Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Accolade wrote:

Mymearan wrote:
GW don't price based on production cost, if they did then three-sprue troops wouldn't be cheaper than two-sprue elites.

And you wouldn't have things like the minuscule Dark Elf Witch Elves costing $60 per ten miniatures!

They really just ought to price things at production cost like almost everyone else does.

Their biggest competitors don't seem to be doing that. Mantic might, but certainly not PP/CB. So basically, the ones who can get away with it

 Azreal13 wrote:


The new assault squad is £25 as opposed to £20.50.

That's as near as dammit a 20% price rise

I stand corrected Azrael, missed that. Was comparing the price to the tacticals, but just noticed the new tactical squad has crept up to €35 too...not happy.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:


The new assault squad is £25 as opposed to £20.50.

That's as near as dammit a 20% price rise

I stand corrected Azrael, missed that. Was comparing the price to the tacticals, but just noticed the new tactical squad has crept up to €35 too...not happy.

in my opinion, the newer Tac., Dev., and Assault squads have better sculpting and better weapon options, making the price rise over the cost of the previous kits seem justified to me...
if we are just looking at the new Assault squad, the greater variety of weapons, crisper sculpting, and the scenic base bits, definitely make this new kit better...
same goes for the other two kits, where the new weapons, and better sculpting, win over saving a few bucks by buying the older versions of the kits...
for people who don't care about those options, i am sure that there are plenty of the old kits still kicking around, at a hefty discount, online...

personally, i am quite happy to see my favorite minis get updated with better quality kits, even if they cost me a few dollars more...

cheers
jah

Yup, still buying. New kits are incredible too.

So I play Black Templar (among other things).

Space Marine codex comes out, I buy the normal hard copy because you-know I want to play according to the rules however they may be.

I bought one of the assault kits.
I bought one more of the sternguard kits
I bought two of the dev. kits.

I tend to make each of my models unique where possible.
Just one of each of these is enough to modify a company worth of marines in my humble opinion.
I now also have a fair bit of grav. weapons to try out.

I will have to look closer, I think Jah had said that some undercuts were dealt with better than old models and I am enough of a 40k historian to be able to dig some 3rd edition plastics out.
I never thought I would have nostalgia for the "bell bottom" legged dev's from way back in the days of metal: they had that castle-top / gear pattern along the upper trim of the leg too.

I have "enough" marines where I only need to get one of a new kit and call it a day.
I buy and anyone else would buy a GW model if it pretty enough or have enough options contained within it to "justify" the high cost GW asks for.

One less bottle of scotch for me for a month or two.

<edit> The trick is the costs are making us more "discerning" as their product compete with our other disposable income so it better have good bang for the buck or we will give it a pass.

 Talys wrote:


I think basic space marine bikes are really pricey too. The sprues really aren't that nice, and you only get 3 bikes, plus they don't have the most popular weapon option (grav guns).

Plus, they look fething awful!

And that's from a massive fan of anything on two wheels.

I remember in the days they were £4 each or so, which I guess wasn't too bad. How much are they now? The problem is that you make the price higher, and you end up with them being compared to other bikes like this...



Tell me why, HIPS sprue (which must surely have been produced tens of thousands of times now) costs so much when compared to a metal-cast miniature which is produced by a relatively tiny Spanish company.

Ten years ago, I would say that there was very little that could match GW for miniature sculpt quality. Perhaps Rackham. Now you have CB, Knight miniatures, Mierce, Dark Age, you could list many other top quality producers. In this kind of competitive environment you have to price competitively as well, the fact GW aren't is probably a big reason why they aren't growing in a rapidly growing industry.

Well, military stuff tends to look on the rugged side.
The US Marines use this guy:

Just need to up-design it to be able to carry a space marine.
(According to the Deathwatch core rulebook (page 28), while wearing power armour a Marine weighs between 500-1,000 kilograms, or 1,100-2,200 pounds.)
So a "proper" motorcycle to compare is the "V-type Gunbus 410":

Maximum engine torque: 710 Nm at 1900 RPM
Total weight, empty/curb weight: 650 kg which still seems more like a child's toy (<edit>1433 lbs!).
All that is left is the world's biggest bike: made by Harzer Bike Schmiede

It is powered by an old tank engine.
4.749 tonnes (10,470 lb), that seems a bit better in comparison (<edit> Note: it would compare better if the not shown here side-car was removed... un-drivable by normal people however if done).
5.28 m (17 ft 4 in) Long, 2.29 m ( 7ft 6 in) tall which again the ratio seems about right.

Point being: The bikes look awful? Look how big they need to get to carry those heavy guys.
No spokes or hubless wheels for them!

Let us just say my sense of immersion is not shocked by the present designs.
Plus it was fun looking this stuff up... what COULD a marine ride now, never mind super future high tech materials... yeah!

That there is an Ork warbike, probably the Warboss's personal ride..

I approve

 Ascalam wrote:
That there is an Ork warbike, probably the Warboss's personal ride..

I approve

Tractor engine on two wheels? FETH YES.

Personally hate the square bike wheels. always looked silly.

 Talizvar wrote:
Well, military stuff tends to look on the rugged side.
The US Marines use this guy:

Just need to up-design it to be able to carry a space marine.
(According to the Deathwatch core rulebook (page 28), while wearing power armour a Marine weighs between 500-1,000 kilograms, or 1,100-2,200 pounds.)
So a "proper" motorcycle to compare is the "V-type Gunbus 410":

Maximum engine torque: 710 Nm at 1900 RPM
Total weight, empty/curb weight: 650 kg which still seems more like a child's toy (<edit>1433 lbs!).
All that is left is the world's biggest bike: made by Harzer Bike Schmiede

It is powered by an old tank engine.
4.749 tonnes (10,470 lb), that seems a bit better in comparison (<edit> Note: it would compare better if the not shown here side-car was removed... un-drivable by normal people however if done).
5.28 m (17 ft 4 in) Long, 2.29 m ( 7ft 6 in) tall which again the ratio seems about right.

Point being: The bikes look awful? Look how big they need to get to carry those heavy guys.
No spokes or hubless wheels for them!

Let us just say my sense of immersion is not shocked by the present designs.
Plus it was fun looking this stuff up... what COULD a marine ride now, never mind super future high tech materials... yeah!

the fact the useless power armour weights 2000 pounds is slowed to begin with

I thought sm bikes were amazing when they came out in 97, but they look horrendously dated now. Those forge world outriders are where it's at for me now. I'm not even running bikes in my wolves and I still want a set.

The 2000 AD Lawmaster that every SM rides *is* horribly dated. It's a mid-1970s design from Judge Dredd that has been conceptually silly since the 1990s.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The 2000 AD Lawmaster that every SM rides *is* horribly dated. It's a mid-1970s design from Judge Dredd that has been conceptually silly since the 1990s.

Yep its a Lawmaster, hands down. I did quite like painting a pair of them when I was 16 though, in fact I was all over the light vehicles. The eldar jetbike and the gorkamorka vehicles kept me interested in the hobby for a few years.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The 2000 AD Lawmaster that every SM rides *is* horribly dated. It's a mid-1970s design from Judge Dredd that has been conceptually silly since the 1990s.

What has a comic reference to do with this, the other Hips kits have been updated but the bikes not yet, Shouldn't there be Attack bikes now with grav cannons?

And off to the Iso cube for dissing Judge Dredd!

Mymearan wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

Mymearan wrote:
GW don't price based on production cost, if they did then three-sprue troops wouldn't be cheaper than two-sprue elites.

And you wouldn't have things like the minuscule Dark Elf Witch Elves costing $60 per ten miniatures!

They really just ought to price things at production cost like almost everyone else does.

Their biggest competitors don't seem to be doing that. Mantic might, but certainly not PP/CB. So basically, the ones who can get away with it

Ummmm...... That is the only way CB sets the cost for their models. Cost to produce.

Last GW model I bought was the Dark Angels vs. Chaos starter. I dunno of anyone who has bought them directly in at least a year either

Noir wrote:

Mymearan wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

Mymearan wrote:
GW don't price based on production cost, if they did then three-sprue troops wouldn't be cheaper than two-sprue elites.

And you wouldn't have things like the minuscule Dark Elf Witch Elves costing $60 per ten miniatures!

They really just ought to price things at production cost like almost everyone else does.

Their biggest competitors don't seem to be doing that. Mantic might, but certainly not PP/CB. So basically, the ones who can get away with it

Ummmm...... That is the only way CB sets the cost for their models. Cost to produce.

Ditto for the Reaper Miniatures Dark Heaven and Bones lines.

The Auld Grump - and I have a lot of Reaper minis, from all of their lines....

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:


The new assault squad is £25 as opposed to £20.50.

That's as near as dammit a 20% price rise

I stand corrected Azrael, missed that. Was comparing the price to the tacticals, but just noticed the new tactical squad has crept up to €35 too...not happy.

I'm of the opinion that most of the boxes of core models (Guardsmen, Firewarriors, Lesser daemons, Boyz, Tac Marines etc) are amongst the best value that GW offer.

This is speaking relatively, of course, they still don't compare too favourable to the price per model of many of the other producers.

oh look, another post whining about price, ignore that video games, warmahordes, and other similar hobbies are all around the same cost, why is it that these kinds of posts don't get locked, but if you bring up that fact, your post gets locked and everyone jumps on you like your the anti-christ?

Sigismund will be my next purchase, but not for a while. I have tons of Reaper Bones to paint.

 Brennonjw wrote:
oh look, another post whining about price, ignore that video games, warmahordes, and other similar hobbies are all around the same cost, why is it that these kinds of posts don't get locked, but if you bring up that fact, your post gets locked and everyone jumps on you like your the anti-christ?

It's obviously a grand conspiracy.

Dakka is committed to destroying GW.

But you man, you're not like the rest of the sheeple. You see through it all. Take the RedPill.

 Polonius wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
oh look, another post whining about price, ignore that video games, warmahordes, and other similar hobbies are all around the same cost, why is it that these kinds of posts don't get locked, but if you bring up that fact, your post gets locked and everyone jumps on you like your the anti-christ?

It's obviously a grand conspiracy.

Dakka is committed to destroying GW.

But you man, you're not like the rest of the sheeple. You see through it all. Take the RedPill.

totally
I'm seriously just confused, box by box, it costs less than warmachine (though you need more of it), about the same as buying a video game every month, matches the entry cost of a new console, why the General hate? If you don't like the game, stop talking about it.

 Brennonjw wrote:
oh look, another post whining about price, ignore that video games, warmahordes, and other similar hobbies are all around the same cost, why is it that these kinds of posts don't get locked, but if you bring up that fact, your post gets locked and everyone jumps on you like your the anti-christ?

Because you're rude about people and confrontational, but the only thing actually resembling an argument in your post is a well trodden and widely disproved fallacy?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
oh look, another post whining about price, ignore that video games, warmahordes, and other similar hobbies are all around the same cost, why is it that these kinds of posts don't get locked, but if you bring up that fact, your post gets locked and everyone jumps on you like your the anti-christ?

Because you're rude about people and confrontational, but the only thing actually resembling an argument in your post is a well trodden and widely disproved fallacy?

why? I see posts just like mine on every thread asking "why the GW hate", don't see anyone up in arms about those

 Brennonjw wrote:


costs less than warmachine (though you need more of it)

Which ignores the cost of rules and total cost for a reasonable sized army.

about the same as buying a video game every month

Which is relevant how? Buying a Ferrari is also incredibly expensive, and watching paint dry is incredibly cheap. What's the point in comparing them? Compare wargaming to wargaming, the same wayu you'd compare video games to other video games, or cars to cars.

You wouldn't compare the cost of woodworking to gardening would you?

matches the entry cost of a new console

And? So? Therefore?

why the General hate? If you don't like the game, stop talking about it.

People are upset because they fething care. That's the idea! People don't get upset about things they don't care about.

The opposite of love isn't hate, its apathy.

Basically your argument is nothing but fallacies and insults in your first post.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:


costs less than warmachine (though you need more of it)

Which ignores the cost of rules and total cost for a reasonable sized army.

about the same as buying a video game every month

Which is relevant how? Buying a Ferrari is also incredibly expensive, and watching paint dry is incredibly cheap. What's the point in comparing them? Compare wargaming to wargaming, the same wayu you'd compare video games to other video games, or cars to cars.

You wouldn't compare the cost of woodworking to gardening would you?

matches the entry cost of a new console

And? So? Therefore?

why the General hate? If you don't like the game, stop talking about it.

People are upset because they fething care. That's the idea! People don't get upset about things they don't care about.

The opposite of love isn't hate, its apathy.

Basically your argument is nothing but fallacies and insults in your first post.

What insults? I asked why posts like this don't get locked, when ones complaining about the complainers do. The point of bringing up other things, is that people love to spout out that warhammer is expensive, and yes it is, but no more expensive than many other hobbies, that's the point of comparing them. My point boils down to that if we allow the people who are upset to post about it, even if it ads nothing to the conversation than "I think they cost a lot", why do we lock the posts that say "I think people complain about it a lot"?

Also, I was just wondering, what would you consider a reasonable sized army? 1500? 1850? just curious.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
oh look, another post whining about price, ignore that video games, warmahordes, and other similar hobbies are all around the same cost, why is it that these kinds of posts don't get locked, but if you bring up that fact, your post gets locked and everyone jumps on you like your the anti-christ?

Because you're rude about people and confrontational, but the only thing actually resembling an argument in your post is a well trodden and widely disproved fallacy?

why? I see posts just like mine on every thread asking "why the GW hate", don't see anyone up in arms about those

Would you rather be ignored?

Just because others do it doesn't make a good excuse to make inflammatory arguments. (aka attention getting) (also obviously loaded questions and what not)

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
oh look, another post whining about price, ignore that video games, warmahordes, and other similar hobbies are all around the same cost, why is it that these kinds of posts don't get locked, but if you bring up that fact, your post gets locked and everyone jumps on you like your the anti-christ?

Because you're rude about people and confrontational, but the only thing actually resembling an argument in your post is a well trodden and widely disproved fallacy?

why? I see posts just like mine on every thread asking "why the GW hate", don't see anyone up in arms about those

Dude, you just answered a question with a question.

You see posts like yours in every thread, so you've no doubt seen the typical responses to those posts, why did you feel the need to hurl yourself on the bandwagon with such gusto?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
oh look, another post whining about price, ignore that video games, warmahordes, and other similar hobbies are all around the same cost, why is it that these kinds of posts don't get locked, but if you bring up that fact, your post gets locked and everyone jumps on you like your the anti-christ?

Because you're rude about people and confrontational, but the only thing actually resembling an argument in your post is a well trodden and widely disproved fallacy?

why? I see posts just like mine on every thread asking "why the GW hate", don't see anyone up in arms about those

Dude, you just answered a question with a question.

You see posts like yours in every thread, so you've no doubt seen the typical responses to those posts, why did you feel the need to hurl yourself on the bandwagon with such gusto?

I'm sorry, I worded that poorly. On posts asking "why the GW" hate, I see tones of people answering that "oh look, a person whining about whiners". I'm just wondering why it's more acceptable on dakka to hate GW than it is to ask why the hate.

 Brennonjw wrote:
oh look, another post whining about price, ignore that video games, warmahordes, and other similar hobbies are all around the same cost, why is it that these kinds of posts don't get locked, but if you bring up that fact, your post gets locked and everyone jumps on you like your the anti-christ?

It was not specifically about "whining about price".
Some productive statements of why some "are" buying and their reasons.
While others state they are "not" buying and their reasons.
Nice to see you acknowledge with your opening statement that GW can be a controversial topic.

Topics of this nature tend to get locked if people get personal in their "jumping all over you" or too many posts with nothing constructive to add occur.
<edit> I suspect the condescending tone of the post is the greater reason for being treated like an "anti-Christ", go looking for trouble, "oh look," you find it!

Personally, the examples you gave have a subjective "value for money" that appears greater than many GW product, never mind game rule systems.

You do however have a point that the costing itself is very similar model for model.

The base cost to get to play the game however is vastly different from GW to Warmahordes and a "video game".
- GW: Big rule book, Codex, minimum models for a valid game.
- Warmahordes: Rulebook, minimum models for a valid game (model info on included cards).
- Video game: Base system PC, console, purchased game (download or DVD).

I have a vested interest in GW product because I started when GW had "good" rules and the pricing seemed competitive on all levels.
Past performance vs. present is where the perceived "whining" is about the "good ol' days" with hopes of seeing them again.