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 rayphoton wrote:
So based on this forum....

People who still buy are 29

People who did by but now don't are 45


Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.

I'll put that no number up to 46 btw

I am a few years younger than either of those but I am in the did buy but don't any more category.

I'm going to make a generalization: it seems many of the folks who buy GW do so to the exclusion of other choices. Why is that? GW models are available second hand for much cheaper.

Not me!

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Vets also don't need to buy that many, if any, models.

I have plenty of IG. Why do I need to buy more?

Not everybody has over 10k points of IG, with all Codex and Apocalypse entries covered.

Even then, maybe you want Allies. Like Knights. Or Ad Mech.

I was fine with my IG until Apoc, and then I picked up a Superheavy. I was similarly satisfied with my Eldar until the recent Codex; now I own a Wraithknight.

Plus, vets used to be the folks that collected multiple armies - and when somebody wanted to try, oh, let's say Orks, the Vet would have a force of Snakebites, Bad Moons, Goffs, or Evil Suns that the newb could try - which would often led to a new player and collector being born.

Now my extra armies are for different games - but I still buy models for those games.

Every single model that I buy for another game is a sale lost to GW.

And I no longer have spare armies to loan to new players for GW games, but I have brought people into Kings of War and Deadzone - which are more sales that are lost to GW. (GW lost a group of about twenty players from my local area in one swell foop with WHFB 8th edition - and it looks like few if any will be coming back with 9th edition.)

A company that depends on word of mouth for its advertising really cannot afford to alienate the long time fans of their products.

The Auld Grump, or does that tread too close to market research?

Back in the old days, GW armies were narrower and smaller, so you'd play a different army for variety's sake. Now, armies are vast, so it's better to concentrate on just a few.

I completely agree that hobby spend is zero sum, but why buy into open-ended systems? I think I'm doing far better buy focusing on miniatures board games that don't require painting, and don't require additional purchases outside the box. And those miniatures games that could grow? Best practice to convert them into 2- or 4-player board games.

WFB 8E got me to stop playing and mothball my stuff, but I might come back for 9th. We'll see.

Given that most of this whole forum is about gw games and products, they obviously are. People who are happily enjoying their hobby just don't seem to make as much noise about it as those who have taken an issue with gw. I happily still buy from them.

One note on prices, 2nd ed 40k, £40 dark millenium was £25. You got twenty Marines, twenty gretchin and twenty Orcs if memory serves correctly) and a cardboard ork dreadnought. Two very dull armies. £65 total to get into the hobby.

7th ed, all the rules that you needed core+dm to get in 2nd, and two phenomenal starter armies. £65 total to get into the hobby. Yes some things are more expensive, but not everything.

 JamesY wrote:
Given that most of this whole forum is about gw games and products, they obviously are.

You...you see all the other boards which are nothing to do with GW whatsoever right? Like, dozens of them?

Or is there some "fingers in the ears" mode Lego introduced for the True Believers?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Given that most of this whole forum is about gw games and products, they obviously are.

You...you see all the other boards which are nothing to do with GW whatsoever right? Like, dozens of them?

Or is there some "fingers in the ears" mode Lego introduced for the True Believers?

Yes I do, as I play quite a few games that aren't gw. But I can also see where most of the traffic is. My enjoying gw products doesn't blind me thanks.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Given that most of this whole forum is about gw games and products, they obviously are.

You...you see all the other boards which are nothing to do with GW whatsoever right? Like, dozens of them?

Or is there some "fingers in the ears" mode Lego introduced for the True Believers?

But they still take up a great deal of the available real estate on this site.

I am more concerned with the folks that know that GW is misbehavin', and mismanaged into the bargain - but don't seem to care.

I like Forge World stuff - there are some gorgeous models, and that portion of the GW empire does not seem to hold their fan base in contempt... but I will not buy from them, because to do so would to still be supporting GW.

Likewise, I don't buy from Black Library.

I do not call it a boycott - I just call it not buying from GW.

The Auld Grump

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yes there is - don't buy their products.

The wargaming hobby isn't like some massive business like consumer electronics or FMCG, it's much more of a community, but that's irrelevant, the point I was making is taking the attitude of I don't care about things that don't affect me when those things could very much affect you in the bigger picture sense is daft, because if you're the only one left enjoying things, you've got a bit of a problem.

It isn't a question of consumer morality, it's a question of short sightedness.

If the problem is that you're enjoying a product, what's the product?

Look, I get your point. I stopped playing 40k because I don't like the rules, and I don't buy the models because I have better options. So I see that gamers are affected by GW. but.... If someone enjoys the game and the models, it's the height of arrogance to say t hey shouldn't buy what they like.

It might be short sighted (although I don't think it is, given how impenetrable GW has been to falling sales thus far), but even conceding your point, why not be short sighted? Gaming "careers" end suddenly all the time. A job change, an FLGS closes, having a kid, whatever. I'm not going to ask anybody to set aside enjoying their hobby now for the good of a community they may not be in a year from now.

Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.

By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.

It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.

We all have our hobby that is personal to ourselves. Nobody owes anybody anything other than the respect to allow them to pursue their own hobby as they see fit, and to do the same ourself. If you don't want gw's products, fine, if you do want them, that's fine too. For me, when I came back into the hobby after a thirteen year break, the variety on the market compared to when I left was incredible. There are miniatures for all tastes, which is how it should be. Who individuals chose to spend their hard earned cash on is up to them. There is no single gaming community that is owed allegiance, and the idea that a company should be avoided for it's benefit is frankly ridiculous.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.

By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.

It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.

ok, explain to me exactly how a high price effects me if i am not feeling effected by it, because i am not seeing your reasoning...
keep in mind, i am not talking about profit margins, perceived value, game rules, or bad behavior by incompetent management...
i am simply a guy who buys models, whose price increases every year, but continues to buy the ones i like...
so, how does the price rise effect me???
i am genuinely curious...

cheers
jah

 Azreal13 wrote:
Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.

By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.

It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.

What are you actually proposing here? That people who don't have a problem with the products, and want to buy them, shouldn't, so that the company changes to make those that do have a problem happy? I think you are the only one not seeing past your own nose here mate.

 jah-joshua wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.

By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.

It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.

ok, explain to me exactly how a high price effects me if i am not feeling effected by it, because i am not seeing your reasoning...
keep in mind, i am not talking about profit margins, perceived value, game rules, or bad behavior by incompetent management...
i am simply a guy who buys models, whose price increases every year, but continues to buy the ones i like...
so, how does the price rise effect me???
i am genuinely curious...

cheers
jah

Well, it's simple, and the fact you're asking me to explain it is a little concerning tbh.

Unless you have literally infinite money, if you're spending more on something, you have less to spend on something else.

That you're ok with this doesn't make it any less true.

You really needed that explained?

I dont play the game but i do buy GW models. I love the background and quality, iv never had any flash yet and the models are always crisp in detail.

 JamesY wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.

By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.

It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.

What are you actually proposing here? That people who don't have a problem with the products, and want to buy them, shouldn't, so that the company changes to make those that do have a problem happy? I think you are the only one not seeing past your own nose here mate.

Hey, nice strawman!

Not what I was saying at all. I mean, it isn't like I said this..

By all means go about your business and do the things you love

In the very post you quoted.

I'm saying don't claim things don't affect you when the reality is they do affect you but you're ok with it.

He means the price rises affect everyone. Many of us have seen the number of players decrease (less players, less money to GW and so on means that this effects you as GW may struggle to continue and or you are left with less players).

Also you cannot say paying more for less doesn't affect you, even if you are looking past that. When dire avengers got their box halved and the price increased, even if you still buy that box you have suffered.

Those are just a few examples of how constant price rises and boxes being reduced can slowly (or quickly) change your experience in playing GW games. Especially since playing wargames is a community hobby.

I think you are being ridiculous to be honest. You are talking as if people enjoying and pursuing the hobby is somehow detrimental to it's future. It's always been a pricey hobby. Was 26 yrs ago when I got into it, still is. Never struggled to get a game of 40k or fantasy though. Prices go up. Polos used to be 10p a tube. Now they are more. Who cares?

My point was, and remains, discounting a problem that has wider reaching implications because it doesn't affect you is myopic and self defeating.

But then, as you're clearly the sort of person I was referring to, there's absolutely no point in continuing the discussion, as you're likely incapable of appreciating where I'm coming from.

 JamesY wrote:
I think you are being ridiculous to be honest. You are talking as if people enjoying and pursuing the hobby is somehow detrimental to it's future. It's always been a pricey hobby. Was 26 yrs ago when I got into it, still is. Never struggled to get a game of 40k or fantasy though. Prices go up. Polos used to be 10p a tube. Now they are more. Who cares?

I'm convinced you're not actually reading the posts.

Read them again.

The point is that rising prices affect many more people than just yourself, and that every person who stops buying and/or playing shrinks 40k. Given enough time and price rises, you'll soon find yourself without any opponents. Hence the statement that price rises affect you, just not immediately.

In other words, you should care that other people are leaving because of the prices. Eventually the prices may reach the point where even you stop and think before hitting 'Add to Cart'.

Finally, the hobby has never been pricey. GW is not a hobby, and wargaming has never been particularly expensive in the grand scheme of things.

 Azreal13 wrote:
My point was, and remains, discounting a problem that has wider reaching implications because it doesn't affect you is myopic and self defeating.

But then, as you're clearly the sort of person I was referring to, there's absolutely no point in continuing the discussion, as you're likely incapable of appreciating where I'm coming from.

Play nice, now.

The Auld Grump <== the person that calls such folks suckers....

 Azreal13 wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.

By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.

It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.

ok, explain to me exactly how a high price effects me if i am not feeling effected by it, because i am not seeing your reasoning...
keep in mind, i am not talking about profit margins, perceived value, game rules, or bad behavior by incompetent management...
i am simply a guy who buys models, whose price increases every year, but continues to buy the ones i like...
so, how does the price rise effect me???
i am genuinely curious...

cheers
jah

Well, it's simple, and the fact you're asking me to explain it is a little concerning tbh.

Unless you have literally infinite money, if you're spending more on something, you have less to spend on something else.

That you're ok with this doesn't make it any less true.

You really needed that explained?

i had a feeling that would be your argument...
my question, is why is that a problem???

would i be uspset if GW's prices were lower???
of course not...
am i upset that the price of damn near everything in the world goes up year by year???
not really...

you are arguing a point that doesn't really matter, and which i would say is purely a question of semantics...
since you can't seem to accept "i don't feel effected by it", would you be happier if i change my wording to "i am not bothered by it"???
would you feel like you won, and stop beating the same drum over and over???
well, there you go, you win, and i will go cry in my paint and say, "woe is me, the world is such a cruel place, with GW making me spend an extra $2.50 for 5 Assault Marines that look way more awesome, and come with way more options than the previous set"...
this is why i say i don't feel effected by a price increase...
i am getting what i perceive to be a better product, for only a few dollars more than the previous set...
it seems like a fair trade...

cheers
jah

But that's a totally different argument.

I am unaffected by something =\= I am ok with how this affects me.

Plus, as I said, there are wider implications to changes which may illicit negative reactions from others even if they don't with you.

I mean, one assumes you charge more for a commission if the base cost of the kit goes up? What does that mean when the base cost of the kit creeps up sufficiently that people are less frequently willing to pay you to paint them? Unlikely to happen as the result of one incremental increase, but given enough incremental increases over a long enough time...

Wow. Such a lack of reading comprehension. They've stated their argument that bad business practices hurt everyone, including you, and yet you continue to misunderstand on a fundamental level.

 jah-joshua wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.

By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.

It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.

ok, explain to me exactly how a high price effects me if i am not feeling effected by it, because i am not seeing your reasoning...
keep in mind, i am not talking about profit margins, perceived value, game rules, or bad behavior by incompetent management...
i am simply a guy who buys models, whose price increases every year, but continues to buy the ones i like...
so, how does the price rise effect me???
i am genuinely curious...

cheers
jah

Well, it's simple, and the fact you're asking me to explain it is a little concerning tbh.

Unless you have literally infinite money, if you're spending more on something, you have less to spend on something else.

That you're ok with this doesn't make it any less true.

You really needed that explained?

i had a feeling that would be your argument...
my question, is why is that a problem???

would i be uspset if GW's prices were lower???
of course not...
am i upset that the price of damn near everything in the world goes up year by year???
not really...

you are arguing a point that doesn't really matter, and which i would say is purely a question of semantics...
since you can't seem to accept "i don't feel effected by it", would you be happier if i change my wording to "i am not bothered by it"???
would you feel like you won, and stop beating the same drum over and over???
well, there you go, you win, and i will go cry in my paint and say, "woe is me, the world is such a cruel place, with GW making me spend an extra $2.50 for 5 Assault Marines that look way more awesome, and come with way more options than the previous set"...
this is why i say i don't feel effected by a price increase...
i am getting what i perceive to be a better product, for only a few dollars more than the previous set...
it seems like a fair trade...

cheers
jah

and we have the first exalt of this glorious saturday morning

I tend to spend my time exalting Azrael since his comments are generally well thought-out and focused on the big picture.

 Accolade wrote:
I tend to spend my time exalting Azrael since his comments are generally well thought-out and focused on the big picture.

I've exalted him a few times just on this page alone.

 NoPoet wrote:
I keep getting emails from the GW about their new releases, and at first I thought there must be something wrong with my brain, as I am seeing horrifying price increases across the board. Army deals now seem to be starting at £250 and running upwards of £450, and (I can barely even conceive of this) I've just seen a standard Space Marine assault squad being advertised for pre-order at £50!

£50!

I'm guessing for this price they're hand-delivered in a golden Land Speeder and Rachael Leigh Cook gets out, kisses you passionately in front of all your friends then leads you to your bedroom for some saucy loving action, walks out of your house in a daze loudly proclaiming you as the best lover who ever lived, and the actual assault squad itself is hand-carved from jade by surviving Olmec wizards who are half-man, half-alien, and are prepared to share their secrets of telekinesis and longevity with you and only you - and Jervis Johnson pays your gas and electricity bills for the next six months?

There's no way in the world that these are just ten plastic models that have been available for the last ten or fifteen years, just given a makeover, and I assume that all new Space Marine armies henceforth will no longer include assault squads at all?

With GW?


It pays not to make statements such as this...

If your asking, you are already beaten.

 Azreal13 wrote:
But that's a totally different argument.

I am unaffected by something =\= I am ok with how this affects me.

Plus, as I said, there are wider implications to changes which may illicit negative reactions from others even if they don't with you.

I mean, one assumes you charge more for a commission if the base cost of the kit goes up? What does that mean when the base cost of the kit creeps up sufficiently that people are less frequently willing to pay you to paint them? Unlikely to happen as the result of one incremental increase, but given enough incremental increases over a long enough time...

i conceded to you that i would stop saying "this does not effect me", and instead say, "i am not bothered"...
i accept that others may be bothered, and never argued otherwise...
the topic is "Is anyone still buying GW models?", and my answer is yes...
i haven't told anybody that they are wrong to be put-off by the prices...

my commission rates do not take the price of a kit into consideration...
if i own the kit, i will not charge the client for it...
if i don't own the kit, the customer has to buy it, and i will get them the best price possible on it...
i don't charge for prep and assembly either, as i don't want to have a client decide that saving a few bucks is worth the sight of moldlines...
i would rather make the client happy with a free model and prep, get to do top-quality work, and earn client loyalty...

in 12 years as a professional painter, business has remained constant...
there have been price increases, by many manufacturers, throughout the last decade, the only difference is that GW is the most blatant about it, with the highest rate of increases...
like i said, i get why that may put others off...
my point is, it doesn't put me off, and doesn't lead to less work for me...
will it in the future???
i don't know...

i can sympathize with the unhappy people, without joining in the protests and boycotts...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

my point is, it doesn't put me off, and doesn't lead to less work for me...
will it in the future???
i don't know...

That is the entire point of their argument.
That it will affect you, even if it doesn't bother you at the moment.