when debating about the dangers of Nuclear power plants with someone.

Anyway, thank you everyone for the great responses and those who are also apparently "Military" families thank you and Happy Belated Memorial Day.

 Ghazkuul wrote:


My Grand Fathers (both sides) served 1-2 enlistments/Contracts (officer) my uncle served 8 years. Myself, my brother and both my niece and nephew served 1 enlistment and got out. the only one in my immediate family making a career out of the military is my Wife. So I am not referring to the Lifers or the career military members, but instead to those individuals, and specifically families who see it almost as an obligation to serve a term or two on the front lines before continuing with their lives.

I think that most studies do show this "trend" to be true (as in, if a family has one honorably served member in it, it is much more likely to have another).


I suppose one possible explanation isn't so much one borne out of "if you love your country, you are obligated to serve it" but much more of "I served in X, and it helped make me the person I am today" the follow on to that would be of course, that the junior family member respects the senior.

In contrast, I have run across some families with no known military service, and the people my age "hate" the military, "hate" the country, etc. if they have kids, I would be willing to bet a dollar that their children "hate" the military and won't go (unless they develop a rebellious streak and join just to spite the parents)

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:


My Grand Fathers (both sides) served 1-2 enlistments/Contracts (officer) my uncle served 8 years. Myself, my brother and both my niece and nephew served 1 enlistment and got out. the only one in my immediate family making a career out of the military is my Wife. So I am not referring to the Lifers or the career military members, but instead to those individuals, and specifically families who see it almost as an obligation to serve a term or two on the front lines before continuing with their lives.

I think that most studies do show this "trend" to be true (as in, if a family has one honorably served member in it, it is much more likely to have another).


I suppose one possible explanation isn't so much one borne out of "if you love your country, you are obligated to serve it" but much more of "I served in X, and it helped make me the person I am today" the follow on to that would be of course, that the junior family member respects the senior.

In contrast, I have run across some families with no known military service, and the people my age "hate" the military, "hate" the country, etc. if they have kids, I would be willing to bet a dollar that their children "hate" the military and won't go (unless they develop a rebellious streak and join just to spite the parents)

Solid points, the only problem I have with your statement and it is most likely an exception and not necessarily the rule. I never knew any of my Grand parents, they died when I was to young to remember them. My parents, my wifes parents and all my uncles/aunts except 1 (who I am not close with even remotely) did not serve. Their was no chest thumping or overly pro military feelings in my household, and in fact my mother (who I am also not close to at all) was openly against me enlisting ...of course she didn't find out until I was 2 months into Boot camp. So I wonder if it truly is a parenting thing or if their is some Gene in our family trees that makes us more likely to enlist. Crazy I know but I can't see anything in either my family or my wives that would entice 5 members of our generation to enlist around hte same time (well after 9/11)

As well as differences between countries, there are differences between branches of the forces and even the trades too. Ghazkuul talks about "1 enlistment" and that's total gobbledygook to me. I think for an American that means 4 years of service, right?

The minimum contract for my trade in my force today is 12 years (though obviously a lot leave early for various reasons). That means that military service isn't just a right of passage to be gone through by each generation before they get on with their real careers/lives, so it's a lot harder to pass on as a family thing.

I recently met a US marine corporal and she was asked about her medals. One she mentioned was her good conduct medal that had taken her three years to achieve. I had to force myself to not burst out laughing. I'd only received my own good conduct medal a short while before - that bugger took a fifteen year clean record of service to achieve!

 Henry wrote:
As well as differences between countries, there are differences between branches of the forces and even the trades too. Ghazkuul talks about "1 enlistment" and that's total gobbledygook to me. I think for an American that means 4 years of service, right?

The minimum contract for my trade in my force today is 12 years (though obviously a lot leave early for various reasons). That means that military service isn't just a right of passage to be gone through by each generation before they get on with their real careers/lives, so it's a lot harder to pass on as a family thing.

I recently met a US marine corporal and she was asked about her medals. One she mentioned was her good conduct medal that had taken her three years to achieve. I had to force myself to not burst out laughing. I'd only received my own good conduct medal a short while before - that bugger took a fifteen year clean record of service to achieve!

Believe it or not, the marines have it the hardest in the US military when talking about acquiring Medals. Our Good Conduct (Good Cookie) takes 3 years. I personally served 5 years, 1 enlistment for my job specialty is a 5 year AD contract with 3 years IIR. (All US military enlistments are 8 years, No exceptions). I was awarded National Defense Medal, Global War on Terrorism Medal, NATO/ISAF Medal, Sea Service Ribbon, Afghanistan Campaign Medal (2 clusters) and of course 1 Good Conduct medal that I came very close to losing for taking care of my family....not kidding. I also have a plethora of lesser awards such as Cercoms (Certificate of Commendation) and other BS that doesn't get medals or ribbons but which looks pretty on my resume. In comparison a friend who I went to school with who joined the Air Force left after 4 years with something like 8 Medals/Ribbons, even though they never deployed and didn't even do anything exceptional except show up to work.

With all that said, trust me I know how hard it is for the Brits, I worked with the Black Watch, the 9th and 12th Royal Lancers and a bunch of other famous British units while deployed. You guys just don't have the same style of awards we do. Most of our awards are meaningless, its the Bronze Star and up that really matter....well I had a buddy who got a NAM (Naval Achievement Medal) with V For valor....he literally drew fire from a sniper so we could find the sniper and kill him. I believe my buddy Sgt Black put him up for a Silver star and they reduced the hell out of it specifically because they didn't like my buddy....he was a good Mick though

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Henry wrote:
As well as differences between countries, there are differences between branches of the forces and even the trades too. Ghazkuul talks about "1 enlistment" and that's total gobbledygook to me. I think for an American that means 4 years of service, right?

The minimum contract for my trade in my force today is 12 years (though obviously a lot leave early for various reasons). That means that military service isn't just a right of passage to be gone through by each generation before they get on with their real careers/lives, so it's a lot harder to pass on as a family thing.

I recently met a US marine corporal and she was asked about her medals. One she mentioned was her good conduct medal that had taken her three years to achieve. I had to force myself to not burst out laughing. I'd only received my own good conduct medal a short while before - that bugger took a fifteen year clean record of service to achieve!

Believe it or not, the marines have it the hardest in the US military when talking about acquiring Medals. Our Good Conduct (Good Cookie) takes 3 years. I personally served 5 years, 1 enlistment for my job specialty is a 5 year AD contract with 3 years IIR. (All US military enlistments are 8 years, No exceptions). I was awarded National Defense Medal, Global War on Terrorism Medal, NATO/ISAF Medal, Sea Service Ribbon, Afghanistan Campaign Medal (2 clusters) and of course 1 Good Conduct medal that I came very close to losing for taking care of my family....not kidding. I also have a plethora of lesser awards such as Cercoms (Certificate of Commendation) and other BS that doesn't get medals or ribbons but which looks pretty on my resume. In comparison a friend who I went to school with who joined the Air Force left after 4 years with something like 8 Medals/Ribbons, even though they never deployed and didn't even do anything exceptional except show up to work.

With all that said, trust me I know how hard it is for the Brits, I worked with the Black Watch, the 9th and 12th Royal Lancers and a bunch of other famous British units while deployed. You guys just don't have the same style of awards we do. Most of our awards are meaningless, its the Bronze Star and up that really matter....well I had a buddy who got a NAM (Naval Achievement Medal) with V For valor....he literally drew fire from a sniper so we could find the sniper and kill him. I believe my buddy Sgt Black put him up for a Silver star and they reduced the hell out of it specifically because they didn't like my buddy....he was a good Mick though

The IDF barely even awards medals. Nobody who participated in Cast Lead received a campaign medal at all because it was considered a "military action" and not a war, whereas everyone who participated in the Lebanon War in 2006 received a medal.

In the country's history, the Medal of Valor has only been awarded 40 times.

The IDF is pretty stingy with their medals.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
"You cant criticize him, he is a vet"

I've never heard that said.

This idea has been floating about for some time. It got considerably worse with the inflation of hyper-patriotism after 9/11. The last national news story (and here on Dakka) that I can recall where this trope was used was the arrest of the Marine in Mexico; the guy knowingly broke the law but since he was a veteran it didn't matter, Obama need to break international law and violate the sovereignty of Mexico and rescue him from prison. Any attempt to explain that he was a criminal was shouted down because of his military service; he was hero with PTSD.

So no, the line, "You can't criticize him because he's a vet!" might not be used in the those exact terms, the idea of that is definitely there (you're anti-American if you criticize veterans of the military). It's been happening with the police as of late too.

As a Canadian it's really odd since we poke fun at our military a lot.
I don't see any reason to exempt anyone from scorn or such thing.
They chose to go into the army!

I have no family in the military, last time any military saw us serve was in WW2.

I remember on some facebook group dedicated to various dumb photo's there was one of some teenager stepping on a US flag and the Americans went insane.
Everyone from other countries found it hilarious and poked fun at them (like they try the old "if it was your flag you'd care) and no I wouldn't.
Canada is just a place I was born and live because I don't make enough money to think about moving.

TLDR you Americans are weird.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
As a Canadian it's really odd since we poke fun at our military a lot.
I don't see any reason to exempt anyone from scorn or such thing.
They chose to go into the army!

I have no family in the military, last time any military saw us serve was in WW2.

I remember on some facebook group dedicated to various dumb photo's there was one of some teenager stepping on a US flag and the Americans went insane.
Everyone from other countries found it hilarious and poked fun at them (like they try the old "if it was your flag you'd care) and no I wouldn't.
Canada is just a place I was born and live because I don't make enough money to think about moving.

TLDR you Americans are weird.

Hey, don't just have a go at the spams, us Brits are pretty nuts too. If someone burns a poppy in protest over here everyone loses their heads, like you've massacred a truck full of babies or something. It's now illegal to do it - they've made it a hate crime. It's the first thing I point out nowadays whenever anybody uses the dumb line "it's a free country" or "freedom of speech". We aren't the US, we don't have anything like their first amendment (for all that I slag off the US, I consider the first amendment one of the finest achievements of humanity).

We're also pretty bad at the unwarranted hero worship of the military too. A few years ago an SAS lad decided he'd bring some guns back from the desert as souvenirs. When he was found out he was in a big pile of dung for breaking the law. There was a massive campaign to free him - not on grounds of PTSD, or anything substantial - purely because he is a veteran. Apparently if you are military the law of the land doesn't apply to you so long as you get a really good Facebook campaign going.