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 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:
Why? Would you disrespect your opponents and ruin the game atmosphere by fielding a poorly painted army?

Because there's a huge difference between painting to a decent tabletop standard and matching the level of FW's work. Virtually anyone can easily paint to a decent tabletop standard if they're willing to invest the time and effort, so the only reason (outside of a very small number of exceptional cases like physical disabilities) would have an unpainted army is if they just don't care enough to do it. But not everyone can match the much higher level of quality that FW produces, especially without dedicating huge amounts of time and effort to learning. It's the difference between "stop being lazy" and "you suck for not being born with natural artistic talent".

"Tabletop standard" is cringeworthy.

Be right back.

...I do not think you know what that word means.

This is the absolute best I can do, in general terms. It is tabletop standard. I have been painting for 3 years now.
[img=http://s28.postimg.org/txv67bu09/image.jpg]

[img=http://s28.postimg.org/65luvsrzd/image.jpg]

Few years of practise more and you could be allowed to play in a FLGS.

 Talizvar wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:
This is the absolute best I can do, in general terms. It is tabletop standard. I have been painting for 3 years now.
[img=http://s28.postimg.org/txv67bu09/image.jpg]
[img=http://s28.postimg.org/65luvsrzd/image.jpg]

This is awesome.
Probably 5X better than what I would "settle" being happy to see fielded.
My opinion in a sea of many differing ones I know.
I really should get my army together and take a picture but my BT is this:
Excuse the picture, I was showing script on model techniques.

Time to buy a few buckets of toy soldiers.

I have been playing at an FLGS a while now. I do not see your point and have clicked the yellow triangle of friendship on all of your posts.

Could I have some pictures of your own work if you have such extreme views?

Talizvar, your work is fantastic. I blame my crappy camera work for making my models look decent. This is a proper photo, so the flaws can be seen.
Photo taken of my army at my local game store on 5/13. Far better quality photo than I can take.

 carlos13th wrote:
To sum up my post in short. Play how you want with who you want and allow others to do the same.

I have to add that no-one can really "force" this requirement.
I think this is more of a want/attempt at a cultural push of why accept the minimum?
My problem is bouncing around between 4 game systems and more armies than you can shake a stick at and getting "bored" half-way through painting.
We can all compare excuses but a little bit a night will get it done and you have to admit, painted looks better.

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
So, around my FLGS there have been some new 40k players, and its been nice. I've gotten in some more PUGs than I usually do, but out of the 6ish new players, none of them have painted armies. My stuff isn't that great, but it's painted. The closest that any of then has is one guy who draws on the models with pertinent markers. It's kind of annoying honestly, because when I got into the game, it was what we did, not this amazing standout thing that happens rarely. Any of you finding this issue too?

Its the release schedule combined with lack of standards of both stores, tournaments and players themselves.

GW pegged their customers correctly when they said that buying models is part of the hobby, I know a lot of people with still in box models that will never see a table.

 Talizvar wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
To sum up my post in short. Play how you want with who you want and allow others to do the same.

I have to add that no-one can really "force" this requirement.
I think this is more of a want/attempt at a cultural push of why accept the minimum?
My problem is bouncing around between 4 game systems and more armies than you can shake a stick at and getting "bored" half-way through painting.
We can all compare excuses but a little bit a night will get it done and you have to admit, painted looks better.

Yeah I realize it cant be enforced well not technically but you can make people who haven't painted their models yet utterly unwelcome in your local game store and make them leave the hobby. Going at it in an aggressive way towards people who haven't painted their models isn't the way to go about it. As I said encourage people to get into painting and help build them up don't instead knock them down for not conforming to your standards.

Verviedi, don't even stoop down to the level of Surn. Your models look great and I'd be happy to play against them.

Surn, belittling someone's painting like that is an absolute donkey-cave move.

I suppose that he somewhat suceeded in creating a response in me, so I am enabling him. I will stop responding to his barbs.

 Verviedi wrote:
I suppose that he somewhat suceeded in creating a response in me, so I am enabling him. I will stop responding to his barbs.

Yes, do. Your models are fine, better than mine!

 Verviedi wrote:
Talizvar, your work is fantastic. I blame my crappy camera work for making my models look decent. This is a proper photo, so the flaws can be seen.
Photo taken of my army at my local game store on 5/13. Far better quality photo than I can take.

Okay, looking hard for flaws... great thing about this topic is getting better at things.
Uh, picture still is not ideal, I can only assume you are being critical because maybe washes are not applied or very little?
I started out painting metallics on CSM Black Legion and found that the edges would look like garbage to me.
Washes seemed to fix that or I would "cheat" with a fine black ink pen to sharpen the border.
Maybe a bit of red wash on the cloaks? Again hard to tell.
The deal breaker will be not drilling or painting the tips of the guns differently: it just ruins the realism.
Those GW washes or the variants you can make (acrylic inks with flow aid) have been the best painting shortcut in years... dips are mixed results but are worth considering.
I am glad you got the white stripe on the tank, it is striking.
Applying the decals was a good fussy thing to do (I HATE doing those but feel they must be done).
You may have to add more char on that plasma guy.
Though the heresy of a Tau disk no matter how expertly applied may be unforgivable... what happened to a classic servo-skull? if you needed to up-size use an Ogryn skull though it may not have much space inside it.
My same models of this force is in boxes at the moment so I really cannot say more and not be a hypocrite.

I LIKE critique in the spirit of getting better at something you want to get better at.
I have not seen anyone judge any paint job when facing it and exclaiming it is no good.
Usually it is relief and expressing it is great to see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carlos13th wrote:
[Yeah I realize it cant be enforced well not technically but you can make people who haven't painted their models yet utterly unwelcome in your local game store and make them leave the hobby. Going at it in an aggressive way towards people who haven't painted their models isn't the way to go about it. As I said encourage people to get into painting and help build them up don't instead knock them down for not conforming to your standards.

It is a bit different in a forum than at a FLGS.
We tend to vent here, say the things we would not say at the store.
I had to get 100 grunts of Imperial Guard done for a big scrap with a friend's force.
For a lark, I brought them to my FLGS to work on for the day.
I had more people interested in assembly, priming, painting, materials for masking, airbrush... it was a support group and had someone settle down and started working on stuff with me.
It made it more fun than working in my basement, sometimes it seems too much like work so painting get-together events would be a good idea.
Some casual peer pressure in a gaming group could be a good thing.

I have an incredibly long wall of text detailing my Archmagos' backstory. I won't put it here, but as a summary:

He's a heretek fleeing into Tauspace. He believes that all technology is blessed by the Omnissiah, and the idea that just human tech is special is illogical. He uses Tau drones and some other bits in his forces.

A while ago he purged all of the Puritan AdMech officials from his fleet, the Skitarii are too brainwashed anyway to know the difference, and his Cult Mech forces are all loyal to him above the "Puritans" on Mars.

He still uses the symbol of Mars on his forces, because it's his homeworld and a world blessed by the Omnissiah, but is also willing to modify and utilize Xenotech for the purposes of reclaiming lost knowledge.

I have Servo-skulls on models that can have them (High ranking officials).

 Verviedi wrote:
I have an incredibly long wall of text detailing my Archmagos' backstory. I won't put it here, but as a summary:

He's a heretek fleeing into Tauspace. He believes that all technology is blessed by the Omnissiah, and the idea that just human tech is special is illogical. He uses Tau drones and some other bits in his forces.

A while ago he purged all of the Puritan AdMech officials from his fleet, the Skitarii are too brainwashed anyway to know the difference, and his Cult Mech forces are all loyal to him above the "Puritans" on Mars.

He still uses the symbol of Mars on his forces, because it's his homeworld and a world blessed by the Omnissiah, but is also willing to modify and utilize Xenotech for the purposes of reclaiming lost knowledge.

I have Servo-skulls on models that can have them (High ranking officials).

I like that idea. Sounds like there's a lot of cool conversion opportunities.

 Ravenous D wrote:
GW pegged their customers correctly when they said that buying models is part of the hobby, I know a lot of people with still in box models that will never see a table.

Then you will find my hobby shelf amusing. Except for character HQs (because you're not going to field multiples, and they're very expensive), as soon as I consume a kit in modelling, I restock it on my hobby shelf, so that if I want a part from that kit, I'll have it. On top of that, I don't feel unpainted models are lost money, because if I ever quit 40k, I could simply eBay my all my BNIB shelves and probably **make a profit** over the price I paid for the product -- based on buying it at a good discount AND price increases through the years.

In fact, some models like Void Shield Generator, or even Plasma Obliterator, which I have a couple of in box, will sell for insane prices if I choose to do so. To take that last example, Plasma Obliterator is $150-$175 on ebay, and I paid... something like $75? That's a great reason to buy one and put it on your shelf, whether you paint it or not.

 j31c3n wrote:
1: I don't like playing against unpainted models.

2: Sorry, but I really like playing the game and I don't have time to paint.

1: Yes you do, for I know all the circumstances of your life better than you do. Dance, peasant!

If you have time to spend several hours playing a game of 40k then you have time to paint your models.

 Peregrine wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
1: I don't like playing against unpainted models.

2: Sorry, but I really like playing the game and I don't have time to paint.

1: Yes you do, for I know all the circumstances of your life better than you do. Dance, peasant!

If you have time to spend several hours playing a game of 40k then you have time to paint your models.

Of course he may enjoy playing 40k but not painting. So priorities the free time he has to play the game he wants to play instead of doing things to make other people happy..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
[Yeah I realize it cant be enforced well not technically but you can make people who haven't painted their models yet utterly unwelcome in your local game store and make them leave the hobby. Going at it in an aggressive way towards people who haven't painted their models isn't the way to go about it. As I said encourage people to get into painting and help build them up don't instead knock them down for not conforming to your standards.

It is a bit different in a forum than at a FLGS.
We tend to vent here, say the things we would not say at the store.
I had to get 100 grunts of Imperial Guard done for a big scrap with a friend's force.
For a lark, I brought them to my FLGS to work on for the day.
I had more people interested in assembly, priming, painting, materials for masking, airbrush... it was a support group and had someone settle down and started working on stuff with me.
It made it more fun than working in my basement, sometimes it seems too much like work so painting get-together events would be a good idea.
Some casual peer pressure in a gaming group could be a good thing.

Your example here is a perfect way to help people paint. Turning up and painting in store is a fantstic way to do it. Having regular painting nights with people there to chat to or just posting up on face book saying I am going to go down to x to do some painting anyone else want to come is a fun inclusive way to get people involved. Saying no one who hasnt painted their army should be banned from play in the FLGS is not the way to do it. Not that I am accusing you of doing that btw. Just that if someone wants the goal of more players with painted armies they may want to try to carrot more than the stick and try helping people to paint rather than trying to claim superiority over the non painting great unwashed.

In the last place I lived me and a friend used to get together once every few weeks to paint catch up and play games. We live too far away now but it was a great way for both of us to get some paitning and gaming regularly done.

 carlos13th wrote:
Of course he may enjoy playing 40k but not painting. So priorities the free time he has to play the game he wants to play instead of doing things to make other people happy..

IOW, he doesn't care about the other player's enjoyment of the game.

Also, this doesn't really counter my point that if you have time to play the game you have time to paint your models. Whatever the reason for choosing to play the game instead of painting might be you're still making that choice. You haven't been forced to give up painting because it isn't possible to do it.

 Verviedi wrote:
He's a heretek fleeing into Tauspace. He believes that all technology is blessed by the Omnissiah, and the idea that just human tech is special is illogical. He uses Tau drones and some other bits in his forces.

I know I just read in the new Cult Mechanicus Codex one of the Forge Worlds has been known to heavily "research" xenotech and made some comment that it is not that uncommon for the Deathwatch to conduct raids on groups that overstepped their bounds. It is an ebook on my pad but I can go look that up, it may help the fluff a bit.

I think your force is in the colors of Mars and that is sufficiently big that anything can happen.

Anyway, being on topic: we would not have ANY discussions worth having with a picture of bare plastic models: The reply would be "I am seeing this for what reason? Nice glue work?"

Effort can always be appreciated if anyone has an idea what was involved in getting a finished product.

 carlos13th wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
1: I don't like playing against unpainted models.

2: Sorry, but I really like playing the game and I don't have time to paint.

1: Yes you do, for I know all the circumstances of your life better than you do. Dance, peasant!

If you have time to spend several hours playing a game of 40k then you have time to paint your models.

Of course he may enjoy playing 40k but not painting. So priorities the free time he has to play the game he wants to play instead of doing things to make other people happy..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
[Yeah I realize it cant be enforced well not technically but you can make people who haven't painted their models yet utterly unwelcome in your local game store and make them leave the hobby. Going at it in an aggressive way towards people who haven't painted their models isn't the way to go about it. As I said encourage people to get into painting and help build them up don't instead knock them down for not conforming to your standards.

It is a bit different in a forum than at a FLGS.
We tend to vent here, say the things we would not say at the store.
I had to get 100 grunts of Imperial Guard done for a big scrap with a friend's force.
For a lark, I brought them to my FLGS to work on for the day.
I had more people interested in assembly, priming, painting, materials for masking, airbrush... it was a support group and had someone settle down and started working on stuff with me.
It made it more fun than working in my basement, sometimes it seems too much like work so painting get-together events would be a good idea.
Some casual peer pressure in a gaming group could be a good thing.

Your example here is a perfect way to help people paint. Turning up and painting in store is a fantstic way to do it. Having regular painting nights with people there to chat to or just posting up on face book saying I am going to go down to x to do some painting anyone else want to come is a fun inclusive way to get people involved. Saying no one who hasnt painted their army should be banned from play in the FLGS is not the way to do it. Not that I am accusing you of doing that btw. Just that if someone wants the goal of more players with painted armies they may want to try to carrot more than the stick and try helping people to paint rather than trying to claim superiority over the non painting great unwashed.

In the last place I lived me and a friend used to get together once every few weeks to paint catch up and play games. We live too far away now but it was a great way for both of us to get some paitning and gaming regularly done.

Indeed, as a student I keep in contact with my old buddy while at uni and we set up Skype, comparing paint jobs, discussing rumours and cheese lists and generally having a laugh.

Personally I don't care, it's not in my place to judge or dictate what other people do with their hobbies, nor how they go about doing it, I can understand the irritants sometimes, it can take some of the immersion out of the hobby and the game, but then I understand that not everyone is a confident painter, and some just don't want to and that's fair enough to me.

Well I'm in this hobby for collecting and painting first and gaming second. Where I live there is literally no one, aboslutely zero, zilch, nada, people who even play or collect any of this stuff. I know of all this stuff because I used to live down in the cities and peruse the stores buying DnD stuff. I recall this debate raging on even back then. It's always a cute debate. Judging happens all the time, it's normal and not inherently wrong. I judged every single post in this thread as I read them, I don't go through a single day where I haven't been judged by someone else numerous times. We are pattern seekers and pattern desirers, if we don't see patterns we try to make them and get others to conform to them and in this our clannish mentality arises where we create temporary groups of solidarity based on a common trait or theme. In this case painters vs non-painters. I'm a painter and collector myself and it wouldn't bother me one bit if I never play the game even once. Maybe some irony in that maybe not. I will be moving back down south again where this game is played, I haven't thought much about what it would take for me to refuse to play against someone, even though all my stuff will be painted I'm not sure it would phase me much if my opponent brought blobs of grey. I might silently judge out habit since it's pretty much in my DNA to do so but I'm certain that since I don't take the game seriously anyways that it would take something pretty big for me to refuse to play. On the flip side, I couldn't care less how sensitive my opponant is nor care what makes him/her refuse a game, the game is such a secondary for me that if I we didn't play that day/month/year it wouldn't make me flinch. It's not that I don't like the game, I do, it's just that painting and collecting takes up a much bigger place in my heart then the game itself does. Perhaps in this regard I should consider at least offering some simple basing and washing services if I get fast enough at it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
Of course he may enjoy playing 40k but not painting. So priorities the free time he has to play the game he wants to play instead of doing things to make other people happy..

IOW, he doesn't care about the other player's enjoyment of the game.

Also, this doesn't really counter my point that if you have time to play the game you have time to paint your models. Whatever the reason for choosing to play the game instead of painting might be you're still making that choice. You haven't been forced to give up painting because it isn't possible to do it.

And you don't care about his enjoyment of the game if you wish to force him to spend his time painting to please you rather than just playing the game he wishes to play. Time is a finite thing. Choosing to do one thing removes the time to do another. You have time to paint just don't go to work, you have time to paint just wake up an hour early every day, you have time to paint just don't perform the activity you are doing the painting for. Just because its possible they could give up other things in order to paint does not mean that they have the spare time needed to paint. When people say I dont have the time to do x they don't literally mean there is literally no time in the day with which to do it as you are quite well aware. What they mean is that they cannot currently carve the time out to perform x action because other things that take up said time is more valuable or preferable to them.

Even with a job and 4 kids running around under this roof and 2 dogs it's not all that hard to schedule time for painting. Heck I just spent a full hour on these forums just now. I'd probably have a 5 man squad or more primed and based by now. Time is less an excuse then desire. Some desire to be doing something else. For the moment I desired to spend time on the forums instead of painting. I'd be lying to myself if I said I didn't have the time though.

 carlos13th wrote:
And you don't care about his enjoyment of the game if you wish to force him to spend his time painting to please you rather than just playing the game he wishes to play.

But you could apply this argument to any other form of bad behavior. For example, the guy who bathes once a month just doesn't enjoy bathing and you don't care about his enjoyment of the game if you insist on trying to get him to take a shower and wear clean clothes. There are minimum standards you should be expected to meet if you're going to play a game with other people, and having painted models is one of them.

Time is a finite thing. Choosing to do one thing removes the time to do another. You have time to paint just don't go to work, you have time to paint just wake up an hour early every day, you have time to paint just don't perform the activity you are doing the painting for. Just because its possible they could give up other things in order to paint does not mean that they have the spare time needed to paint. When people say I dont have the time to do x they don't literally mean there is literally no time in the day with which to do it as you are quite well aware. What they mean is that they cannot currently carve the time out to perform x action because other things that take up said time is more valuable or preferable to them.

You're kind of missing the point here. People who say they "don't have time to paint" try to act like they'd have to give up essential things to paint: work, family obligations, etc. They tell the sad story of how they'd be willing to paint, but once they deal with the important stuff they just don't have time for a silly hobby. And then they go spend an afternoon playing 40k. So what they're really saying is "I have time for silly hobby stuff, I just choose not to spend it on painting".

And by your standard of "don't have time" it's just an automatic excuse. If you don't want to paint you don't have time to paint (since even if you have nothing but free time painting would still mean giving up your valuable sitting and staring at the wall time), so the concept of not having time becomes meaningless.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Out of curiousity, Peregrine and Aszubaruzah Surn, where do you draw the lines for what is acceptable or not?

Would this one live up to your standards?

Spoiler:

It's not my newest model and I have gotten a little better (I also fixed the scratched-off paint on the lower right helmet horn), but I am certainly not anywhere near Forge World painter level. I am curious as to how my skill level is regarded by those outside my immediate gaming circle, and as to what exactly constitutes an 'acceptable' standard.

I'm not a painting racist heh but I'd be a bit bothered by this model. I don't think this is your painting skill though, it's just that the white looks horrible, did you paint it on black primer? White is good for mixing or small highlights but for white surfaces I always go for white primer (then shade with greys) because it's hard to pull off with a brush for me, at least using skull white.

The bits where it's not white look ok.

 Peregrine wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
And you don't care about his enjoyment of the game if you wish to force him to spend his time painting to please you rather than just playing the game he wishes to play.

But you could apply this argument to any other form of bad behavior. For example, the guy who bathes once a month just doesn't enjoy bathing and you don't care about his enjoyment of the game if you insist on trying to get him to take a shower and wear clean clothes. There are minimum standards you should be expected to meet if you're going to play a game with other people, and having painted models is one of them.

Time is a finite thing. Choosing to do one thing removes the time to do another. You have time to paint just don't go to work, you have time to paint just wake up an hour early every day, you have time to paint just don't perform the activity you are doing the painting for. Just because its possible they could give up other things in order to paint does not mean that they have the spare time needed to paint. When people say I dont have the time to do x they don't literally mean there is literally no time in the day with which to do it as you are quite well aware. What they mean is that they cannot currently carve the time out to perform x action because other things that take up said time is more valuable or preferable to them.

You're kind of missing the point here. People who say they "don't have time to paint" try to act like they'd have to give up essential things to paint: work, family obligations, etc. They tell the sad story of how they'd be willing to paint, but once they deal with the important stuff they just don't have time for a silly hobby. And then they go spend an afternoon playing 40k. So what they're really saying is "I have time for silly hobby stuff, I just choose not to spend it on painting".

And by your standard of "don't have time" it's just an automatic excuse. If you don't want to paint you don't have time to paint (since even if you have nothing but free time painting would still mean giving up your valuable sitting and staring at the wall time), so the concept of not having time becomes meaningless.

Why is painting models a minimum standard for behaviour? Most people value not smelling disgusting smells of body odur. Not everyone who games value painted models. If a group of people are happy playing with unpainted mdoels together that doesnt effect you. You have still yet to make that case other than the fact you don't like unpainted models personally.

 carlos13th wrote:
Why is painting models a minimum standard for behaviour?

Because the aesthetic side is a major part of miniature wargaming. That's why we use models and not cardboard tokens.

If a group of people are happy playing with unpainted mdoels together that doesnt effect you. You have still yet to make that case other than the fact you don't like unpainted models personally.

Sure, if a group of people all enjoy playing with unpainted models and never play against anyone else I guess they have the right to do that. I will never understand why they would want to, but that's their choice. But in reality it's rarely that kind of situation. The people with unpainted armies usually play against people who do care about painting, so their "everyone agreed not to paint" excuse is no longer valid.

 Blacksails wrote:
Verviedi, don't even stoop down to the level of Surn. Your models look great and I'd be happy to play against them.

Surn, belittling someone's painting like that is an absolute donkey-cave move.

He must be trolling at this point, those minis were too good.

 Peregrine wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
Why is painting models a minimum standard for behaviour?

Because the aesthetic side is a major part of miniature wargaming. That's why we use models and not cardboard tokens.

If a group of people are happy playing with unpainted mdoels together that doesnt effect you. You have still yet to make that case other than the fact you don't like unpainted models personally.

Sure, if a group of people all enjoy playing with unpainted models and never play against anyone else I guess they have the right to do that. I will never understand why they would want to, but that's their choice. But in reality it's rarely that kind of situation. The people with unpainted armies usually play against people who do care about painting, so their "everyone agreed not to paint" excuse is no longer valid.

The aesthetic side of the hobby is not one everyone values equally. It is the most important part for me but not for everyone. So tell people you personally don't want to play against unpainted armies instead of trying to enforce only painted armies on everyone including people you are not currently playing with, which is what I have said from the start. Don't attempt to make your personal preferences rules everyone should follow. No one is forcing you to play against unpainted armies.

 Verviedi wrote:
I have been playing at an FLGS a while now. I do not see your point and have clicked the yellow triangle of friendship on all of your posts.

Could I have some pictures of your own work if you have such extreme views?

Of course. Though I wasn't doing any painting lately.

As you can see, I'm on the stage of a bucket of toy soldiers.

These are Italeri Roman soldiers. I have bought 35 of them for 24pln. IIRC the green guy is an Arabic swordsman, also from Italeri.

It was 5 years ago though. Good times. Was comfortable enough to think about painting miniatures and stuff like that. Nowadays I dread the future too much to be able to do anything like that .

I planned to go through all of them and then through other boxes of cheap toy soldiers but later my life kinda fell apart. I wasn't even able to make myself maintain my mega paint set. Wonder if it's all dry .

Though I wouldn't move to Wh40k miniatures anyway. I hate their proportions.

@Aszubaruzah Surn - I would never speak of your models or models like yours negatively, but by your own standards -- relative to Forge World studio models -- you wouldn't be permitted to buy Citadel or Forge World models. I'm not sure how that would help anyone...

In any case, if you limited gamers to people who produce models that look like this, there would be nobody left to play with or share the hobby with locally, and every hobby shop would go out of business.

 Peregrine wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
Of course he may enjoy playing 40k but not painting. So priorities the free time he has to play the game he wants to play instead of doing things to make other people happy..

IOW, he doesn't care about the other player's enjoyment of the game.

Also, this doesn't really counter my point that if you have time to play the game you have time to paint your models. Whatever the reason for choosing to play the game instead of painting might be you're still making that choice. You haven't been forced to give up painting because it isn't possible to do it.

Only if you have few hours aside of school to play the game, per week you will not have the time to paint stuff. Unless you drop gaming time to paint. But for some people that would be trading something they want to do for something they don't want to do. Add to that any additional cost coming with getting painting material and space, and for more then a few people painting is not an option.

Sure, if a group of people all enjoy playing with unpainted models and never play against anyone else I guess they have the right to do that. I will never understand why they would want to, but that's their choice. But in reality it's rarely that kind of situation. The people with unpainted armies usually play against people who do care about painting, so their "everyone agreed not to paint" excuse is no longer valid

there is no difference between playing a painted or unpainted army, unless one of the players are color blind and the board is all green or all grey.

 carlos13th wrote:
The aesthetic side of the hobby is not one everyone values equally.

Just like the bathing more than once a month side of the hobby is not one everyone values equally. You still have an obligation to do it, just like you have an obligation to paint your models.

Don't attempt to make your personal preferences rules everyone should follow.

Why not? More painted armies means more potential opponents for me, and it also means that the people who want to play against painted armies but are reluctant to complain about it get better games.


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Makumba wrote:
there is no difference between playing a painted or unpainted army, unless one of the players are color blind and the board is all green or all grey.

Yes, we know you play in a bizarre WAAC environment where everyone ebays their models every month to buy the latest netlist and painting only reduces their value (I'm surprised you didn't mention this part again). Which just raises the question: if you care so little about the appearance of the armies that the only reason you can think of to have painted models is a colorblind person having trouble seeing gray models on a gray table then why play with models at all? Why don't you just use some cardboard tokens to play the game and save a ton of money?