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 Orock wrote:
Actually what I think is worst case is a land raider crusader somehow killing itself with its 18 bolter shots. Not to mention assault cannon and melta. Or at least doing 2 or 3 HP to itself.

Here is how you counter that. Don't shoot at the few infantry models (that you could totally wreck in CC with normal marines) with your dakka tanks.It is that simple.

If you're making this mistake, then you're losing for a completely different reason.

This "wall" is really stirring folks up.

Here's a solution -

The ANTI-TAU-WALL gaming table!

https://chicagoterrainfactory.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/ruined-castle-004_1200.jpg

Now try to deploy your 300pt wall!

LighthouseM wrote:
Here is how you counter that. Don't shoot at the few infantry models (that you could totally wreck in CC with normal marines) with your dakka tanks.It is that simple.

If you're making this mistake, then you're losing for a completely different reason.

And, again, "don't shoot with your tanks because of this stupid rule" is not justification for GW's incompetence. This is not a situation that should happen.

- Commander (apparently with a drone) - 40€, 30£, 50$
- Crisis Battelsuits (3 suits + 6 drones) - 60€, 45£, 75$
- Drones (2 drones) - 9€, 7.7£, 12$

Games Workshop can go feth themselves.

$12 for two drones?

...Hey, GW executive board, see that nice little white room with the little covered platter in the middle? That's cake. And money.

Yes, go in there. It's the best choice. It's not like-

*FWOOMP*

 McNinja wrote:

- Commander (apparently with a drone) - 40€, 30£, 50$
- Crisis Battelsuits (3 suits + 6 drones) - 60€, 45£, 75$
- Drones (2 drones) - 9€, 7.7£, 12$

Games Workshop can go feth themselves.

Wait, what? I was okayish with the prices before. I expected the price hike on the commander and the Crisis Suits, and was even willing to pay the extra money for the more posable kits.
I also went off the assumption that the Drone kit was going to be four models, or maybe even six. But two? Two drones for $12? Six dollars for a fething drone?

I feel like I need to say that again. Six dollars for a single fething drone. That's insane...

Thank the greater good for Ebay, those prices are silly :(

Wow. Those drones had better come with ALL of the options, and even then it's bad. At least it makes the Piranha look like a pretty good deal, if the pair of gun drones cost $12 then the vehicle itself is only $18!

 Peregrine wrote:

LighthouseM wrote:
Here is how you counter that. Don't shoot at the few infantry models (that you could totally wreck in CC with normal marines) with your dakka tanks.It is that simple.

If you're making this mistake, then you're losing for a completely different reason.

And, again, "don't shoot with your tanks because of this stupid rule" is not justification for GW's incompetence. This is not a situation that should happen.

Well it is already said and done, so I don't understand the need to whinge about it on the interwebs. It isn't like this is Invisibility, where there is no tactical way to counter it. Ignores Cover, Flamers, Barrage, Tank Shock, Assault... there are plenty of ways around it. If you're worried about your Land Raider, then you've got access to drop pods and an easy way to attack from behind the line, which entirely negates it.

Bad rules writing or no, this is what it does. I understand that you want every unit in your army to be a threat to every unit in everyone else's army, but that has never been the case and I don't know why you would expect it to suddenly be the case.

Good thing every single Tau kit comes with at least one or two Drones (though admittedly most of those are only Gun Drones). Even so, it's not hard at all to convert the other Drone models, a couple quick cuts to the carbines makes a good Marker Drone, a shield gen or any other suitably small round bit makes a Shield Drone, an MP makes a Missile Drone, etc. Plus the newer kits like the Broadside come with options for all of them, so if you get those you're bound to have the extra bits. The only iffy ones are the Pathfinder and Shadowsun exclusive ones (of course you need those units to use those Drones in the first place so not a big deal, you need to get the kits anyway) and the new Guardian Drone. That one will likely be a bit tougher, especially if its on the standard Drone list (though I doubt I would ever take one outside of a unit with an amplifier relay). All in all, the Drone price is bull, but Drones are easy enough to get a hold of that it doesn't matter, cause there's no reason to ever by that kit.

The Commander and Crisis Suits are totally reasonable though. $50 for a brand new plastic commander that's potentially a dual kit (depending on how different the Coldstar looks compared to the standard Commander) with all the goodies and potentially a Drone? Yes please, more than worth it to replace the Finecast one (do note that this new kit will be the same price as Farsight is now, with far more options and stuff in it). And an extra $10 for Crisis Suits to get new sculpts (which are AMAZING looking) and apparently 4 of every weapon system (unless that rumor has been debunked)? Perfectly reasonable, and still worth it.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

- Commander (apparently with a drone) - 40€, 30£, 50$
- Crisis Battelsuits (3 suits + 6 drones) - 60€, 45£, 75$
- Drones (2 drones) - 9€, 7.7£, 12$

Games Workshop can go feth themselves.

Wait, what? I was okayish with the prices before. I expected the price hike on the commander and the Crisis Suits, and was even willing to pay the extra money for the more posable kits.
I also went off the assumption that the Drone kit was going to be four models, or maybe even six. But two? Two drones for $12? Six dollars for a fething drone?

I feel like I need to say that again. Six dollars for a single fething drone. That's insane...

Peregrine wrote:Wow. Those drones had better come with ALL of the options, and even then it's bad. At least it makes the Piranha look like a pretty good deal, if the pair of gun drones cost $12 then the vehicle itself is only $18!

Let's put it this way:

My salary has doubled in the last six months, and even then I still find these prices to be outrageous.

However, as clearly evidenced by the Warlord titan, the Ta'Unar, and most recently the Tidewall, there are clearly a ton of rich bastards who will pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for molded plastic. What is truly outrageous is the lack of criticism GW is getting publicly for being so absurd. Because it's in more of a niche sector, it won't necessarily get publicity (unless they sue of the term "space marine" again) and that's a shame, because maybe if people stopped blindly buying whatever gak comes out, we could see real change within the company. I would love to outright buy the company, but that's years away from happening.

The prices are so incredibly inflated, with so much overhead, that the company has to be actively working to limit sales. Gundam models are made with similar plastics and are as resilient, yet are a fraction of the cost of a larger model. At this point, Games Workshop could start killing people publicly in the streets of London for no reason and people would still buy their products.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

The Commander and Crisis Suits are totally reasonable though.

It's about as reasonable as chopping part of your fingers off because your gloves are too small. At this point, I'm just gonna start using gundam models. At least then I can pose them however I want and my girl won't flay me alive for giving a company that is outright contemptuous towards its own customers my money.

Just realized that the Tide Wall can reflect Splinter Cannon rounds from DE Venoms. Splinter cannons cannot in anyway shape or form harm any model with an AV rating no matter how low it goes. Yet when bouncing back from the wall, the shot strips 1/2 hull point per shooting phase.

Crisis suits are only $10 more than before. Still, $10 more than it should have been but its not that bad.

The $50 Commander can screw off. I'll stick with my proxies until i actually want to run FW suits (fancy crisis suits and r'varna)

Im guessing they hyked the drones to $12 for 2 because they know everybody has a bazillion of them by now lol. I dont even know how many gun drones i got floating around (badum tssh)

LighthouseM wrote:
I understand that you want every unit in your army to be a threat to every unit in everyone else's army, but that has never been the case and I don't know why you would expect it to suddenly be the case.

No, I want the rules in my games to make sense. A "reflect the shot back at you" rule should not selectively increase or reduce the power of that shot so that a STR 1 shot can glance AV 14, while a STR D shot can only glance AV 10. It should reflect the shot using its original strength and AP values and roll to wound/pen normally. This has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with the fact that it's a really stupid rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McNinja wrote:
However, as clearly evidenced by the Warlord titan, the Ta'Unar, and most recently the Tidewall, there are clearly a ton of rich bastards who will pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for molded plastic.

At least in the case of the Warlord and Tau walker we're talking about large resin kits. Low-production-volume resin kits like that are going to cost a lot of money, and you just expect to pay it if you want the niche-market stuff. But the Tau plastic stuff is just obscene. FFS, gun drones used to be practically free throw-ins on other kits and every Tau player always had a bunch of spares. Selling them for $6 each is just GW blatantly saying "we don't think there's a price our customers won't pay". Even if you're rich you have to be looking at that price and wondering why you're spending your money on $6 gun drones instead of getting a lot more for your money elsewhere.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Im guessing they hyked the drones to $12 for 2 because they know everybody has a bazillion of them by now lol. I dont even know how many gun drones i got floating around (badum tssh)

Which baffles my mind, because they could have just introduced a "Drone Sprue" bit that had all of the weapons (Shield, Markerlight, Sniper, Missile) and even included a Guardian Drone (new one) bit, and charged 5$ each for it without anyone really complaining. People wouldn't really worry about the price, and they'd be happy to have uses for their drone piles as we get a million of them by the time we finish our armies.

Just a quick show of hands, how many people here would buy a sprue with all of those things for 5$ as opposed to a drone for 6$? They could even throw in a Plasma Rifle for Crisis Suits, and make the Missile Pod for the drones capable of fitting on a Crisis Suit if needed.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
$50 for a brand new plastic commander that's potentially a dual kit (depending on how different the Coldstar looks compared to the standard Commander) with all the goodies and potentially a Drone? Yes please, more than worth it to replace the Finecast one (do note that this new kit will be the same price as Farsight is now, with far more options and stuff in it).

You have a very generous definition of "reasonable". Before GW's recent price insanity $50 kit used to be a full-size tank, complete with extra sprues for alternate weapons/add-on details/etc. There's no justification for charging that much for a single crisis suit besides "GW thinks their customers are desperate enough to pay any price and is trying to test the limits of the market".

And who cares if it costs the same as Farsight does now? $50 for a single finecast crisis suit is just plain lunacy. I can't imagine why anyone would buy it at that price.

Yeah $50 is crazy for a commander suit.

I'm not sure the Crisis suits are that bad of a price hike. New sculpts, right?

The last time I bought suits (2006?) they were one to a box, and cost $20 USD. I think they're 3x a box now? Is that right? If so, the cost per suit has gone to $25USD, which is what's listed per suit on GW site.

The cost of the XV8 hasn't even risen with inflation here. Huh.

$50 for a commander? PFFFT! Conversions HO!

30 dollar clampacks were bad enough as is, pretty sure that the battlesuit commander will be 60 smackeroos in Canada, which is highway robbery. I could buy a full blown game with that money.

Anyone got the hint from white dwarf for the post codex, suits, etc release?

 Grimskul wrote:
30 dollar clampacks were bad enough as is, pretty sure that the battlesuit commander will be 60 smackeroos in Canada, which is highway robbery. I could buy a full blown game with that money.

I don't know if we really want to get into what else we could do for $60. The quick answer, though, is "literally anything else."

maceria wrote:
$50 for a commander? PFFFT! Conversions HO!

And this is probably the part that makes the least sense. GW has to know that most Tau players just use the normal crisis suits for their HQ models. Who exactly is their target audience here? A variant sculpt is a fine idea if it's just slightly more than the normal one, but how many obsessive collectors are going to pay double the normal price for one?

With individual cost for an XV8, I would say $35 is about right for a commander. POSSIBLY $40 if it were a really nice model. Like FW nice. Display nice. Not gaming class.

*sigh* Looks like Ignore Cover is even more important than it already was. Glad I run a ton of Flamer weapons in both of my armies. TFCs are on my buy list even more than they already were.

Also acceptable ways to deal with the 265 pt wall of doom:
Whirlwinds, Squads of Vindicators, Psychic Shriek, Divination

maceria wrote:
With individual cost for an XV8, I would say $35 is about right for a commander. POSSIBLY $40 if it were a really nice model. Like FW nice. Display nice. Not gaming class.

To be fair, it will probably be 35-40$ on secondary sites since most of them offer around a 20% discount (Frontline Gaming for example), so it shouldn't be that bad.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
*sigh* Looks like Ignore Cover is even more important than it already was. Glad I run a ton of Flamer weapons in both of my armies. TFCs are on my buy list even more than they already were.

Also acceptable ways to deal with the 265 pt wall of doom:
Whirlwinds, Squads of Vindicators, Psychic Shriek, Divination

There's another even easier way to get around the Tidewall: run up close and contest it. The Tau player won't be able to move it, and you can then claim cover saves from it so that Tau vehicles have to suffer the Wall of Glancing Death. And if you're that close, you're guaranteed a charge onto the Tau forces to wipe them in CC.

The wall comments are ....special. Maybe be like elsa, and let it go?

The prices on the new things are just bad business.

The justification "they had to make new molds" is pure bunk - with advances in technology and design, they should be cheaper, not more expensive. They are a vertically integrated monopoly - they have one of the best cost structures possible.

Gw has incredible margins - they charge high prices due to their hubris and ignorance of what they are selling and to whom they are selling it too.

With smart business leadership this company would be a billion dollar industry - instead they try to squeeze as much blood from a stone as they continue to lose customers.

I was hoping to get a few more friends in to 40k recently, but at these prices, poor rules, lack of customer interfacing and alternative gaming products - is not just losing existing customers - but many future ones as well.

davethepak wrote:
The wall comments are ....special. Maybe be like elsa, and let it go?

The prices on the new things are just bad business.

The justification "they had to make new molds" is pure bunk - with advances in technology and design, they should be cheaper, not more expensive. They are a vertically integrated monopoly - they have one of the best cost structures possible.

Gw has incredible margins - they charge high prices due to their hubris and ignorance of what they are selling and to whom they are selling it too.

With smart business leadership this company would be a billion dollar industry - instead they try to squeeze as much blood from a stone as they continue to lose customers.

I was hoping to get a few more friends in to 40k recently, but at these prices, poor rules, lack of customer interfacing and alternative gaming products - is not just losing existing customers - but many future ones as well.

There is always

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
*sigh* Looks like Ignore Cover is even more important than it already was. Glad I run a ton of Flamer weapons in both of my armies. TFCs are on my buy list even more than they already were.

Also acceptable ways to deal with the 265 pt wall of doom:
Whirlwinds, Squads of Vindicators, Psychic Shriek, Divination

There's another even easier way to get around the Tidewall: run up close and contest it. The Tau player won't be able to move it, and you can then claim cover saves from it so that Tau vehicles have to suffer the Wall of Glancing Death. And if you're that close, you're guaranteed a charge onto the Tau forces to wipe them in CC.

Charge Tau...and get wiped out in Overwatch. Still, moving up and sitting on it myself would be fun. I'd still be able to torch it with my Land Raider Redeemer too. Looks like that thing is always going to be moving Cruising Speed and firing a sponson using PotMS.

Edit: Completely forgot about my ObSec Sternguard and their IC ammo.

I love reading this thread because it seems every page it flips from "tau are op because of the tidelwall!" to "tau are useless because 80pt devilfish!". Make up your mind