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How is a laser pointer making a weapon +1S?

 Kanluwen wrote:
How is a laser pointer making a weapon +1S?

From Lexicanum:

The Mont'ka is a carefully planned attack designed to wipe out critical enemy defenses or units in single, well-placed strikes. Once the strongest points of enemy resistance are crushed, the remainder of the force can generally be finished off more easily.

The idea is that units can use markelights to attack the weakest part of enemy units, focusing fire to the point only the weak parts of the enemy remain. Mont'ka Mls don't just point where the enemy is, their fires are specialized in locating enemy weakpoints and share targeting solutions to Tau units

MoD_Legion wrote:
Sigh no field relay for strike team :(. At least they didnt made them worse, just no change at all to normal firewarriors (except being able to use the turrety thing).

I the DS8 Drone Turret option is a fairly solid change to the unit, so it's hard for me to say the unit did not change at all. My prediction for the future is that Firewarriors Strike Teams fielding these drones will be the constant.

I've always been hoping for some change to the fire warriors for a long time to give them some sort of flare.

For me the easiest method was to introduce Ion/Rail rifle options into the unit. but knowing that it requires a paradigm shift in the Tau design to allow organic weapon upgrade in FW teams in the GD studio, I've given up trying to hypothosize what this should be a long time ago.

The DS8 Support drone, both game-role and background-wise, is one of the best I've seen. (well, that, AND the inclusion of Breachers, which are a new form of Fire Warrior)

Markerlights exist in real life, though theyre used to direct airstrikes. Tau essentially use the same technology but have integrated it into common infantry gear, while we only use it for planes and ships so they know where to strike without having to find the point on their own.

They may not make them stronger attacks but a lot of munitions used today have a huge damage difference between being right on point and off to the side. Both are a hit, but one is a better hit.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
How is a laser pointer making a weapon +1S?

From Lexicanum:

The Mont'ka is a carefully planned attack designed to wipe out critical enemy defenses or units in single, well-placed strikes. Once the strongest points of enemy resistance are crushed, the remainder of the force can generally be finished off more easily.

The idea is that units can use markelights to attack the weakest part of enemy units, focusing fire to the point only the weak parts of the enemy remain. Mont'ka Mls don't just point where the enemy is, their fires are specialized in locating enemy weakpoints and share targeting solutions to Tau units

Yeah...that's not what that is actually suggesting.
It's saying that it is an attack that is aimed at critical defenses or units, not weakpoints on those units. It's the difference between "That squad of Terminators is a critical component of the enemy's defense" and "That squad of Terminators' weak points are their necks".

A better idea, going off of your Mont'ka suggestion, would be this:

Mont'ka:
Any unit firing at an enemy unit designated by a Markerlight when this doctrine is your chosen doctrine gains the Preferred Enemy rule

S8 Pulse Rifles is...just no. No.

Caederes wrote:
I've said my piece on why I understand all of the complaints about the rumoured/confirmed (however you wanna call it) lack of changes to existing unit, but personally I'm going to wait until the codex comes out before I say anything else which I think is a good idea. Again, if the Fireblade moved to Troops - as did Drones temporarily before they went out of stock - on the webstore then that probably means that there will be some changes to existing units.

Figured it was easier to quote you here than the larger entry up top

I personally am still pretty excited. And I am happy that this update didn't cut into the meat of the Tau lists, as changing that would really impact the Tau gameplay. Instead of a fundamental shift we get a new Lord of War, a new (admitedly broken and no one in their right mind will let us play) FW Lord of War, our basic troop choice got split in two with heavy updates, we got a new Monsterous creature Elite, a new Fortification, two new Commander types/upgrades, 8 new formations, a new unique HQ (the new small box ethereal presumably has something to him beyond a new look) and then we get MUCH needed redesigns of our crisis and commander suits. Does that not seem like a lot to everyone else, or am I missing something? I never really thought the stat lines of our existing items needed much changing, especially if these new additions fill the void of our AV14/15 killing, dealing with super melee, and having an answer to the resilient 'crons. I 100% feel we got a better deal with this than say... Orks, Nids, BAs, DAs got with their updates.

From a modeling/hobby perspective I'm annoyed as hell at the new prices by GW - but I also realize I don't have to rebuy ANY of my existing models for this. So while new players are getting fleeced (a new beginners box with a deep discount deserves to exist if they'll have to pay this much for all of the remaining items. Otherwise these prices are seriously looking like what it costs to have a nice low grade crack habit.) those who already have healthy Tau lineups are mostly safe on the stupid crisis/commander/fire warrior/drone prices. I personally am looking forward to taking my old crisis suits, looking where there's wear and tear, and perhaps pock marking them a bit and doing some battle damage to make them stand out as "old" suits with the current load outs they have. Then I'll only get new suits as I want to make new "squads" with combos I want and make them look shiny and new.Could be a fun exercise and reinforce the suit model designations.

Ok, back to work. Enjoying how this thread has finally moved beyond straight up troll posts into honest thoughts on the shape of our imminent changes.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Markerlights exist in real life, though theyre used to direct airstrikes. Tau essentially use the same technology but have integrated it into common infantry gear, while we only use it for planes and ships so they know where to strike without having to find the point on their own.

They're used to direct airstrikes/laser guided munitions(hint hint), guide in certain kinds of 'smart' artillery rounds, used alongside of sniper rifles(laser rangefinders) and were used for 'smart' grenade rounds on the XM25 launcher's airburst mode(seen Elysium? that's where the idea for the AK with the airburst rounds came from) and the like.

Markerlights aren't doing anything but 'designating' a target in a way that you would need specialized detection gear to utilize that designation.

They may not make them stronger attacks but a lot of munitions used today have a huge damage difference between being right on point and off to the side. Both are a hit, but one is a better hit.

Sure, but a rifle shot on a designated target isn't going to be able to scratch a tank.

I have been following this new Tau release stuff, and although it looks fantastic, I actually found myself leaning towards Raven Guard! Anyone else go that way?

Maximum of +2str, so it would be S7 pulse rifles. Still a bit crazy though.

I could see 2ML for +1S, since 1 for 1 is kinda insane. Even just adding 1 str to majority of our guns is huuuuuuge

 Kanluwen wrote:

A better idea, going off of your Mont'ka suggestion, would be this:

Mont'ka:
Any unit firing at an enemy unit designated by a Markerlight when this doctrine is your chosen doctrine gains the Preferred Enemy rule

That's indeed more acceptable. Still, better than doubling up MLs

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

A better idea, going off of your Mont'ka suggestion, would be this:

Mont'ka:
Any unit firing at an enemy unit designated by a Markerlight when this doctrine is your chosen doctrine gains the Preferred Enemy rule

That's indeed more acceptable. Still, better than doubling up MLs

Honestly?

The problem is that you're trying to equate "creative" with "special rules/boosts". "Creative" can be something as simple as "New/different".

Do you realize how big of a deal a single Markerlight causing double Tokens is?
A 4 man team of Pathfinders potentially giving you 8 Markerlight Tokens for 44 points is huge. It's HUGE.
Think about a unit of Broadsides with Heavy Railrifles firing at an Invis'd Centurion squad with those 8 Markerlight tokens. They could go from BS1(for Snap-Shooting) to BS9, with twin-link to boot.

And that's before adding in anything else like the Missile Drones or SMS or Plasma Rifles or whatever else you've kitted the Broadside out with.

GreyDragoon wrote:

Caederes wrote:
I've said my piece on why I understand all of the complaints about the rumoured/confirmed (however you wanna call it) lack of changes to existing unit, but personally I'm going to wait until the codex comes out before I say anything else which I think is a good idea. Again, if the Fireblade moved to Troops - as did Drones temporarily before they went out of stock - on the webstore then that probably means that there will be some changes to existing units.

Figured it was easier to quote you here than the larger entry up top

I personally am still pretty excited. And I am happy that this update didn't cut into the meat of the Tau lists, as changing that would really impact the Tau gameplay. Instead of a fundamental shift we get a new Lord of War, a new (admitedly broken and no one in their right mind will let us play) FW Lord of War, our basic troop choice got split in two with heavy updates, we got a new Monsterous creature Elite, a new Fortification, two new Commander types/upgrades, 8 new formations, a new unique HQ (the new small box ethereal presumably has something to him beyond a new look) and then we get MUCH needed redesigns of our crisis and commander suits. Does that not seem like a lot to everyone else, or am I missing something? I never really thought the stat lines of our existing items needed much changing, especially if these new additions fill the void of our AV14/15 killing, dealing with super melee, and having an answer to the resilient 'crons. I 100% feel we got a better deal with this than say... Orks, Nids, BAs, DAs got with their updates.

From a modeling/hobby perspective I'm annoyed as hell at the new prices by GW - but I also realize I don't have to rebuy ANY of my existing models for this. So while new players are getting fleeced (a new beginners box with a deep discount deserves to exist if they'll have to pay this much for all of the remaining items. Otherwise these prices are seriously looking like what it costs to have a nice low grade crack habit.) those who already have healthy Tau lineups are mostly safe on the stupid crisis/commander/fire warrior/drone prices. I personally am looking forward to taking my old crisis suits, looking where there's wear and tear, and perhaps pock marking them a bit and doing some battle damage to make them stand out as "old" suits with the current load outs they have. Then I'll only get new suits as I want to make new "squads" with combos I want and make them look shiny and new.Could be a fun exercise and reinforce the suit model designations.

Ok, back to work. Enjoying how this thread has finally moved beyond straight up troll posts into honest thoughts on the shape of our imminent changes.

The problem is that it still means a lot of the units no-one took will continue to sit on shelves, and there are quite a few of those units (as mentioned prior, the Tau book has some pretty horrendous internal balance).

As for getting a better deal than other armies, if the rules don't change then Dark Angels will have been a better update from a strictly tournament-based perspective. The army got buffed into the stratosphere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Honestly?

The problem is that you're trying to equate "creative" with "special rules/boosts". "Creative" can be something as simple as "New/different".

Do you realize how big of a deal a single Markerlight causing double Tokens is?
A 4 man team of Pathfinders potentially giving you 8 Markerlight Tokens for 44 points is huge. It's HUGE.
Think about a unit of Broadsides with Heavy Railrifles firing at an Invis'd Centurion squad with those 8 Markerlight tokens. They could go from BS1(for Snap-Shooting) to BS9, with twin-link to boot.

And that's before adding in anything else like the Missile Drones or SMS or Plasma Rifles or whatever else you've kitted the Broadside out with.

To be fair, you still need to actually hit the Invisible Centurion Squad with the Markerlights first, which doesn't solve the problem Markerlights have of not helping Tau against death-stars. It's undeniably strong but personally I'd rather some other kind of bonus.

There is also this translation that was listed by Mauler for the Burning Dawn
**Rough** translations of the Burning Dawn SRs:

Cadre:
Shrouded?
Master of Beckoning: Once per game Aun'Do can use Invocation to choose two elemental powers instead of one.
Infiltration Cadre: All units in this Formation have the Scout USR. Units that already have the Scout USR gain Infiltrate instead.


Tireless Hunter (Piranha):
+1BS (BS4)
Supporting Fire (Gun Drones only)

Pathfinder Team Aurora:
Scouts
Relentless (Shas'ui Starshroud only) - ((only really benefits firing the markerlight while moving?))
FNP? (Shas'ui Starshroud only)
Bonding Knife Ritual? (mentions ICs so may not be)
Supporting Fire


Stealth Team Shadows Flood(?)
Infiltrate
Precision Shots
Same Bonding Knife Ritual(?) as above
Supporting Fire

Aun'Do
Exemplar of the Selfless Cause
Fearless
IC
Invocation Of The Elements

Gear:
Honourblade
Homing Beacon
Hover Drone (not slowed by terrain when moving & charging, may move over intervening models and terrain but may not end movement upon either and automatically passes dangerous terrain tests).


I see the Markerlight rules for ignoring cover still has a cost of 2 tokens which, even as a Tau player, makes me a sad panda - the old 1 token removes 1 point of cover save was far more reasonable. :(

Caederes wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Honestly?

The problem is that you're trying to equate "creative" with "special rules/boosts". "Creative" can be something as simple as "New/different".

Do you realize how big of a deal a single Markerlight causing double Tokens is?
A 4 man team of Pathfinders potentially giving you 8 Markerlight Tokens for 44 points is huge. It's HUGE.
Think about a unit of Broadsides with Heavy Railrifles firing at an Invis'd Centurion squad with those 8 Markerlight tokens. They could go from BS1(for Snap-Shooting) to BS9, with twin-link to boot.

And that's before adding in anything else like the Missile Drones or SMS or Plasma Rifles or whatever else you've kitted the Broadside out with.

To be fair, you still need to actually hit the Invisible Centurion Squad with the Markerlights first, which doesn't solve the problem Markerlights have of not helping Tau against death-stars. It's undeniably strong but personally I'd rather some other kind of bonus.

It's undeniably strong because Markerlights as they are now, only have to hit to cause their effect, and are considered fairly strong to begin with. All you need, quite literally, is one good volley of hits with Markerlights from a unit and the right unit kitted out with non-ordnance/blast weaponry to negate a death-star.

Caederes wrote:

The problem is that it still means a lot of the units no-one took will continue to sit on shelves, and there are quite a few of those units (as mentioned prior, the Tau book has some pretty horrendous internal balance).

As for getting a better deal than other armies, if the rules don't change then Dark Angels will have been a better update from a strictly tournament-based perspective. The army got buffed into the stratosphere.

Completely agreed on the internal balance issue. Stealth Suits, sniper drone teams, pathfinders, Vespids and both of the fliers are really just not relevant currently. I'm moving FWs out of that group with these new teams and their new heavy weapon-ish turrets. The Fliers are really the most pathetic of the lot, they simply need much lower points to be worth anything, or a reworking of their armaments to let these graham-cracker armor'd things out there to play. Kroot aren't irrelevant simply because you must take some troop choice for the core-dex troop choice, and their outflanking/reserve with hound gives them more of a chance to play a worthwhile roll before death than current-dex firewarrior squads. The Devilfish could also use a point drop, but that's just wishing at this point, we all know it isn't going to happen.

The rest of it though is all pretty relevant in the current meta. Oh and for anyone who wants to jump on me for pathfinders being listed, it's just because they're straight up irrelevant with drone controllers and marker drones. If you're using Pathfinders ifor fluff/fun or just because that's what you have available, by all means. It's better than no MLs! But they're just so easily killed and nowhere near as consistent as ML drones, Skyrays, or FW Tetras.

That said.. nearly every army has a few units you're simply better off never taking.. don't they? Would anyone say there's a dex out there without a handful of "why would I take that" entries? I'd agree that having this as the norm shouldn't be the case and if GW wanted to do themselves a favor they'd simply focus on bringing the tail end units back up in relevancy.. but hey who knows. Maybe the new formations will go a long way towards doing that. Will see.

Kanluwen wrote:
Honestly?

The problem is that you're trying to equate "creative" with "special rules/boosts". "Creative" can be something as simple as "New/different".

Do you realize how big of a deal a single Markerlight causing double Tokens is?
A 4 man team of Pathfinders potentially giving you 8 Markerlight Tokens for 44 points is huge. It's HUGE.
Think about a unit of Broadsides with Heavy Railrifles firing at an Invis'd Centurion squad with those 8 Markerlight tokens. They could go from BS1(for Snap-Shooting) to BS9, with twin-link to boot.

And that's before adding in anything else like the Missile Drones or SMS or Plasma Rifles or whatever else you've kitted the Broadside out with.

And after turn 2/3, when the enemy managed to kill all your markerlight units... the contigent boost is thrown away. In fact, if you don't start turn 1, you'll severely reduce your potential as the enemy kills your ML units ASAP.

a 4-man PF will realistically hit twice. 4 MLs, ok. Next turn they're wiped off or, if you lose initative, will be already wiped off when your turn start.

Is the benefit good? Undoubtly. Is the benefit effective for the entire game? No. Eldar, Dark Angels, Space Marines and Necrons ARE. That's my problem with this potential Hunter Contingent bonus.

You won't hit 8 ML in a Invisible unit. The chances are so small that's not a feasible scenario.

And what's the problem with creative = special rules? Eldar did it (run faster), Necrons did it (boost resistance), SM did it (Combat Doctrines). All fluff AND good. Dark Angels missed it (supreme overwatch isn't dark angels thing), and now Tau has... double markerlights. yey.

GreyDragoon wrote:That said.. nearly every army has a few units you're simply better off never taking.. don't they? Would anyone say there's a dex out there without a handful of "why would I take that" entries? I'd agree that having this as the norm shouldn't be the case and if GW wanted to do themselves a favor they'd simply focus on bringing the tail end units back up in relevancy.. but hey who knows. Maybe the new formations will go a long way towards doing that. Will see.

But that shouldn't happen. All units should be interesting to be fielded. Formations aren't there to turn bad units in good units, but to give a group of selected units some special rules because they're working together, fluff-wise.

 Vector Strike wrote:

GreyDragoon wrote:That said.. nearly every army has a few units you're simply better off never taking.. don't they? Would anyone say there's a dex out there without a handful of "why would I take that" entries? I'd agree that having this as the norm shouldn't be the case and if GW wanted to do themselves a favor they'd simply focus on bringing the tail end units back up in relevancy.. but hey who knows. Maybe the new formations will go a long way towards doing that. Will see.

But that shouldn't happen. All units should be interesting to be fielded. Formations aren't there to turn bad units in good units, but to give a group of selected units some special rules because they're working together, fluff-wise.

Sounds like we're agreeing here that it shouldn't be the case that any units are trash or irrelevant. I think my argument though is that it's a broader GW problem that needs to be resolved, rather than a specific issue with the Tau dex. Everyone currently suffers from this problem don't they?

I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr

 Vector Strike wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Honestly?

The problem is that you're trying to equate "creative" with "special rules/boosts". "Creative" can be something as simple as "New/different".

Do you realize how big of a deal a single Markerlight causing double Tokens is?
A 4 man team of Pathfinders potentially giving you 8 Markerlight Tokens for 44 points is huge. It's HUGE.
Think about a unit of Broadsides with Heavy Railrifles firing at an Invis'd Centurion squad with those 8 Markerlight tokens. They could go from BS1(for Snap-Shooting) to BS9, with twin-link to boot.

And that's before adding in anything else like the Missile Drones or SMS or Plasma Rifles or whatever else you've kitted the Broadside out with.

And after turn 2/3, when the enemy managed to kill all your markerlight units... the contigent boost is thrown away. In fact, if you don't start turn 1, you'll severely reduce your potential as the enemy kills your ML units ASAP.

Then stop putting Markerlight units out in the open at the start of the game?

This isn't difficult. You are not handicapped by putting Markerlight units in cover. You have a 36" threat range with the things. That's an absurdly long range for what they give you.

a 4-man PF will realistically hit twice. 4 MLs, ok. Next turn they're wiped off or, if you lose initative, will be already wiped off when your turn start.

4 ML Tokens=+4 BS or Ignores Cover and +2 BS.

That's a pretty big benefit for "realistically hitting twice".

Is the benefit good? Undoubtly. Is the benefit effective for the entire game? No. Eldar, Dark Angels, Space Marines and Necrons ARE. That's my problem with this potential Hunter Contingent bonus.

No, your problem with it is that it is not some kind of "free" benefit from how it is reported. People neglect that Space Marines' "free transports" are barebones and consist of DEDICATED TRANSPORTS FOR UNITS THAT CAN TAKE THEM(read: you can't put someone else in them at the start of the game, so Drop Pods lose their biggest exploitative benefit unless you join an IC to the unit).

Dark Angels' biggest benefits come from being charged, Eldar are just broken period on their book, and Necrons have some broken stuff that is being exploited to hell and high water.

You won't hit 8 ML in a Invisible unit. The chances are so small that's not a feasible scenario.

The chances are small, certainly for one unit firing, but they aren't impossible. And hitting 4 Markerlights on an Invisible unit granting you 8 with this rumored change to Markerlights? That's big. You can dispute this all you want, but if this change goes through it becomes an absolute no brainer for people to take Markerlight Drone Squads or Pathfinders.

And what's the problem with creative = special rules? Eldar did it (run faster), Necrons did it (boost resistance), SM did it (Combat Doctrines). All fluff AND good. Dark Angels missed it (supreme overwatch isn't dark angels thing), and now Tau has... double markerlights. yey.

Actually? "Supreme Overwatch" very much is a Dark Angels thing. They have always been noted as being intractable, sticking to a rigid fireplan up until the last moment.

Additionally, you have creative special rules. Ethereals and Cadre Fireblades grant you unique abilities, as do Markerlights.

 Thud wrote:
I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr

The fact that the cover art is unchanged says a lot to me

GreyDragoon wrote:

Sounds like we're agreeing here that it shouldn't be the case that any units are trash or irrelevant. I think my argument though is that it's a broader GW problem that needs to be resolved, rather than a specific issue with the Tau dex. Everyone currently suffers from this problem don't they?

Indeed. I think the best thing GW ever did regarding this, at least intra-book, was with Eldar. The aspect warriors received specific buffs and now they really feel like what they can do in the fluff (warp spiders and fire dragons buffs were too much, on the toher hand):

Dire Avengers: better overwatch or counter-charge
Fire Dragons: +1 to vehicle damage table
Howling Banshees: +3" Run/Charge, no Init penalty, cannot be overwatched
Striking Scorpions: Shrouded if not move/charge
Swooping Hawks: AA grenades
Warp Spiders: jump everytime they're targeted
Dark Reapers: re-roll againsst stuff that zoomed, turbo-boosted, swooped or flat-out'ed
Shining Spears: cover bonus if moved

And from all these, only shining spears are seem as "meh" by Eldar players. Other codexes should get something similar to their units

So if one were interested in starting Tau what would be some safe purchases without seeing the codex first? I have a small idea but I am not sure and I really, really hate the kroot, vespid and stealth suit models.

Another question I have is bout markerlights and how many is a good number to have. Say I have 2 skyray would I need 2 pathfinder units for markerlights as well?

I really like the Piranha model, what is a good number to have when taking them?

 Thud wrote:
I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr

 Kanluwen wrote:

Then stop putting Markerlight units out in the open at the start of the game?

This isn't difficult. You are not handicapped by putting Markerlight units in cover. You have a 36" threat range with the things. That's an absurdly long range for what they give you.

I don't put them out in the open, but I'm not naive to believe they'll survive past turn 3. People around here understood killing them is important and, Sky Ray aside, they are all pretty fragile. I fight drop pod flamer units, ignores cover artillery, fast melee or just high volume of fire. Drones, pathfinders and tetras don't survive that.

 Kanluwen wrote:

a 4-man PF will realistically hit twice. 4 MLs, ok. Next turn they're wiped off or, if you lose initative, will be already wiped off when your turn start.

4 ML Tokens=+4 BS or Ignores Cover and +2 BS.

That's a pretty big benefit for "realistically hitting twice".

 Vector Strike wrote:

GreyDragoon wrote:

Sounds like we're agreeing here that it shouldn't be the case that any units are trash or irrelevant. I think my argument though is that it's a broader GW problem that needs to be resolved, rather than a specific issue with the Tau dex. Everyone currently suffers from this problem don't they?

Indeed. I think the best thing GW ever did regarding this, at least intra-book, was with Eldar. The aspect warriors received specific buffs and now they really feel like what they can do in the fluff (warp spiders and fire dragons buffs were too much, on the toher hand):

Dire Avengers: better overwatch or counter-charge
Fire Dragons: +1 to vehicle damage table
Howling Banshees: +3" Run/Charge, no Init penalty, cannot be overwatched
Striking Scorpions: Shrouded if not move/charge
Swooping Hawks: AA grenades
Warp Spiders: jump everytime they're targeted
Dark Reapers: re-roll againsst stuff that zoomed, turbo-boosted, swooped or flat-out'ed
Shining Spears: cover bonus if moved

And from all these, only shining spears are seem as "meh" by Eldar players. Other codexes should get something similar to their units

Sounds good to me. Honestly I don't mind those aspect warrior buffs much.. although the warp spiders one is more than a little eyebrow raising.. are there any limits to that at all? And they warp AFTER being shot at, correct?

Eldar's only problem seems to be the absolute plethora of hard or hard-ish to kill Strength D shooting platforms they're now getting with the revamp from the Craftworld. I mean it's still playable against.. and as Tau if I go first I'm not too worried.. but if they go first it's a little hard to see a path to victory if their dice are even rolling middle of the road. I'm just surprised more of that shooting isn't simple Str 10 Ap 1 with potential instant kill on 6s (that seems more than strong enough on the original WKs hardly needed a buff.)

Deathklaat wrote:So if one were interested in starting Tau what would be some safe purchases without seeing the codex first? I have a small idea but I am not sure and I really, really hate the kroot, vespid and stealth suit models.

Another question I have is bout markerlights and how many is a good number to have. Say I have 2 skyray would I need 2 pathfinder units for markerlights as well?

I really like the Piranha model, what is a good number to have when taking them?

If I were you, I'd wait for the full codex to be released. Noone knows what'll really change, aside Commander and Fire Warriors. Stealth Suits won't, so if you don't like them, no need to buy. Vespids are bad for now, and Kroot, while useful, aren't a no-brainer.

I'd say ML/Army ratio should be around 10% of your points (so, a 2000p list can do with 200p of Markerlight units). You can change this number, of course, until you find yourself comfortable. The problem with too many Mls is that you'll have less firepower.

Piranhas are nice. The more you have in a squadron, the better (because the Drones disembarking from them form a big unit), and they can form an AV11 wall to stop people chargin your more important units. A squad of 3 would be the sweet spot.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Actually? "Supreme Overwatch" very much is a Dark Angels thing. They have always been noted as being intractable, sticking to a rigid fireplan up until the last moment.

Additionally, you have creative special rules. Ethereals and Cadre Fireblades grant you unique abilities, as do Markerlights.

No, good overwatch is much more an Imperial Fists thing. Even DA players have said that.

What DA players have said that? Because I think they don't know DA if they think that it's an Imperial Fists thing.

Imperial Fists are siege experts. DA are stubborn, intractable firing lines.

Doubling markerlights is efficient, but not creative. It adds nothing new to army. Invocation of Elements did.

===

In the end, no point discussing this anymore, Kanluwen. You like the Contingent benefit, I wish it was different. Let's agree to disagree.

You're right. It's not worth discussing anymore.

You and a large number of Tau players that I have seen bemoaning this rumored Contingent benefit focus upon the idea of "we need a way to deal with Invisible units". When the existence of a way is pointed out, you then go on about how it's "too expensive" to utilize that way.

Literally the only thing you cannot do to an Invisible unit as Tau is throw templates at it. That's it.

With proper Markerlight usage and a shift from the standard template spamming loadouts, you could pretty reliably wreck Invisible stuff.

GreyDragoon wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

GreyDragoon wrote:

Sounds like we're agreeing here that it shouldn't be the case that any units are trash or irrelevant. I think my argument though is that it's a broader GW problem that needs to be resolved, rather than a specific issue with the Tau dex. Everyone currently suffers from this problem don't they?

Indeed. I think the best thing GW ever did regarding this, at least intra-book, was with Eldar. The aspect warriors received specific buffs and now they really feel like what they can do in the fluff (warp spiders and fire dragons buffs were too much, on the toher hand):

Dire Avengers: better overwatch or counter-charge
Fire Dragons: +1 to vehicle damage table
Howling Banshees: +3" Run/Charge, no Init penalty, cannot be overwatched
Striking Scorpions: Shrouded if not move/charge
Swooping Hawks: AA grenades
Warp Spiders: jump everytime they're targeted
Dark Reapers: re-roll againsst stuff that zoomed, turbo-boosted, swooped or flat-out'ed
Shining Spears: cover bonus if moved

And from all these, only shining spears are seem as "meh" by Eldar players. Other codexes should get something similar to their units

Sounds good to me. Honestly I don't mind those aspect warrior buffs much.. although the warp spiders one is more than a little eyebrow raising.. are there any limits to that at all? And they warp AFTER being shot at, correct?

Eldar's only problem seems to be the absolute plethora of hard or hard-ish to kill Strength D shooting platforms they're now getting with the revamp from the Craftworld. I mean it's still playable against.. and as Tau if I go first I'm not too worried.. but if they go first it's a little hard to see a path to victory if their dice are even rolling middle of the road. I'm just surprised more of that shooting isn't simple Str 10 Ap 1 with potential instant kill on 6s (that seems more than strong enough on the original WKs hardly needed a buff.)

Warp Spiders are so strong that they're nearly broken in some cases. They can jump after being targeted, not shot. So 90% of the time they're just going to jump out of range or behind a building unless you devote serious resources to surround them and cut them off. Not to mention that they have Rending guns that wound most things in the game on a 2+, and hit on 2s because they're almost always in the Aspect Host formation.

But that's neither here nor there in the Tau thread

GreyDragoon wrote:
Sounds good to me. Honestly I don't mind those aspect warrior buffs much.. although the warp spiders one is more than a little eyebrow raising.. are there any limits to that at all? And they warp AFTER being shot at, correct?

Eldar's only problem seems to be the absolute plethora of hard or hard-ish to kill Strength D shooting platforms they're now getting with the revamp from the Craftworld. I mean it's still playable against.. and as Tau if I go first I'm not too worried.. but if they go first it's a little hard to see a path to victory if their dice are even rolling middle of the road. I'm just surprised more of that shooting isn't simple Str 10 Ap 1 with potential instant kill on 6s (that seems more than strong enough on the original WKs hardly needed a buff.)

Warp Spiders jump the moment they are target (i.e. when you say unit X will fire at them, before rolling dice). So they can jump and stay farther than your weapon range. AFAIK, there's no limit to that special ability.

While I understand GW's position with Eldar (The most ancient race, so have the most advanced weaponry), they're not costed as such. Having D weapons isn't the problem - having D weapons in a 32p model is.

 pretre wrote:

 Thud wrote:
I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr

Spoiler:

Anyone know what the Retribution Cadre is?