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For me the question of value often comes from what else I could buy with the money.

After kinda dropping GW I got far more into historical's . Getting 40 Perry English Men At ARMS for the same price as five space marines gives me far more value. In the same way I can get about 18 metal samurai for a Similar cost. For me those historical models are far better value for me and not just in terms of number of models but in terms of interest in the subject matter too.

As many have pointed out for them the money is well worth it, for others its not because either they don't feel that the price is worth it for the number of models they get or because of what they could spend that money on instead. Some of you will value five space marines far more than 40 English Knights.

If there was something I really wanted from GW I would buy it from them. But at the moment they don't really have anything that WOW's me and makes me want to reach into my pocket and pay the prices they ask.

 carlos13th wrote:
For me the question of value often comes from what else I could buy with the money.

Over the past 3 years, I basically stopped buying GW, and did Kickstarters instead. When these things finally finish arriving, I will certainly have gotten good value, although there is something to the immediate gratification of receiving GW stuff vs waiting months (or years).

After disappointment with deadzone I am quite careful about what I kick start now. I tend to kickstart things I want to exist that I fear wont without the kick starter or things that offer me something much cheaper than retail or unique to the kick starter.

Yep, I still buy GW models.

Was on hiatus with my Beastmen army because it has alot of everything and I didn't have the time/inclination for building a Legion of Chaos from the End Times books, aside from what I had from previous attempts at Warriors and Daemon armies. The 9ed "what if" funk also put a damper on my purchases until...

The Khorne Daemonkin Codex hooked me from the getgo, and got me back into 40k. Currently buying bits and pieces to go with FW Khorne and militia upgrade kits atm. Bought a few boxes of Wrathmonger/Skullreapers for the conversion possibilities, some chaos daemon engines and the new Bloodthirster, as well as metal flesh hounds from E-bay.

I'll probably buy a force for each chaos god, if they release similiar products down the line.

 NoPoet wrote:
I keep getting emails from the GW about their new releases, and at first I thought there must be something wrong with my brain, as I am seeing horrifying price increases across the board. Army deals now seem to be starting at £250 and running upwards of £450, and (I can barely even conceive of this) I've just seen a standard Space Marine assault squad being advertised for pre-order at £50!

£50!

I'm guessing for this price they're hand-delivered in a golden Land Speeder and Rachael Leigh Cook gets out, kisses you passionately in front of all your friends then leads you to your bedroom for some saucy loving action, walks out of your house in a daze loudly proclaiming you as the best lover who ever lived, and the actual assault squad itself is hand-carved from jade by surviving Olmec wizards who are half-man, half-alien, and are prepared to share their secrets of telekinesis and longevity with you and only you - and Jervis Johnson pays your gas and electricity bills for the next six months?

There's no way in the world that these are just ten plastic models that have been available for the last ten or fifteen years, just given a makeover, and I assume that all new Space Marine armies henceforth will no longer include assault squads at all?

For me, personally, if I buy anything GW, it's second hand or if i have something like Amazon credit.

Their prices have gone completely into the realm of the absurd. Impulse buys that use to constitute the majority of my purchases have been gone for three or four years now. I wanted to pick up the new AdMech Magos Dominus, but at $36, could not justify it, that's more than similar Forgeworld models. In fact, FW's Magos Dominus is actually *cheaper* than GW's new plastic model, 20.50 Pounds for the FW one and 22 Pounds for the GW one. Just can't justify it any longer. Much like the Tempestus Scions replacing Kasrkin and coming out being even more expensive than FW Death Korps Grenadiers.

Ultimately, GW's revenue figures are public information, and while they've massively raised prices, far out of line with any sort of inflation, their inflation adjusted revenue is down over the last decade or more. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that they're moving *way* less product.

Who's paying FW prices for mainstream plastic kits? A lot fewer people.

 Vaktathi wrote:
....Who's paying FW prices for mainstream plastic kits? A lot fewer people.

But clearly still a huge proportion of Wargamers.

 notprop wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
....Who's paying FW prices for mainstream plastic kits? A lot fewer people.

But clearly still a huge proportion of Wargamers.

I wouldnt be so sure. The way that the prices are dropping it wont be so long till they lose almost all customers baring the devoted cultist types.
I remember back in the good old days when my local GW was packed almost every day. These days they rarely have even a quarter of that in.

A 5 men SM Assault squad for 33 Euro is an expensive deal.
Atm, I'm more into WMH buying models and units from PP.
Still, I'm buying codices and paint, but no models for my Eldar and Necrons.

I think I've actually enjoyed putting Perry miniatures together more than GW ones. I guess it's the realistic proportions and poses. The cross compatibility with other models in their range don't hurt either, although GW also has that going for them.

I really don't know the reason. It felt like a chore for me when I was building Space Marines. With Perry I'm more excited like "Ooooh you look like you can sport a beard I'M GONNA PUT GREENSTUFF BEARD ON YOU" kind of excited.

I think that modellers and gamers will come at this from completely different directions.

Modellers, I assume would purchase a few kits a year/month and put them together with the end purpose of making them look fantastic so they can be displayed affectionately. They would spend an inordinate time making the kit perfect, and eventually the models would take their place, perhaps used for play a couple of times, but otherwise complete in their reason for being purchased.

The gamers fall in a spectrum closer or farther from modellers, but universally having interest in playing the game the models were designed for. It is my opinion that the game the models are designed for has become such a horrendous mess that gamers are seeing less and less value in GW products.

Now, obviously the two terms above are just part of a spectrum that people may or may not fall into, but I think it provides a general feel for the range of customers, and tends to explain why complaints have become so abundant. A majority of people purchase GW models for the purpose of playing a game- it doesn't really matter if they play the game, what is important is that their is a solid game at the end of the road. Think of the endgame content in an MMO- it's part of people aspire and work towards. With the endgame in question for the gamers, the product loses a substantial portion of its value.

GW, in its misconstrued belief that people who purchase their miniature are doing so for a collecting purpose only, are slowly eroding away their customer base. Many of people will be happy to keep purchasing, and that's perfectly fine and more power to them. But a lot will not be happy, and I don't know what form GW will exist in when the gaming portion starts to abandon the product.

I'm definitely more a gamer than modeller/painter/collector - and I left GW 5 years ago - even then it was apparent that to collect an army for any other system was cheaper. I enjoy playing games now for multiple systems against multiple opponents, for the cost of just one army from GW

yep, I still buy GW models, what is more I go to the GW store and pay the full whack and make sure I drive there in person (its a 1 hour round trip in the car)

I know exactly how easy it is to get 20% (a club house down the road) of and I also know that the real discount GW give the resellers is actually 35%

But I buy from the GW store deliberately to support it

Because they do everything for free, free tournaments, free boards to use, free terrain, free place to sit and paint and they charge no membership and all the extra money is like a sort of "tip" because of all the stuff they do for free.

I buy boxed sets a lot: like sanctus reach, space hulk, dark vengence, and I sell the orks/chaos

By doing that I usually spend about £20 to get £100 worth of minis, miniatures THAT DO NOT DEPRECIATE IN VALUE >- important -> so the other day I bought a Landraider, a Razor back and a dreadnaught and 2 squads of long fangs to go with my santctus reach set, yes it cost about £140 but now I am painting it up and will soon own a 1500 point fully painted SW army worth about £250 (if sold in a hurry) that cost me £160 so what is the big deal?

Your choice, obviously, but I'd take issue with your assertion that minis do not depreciate in value.

NOS, boxed models can command a decent percentage of their RRP, but once they're glued together, or, worse, painted, they lose a substantial percentage.

Equally, if GW update the kit, that can have a negative impact on the value of older models (until they're old enough to be considered collectible, assuming they're considered attractive by a sufficiet number of people.)

I just picked up a boxed, NOS Land Raider from eBay for almost 50% of retail including delivery, I'd say that's a pretty compelling example of GW minis depreciating in value significantly.

notprop wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
....Who's paying FW prices for mainstream plastic kits? A lot fewer people.

But clearly still a huge proportion of Wargamers.

Oh I won't deny that. GW is still the big 400lb Gorilla in the room.

However, it's not the 800lb gorilla in a room of a few 20lb monkeys that it used to be, and now it's got a bunch of 150lb Chipanzees running around.

ConanMan wrote:yep, I still buy GW models, what is more I go to the GW store and pay the full whack and make sure I drive there in person (its a 1 hour round trip in the car)

I know exactly how easy it is to get 20% (a club house down the road) of and I also know that the real discount GW give the resellers is actually 35%

But I buy from the GW store deliberately to support it

Because they do everything for free, free tournaments, free boards to use, free terrain, free place to sit and paint and they charge no membership and all the extra money is like a sort of "tip" because of all the stuff they do for free.

I buy boxed sets a lot: like sanctus reach, space hulk, dark vengence, and I sell the orks/chaos

By doing that I usually spend about £20 to get £100 worth of minis, miniatures THAT DO NOT DEPRECIATE IN VALUE >- important -> so the other day I bought a Landraider, a Razor back and a dreadnaught and 2 squads of long fangs to go with my santctus reach set, yes it cost about £140 but now I am painting it up and will soon own a 1500 point fully painted SW army worth about £250 (if sold in a hurry) that cost me £160 so what is the big deal?

Much like Azrael13, I will dispute your assertion that your miniatures do not depreciate in value.

As soon as they're off the shelf, they're worth less. If you wanted to turn around and sell them, nobody is going to pay full retail from an individual. As soon as you open a box, they're worth a lot less. If you assemble them, they're worth even less (particularly as a player cannot pose the model themselves, build quality is hugely variable, and customizability has dropped). Only if you've built and painted them to a very high standard will they retain any value.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Your choice, obviously, but I'd take issue with your assertion that minis do not depreciate in value.

They don't depreciate the way I paint them, I could already sell my Land Raider for more than I bought it.

But I digress.

I'm still buying GW models in the USA.

ConanMan wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Your choice, obviously, but I'd take issue with your assertion that minis do not depreciate in value.

They don't depreciate the way I paint them, I could already sell my Land Raider for more than I bought it.

But I digress.

Come back goalposts! Come back!

The new assault kit puts it into perspective.

10 Tactical Marines. $50

10 Assault Marines. $100

So what are you paying another $50 for?

Seems to me jump packs used to cost $16 for five so that's, let's see $32 just for 10 jump packs. 50 plus 32 is... 83.

So for $17 more for ccws and pistols, plus the torsoes and whatever weapons you get. Minus all the optional bits from the TAC kit...

Now the real question is will ASMs be worth the extra $50 on the table or will they continue to be shelf dusters?

Of course all this only matters if you are a Ferrari driving Eugenicist with a penchant for toy racists.

ConanMan wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Your choice, obviously, but I'd take issue with your assertion that minis do not depreciate in value.

They don't depreciate the way I paint them, I could already sell my Land Raider for more than I bought it.

But I digress.

Also, if you're regularly doing it, fair enough, but if you just think you're adding value, I'd suggest you try and sell a mini for profit.

I'm generally satisfied with the standard of model I produce, I regularly get positive comments from people too, so I decided to try painting something and selling it, aaaand got exactly what they cost me, more or less.

Plus, there's a distinction between doing commissions and painting stuff in order to sell, much harder to make money at the latter, because you've got to produce something in a scheme somebody wants, not what someone has ordered.

I just bought a box of stormboyz, trukk, and Skitarii Dragoon.

Personally I was trying to be good, built up an entire Nurgle CSM army with bitz, alternate models and the occasional second hand Rhino from friends/ebay.

I regret to say I faltered after the Harlequins release and went a little spend crazy, and though I appreciate the models are well made, I do feel a little ripped off. The minimal poses in the new models is a little disappointing, not to mention the £16 characters that have no customisation options available to them... Currently have a backlog of old LotR miniatures to paint up, so will hopefully not have to buy another thing for a long LONG time

 Azreal13 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Your choice, obviously, but I'd take issue with your assertion that minis do not depreciate in value.

They don't depreciate the way I paint them, I could already sell my Land Raider for more than I bought it.

But I digress.

Also, if you're regularly doing it, fair enough, but if you just think you're adding value, I'd suggest you try and sell a mini for profit.

I'm generally satisfied with the standard of model I produce, I regularly get positive comments from people too, so I decided to try painting something and selling it, aaaand got exactly what they cost me, more or less.

Plus, there's a distinction between doing commissions and painting stuff in order to sell, much harder to make money at the latter, because you've got to produce something in a scheme somebody wants, not what someone has ordered.

i agree with you here, Az...

unpainted minis that are not limited editions, OOP, or exclusives, sell for about 50% MSRP...

selling painted models on eBay is not as lucrative as painting on commission, aside for the rare exception...
my eBay minis sell for an average of about 25% less than a commission, and that's on a good day...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Your choice, obviously, but I'd take issue with your assertion that minis do not depreciate in value.

They don't depreciate the way I paint them, I could already sell my Land Raider for more than I bought it.

But I digress.

Also, if you're regularly doing it, fair enough, but if you just think you're adding value, I'd suggest you try and sell a mini for profit.

I'm generally satisfied with the standard of model I produce, I regularly get positive comments from people too, so I decided to try painting something and selling it, aaaand got exactly what they cost me, more or less.

Plus, there's a distinction between doing commissions and painting stuff in order to sell, much harder to make money at the latter, because you've got to produce something in a scheme somebody wants, not what someone has ordered.

i agree with you here, Az...

unpainted minis that are not limited editions, OOP, or exclusives, sell for about 50% MSRP...

selling painted models on eBay is not as lucrative as painting on commission, aside for the rare exception...
my eBay minis sell for an average of about 25% less than a commission, and that's on a good day...

cheers
jah

Back when eBay was new and shiny, I could make a profit selling painted miniatures to unsuspecting victims selected clientele, and even make a living doing so.

Today, much harder.

And even back then, the real money was in the customers that came back, and ordered commissions.

the last time I turned a real profit on spec was a box of Mantic ghouls and zombies that included tombstones and etc. - my first experience with a dioramic base. Sold for a decent amount... and a week later I wished that I hadn't sold it.

The Auld Grump

Of course! I kinda have to since I'm starting out with 40k!
That said, I tend to buy from Gifts For Geeks to take advantage of discounts, and I will admit that I'm not adverse to just getting stuff off eBay. And I might be adverse to particular things, I'd rather skip out on another pricy model if I don't need it (for one thing I'm trying to cobble together a proxy for Azrael from the Company Master model in the Dark Vengeance kit and some miscellaneous bits and Green Stuff, though I have other reasons for that two).
Also, while I'll willingly buy models, codexes are a different story. So far just downloaded .pdfs online and I don't even really feel guilty from it either. The prices and setup for buying those is simply ridiculous.
My only issue would be pulling my phone out at the table to look up rules, though I was advised to get around that by claiming to have bought the digital version.

i totally agree with most of that, TheAuldGrump...

as you say, the real value of eBay for a painter is that it attracts new commission clients, especially those who are not active on forums, and would not have found me otherwise...

as for it being much harder today, that depends on the painter...
i worked hard to establish a pedigree as an industry painter, and award winner, before going to eBay, so everything i paint sells...
i'm sure that i am the exception, rather than the rule, though...
i am also very particular about what i paint for eBay, as totally random stuff isn't going to be as easy to sell, nor will it bring as high a price...

one thing of interest to this topic, is that painted GW minis, especially 40k, sell much better than any other manufacturer's minis, and make up about 95% of my commissions and sales...
as much as i would love to paint more Infinity or PP stuff, people just seem to want more 40K minis than anything else...
if i paint an Infinity mini for eBay, i have to accept that it will sell for about half of what a 40K model would bring in, which is sad, because Infinity has some incredible sculpts...

either way you slice it, selling second hand minis is not going to make anyone rich, nor is painting minis...
that's why i live in the Third World...
i live two blocks from the beach, surf all day, and paint all night...
as much as i love my hometown, i sure as hell couldn't do that in Redondo Beach!!!

cheers
jah

@jah -- Someone's going to rag on me for saying this, I'm sure, but it's my observation that the 40k "culture" includes painted models, with long-time players valuing really well-painted models (regardless of the quality of their own models).

On the other hand, for most other games, the miniatures are generally commonly seen as game pieces, with paint being optional/functional/exceptional. I'm not at all passing a judgment on or even comparing with other miniatures -- and yes, there are fantastic PP, Infinity and other models painted to an amazing level. Just generally, when I look at WMH, Malifaux, and Infinity tables, a lot of those players would be happy with X-Wing models, where they're pre-painted. It's really, really rare to see a PUG of random people at a FLGS with a WMH army painted to a "wow" level. It happens, just rarely. With 40k, it is really quite often when it comes to days/events when players are encouraged to parade their best armies (I never participate, because I hate transporting my best models, lol).

Also, just look at the "painted models" threads that pop up in the 40k forum every few weeks. I dare say, in other game systems, you have fewer players that are as passionate about requiring other players to have models painted to whatever standard they feel is minimal. Not to mention a seemingly significant population that refuses to play with anyone who doesn't paint their minis!

I still buy quite a bit of GW models and other products. I'm not concerned with the price. When one evaluates how much is wasted on things that are far less long lasting, such as food that will have come and gone by morning or fleeting moments of entertainment, the cost of miniatures that I will have in my possession and enjoy for years is pretty minor. I understand that there are many who struggle paying these prices and for them I can understand the anger over the price increase. It sucks watching richer friends build up their force while you're playing with dwarf models from the ancient past that look like garden gnomes, but even in those days I didn't have a grudge against GW,

I didn't buy any GW for over a year. Then I bought ONLY the Chaos models released during End Times. All of them: Bloodthirster, Glotkin, blightknights and skullreapers, Gutspume and Skarr, the Nurgle boxset (where BKs are from). And the two books, of course. Loved the models, wanted the fluff, and if 9th is great, I have a solid re-re-start on chaos. If it sucks, I have pretty models. And possible use in KoW.

So based on this forum....

People who still buy are 29

People who did by but now don't are 45


Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.

I'll put that no number up to 46 btw

I won't, but its a combination of absurd prices and terrible rules equally.