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Ah fair enough, that would've been just a little bit too good as it would make flyer-based armies virtually worthless. Still, Buffmander buffed units with VTs will still shred flyers like no tomorrow as tends to be the case with Tau.

This also means Interceptor is still widely available and super cheap, meaning lots of reserve-based builds will still get trounced by a well designed Tau list. The dumb thing about the army is that you can bring all the toys (Stormsurges/Riptides/etc) in the Core formation meaning you can easily get away with a cheap Auxiliary and still have the really juicy stuff. The formations themselves are all really good too and add a lot to a standard Tau list.

Fun times ahead for my Space Marines no doubt!

Caederes wrote:
It's a great rule to be fair. It makes Railgun Hammerheads much better,

No it does not. Unit of 3 Railheads is expensive and cumbersone one-trick pony of an unit. All the tanks problems remain - terrible movement, no synergy with weapons loadouts, crappy wargear etc. Furthermore, they are terribly BORING and static unit and not the way Tau should be played. I don't own 3 Hammerheads so they can sit next to each other and shoot 1 times per turn at same target.

Devilfishes will still suck due to pretty much same reasons which make Hammerheads suck, the fliers will apparently still suck (though it matters little, they're so fugly hardly anyone uses them), the Vespid and the Kroot will still suck.

To summarize, they added craploads of gimmicks to change or buff the units which were popular, and did jack all to change units which actually needed changing. Thumbs down. Way down.

Railsides should have a Sub-munition type shot like the Railhead has. Not the same profile by any means but least so its not a wasted gun when its prime target isnt around (blast S5 AP4 perhaps?)
But, wishlisting is kinda done now lol o well.

Railheads are not bad. Theyre just not game-makers like oldschool railsides were. Not every unit has to be ludicrously powerful to be viable. I use a railhead every game, only reason i dont take more is FOC limitations. That just went away.
I need to assemble my other hammerhead. I wanted to do some fancy electronic stuff to it but im kinda changing my mind on that.

Backfire wrote:

Caederes wrote:
It's a great rule to be fair. It makes Railgun Hammerheads much better,

No it does not. Unit of 3 Railheads is expensive and cumbersone one-trick pony of an unit. All the tanks problems remain - terrible movement, no synergy with weapons loadouts, crappy wargear etc. Furthermore, they are terribly BORING and static unit and not the way Tau should be played. I don't own 3 Hammerheads so they can sit next to each other and shoot 1 times per turn at same target.

Devilfishes will still suck due to pretty much same reasons which make Hammerheads suck, the fliers will apparently still suck (though it matters little, they're so fugly hardly anyone uses them), the Vespid and the Kroot will still suck.

To summarize, they added craploads of gimmicks to change or buff the units which were popular, and did jack all to change units which actually needed changing. Thumbs down. Way down.

I'm sorry, my statement was that "It makes Railgun Hammerheads much better".....which it obviously does. How is my statement not true?

The formation that gives tank hunter/monster hunter helps them but again it's not as versatile a weapon as the HYMP is. Still in a more casual game I could now see myself using them where as before they were so niche.

They will probably only share special rules that whole units benefit from (prefered enemy etc.) Not every special rule out there.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
They will probably only share special rules that whole units benefit from (prefered enemy etc.) Not every special rule out there.

I think the idea is if they Count as being a Single Unit for rules purposes, then any special rule that affects an entire unit would be shared. For example, like you said, preferred enemy only requires one model to have it, but the entire unit benefits. The signature systems on a buffmander say that his unit gets the rerolls to hit, ignores cover. He himself gets special rules from the PENchip, but they're the kinds of rules that are shared like preferred enemy, tank hunter, stubborn.

At face value, the entire tau army can now conceivably benefit from a single buffmander in the shooting phase, albeit for a single enemy target. With the proper shooting weapons firing, that's downright scary.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
They will probably only share special rules that whole units benefit from (prefered enemy etc.) Not every special rule out there.

This still fully enables the Buffmander though as all of the Signature Systems specify "unit".

Of course, if it turns out that there ARE restrictions to the way it works....but the wording of "they are treated as being the same unit for all purposes" (paraphrasing) makes it pretty clear that it will work as we think.....anyway, if it is limited then it will still be a powerful but not overtly ridiculous buff. Buffmander bubble-shooting sounds broken but even if that isn't legal this will still help Tau massively for dealing with death-stars, plus the shared Markerlights is really darned good.

I’m envious of the Tau base formation. Looks like you can make a lot of flexible armies out of it.

Some of the auxiliaries look like they get pricy fast though. I wonder how many of them will see play on the average table?

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
They will probably only share special rules that whole units benefit from (prefered enemy etc.) Not every special rule out there.

I think the idea is if they Count as being a Single Unit for rules purposes, then any special rule that affects an entire unit would be shared. For example, like you said, preferred enemy only requires one model to have it, but the entire unit benefits. The signature systems on a buffmander say that his unit gets the rerolls to hit, ignores cover. He himself gets special rules from the PENchip, but they're the kinds of rules that are shared like preferred enemy, tank hunter, stubborn.

At face value, the entire tau army can now conceivably benefit from a single buffmander in the shooting phase, albeit for a single enemy target. With the proper shooting weapons firing, that's downright scary.

Nope, you get Target Locks on to the Buffmanders unit and shoot at three targets. Add Stormsurges into the mix for maximum multi-unit shooting cheese efficiency. Basically, you can obliterate three units a turn with the Buffmander benefits and if it does work the way I think it does with the Stormsurges then you can still have lots of units spare to shoot at other stuff.

Caederes wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
They will probably only share special rules that whole units benefit from (prefered enemy etc.) Not every special rule out there.

I think the idea is if they Count as being a Single Unit for rules purposes, then any special rule that affects an entire unit would be shared. For example, like you said, preferred enemy only requires one model to have it, but the entire unit benefits. The signature systems on a buffmander say that his unit gets the rerolls to hit, ignores cover. He himself gets special rules from the PENchip, but they're the kinds of rules that are shared like preferred enemy, tank hunter, stubborn.

At face value, the entire tau army can now conceivably benefit from a single buffmander in the shooting phase, albeit for a single enemy target. With the proper shooting weapons firing, that's downright scary.

Nope, you get Target Locks on to the Buffmanders unit and shoot at three targets. Add Stormsurges into the mix for maximum multi-unit shooting cheese efficiency. Basically, you can obliterate three units a turn with the Buffmander benefits and if it does work the way I think it does with the Stormsurges then you can still have lots of units spare to shoot at other stuff.

We will see when the book hits, but based on the description I read it seems you pick a unit to shoot at an enemy, and additional units to shoot counting as part of the same unit. Target locks are model specific, letting them branch off their firepower at other units - but that itself would not trigger another cascade of "and also pick more of your own units to count as the same unit" because it just gets too confusing at that point. Granted, the models themselves with target locks would be getting all the benefits of the buffmander, so a couple of crisis teams with missile pods would do some serious rhino eradication while the rest of the army focused on a death star or somesuch.

Stormsurge wouldnt spread the buffmander powers. Its the buffmanders unit that originates the effects and he cant join a GMC.

The Surge wouldnt gain the rules, only the effect. So any units he fires at wouldnt spread the effect again because he doesnt actually HAVE the rule.
That would be absolute WAAC material if someone tried to pull that one off.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
They will probably only share special rules that whole units benefit from (prefered enemy etc.) Not every special rule out there.

I think the idea is if they Count as being a Single Unit for rules purposes, then any special rule that affects an entire unit would be shared. For example, like you said, preferred enemy only requires one model to have it, but the entire unit benefits. The signature systems on a buffmander say that his unit gets the rerolls to hit, ignores cover. He himself gets special rules from the PENchip, but they're the kinds of rules that are shared like preferred enemy, tank hunter, stubborn.

At face value, the entire tau army can now conceivably benefit from a single buffmander in the shooting phase, albeit for a single enemy target. With the proper shooting weapons firing, that's downright scary.

Nope, you get Target Locks on to the Buffmanders unit and shoot at three targets. Add Stormsurges into the mix for maximum multi-unit shooting cheese efficiency. Basically, you can obliterate three units a turn with the Buffmander benefits and if it does work the way I think it does with the Stormsurges then you can still have lots of units spare to shoot at other stuff.

We will see when the book hits, but based on the description I read it seems you pick a unit to shoot at an enemy, and additional units to shoot counting as part of the same unit. Target locks are model specific, letting them branch off their firepower at other units - but that itself would not trigger another cascade of "and also pick more of your own units to count as the same unit" because it just gets too confusing at that point. Granted, the models themselves with target locks would be getting all the benefits of the buffmander, so a couple of crisis teams with missile pods would do some serious rhino eradication while the rest of the army focused on a death star or somesuch.

Correct, TLs are model based. For this to work, each unit would have to have every model that wants to shoot at a different unit equipped with one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Stormsurge wouldnt spread the buffmander powers. Its the buffmanders unit that originates the effects and he cant join a GMC.

The Surge wouldnt gain the rules, only the effect. So any units he fires at wouldnt spread the effect again because he doesnt actually HAVE the rule.
That would be absolute WAAC material if someone tried to pull that one off.

Yup.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
They will probably only share special rules that whole units benefit from (prefered enemy etc.) Not every special rule out there.

I think the idea is if they Count as being a Single Unit for rules purposes, then any special rule that affects an entire unit would be shared. For example, like you said, preferred enemy only requires one model to have it, but the entire unit benefits. The signature systems on a buffmander say that his unit gets the rerolls to hit, ignores cover. He himself gets special rules from the PENchip, but they're the kinds of rules that are shared like preferred enemy, tank hunter, stubborn.

At face value, the entire tau army can now conceivably benefit from a single buffmander in the shooting phase, albeit for a single enemy target. With the proper shooting weapons firing, that's downright scary.

Nope, you get Target Locks on to the Buffmanders unit and shoot at three targets. Add Stormsurges into the mix for maximum multi-unit shooting cheese efficiency. Basically, you can obliterate three units a turn with the Buffmander benefits and if it does work the way I think it does with the Stormsurges then you can still have lots of units spare to shoot at other stuff.

We will see when the book hits, but based on the description I read it seems you pick a unit to shoot at an enemy, and additional units to shoot counting as part of the same unit. Target locks are model specific, letting them branch off their firepower at other units - but that itself would not trigger another cascade of "and also pick more of your own units to count as the same unit" because it just gets too confusing at that point. Granted, the models themselves with target locks would be getting all the benefits of the buffmander, so a couple of crisis teams with missile pods would do some serious rhino eradication while the rest of the army focused on a death star or somesuch.

"Any time a unit of the Hunter Contingent shoots" - so in our example, Buffmander + three Crisis Suits w/ Target Locks - "any other unit of the same detachment that can still shoot can join their firepower to the (shooting) attack" - now we look at the Target Lock rule that states "A model with a Target Lock can shoot at a different unit to the rest of his unit" and move on to this - "those units have to shoot at the same unit, as if they were a single unit". Your Crisis Team is making a single shooting attack at three separate units which satisfies the first criteria. You then have separate units combining their own guns to each individual Crisis Suits' shooting attack; if you have 2 Fire Warrior units supporting one Crisis Suit, they are shooting at the same unit. If you also simultaneously have 2 Pathfinder units supporting a second Crisis Suit, they are also shooting at the same unit as that Crisis Suit. If there was a "primary target" rule as for Split Fire then this wouldn't work...but unless I'm horribly mistaken, per the rules it does work.

Might be horribly wrong as I am very tired but it seems to work perfectly fine so far. Honestly I pray it doesn't work like that as it would be fething stupid and broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Stormsurge wouldnt spread the buffmander powers. Its the buffmanders unit that originates the effects and he cant join a GMC.

The Surge wouldnt gain the rules, only the effect. So any units he fires at wouldnt spread the effect again because he doesnt actually HAVE the rule.
That would be absolute WAAC material if someone tried to pull that one off.

That wasn't what I meant. If the Target Lock thing actually works, a single Stormsurge could legally fire at all three separate units being hit by the Target Locks with three different weapons which would make it really easy to get the +1 Ballistic Skill bonus.

I don't play Tau so it would be up to my friends to work it out, but it is best to work this stuff out now with everyone so that there are no potentially violent arguments when the codex comes out!
Again FTR I'm trying to work the kinks out of this rule so we can get a clear idea of what it actually means and in what ways it is restricted, as I can't believe how broken it would be if it works as I describe.

One thing is for sure. I need to grab one Stormsurge.

Caederes wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
They will probably only share special rules that whole units benefit from (prefered enemy etc.) Not every special rule out there.

I think the idea is if they Count as being a Single Unit for rules purposes, then any special rule that affects an entire unit would be shared. For example, like you said, preferred enemy only requires one model to have it, but the entire unit benefits. The signature systems on a buffmander say that his unit gets the rerolls to hit, ignores cover. He himself gets special rules from the PENchip, but they're the kinds of rules that are shared like preferred enemy, tank hunter, stubborn.

At face value, the entire tau army can now conceivably benefit from a single buffmander in the shooting phase, albeit for a single enemy target. With the proper shooting weapons firing, that's downright scary.

Nope, you get Target Locks on to the Buffmanders unit and shoot at three targets. Add Stormsurges into the mix for maximum multi-unit shooting cheese efficiency. Basically, you can obliterate three units a turn with the Buffmander benefits and if it does work the way I think it does with the Stormsurges then you can still have lots of units spare to shoot at other stuff.

We will see when the book hits, but based on the description I read it seems you pick a unit to shoot at an enemy, and additional units to shoot counting as part of the same unit. Target locks are model specific, letting them branch off their firepower at other units - but that itself would not trigger another cascade of "and also pick more of your own units to count as the same unit" because it just gets too confusing at that point. Granted, the models themselves with target locks would be getting all the benefits of the buffmander, so a couple of crisis teams with missile pods would do some serious rhino eradication while the rest of the army focused on a death star or somesuch.

"Any time a unit of the Hunter Contingent shoots" - so in our example, Buffmander + three Crisis Suits w/ Target Locks - "any other unit of the same detachment that can still shoot can join their firepower to the (shooting) attack" - now we look at the Target Lock rule that states "A model with a Target Lock can shoot at a different unit to the rest of his unit" and move on to this - "those units have to shoot at the same unit, as if they were a single unit". Your Crisis Team is making a single shooting attack at three separate units which satisfies the first criteria. You then have separate units combining their own guns to each individual Crisis Suits' shooting attack; if you have 2 Fire Warrior units supporting one Crisis Suit, they are shooting at the same unit. If you also simultaneously have 2 Pathfinder units supporting a second Crisis Suit, they are also shooting at the same unit as that Crisis Suit. If there was a "primary target" rule as for Split Fire then this wouldn't work...but unless I'm horribly mistaken, per the rules it does work.

Might be horribly wrong as I am very tired but it seems to work perfectly fine so far. Honestly I pray it doesn't work like that as it would be fething stupid and broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Stormsurge wouldnt spread the buffmander powers. Its the buffmanders unit that originates the effects and he cant join a GMC.

The Surge wouldnt gain the rules, only the effect. So any units he fires at wouldnt spread the effect again because he doesnt actually HAVE the rule.
That would be absolute WAAC material if someone tried to pull that one off.

That wasn't what I meant. If the Target Lock thing actually works, a single Stormsurge could legally fire at all three separate units being hit by the Target Locks with three different weapons which would make it really easy to get the +1 Ballistic Skill bonus.

I don't play Tau so it would be up to my friends to work it out, but it is best to work this stuff out now with everyone so that there are no potentially violent arguments when the codex comes out!
Again FTR I'm trying to work the kinks out of this rule so we can get a clear idea of what it actually means and in what ways it is restricted, as I can't believe how broken it would be if it works as I describe.

Don't think this will work. The "shooting attack" is made at the primary target of the unit. The TL makes a shooting attack at a different unit. The target of the UNITS shooting attack is still that first target, not the one the TL guy shoots at.

@Samurai_Eduh

Here's the thing though, Target Locks aren't worded like Split Fire. There's no mention of "shooting attacks" which is what presumably determines the usage of the combined-shooting rule. Basically, if the rule is worded as luchiban describes and Target Locks keep the same wording, I think the trick does work.

And for all we know they've reworded target locks in the new book. So it's still not confirmed yet, but if the way you're saying it works is true, I would never play it that way with my tau. It's powerful enough at face value, there's really no need to go digging and rules-lawyering mid-game to try and glean over 9000 status from it.

disclaimer: i know not all gamers would feel the way i do about this, but the gamers i play against are all like-minded so locally i shouldn't have any trouble with this.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
And for all we know they've reworded target locks in the new book. So it's still not confirmed yet, but if the way you're saying it works is true, I would never play it that way with my tau. It's powerful enough at face value, there's really no need to go digging and rules-lawyering mid-game to try and glean over 9000 status from it.

disclaimer: i know not all gamers would feel the way i do about this, but the gamers i play against are all like-minded so locally i shouldn't have any trouble with this.

See that's just the thing, for casual games it won't make a difference as no-one would play it that way and be able to maintain their gaming group. For tournaments however it could outright jack Tau up to the top spot in terms of power. I can definitely see this getting super-FAQ'd by either GW or tournament organizers really quickly if the trick works as it is stupid on so many levels.

At the very least, even if it doesn't work with Target Locks we can at least enjoy a Space Marine/Necron level codex! Will be a good challenge for my Skyhammer/Gladius, the detachment paired with a Stormsurge is going to nasty as all heck.

When you shoot at someone in the shooting phase, you make a shooting attack. The sequence for using TLs is:

1. Declare the enemy unit the TL unit is shooting at.
2. TL suits then declare what units they are going to shoot at, seperate from the rest of the unit.

The TL shots don't count as another unit shooting, which from the leak is what triggers the sharing special rule. "Any time a UNIT of the Hunter Contingent shoots..."

Is the Crisis unit firing? Yes, at the target unit. You can pile on to that unit.

Is the TL suit a UNIT firing? No, it is a model in the crisis unit allowed to choose a seperate target.

Backfire wrote:

Caederes wrote:
It's a great rule to be fair. It makes Railgun Hammerheads much better,

No it does not. Unit of 3 Railheads is expensive and cumbersone one-trick pony of an unit. All the tanks problems remain - terrible movement, no synergy with weapons loadouts, crappy wargear etc. Furthermore, they are terribly BORING and static unit and not the way Tau should be played. I don't own 3 Hammerheads so they can sit next to each other and shoot 1 times per turn at same target.

That's not the way YOU want to play Tau. Many players find ok to do gunlines, other rather a mix and some rather full tilt at the enemy.

Units of hammerheads can now fire 3 S8 AP3 blasts/9 S7 AP3 shots or 3 S6 AP4 blasts/3 S10 AP1 - and all at BS5. If taken in an AIC, they even re-roll to hit against enemies. Re-roll with blasts = win. Oh, and if you get them inside a Hunter Contigent, they'll get special rules from other units and at least 2 other units firing in tandem, you'll get +1BS. BS6 Hammerheads aren't too bad, are they?

A bit costly, of course, but better than the previous one.

And I share with you the disappointment with the lack of changes to base kroot, vespid, pathfinders, stealth suits... but now these are past waters. Time to move on and accept what we have now - which isn't bad!

Thats what im assuming its going to be. If its not that way in the codex its bound to be FAQ'd about as quick as Missile Drones did to include primary target. No matter what rule you have to splitfire, you still claim a primary target. People usually ignore that as Tau because it rarely means anything. This will be the 3rd time it does matter, the first being Shadowsun's splitfire rule and 2nd being drone blobs.

Also i guess i misunderstood the Stormsurge thing. Assuming TargetLocks spread the buffmander effects, which i doubt, the stormsurge would indeed have the benefits if he fired at the same 3 units (but not other units)

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
When you shoot at someone in the shooting phase, you make a shooting attack. The sequence for using TLs is:

1. Declare the enemy unit the TL unit is shooting at.
2. TL suits then declare what units they are going to shoot at, seperate from the rest of the unit.

The TL shots don't count as another unit shooting, which from the leak is what triggers the sharing special rule. "Any time a UNIT of the Hunter Contingent shoots..."

Is the Crisis unit firing? Yes, at the target unit. You can pile on to that unit.

Is the TL suit a UNIT firing? No, it is a model in the crisis unit allowed to choose a seperate target.

But that's the thing, an individual Crisis Suit is still part of a unit. The unit is just shooting at more than one target (like a Gargantuan Creature in a way).

As @Vineheart01 points out, it probably needs an FAQ or further clarification in the English release. There's zero mention of "primary unit" or "shooting attack" in the Target Lock rules which is what potentially breaks the way this ability works.

Good arguments though, I think I can convince my local Tau players that the trick doesn't work now and thus not get my butt handed to me so badly

Caederes wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
And for all we know they've reworded target locks in the new book. So it's still not confirmed yet, but if the way you're saying it works is true, I would never play it that way with my tau. It's powerful enough at face value, there's really no need to go digging and rules-lawyering mid-game to try and glean over 9000 status from it.

disclaimer: i know not all gamers would feel the way i do about this, but the gamers i play against are all like-minded so locally i shouldn't have any trouble with this.

See that's just the thing, for casual games it won't make a difference as no-one would play it that way and be able to maintain their gaming group. For tournaments however it could outright jack Tau up to the top spot in terms of power. I can definitely see this getting super-FAQ'd by either GW or tournament organizers really quickly if the trick works as it is stupid on so many levels.

At the very least, even if it doesn't work with Target Locks we can at least enjoy a Space Marine/Necron level codex! Will be a good challenge for my Skyhammer/Gladius, the detachment paired with a Stormsurge is going to nasty as all heck.

I can would put money on Reece and Frankie over at FLG will have it FAQ'd for their ITC rules that it would only apply for ganging up on a single unit as most likely is RAI. They dont' comprise EVERY big tournament in 40k, but lately most organized events are falling underneath their banner, and their underlying motto for any ruling or rules change they make is to help make the game more fair, balanced, and fun for all participants.

Caederes wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
When you shoot at someone in the shooting phase, you make a shooting attack. The sequence for using TLs is:

1. Declare the enemy unit the TL unit is shooting at.
2. TL suits then declare what units they are going to shoot at, seperate from the rest of the unit.

The TL shots don't count as another unit shooting, which from the leak is what triggers the sharing special rule. "Any time a UNIT of the Hunter Contingent shoots..."

Is the Crisis unit firing? Yes, at the target unit. You can pile on to that unit.

Is the TL suit a UNIT firing? No, it is a model in the crisis unit allowed to choose a seperate target.

But that's the thing, an individual Crisis Suit is still part of a unit. The unit is just shooting at more than one target (like a Gargantuan Creature in a way).

As @Vineheart01 points out, it probably needs an FAQ or further clarification in the English release. There's zero mention of "primary unit" or "shooting attack" in the Target Lock rules which is what potentially breaks the way this ability works.

Good arguments though, I think I can convince my local Tau players that the trick doesn't work now and thus not get my butt handed to me so badly

It is part of the unit, but it is not THE unit. I'm a Tau player and I wouldn't play it the way your describing. Hope you can convince your local players!

The sheer fact that he can basically give a unit the Mark of Death now is insanely beneficial on its own. Theres no way its suppose to work via targetlocks because that literally says "3 units a turn will die barring really unlucky dice"

Even if that IS the way it works, i'd never use it that way because thats just bs.

grazingshot wrote:

Caederes wrote:
The Skyfire trick should still work if you use a Coldstar though, right? It is a unit with Skyfire because of its unit type, or am I reading too much into that?

A FMC may choose to fire as skyfire, the rule for it does not say that their unit gains skyfire, just that the model does which is why it won't work.

Pretty sure it only can choose skyfire if it is gliding (is that the one where they are up in the air?)

What the gak is happening? Am I in some sort of alternate universe?

I'm really glad that our new dex basically gives the middle finger to deathstars. The bad thing is, it also gives the middle finger to everything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
What the gak is happening? Am I in some sort of alternate universe?

 Gamgee wrote:
What the gak is happening? Am I in some sort of alternate universe?

Already covered in its own thread.