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I'd be fine with a Tau codex and a "Tau Empire" codex that expanded on all the races of the Tau Empire, as that's a large draw for me when it comes to the army. They just feel like a true empire.

 Stormonu wrote:

Merellin wrote:
Earth Hunters..? Earth caste Tau are builders and scientists, They dont go into war. The closest they get to going into war is landing on a mostly converted planet to build a Tau city and "recruitment" center. They dont have soldiers or fighters..

Yeah, I know. It's time to change the fluff on that. While the Tau may have overall castes - and Fire are the warriors - I say have "elements of battle" that are grouped by elementals. Air would be skimmers and fliers, Fire would be fast and hard hitting units (primarily ranged), Earth would be tough/defensive units excelling at close combat (carbines & melee) and Water would be battlesuits like the Riptide, KV and bigger suits.

I just think its dumb to exclude three of the elements on castes that will never appear on the battlefield in what is a tabletop wargame.

I'd honestly hate if they did that.

A large draw for me when it comes to the Tau isn't that they have peaceful approaches, but because they are very clever about how the conduct their conquests. Think about how amazingly efficient the Water Caste must be at their job if they can leave as ambassadors and have multiple imperial worlds handed over to them without any force. That just puts the Tau on such a higher level than most of the forces out there, and shows just how amazingly intelligent and cunning they can truly be.

The same goes for the Earth Caste, who are so devoted in their task, and are so specialized, that they can create advanced technology in a very short time. As ImAGeek said, you can always feel their presence on the battlefield, without them being there.

So yea, it would be tragic if they took all these awesome aspects and turned them into generic elemental warriors that we've seen a million times over in other forms of media.

Agreed. Making the Tau just another grimdark species whose entire species is geared towards grimdark war rather than a young and thriving society where not EVERYONE is grimdark is kinda nice.

Actually the Air caste does appear on the battlefield. The flyers. That symbol on the top of them is the Air caste symbol, and they are said to have Air caste pilots in the fluff. Just sayin'.

As for the Vespid discussion, I think their weapons need to either be made Assault 2 or Rapid Fire and they need to be increased in toughness/strength. After all, insects, for their size, are some of the most robust creatures on Earth, so insectoid aliens should be pretty tough.

That's what I say. Make them anti-meq meqs.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Agreed. Making the Tau just another grimdark species whose entire species is geared towards grimdark war rather than a young and thriving society where not EVERYONE is grimdark is kinda nice.

Their entire species is geared towards grimdark war though. Absolutely everything that goes on in the Tau Empire is for the purpose of aggressive, military expansion. They have no culture whatsoever.

There hasn't been a single bit of background material supporting the Tau Empire as anything less than a war machine.

They don't kill every alien they encounter, but brainwashing and slavery are basically the same thing. They are trying to conquer the galaxy by any means necessary.

What you have to understand is there is a difference between expansion and being a "war machine". Many of the worlds they claim are won by the water caste, not the fire caste. It's not military expansion, it's expansion, period.

And what do you mean "no culture"?

Right, more of a "manifest destiny" than anything else. Similar to the Great Crusade prior to the Horus Heresy (depending on who was writing the book, though). If a planet joined the Imperium willingly, they didn't send in the military. Kinda like the Tau, currently.

And there really has been no straight out "And the Ethereals mentally enslave everyone they meet" spelled out. Maybe they're just REALLY persuasive.

You can prove by their architectural style they have culture and art.

We've focused so completely on their military side and only caught glimpses of the civilian life.

This is why I was disappointed when the rumored Tau Empire Roleplaying book was cancelled by FFG. It would have greatly expanded on non-military lore.

Only the Vespids are totally enslaved. Thats pretty clear cut, with the special helmets and all.

So, no codex news or rumors yet huh? I would thought there would be some by now.

So, I'll let something a little birdie told me out: Vespids will have their own formation, that includes giant bugs.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Agreed. Making the Tau just another grimdark species whose entire species is geared towards grimdark war rather than a young and thriving society where not EVERYONE is grimdark is kinda nice.

Their entire species is geared towards grimdark war though. Absolutely everything that goes on in the Tau Empire is for the purpose of aggressive, military expansion. They have no culture whatsoever.

There hasn't been a single bit of background material supporting the Tau Empire as anything less than a war machine.

They don't kill every alien they encounter, but brainwashing and slavery are basically the same thing. They are trying to conquer the galaxy by any means necessary.

Of course they have culture. 'Aggressive expansion' doesn't preclude any form of culture. They aren't entirely geared towards war, that's just what we see most of because this is a wargame.

I don't think it's a matter of them not being grimdark, it's that they're more sinister than they are brute force. Think of it this way, most races in 40k are basically brute force destroyers who would rather destroy all others than utilize them, the Tau don't care if someone is different as long as they can provide them with a benefit.

Basically, in the grimdark world of 40k, the Tau are more of a Little Finger army than they are say Stannis Borathian or Lannisters. They can be extremely brutal if they wish to, but generally go with a more political method.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Right, more of a "manifest destiny" than anything else. Similar to the Great Crusade prior to the Horus Heresy (depending on who was writing the book, though). If a planet joined the Imperium willingly, they didn't send in the military. Kinda like the Tau, currently.

And there really has been no straight out "And the Ethereals mentally enslave everyone they meet" spelled out. Maybe they're just REALLY persuasive.

Actually it sounded a lot more like they offered a lot of toys to the people, helped them rid the political opposition (that conveniently opposed the Tau), and then slowly implemented rules to promote joining the Tau empire over resisting it.

In other words, they're not going around and threatening people with invasion, but rather slowly building a Starbucks around them so that they don't have the desire to rebel or oppose the Tau. I mean they have a ton of advanced technology and more, despite being a super young race, so when they show up on war stricken worlds, kill an enemy of their own, and then provide a bunch of luxuries to the people on that world, they'll probably gain a lot of favour without having to threaten. They basically conquer a lot of worlds in the manner that you gain allies with city states in Civ 5, sure they might be their own entity, but they provide you with army units, resources you want, and more... You own them in all but name.

maceria wrote:
Only the Vespids are totally enslaved. Thats pretty clear cut, with the special helmets and all.

That's not actually fully in the lore, is it? As far as I remember that was stated to just be whisper and rumour that it could be the case, but no evidence was ever found to support it. I mean I wouldn't put it past them to do something like that, but it seemed more like the Vespid just knew they could either die or join up, and happened to have somewhat similar beliefs to the Tau.

I always viewed the Vespid helm thing as more of a conspiracy theory than actual fact, which was most likely that the Vespids were partially bought out, partially strong armed, and partially just wanted to join. I mean the Vespid are very loyal to their leaders and they don't seem stupid, as much as very alien, so I wouldn't put it past them to go "Well, we could be obliterated, or we could join these other guys who give us some cool tech and kind of believe the same stuff as us... Yea we like not dying. Oh hey, they are pretty cool and have a giant space army, while we're basically all from one planet, yea better not piss them off. Oh! And did we mention they'll kill our political resistance for us, so we can rule?"

Never explicitly confirmed. Just that Water negotiations weren't going well for years, then the Etherials had a special helmet to put on the strain leaders, and now the Vespids work for the greater good giving troops and their highly coveted crystals. The codex says that it may have been then case, but there is *wink wink* no evidence.

I think perhaps the first of the Vespid may have been mind controlled if only to establish communication and then slowly but surely they just chose to accept us with some good help from their leaders.

There is some interesting technology only the vespid can use. Their wings allow their guns to be as strong as they are.

There has been no sign they are a hive mind like the tyranids. If that were so all we would need is a single helmet to communicate with them. When it clearly states we made the helmets to communicate with them.

It would be hard pressed too make and forcefully or peacefully apply helmets to an entire species.

maceria wrote:
Never explicitly confirmed. Just that Water negotiations weren't going well for years, then the Etherials had a special helmet to put on the strain leaders, and now the Vespids work for the greater good giving troops and their highly coveted crystals. The codex says that it may have been then case, but there is *wink wink* no evidence.

The codex says:

"When the Water caste first encountered the Vespids, they had many difficulties - the insectoid mindset seemed too radically different to grasp or reason with. However, at the instruction of the Ethereals, the Earth caste supplied a communication interface device that facilitated a much greater degree of understanding between the two races."

It sounds more like the Water Caste wasn't able to really make any progress with them due to personal difficulties of understand the Vespids, and were about to call in the Fire Caste to deal with the situation, but the Ethereals stepped in and saw there was a better way to accomplish this. You know, the Water Caste can't really do much if they can't communicate with a species in an efficient manner, and it sounds like the Vespids speak in a massively different way than the Tau, since they use their antennae to communicate instead of comm-sets and the like... Can you imagine trying to talk to someone who doesn't use language but rather a series of intricate twitches?

It would also be really weird if the Tau armed the Vespid with the same crystals they coveted if they had simply enslaved the Vespids. I just always read it as those who view the Tau in a negative light believe the Vespids were enslaved, when in reality they probably just made a rational decision, based on knowledge of how out powered they were, and how much technology the Tau supplied them with.

Edit: The helmets were also upgraded more than once, so it's more likely that they were trying to decipher the Vespid languages instead of simply mind controlling them, and without the aid of the Earth Caste the Water Caste couldn't ever expect to make any progress.

You can't really enslave a willing volunteer.

I'm sure it was a mix of willing an unwilling, and the willing probably had a good argument that they would be most likely nuked from orbit and then invaded if they didn't accept the Tau, but if they did accept the Tau they'd get more cool stuff.

Dunno if this is in another rumor thread, but the teaser for the Skarbrand issue of White Dwarf is, "Next week: the rising storm"

Yipeeeee!

 Talys wrote:
Dunno if this is in another rumor thread, but the teaser for the Skarbrand issue of White Dwarf is, "Next week: the rising storm"

Yipeeeee!

i thought it was clear that the XV128 Stormsurge is next week??

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304969-rumours-tau-leaks-page-7/?p=4175235

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304969-rumours-tau-leaks-page-7/?p=4177977

Bell of Clickbait Souls is always late ... >.>

 Atia wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Dunno if this is in another rumor thread, but the teaser for the Skarbrand issue of White Dwarf is, "Next week: the rising storm"

Yipeeeee!

i thought it was clear that the XV128 Stormsurge is next week??

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304969-rumours-tau-leaks-page-7/?p=4175235

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304969-rumours-tau-leaks-page-7/?p=4177977

Bell of Clickbait Souls is always late ... >.>

I think it depends on what you mean by "next week".

This week's release is Slaughterpriest and Skullgrinder (technically not out for another day).

Saturday 10/3's release (technically, "next week", since it's 8 days away...) is definitely Skarbrand. But of course we'll see the model by around Tuesday 9/29, and the WD with that. I dunno what's in that issue, but it can't be Skarbrand, since he's on this week's issue

Saturday 10/10's release sounds like it will be Stormsurge (hence "rising storm), which sounds like 2 weeks away, but the WD and some models should leak closer to 10/6... which feels closer than 2 weeks

Also, my bad. I said, "the Skarbrand issue", which is ambiguous -- when I actually meant, the issue of WD that was being released on Skarbrand's week (not the issue where Skarbrand is on the cover of WD). Are we confused yet??

Sorry. I'm just excited. Too long since 40k models!

tbh that's something i get a bit confused each week, cause i usualy use the term releases for both pre-order/real release haha xD

well, usualy if i say "X Y Z is next week", i mean pre-orders^^

(that's also even more confusing as you get the WD pictures ~ monday the week of pre-orders, i get my releases normally ~ thursday and the GW release date is a saturday oO)

 Atia wrote:
tbh that's something i get a bit confused each week, cause i usualy use the term releases for both pre-order/real release haha xD

well, usualy if i say "X Y Z is next week", i mean pre-orders^^

(that's also even more confusing as you get the WD pictures ~ monday the week of pre-orders, i get my releases normally ~ thursday and the GW release date is a saturday oO)

Yeah LOL. I know exactly what you mean In my mind, Skarbrand is already "this week" and Stormsurge is "next week". Even though it's not really

As soon as we see it on a leaked WD cover, it will be more real, hehe. And then I can obsess over what's coming.. uh.. next week!

Wait, I'm confused.

I thought the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge were part of the same kit?

As far as I understand the background material, the worlds and species that have joined the Tau Empire have been very happy about their decision. The 40K galaxy is hostile, and it isn't easy to go at it alone. Likewise, many worlds are rather part of the Tau Empire than the Imperium of Man. Said that, I don't really understand the discussion about slavery and brainwashing in this thread. Are you saying that spreading democracy in the real world is also brainwashing aka spreading democracy and asking nations to be allies is also brainwashing and/or slavery? Creating wealth in countries where previously there was none, is also brainwashing and slavery? I mean what are we talking about here?

The Tau are undoubtedly the only good faction in the entire 40K. Sure there's shades of grey there, but there's shades of grey in the real world too. Good guys are never that good. But they're better than everyone else.

The Ghostkeel is much smaller than the Stormsurge. It may be a thing like the Tyrannocyte where you can make a Stormsurge or a Ghostkeel and a Riptide, though.

 Verviedi wrote:
The Ghostkeel is much smaller than the Stormsurge. It may be a thing like the Tyrannocyte where you can make a Stormsurge or a Ghostkeel and a Riptide, though.

No it won't, the Stormsurge is bigger than the riptide (or at least has completely new legs and so much over the torso that there's maybe one riptide sprue in there). They're almost certainly 3 different kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Wait, I'm confused.

I thought the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge were part of the same kit?

The Ghostkeel is smaller than a Riptide, and the Stormsurge looks bigger.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Wait, I'm confused.

I thought the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge were part of the same kit?

Unlikely. We have the White Dwarf cover for October 10th, which is the pre-order date of the Ghostkeel.

The added sentence of an exclusive "minigame" for the Stormsurge suggest that the Stormsurge will go on pre-order prior to the leaked White Dwarf from the 10th (almost certainly the week before that).

Yeah, it looks like they're on a cycle of WD covers previewing the next release, rather than featuring the current release. For instance WD 87 is September 26, featuring Skarbrand, which sells October 3.

Maybe WD88 is Oct 3, featuring Stormsurge on the cover. But even if so, it won't be available til Oct 10.

We know WD89 is Oct 10, featuring Ghostkeel on the cover.

And then there's still the Codex! And the commander. And fire warriors.

Regarding games and scenarios in White Dwarf. There have been mini-games in WDW focussing on miniatures which were only available for preorder the same week

 Therion wrote:
As far as I understand the background material, the worlds and species that have joined the Tau Empire have been very happy about their decision. The 40K galaxy is hostile, and it isn't easy to go at it alone. Likewise, many worlds are rather part of the Tau Empire than the Imperium of Man. Said that, I don't really understand the discussion about slavery and brainwashing in this thread. Are you saying that spreading democracy in the real world is also brainwashing aka spreading democracy and asking nations to be allies is also brainwashing and/or slavery? Creating wealth in countries where previously there was none, is also brainwashing and slavery? I mean what are we talking about here?

The Tau are undoubtedly the only good faction in the entire 40K. Sure there's shades of grey there, but there's shades of grey in the real world too. Good guys are never that good. But they're better than everyone else.

Not quite. I mean, those that joined the Tau are mostly happy with the decision (there is a lot of dissent amongst the Kroot though), but the choice being made is pretty clearly 'join or die'. Its stated pretty clearly the Tau have wiped out entire species for refusing to join the Empire.

Well, not quite. They don't wipe out species (unless it's something like Orks or Hurd), but they will forcibly subjugate.