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This issue arose during an Apoc game we were playing. My grav cents were locked in combat with spawned zombies. A blast scattered and killed the last remaining zombie. I went to make a consolidation move and was told I couldn't because we were in the shooting phase. My argument was that the rulebook stated that at the end of combat you can consolidate. Well the combat was over in the shooting phase. I was over-ruled by the organizer. I'm curious as to what others think. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

I think there was another thread about this not too long ago and I'm pretty sure the consensus was that you didn't get to consolidate. I'd try finding that.

Found a thread with 5 posts. Seems inconclusive. Rules as written it says when a combat is over, if an opponent's unit is completely destroyed, that unit may consolidate. Whatever the condition is that caused one side to be killed, it seems as though you can consolidate. It says nothing about it being at the end of the assault phase. If your enemy is destroyed at any point, the combat is over as it states in the rulebook. Can anyone provide a good argument for that unit not getting it?

I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but as a permissive set, you only do what the books says to do. Does the book say that whenever all enemies are destroyed that combat is over? Is "combat is over" ever defined? If not, then combat is not over and no consolidation occurs during other phases, because "combat is over" never occurs - you simply change from a state of "locked in combat" to a state of no longer being "locked in combat".

However, if there is a statement of when "combat is over", and that occurs whenever all enemies are destroyed while locked in combat, then you'd have a good argument. However, as far as I'm aware, combat can be over while still remaining "locked in combat", as combat is over once all models have performed their actions during the initiative steps, making end of combat occur slightly before the end of the assault phase.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
Found a thread with 5 posts. Seems inconclusive. Rules as written it says when a combat is over, if an opponent's unit is completely destroyed, that unit may consolidate. Whatever the condition is that caused one side to be killed, it seems as though you can consolidate. It says nothing about it being at the end of the assault phase. If your enemy is destroyed at any point, the combat is over as it states in the rulebook. Can anyone provide a good argument for that unit not getting it?

The rules for consolidation are in the "Determine Assault Results" section of the "Fight Sub-Phase", which are in turn a part of the "Assault Phase". You aren't in the Assault Phase. You aren't in a Fight Sub-Phase. You certainly aren't Determining Assault Results. As such, you shouldn't be following out of context results.

To summarize, the rules for consolidation are found in the Fight Sub-Phase. You have no permission to invoke them at any other time. If you wanted to invoke them during a Shooting Phase, you would need to demonstrate that you're currently in the Determine Assault Results step of a Fight Sub-Phase. I think you'll find that's impossible to do as no Fight Sub-Phases ever happen during the Shooting Phase.

End of Combat is never clearly defined, but BRB 53 is the last page of the assault phase of the rules, and it has two conditions:

1) End of combat - if no side falls back, pile in.

2) End of combat - if opponents are all destroyed or falling back, consolidate.

So we see that "end of combat" doesn't mean when the enemy is destroyed, because there are "end of combat" instructions for what to do when they aren't destroyed.

It's not absolutely clear, but based on this, I think if it happens in the shooting phase it doesn't trigger "end of combat" consolidation.

Deathypoo wrote:
End of Combat is never clearly defined, but BRB 53 is the last page of the assault phase of the rules, and it has two conditions:

1) End of combat - if no side falls back, pile in.

2) End of combat - if opponents are all destroyed or falling back, consolidate.

So we see that "end of combat" doesn't mean when the enemy is destroyed, because there are "end of combat" instructions for what to do when they aren't destroyed.

It's not absolutely clear, but based on this, I think if it happens in the shooting phase it doesn't trigger "end of combat" consolidation.

I'd actually argue that it's pretty clear. All of the rules for End of Combat are found in the Determine Assault Results section of the Fight Sub-Phase. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that combat ends at any other time.

 Kriswall wrote:

Deathypoo wrote:
End of Combat is never clearly defined, but BRB 53 is the last page of the assault phase of the rules, and it has two conditions:

1) End of combat - if no side falls back, pile in.

2) End of combat - if opponents are all destroyed or falling back, consolidate.

So we see that "end of combat" doesn't mean when the enemy is destroyed, because there are "end of combat" instructions for what to do when they aren't destroyed.

It's not absolutely clear, but based on this, I think if it happens in the shooting phase it doesn't trigger "end of combat" consolidation.

I'd actually argue that it's pretty clear. All of the rules for End of Combat are found in the Determine Assault Results section of the Fight Sub-Phase. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that combat ends at any other time.

So you're saying that if you have a unit standing there all by itself, it's still in combat?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BRB page 47...

Units are no longer locked in combat if, at the end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.

My friend and I play very friendly games so this benefits or hurts my opponent as much as it does me. A consolidation of even an inch could mean the difference in having a shooty unit getting assaulted in the next phase. If it's not locked, it's supposed to stand there and get assaulted yet again? Doesn't seem correct

 RavenGuard55 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Deathypoo wrote:
End of Combat is never clearly defined, but BRB 53 is the last page of the assault phase of the rules, and it has two conditions:

1) End of combat - if no side falls back, pile in.

2) End of combat - if opponents are all destroyed or falling back, consolidate.

So we see that "end of combat" doesn't mean when the enemy is destroyed, because there are "end of combat" instructions for what to do when they aren't destroyed.

It's not absolutely clear, but based on this, I think if it happens in the shooting phase it doesn't trigger "end of combat" consolidation.

I'd actually argue that it's pretty clear. All of the rules for End of Combat are found in the Determine Assault Results section of the Fight Sub-Phase. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that combat ends at any other time.

So you're saying that if you have a unit standing there all by itself, it's still in combat?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BRB page 47...

Units are no longer locked in combat if, at the end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.

My friend and I play very friendly games so this benefits or hurts my opponent as much as it does me. A consolidation of even an inch could mean the difference in having a shooty unit getting assaulted in the next phase. If it's not locked, it's supposed to stand there and get assaulted yet again? Doesn't seem correct

I don't think he said that at all. He's just saying that no "end of combat" effects take place, because a time called "end of combat" never happened. It's like skipping a meal, sure the time of day around which you'd have lunch may have happened, but if "lunchtime" never happened it doesn't mean that you can't have "suppertime". End of Combat is a specific time frame, it's not the time that you stopped being locked in combat though. As you just pointed out, that actually occurs separately. In fact, by the rule you just quoted, a unit that finished combat and consolidates is STILL locked in combat until the end of the phase! (just in case that somehow mattered)

There is an end of combat event. The enemy is destroyed and no other enemy models are in base contact. That's a condition of consolidate.

The end of combat, as pointed out by Kriswall, is part of the Determine Results section of the Fight Sub-Phase. The end of combat always occurs at this time and has two results; either pile in, or consolidate. The way to determine which of the two you do at that time is by seeing if anything's left.

In other words, it's a noun, a title describing what the time is called. They could call it "the denouement", and it would follow the exact same rules. The only reason for this confusion is that "end of combat" sounds like (but isn't) "whenever this unit is no longer locked in combat". Those are not the same thing though. One is a triggered event, the other is a timed event.

If it was in your opponents turn, he could have charged in anyway as you would have been stuck in combat so it makes little difference. The rule you posted states you are still locked til the end of the phase, so he cant target you in the same shooting phase.
It also means that if it was your turn, you would not be able to run

 Yarium wrote:
The end of combat, as pointed out by Kriswall, is part of the Determine Results section of the Fight Sub-Phase. The end of combat always occurs at this time and has two results; either pile in, or consolidate. The way to determine which of the two you do at that time is by seeing if anything's left.

In other words, it's a noun, a title describing what the time is called. They could call it "the denouement", and it would follow the exact same rules. The only reason for this confusion is that "end of combat" sounds like (but isn't) "whenever this unit is no longer locked in combat". Those are not the same thing though. One is a triggered event, the other is a timed event.

Where does it clarify a triggered event? And "sounds like (but isn't)" seems like one interpretation of the rule. This is sounding more and more like a rule as intended over a rule as written scenario.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Deathypoo wrote:
End of Combat is never clearly defined, but BRB 53 is the last page of the assault phase of the rules, and it has two conditions:

1) End of combat - if no side falls back, pile in.

2) End of combat - if opponents are all destroyed or falling back, consolidate.

So we see that "end of combat" doesn't mean when the enemy is destroyed, because there are "end of combat" instructions for what to do when they aren't destroyed.

It's not absolutely clear, but based on this, I think if it happens in the shooting phase it doesn't trigger "end of combat" consolidation.

I'd actually argue that it's pretty clear. All of the rules for End of Combat are found in the Determine Assault Results section of the Fight Sub-Phase. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that combat ends at any other time.

So you're saying that if you have a unit standing there all by itself, it's still in combat?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BRB page 47...

Units are no longer locked in combat if, at the end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.

My friend and I play very friendly games so this benefits or hurts my opponent as much as it does me. A consolidation of even an inch could mean the difference in having a shooty unit getting assaulted in the next phase. If it's not locked, it's supposed to stand there and get assaulted yet again? Doesn't seem correct

That's not at all what I'm saying. There is a huge difference between an event occurring that causes a model to no longer be locked in combat where there is no mention of a Consolidation move and the Determine Assault Results step of the Fight Sub-Phase occurring, where there IS mention of a Consolidation Move.

No longer being locked in combat is not the same as determining assault results at the end of a combat. There is no rules in the rule books that say you perform a consolidate move when you're no longer locked in combat. The only consolidate rules require a fight sub-phase to be ending.

But if I'm not in hand to hand entering the assault phase, why do I get to consolidate at all then? It seems as if that unit is stuck exactly where it is then until the movement phase of the controlling player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if the remaining enemy is killed in the shooting phase and unit left standing no longer qualifies for being locked in combat, can that unit be targeted in that shooting phase?

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
But if I'm not in hand to hand entering the assault phase, why do I get to consolidate at all then? It seems as if that unit is stuck exactly where it is then until the movement phase of the controlling player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if the remaining enemy is killed in the shooting phase and unit left standing no longer qualifies for being locked in combat, can that unit be targeted in that shooting phase?

The rule you quoted from page 47 states that you are locked in combat until the end of the phase.

 jokerkd wrote:

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
But if I'm not in hand to hand entering the assault phase, why do I get to consolidate at all then? It seems as if that unit is stuck exactly where it is then until the movement phase of the controlling player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if the remaining enemy is killed in the shooting phase and unit left standing no longer qualifies for being locked in combat, can that unit be targeted in that shooting phase?

The rule you quoted from page 47 states that you are locked in combat until the end of the phase.

I'm not seeing what you're talking about.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
I'm not seeing what you're talking about.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
BRB page 47...

Units are no longer locked in combat if, at the end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.

So if your enemy is destroyed in the shooting phase, your unit is still considered to be locked in combat until the end of that shooting phase.

 insaniak wrote:

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
I'm not seeing what you're talking about.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
BRB page 47...

Units are no longer locked in combat if, at the end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.

So if your enemy is destroyed in the shooting phase, your unit is still considered to be locked in combat until the end of that shooting phase.

I just saw that! Ha! Well that answers that question. Still leaves the consolidation question open though.

You consolidate 'at the end of a combat'.

The start of the assault phase section makes it clear that when they refer to 'a combat' they are talking about one of the clusters of fighers that fight during the assault phase. You choose a combat to resolve, you make your attacks, resolve morale, and if your enemy is destroyed or falling back, you get to consolidate.

If you find your opponent suddenyl disappears in a different phase, you're no longer in close combat at the end of that phase, but you haven't just resolved a combat. Reaching the end of the movement phase and no longer being in combat therefore doesn't satisfy the 'at the end of a combat' part of the rule.

So no, you can't consolidate if your enemy goes away in any other phase, unless a special rule specifically says you can.

How is the last model in base contact being killed not the end of that combat?

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
How is the last model in base contact being killed not the end of that combat?

Because, as has been said, it's not the end of combat. That's a time, not a change in being. In the same way, the start of the shooting phase didn't happen when you shoot overwatch.

It's not the end of a combat because you're not fighting a combat. You're resolving your movement phase.

Combats happen in the assault phase.

But they're locked in combat thru the ensuing movement phase and shooting phase. Or is this incorrect?

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
But they're locked in combat thru the ensuing movement phase and shooting phase. Or is this incorrect?

No, as per the rule quoted earlier, if the enemy unit you are locked in combat with disappears during the movement phase, your unit is no longer considered locked from the end of that phase.

 insaniak wrote:

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
But they're locked in combat thru the ensuing movement phase and shooting phase. Or is this incorrect?

No, as per the rule quoted earlier, if the enemy unit you are locked in combat with disappears during the movement phase, your unit is no longer considered locked from the end of that phase.

I'm sorry. I guess that was unclear. 2 models are locked in combat at the end of the assault phase and the turn is over. Are those 2 models still "in combat" in that insuing movement phase and shooting phase waiting for resolution in that turn's assault phase?

That is correct. But, like I've said over and over, just being out of combat doesn't mean you reached the end of combat step, you're simply done being in combat and are no longer locked after the end of the phase. If you shoot overwatch, did you just start the shooting phase? Your question makes just as much sense, similar to "so you're saying you don't start the shooting phase after the movement phase? "

How is that remotely the same? It says at the end of a combat. If they're in combat during other phases and that combat doesn't exist, how does that not qualify as an end of combat? That's the part I'm not understanding. The combat is over. Over=end. If it said anywhere that combat only occurs in the assault phase then I can see the consolidation only working in the assault phase. I can't find in the book where it says that though. If someone could point me to the page and paragraph where it defines "combat", I'd most appreciate it.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
I'm sorry. I guess that was unclear. 2 models are locked in combat at the end of the assault phase and the turn is over. Are those 2 models still "in combat" in that insuing movement phase and shooting phase waiting for resolution in that turn's assault phase?

They're still Locked in combat, yes.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
If they're in combat during other phases and that combat doesn't exist, how does that not qualify as an end of combat?

It doesn't qualify because when the assault phase refers to 'a combat' it is refering to the specific process that is outlined in the assault phase rules, not the general melee that technically exists for the entire turn.

The way I see it now, "End of Combat" refers to the ROUND of fighting in the assault phase. That's why you can "pile in" as an "end of combat" result, when you're clearly still "locked in combat." Under your definition of "end of combat" as a thing that happens when models are no longer "locked in combat," you could never pile in.

You can't have the "end of combat" in your shooting phase, because the last round of combat already ended, and the next one hasn't started yet.