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 MWHistorian wrote:
Wow. Such a lack of reading comprehension. They've stated their argument that bad business practices hurt everyone, including you, and yet you continue to misunderstand on a fundamental level.

how is it a lack of reading comprehension, or misunderstanding on a fundamental level???
i conceded to Az that yes, a price rise means that i will spend a few more dollars, as that is indisputable...
i say that i think it is worth it to have an improved kit, and he says that is a whole different arguement...
that's fine, as i already conceded his point, even though he chose to overlook that fact...


now, you say that bad business practices hurt everyone, and i say that an improved kit, for a few dollars more than the last kit, is not bad business at all, but a fair trade...
so again, i ask you, where is the lack of reading comprehension, or misunderstanding on a fundamental level???
it is a disagreement, not a misunderstanding...
keep in mind, the topic is about "buying GW models", not "is GW the Great Satan"...

as to your last post, saying GW prices will bother me in the future, nobody can really say...
we don't know how far GW prices will rise in the future, or if i have a tipping point...
i'm not going to stress about something that may happen somewhere down the line, but i understand why people are angry now...
what i don't understand is why people want to insist that i should be angry...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Wow. Such a lack of reading comprehension. They've stated their argument that bad business practices hurt everyone, including you, and yet you continue to misunderstand on a fundamental level.

i conceded to Az that yes, a price rise means that i will spend a few more dollars, as that is indisputable...

That's not what the argument is about.

now, you say that bad business practices hurt everyone, and i say that an improved kit, for a few dollars more than the last kit, is not bad business at all, but a fair trade...
so again, i ask you, where is the lack of reading comprehension, or misunderstanding on a fundamental level???

The fundamental argument is that the bad business practices (including the too high prices preventing new players and pushing old ones away) hurts the remaining players and collectors. The shrinking customer base could eventually cause GW to go under and you will no longer have the minis that you love.

it is a disagreement, not a misunderstanding...
keep in mind, the topic is about "buying GW models", not "is GW the Great Satan"...

No one's saying that. But we are saying that many are bothered by GW's bad practices. Thus shrinking the customer base and possibly causing GW to go under.

as to your last post, saying GW prices will bother me in the future, nobody can really say...
we don't know how far GW prices will rise in the future, or if i have a tipping point...
i'm not going to stress about something that may happen somewhere down the line, but i understand why people are angry now...
what i don't understand is why people want to insist that i should be angry...

We're not insisting that you be angry, but that you should realize that other people's being angry can and probably will affect you.

@MWHistorian: my point is that i don't know if other people being angry at GW will have an effect on me in the future...
you can say it will, and i can only say i don't know...

like Rackham and Ilyad, if GW goes under, i will still have the minis i love, because i bought them when they were available...
if i could lower GW prices, and bring all of the lost customers back, i would...
if i could bring back Rackham and Ilyad, i would...

am i going to stop buying the minis i like, simply because Kirby and his boys are greedy bastards???
no, i'm not...
i don't want to see GW fail and their products disappear, so i do my bit by buying the products i like...

cheers
jah

I'm pretty sure everyone understands that less people playing GW games is bad for people who enjoy playing GW games... But what are we supposed to do about it? I continue buying, playing, and introducing new people to the hobby, because I enjoy it and want other people to discover and enjoy it as well. If less people do so, that's bad for me and my gaming group in the long run, but if I stopped buying GW I would only accelerate that process, which is even worse.

 JamesY wrote:
Given that most of this whole forum is about gw games and products, they obviously are. People who are happily enjoying their hobby just don't seem to make as much noise about it as those who have taken an issue with gw. I happily still buy from them.
.

The focus of the forum is still primarily GW games, but it's also important to note that the other sections of the forum have expanded substantially since I joined here.

As a chap said in a post above, the hobby landscape has definitely changed; whereas GW used to be pretty much the only 800lb gorilla in the sci-fi/fantasy room, it's now a 600lb gorilla with a bunch of 150lb chimpanzees jumping about

Dakka has definitely become a useful hub if you want to talk about a whole variety of games, and certainly it's mega useful to me as I can talk about all of them in one place. Contrast with somewhere like Warseer forum which I believe only has GW sections, and reputedly has had loss of traffic while places like Dakka and Beasts of War have grown.

Mymearan wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone understands that less people playing GW games is bad for people who enjoy playing GW games... But what are we supposed to do about it? I continue buying, playing, and introducing new people to the hobby, because I enjoy it and want other people to discover and enjoy it as well. If less people do so, that's bad for me and my gaming group in the long run, but if I stopped buying GW I would only accelerate that process, which is even worse.

The answer is simple but not one people like to hear: Stop buying their products. GW has, proudly it seems, no marketing department and very little in the way of community outreach. Hitting them in the wallet is the only way they're going to change, either under their own power, or by someone else buying their IP while it's still valuable. Gradually losing customers revenue is actually more disastrous to the future of WHFB and 40K than a sudden, shocking precipitous drop.

 Pacific wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Given that most of this whole forum is about gw games and products, they obviously are. People who are happily enjoying their hobby just don't seem to make as much noise about it as those who have taken an issue with gw. I happily still buy from them.
.

The focus of the forum is still primarily GW games, but it's also important to note that the other sections of the forum have expanded substantially since I joined here.

As a chap said in a post above, the hobby landscape has definitely changed; whereas GW used to be pretty much the only 800lb gorilla in the sci-fi/fantasy room, it's now a 600lb gorilla with a bunch of 150lb chimpanzees jumping about

Dakka has definitely become a useful hub if you want to talk about a whole variety of games, and certainly it's mega useful to me as I can talk about all of them in one place. Contrast with somewhere like Warseer forum which I believe only has GW sections, and reputedly has had loss of traffic while places like Dakka and Beasts of War have grown.

JamesY has a point, though. People who defend GW simply because they enjoy GW games tend to be less vocal than those who are unhappy.

For instance, I didn't do my usual thing and hop on and post, because I no tv with wife tonight... I have been playing 40k from 5:30pm til just now, just about 3am Finished 2 games plus pizza in 9 hours or so, won one, lost one, and I had a blast. Ironically, I won with my Blood Angels (vs Necron!! But a wonky Necron list) and lost with my Eldar, but my Eldar are now quite dated, and my Skitarii partner on Game #1 just stomped me bad. Those Skitarii are scary tough, I tell you; in a couple of weeks, he should have some of his Cult models painted, and I'll try to give him a serious match with new codex vanilla marines. At least the first game was pretty quick, so we played a bit of Titanfall while the others finished their first game of the night. I used to be so good at it; I can't believe how terrible I am now.

But anyways, I'm sure you guys don't want to hear about my actual 40k game or TF.

What some other peeps don't seem to get is that there are hobbyists/gamers that like GW and like 40k; and even if they aren't *rich*, they are less price sensitive, and would rather buy what they want than to evaluate metrics of value. Some hobbyists and gamers would rather have better models, and are willing to pay progressively higher prices for better models. Is there a tipping point, as jah-joshua put it? Who knows, obviously, at some point, but I don't know if it will be reached in my lifetime. I wouldn't pay $100 (inflation-adjusted) for one space marine to take an extreme example.

At the moment, sure, 40k is "expensive" who you evaluate it as plastic soldiers that cost pennies to make. But actually, relative to practically everything else that I spend money on for fun, and I do mean that quite literally, 40k is probably the cheapest thing that I spend a significant amount of time doing -- both per hour, and aggregate. The two sports I engage in, Ski (which I love) and golf (which I hate) are really pricey a set of golf great clubs costs more than a whole 40k army (well, ONE great golf club can cost more than a 40k army...), and green fees, what you pay to play one game, are as much as a box of models. A night at the movies with the wife, plus popcorn and 2 drinks, costs as much as a box of models. A super cheap bottle of wine is as expensive as an upgrade sprue; a good bottle of wine will buy you an Imperial Knight. A single video game with a season pass costs more than a Wraithknight. Take the wife out for a pub meal, toss in a couple of drinks, and you have enough to buy a box of Centurions. Never mind a romantic restaurant.

I'm not talking about yachts and Ferrarris, man. Just everyday things that "most" normal, employed people engage in for recreation. Relative to any of those activities, only my gaming mileage would make models worthwhile -- nevermind that I spend anywhere from 5-50 hours on modelling and hobby, and that gives me great pleasure. On top of that, you get to keep the model afterwards. I mean, how cool is that -- you play a video game, ski a hill, eat a meal, watch a movie... yeah, cool, you accumulate great memories, but that's all you get to keep. 40k, you get to amass a collection of painted toy soldiers.

Whether I buy Dreamforge, Privateer Press, Games Workshop, Mantic... the price difference *relative to anything else I'm likely to spend money on for entertainment* is a phenomenal value.

So if I like 'em, why not buy GW models? Also, I have the expectation that when a product is improved, the upgraded version costs more than the predecessor. Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For those who don't find GW games fun, don't find the products improved, and are fatigued or dislike their fluff/books, or find their products unaffordable, I would suggest you spend some time playing a game that makes you happy

On the other hand, try to put on the other shoe. Just because the hobby landscape may have changed, doesn't mean that every hobbyist has changed with it. Perhaps, there is a demographic that appreciates a different focus in a game than you. For example, even being a gamer, preferring a company that prioritizes models over games; or really liking the intricacies of the heraldry, chapter markings, and iconography of the Imperium; or appreciating the nearly-infinite possibilities for building space marines. Just because GW isn't doing what you want it to do, and just because it's making less money, doesn't necessarily mean that what they are doing appeals to nobody, nor does it mean that it appeals to so few people that they won't be able to stay in business.

And anyways, what do I care about that? I have zero control over or foresight into what happens to GW 5, 10, 15 years from now, so I choose to enjoy the game and models they put out today.

jackogk wrote:

Mymearan wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone understands that less people playing GW games is bad for people who enjoy playing GW games... But what are we supposed to do about it? I continue buying, playing, and introducing new people to the hobby, because I enjoy it and want other people to discover and enjoy it as well. If less people do so, that's bad for me and my gaming group in the long run, but if I stopped buying GW I would only accelerate that process, which is even worse.

The answer is simple but not one people like to hear: Stop buying their products. GW has, proudly it seems, no marketing department and very little in the way of community outreach. Hitting them in the wallet is the only way they're going to change, either under their own power, or by someone else buying their IP while it's still valuable. Gradually losing customers revenue is actually more disastrous to the future of WHFB and 40K than a sudden, shocking precipitous drop.

I don't want to stop buying their products, because I and my gaming group enjoy assembling, painting and playing with them. And if we didn't do that, the 40k community in our little town (which is currently very strong) would die out long before GW reversed course, if they ever did. So the answer for us is very simple as well: keep buying and playing with GW minis, and keep helping other people discovering and enjoying the hobby as well. Obviously that does not preclude us also playing other things, and we also have a strong Xwing and Necromunda community (the latter spearheaded by myself), a couple of people playing WMH (although no one else is really interested in that system), and me and a couple of other guys trying more fringe systems like Deadzone. Nothing really compares with 40k though in terms of popularity.

 Talys wrote:

relative to practically everything else that I spend money on for fun, and I do mean that quite literally, 40k is probably the cheapest thing that I spend a significant amount of time doing -- both per hour, and aggregate. .

this ^^
= most sensible thing on this thread

this is so true, also I have been playing 40k off and on for 25 years (I am the only person still going who can remember the opening of the GW store in my town, which is having it's 25 year anniversary this month) and when I started 12 terminators (metal) were £18.00 and they went up to £24.00 within a year. (btw People malingered back then, more than they do now). Compare that price of £18.00 to today when 10 terminators are £56.00. This seems a huge issue until you factor in that house prices then were average (£59,000 in 1990 compared to £188,000 now) so pounds are (on that primitive basis) worth 3.18 times less so £18.00 is £57.00 in today's money.

Or.
£56.00 (now) vs £57.00 (then)

Now you might say " ahh but they are 10 models and you are comparing them to 12" but I can tell you the quality has definitely gone up much more than the added issue of two minis I am deducting over quality. And I still have them (from 25 years ago) I can show you a picture. They are not as good.

It is a well trodden path that comparing GW to non-wargaming products is fallacious. (And I think houses is a first!)

Don't compare prices now to prices then, compare prices now to prices now. There's plenty of people producing HIPs kits that are so much cheaper for an equivalent product it should embarrass GW as the market incumbent.

There's no point in arguing value, as that's subjective, neither is there any point in comparing "quality" as that's a moving target (realistically 'quality' should only refer to the % of kits that have no defects, but I suspect you're using it to describe the detail on the minis - something that's again subjective, many people find the amount of greeble on GW's minis excessive - or the amount of pieces, and , again, one man's options is another man's unnecessary junk.)

The inescapable reality is GW have to charge a significant amount for their minis because they have a massive overhead which is nothing to do with the design or production of minis to cover. Due to continued mismanagement they seem to have reached a stage where they're producing product that fewer people want to buy, at a price fewer people are willing to pay, but thanks to the flawed decision from some years back to try and control their product beyond what most companies would consider sensible, they're in a position which is near impossible to reverse.

The fact is HIPs production has fallen in price, more so for GW than anyone else in the industry because they own their own kit and don't have to contract production out, compared to other companies which do. Set this against a background of negative inflation and a 6 year low for the price of crude (and consequently all petrochemical derivative, such as plastic) and yet prices still go up?

Say what you like about where the prices are, they're substantially above where they could, even should, be.

ConanMan wrote:

 Talys wrote:

relative to practically everything else that I spend money on for fun, and I do mean that quite literally, 40k is probably the cheapest thing that I spend a significant amount of time doing -- both per hour, and aggregate. .

this ^^
= most sensible thing on this thread

this is so true, also I have been playing 40k off and on for 25 years (I am the only person still going who can remember the opening of the GW store in my town, which is having it's 25 year anniversary this month) and when I started 12 terminators (metal) were £18.00 and they went up to £24.00 within a year. (btw People malingered back then, more than they do now). Compare that price of £18.00 to today when 10 terminators are £56.00. This seems a huge issue until you factor in that house prices then were average (£59,000 in 1990 compared to £188,000 now) so pounds are (on that primitive basis) worth 3.18 times less so £18.00 is £57.00 in today's money.

Or.
£56.00 (now) vs £57.00 (then)

Now you might say " ahh but they are 10 models and you are comparing them to 12" but I can tell you the quality has definitely gone up much more than the added issue of two minis I am deducting over quality. And I still have them (from 25 years ago) I can show you a picture. They are not as good.

This kind of perspective gets overlooked too often. Comparative value of currency does explain a lot of it.

Of course, wages have not increased in a similar fashion, at least not here in the states. Someone making $80,000 a year now is making a lot less compared to 1990s dollars. The people with expensive houses work a lot harder to keep them.

I do wonder if it makes sense for GW to set prices relative to the value of currency or the value of people's real wages. I am sure shareholder perspectives matter here, but it would seem to me it's important to remain affordable for a larger number of people.

That said, I don't buy models from GW anymore, and have seen a lot of situations where people can't play the game b/c they don't have the cash. It's very different now than it was then.

I am not refusing to buy GW models on moral grounds or anything, I've pickedup a few lotr models recently for d&d purposes but no, I don't buy GW any more. Why? Because I'm one of these people:

 Talys wrote:
and are willing to pay progressively higher prices for better models

I'm happy to pay high prices for excellent models, but walking into a GW store and looking through the range these days it just can't excite me any more. The new releases seem to just fall into one of several categories for me. The large, two frame plastic models just look like toys, the crap like the wrathmongers are just poorly thought out concepts to begin with and the decent stuff like the new mechanium character is not bad, but nothing special and I am not paying what they are asking for it. The fluff was great, but things keep changing, diluting the setting and dumbing it down in my opinion, killing my enthusiasm.
The worst of it though was the space wolf codex. I was building a small force at the time, then saw MURDERFANG, Santa Claus sled and yet another silly looking marine flier that seemed to fill no role that the thunderhawk had always filled. I packed my space wolves away during that release and can't even tell you where they are now.

So yes, I am perfectly happy to pay a premium for good models, but GW aren't making good models imo so I don't buy from them.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The large, two frame plastic models just look like toys

They're not helping this with certain releases with bits like this on models.



Pop out missiles!

 Grimtuff wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
The large, two frame plastic models just look like toys

They're not helping this with certain releases with bits like this on models.

Spoiler:

Pop out missiles!

Personally I think this is equally as bad.



The rocket seems far too 'totally cool action toys!' compared to say... the missile launcher from this set.



I like that post so much better for a model, it's not static, but it doesn't feel like they are trying to shoehorn it into an action scene for the 12 year old audience.

I feel that its good to be aware of what GW is doing to the hobby, and I'm no apologist. Far from it, I'm a pretty typical GW burn out.

That said, there's a faint whiff of pointless awareness raising here. Sure, it's good to realize that GW's policies hurt others, and might affect you. so what?

We can call for boycotts all we want, but we've seen what' GW's response has been to dwindling sales: doubling down on their worst tendencies. Not only do I doubt the pwoer of a boycott to correct the problem, but I think it might exacerbate it.

In other words, buy what you want. I don't buy from GW, but I rarely did, even in my 40k prime. If somebody else wants to, good on them.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I am not refusing to buy GW models on moral grounds or anything, I've pickedup a few lotr models recently for d&d purposes but no, I don't buy GW any more. Why? Because I'm one of these people:

 Talys wrote:
and are willing to pay progressively higher prices for better models

I'm happy to pay high prices for excellent models, but walking into a GW store and looking through the range these days it just can't excite me any more. The new releases seem to just fall into one of several categories for me. The large, two frame plastic models just look like toys, the crap like the wrathmongers are just poorly thought out concepts to begin with and the decent stuff like the new mechanium character is not bad, but nothing special and I am not paying what they are asking for it. The fluff was great, but things keep changing, diluting the setting and dumbing it down in my opinion, killing my enthusiasm.
The worst of it though was the space wolf codex. I was building a small force at the time, then saw MURDERFANG, Santa Claus sled and yet another silly looking marine flier that seemed to fill no role that the thunderhawk had always filled. I packed my space wolves away during that release and can't even tell you where they are now.

So yes, I am perfectly happy to pay a premium for good models, but GW aren't making good models imo so I don't buy from them.

The Admech stuff, and especially the Skitarii, are some of the best models they've ever made imo. Nothing toy-like about them. Personally the only companies I see putting out a large variety of stuff at the same consistent level of quality as GW/FW are Mierce and Prodos (Warzone). Infinity and Kingdom Death stuff is also technically very nice but I dislike their aesthetic.

Except for the obvious toy-like door mechanism on the dunecrawler as seen in Grimtuff's post. And the robots literally look like toys, just missing the spring-loaded missile fist.

I especially hate the sun shark, to me it's one of the worst models that GW has ever produced and also serves as a shining example of how GW just doesn't get it. Damn near every single Tau player wanted plastic barracudas, and I personally would have bought a trio of them at release without really thinking about it. Hell, a lot of us probably expected it after the valkyrie's successful transition into plastic and the flyer wave that followed shortly after. And we got...that. I'd be very surprised if GW made enough money off that kit just to pay for the moulds, let alone made a profit on it, as its undesirable in just about every way. Ugly model, awful rules, and if I'm not mistaken in the case with the sun shark and it's regenerating bombs the rules literally don't work as written.

I agree the Tau vehicle looks pretty bad but I love the Onager, and I don't agree that a simple hinged hatch makes it look like a toy.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Except for the obvious toy-like door mechanism on the dunecrawler as seen in Grimtuff's post. And the robots literally look like toys, just missing the spring-loaded missile fist.

Ooooh... Shogun Warriors! (Anyone else remember those toys?)

The Auld Grump

 Sidstyler wrote:
Except for the obvious toy-like door mechanism on the dunecrawler as seen in Grimtuff's post. And the robots literally look like toys, just missing the spring-loaded missile fist.

Yeah, as well as the retro robots that look literally like toys as well. Plus the Rangers are nearly mono-pose torsos with attachable body parts, as opposed to highly-articulated kits like Space a marines or Dark Eldar. There are a couple of things that I really like about the AM release (big servitude, Magos guy, look of the Rangers themselves "), but I would rank the quality of that release substantially below many others. IMO, the re-release of Dark Eldar a few years back was the best release GW has ever had. And it didn't take two codexes to do it either!

 carlos13th wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
So based on this forum....

People who still buy are 29

People who did by but now don't are 45


Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.

I'll put that no number up to 46 btw

I am a few years younger than either of those but I am in the did buy but don't any more category.

I think I was misunderstood.....I was actually counting the people that said yes I still but vs no I don't buy. Not age.
Looking back..I see the confusion. 29 people in this thread said yes I'll still buy from gw. 46 have said no..I wont anymore.

If this is represetational of the community as a whole..then GW needs to change thier businees practices.

 rayphoton wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
So based on this forum....

People who still buy are 29

People who did by but now don't are 45


Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.

I'll put that no number up to 46 btw

I am a few years younger than either of those but I am in the did buy but don't any more category.

I think I was misunderstood.....I was actually counting the people that said yes I still but vs no I don't buy. Not age.
Looking back..I see the confusion. 29 people in this thread said yes I'll still buy from gw. 46 have said no..I wont anymore.

If this is represetational of the community as a whole..then GW needs to change thier businees practices.

Ah...that makes much more sense.
I wonder how indicative this is of the consumer base as a whole.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
So based on this forum....

People who still buy are 29

People who did by but now don't are 45


Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.

I'll put that no number up to 46 btw

I am a few years younger than either of those but I am in the did buy but don't any more category.

I think I was misunderstood.....I was actually counting the people that said yes I still but vs no I don't buy. Not age.
Looking back..I see the confusion. 29 people in this thread said yes I'll still buy from gw. 46 have said no..I wont anymore.

If this is represetational of the community as a whole..then GW needs to change thier businees practices.

Ah...that makes much more sense.
I wonder how indicative this is of the consumer base as a whole.

Not at all, because that would require a random sample of all GWs consumer base, not a few self-selected individuals who frequent a forum dedicated to gaming.

Ha! I knew there'd be a comment of this sort as soon as I read MWH's comment.

No doubt if a study conducted with a truly random sample was carried out, with similar results, some would dismiss it as a fluke and that in "reality" people were still buying just like they always did.

Something like "for the true believer no proof is good enough" I guess.

I bought some GW the other day for the first time in a few years. I got the trukk with 10 ork boys for £26 from Dark Sphere and got some Kromlech bare chests and punk heads for the orks. Bid just seen Mad Max and wanted to make a Gorkamorka gang with modern figures.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Ha! I knew there'd be a comment of this sort as soon as I read MWH's comment.

No doubt if a study conducted with a truly random sample was carried out, with similar results, some would dismiss it as a fluke and that in "reality" people were still buying just like they always did.

Something like "for the true believer no proof is good enough" I guess.

I certainly wouldn't. I work as a statistician and thus am prone to comment on these things... I am personally a "true believer" in cold, hard evidence.

 Azreal13 wrote:
It is a well trodden path that comparing GW to non-wargaming products is fallacious. (And I think houses is a first!)

Don't compare prices now to prices then, compare prices now to prices .

House prices (and gold prices) are the best way to do valuations of currency ... some very rich people I know only use it... from a certain perspective you might say "the average house price" never alters in value (and neither does gold, but recently gold has become a cash shelter so has been over valued a lot) ... houses do not change..instead currency devalues.

Inflation index calulations done on theortical shopping lists other than this are an artifact to an economists political end.

But what do I know

I doubt inflation is going to account for things like the Dire Avengers box being cut in hal and sold at the same price (not a single incident either, mind you).

Of course, a separate issue is how many of the models you need to play a normal-sized game. Points dilution has been a near constant to the point where a 1500pt army in 3rd edition runs about half the size of a 1500pt army in 7th, and I would argue that the experience has not been improved by shoving more into the game.

I've always been curious about points inflation complaints (not saying you are complaining, but many are). Why not play games with the same model count as you did in, say, 3rd ed, regardless of how many points they are now? Why keep playing 1850 games instead of going down to 1500, 1250 or whatever? I just can't see why it is a problem unless you play in tournaments a lot.

I think the game has become out-of-whack to work optimally at the levels that a 3rd edition 1500pt army (say 850 or so) would work at. Things like unit restrictions (i.e. the old "0-1" or even the single CAD) are now a thing of the past. Now, obviously you can put restrictions on things, but I feel this generally devolves into disagreements about what should and should not be allowed...it really seems easier to get people to agree to play an older edition.

It really returns to the difficulty of playing in a PUG environment. Beyond that, I don't know what the benefits or points dilution are. Is the enjoyment of the game increased by purchasing and using all of these extra units for large-size skirmish game? (Genuine question, not being rhetorical)