Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Are they 1 time use? Wow so awesome.

The only formation I will be taking on a regular basis is the stealth cadre, because ignores cover.

jakejackjake wrote:
Are they 1 time use? Wow so awesome.

In what world will you ever need more than 4 S-D shots that will probably also be BS5 and Ignores Cover?

Player on internet gets affordable Dakka GC with D weaponry that synergizes with the rest of their army and still finds things to complain about, news at 11.

jakejackjake wrote:
Are they 1 time use? Wow so awesome.

again. lost all credibility. 1 unit being able to fire all 4, each at a different target turn 1 is crazy good.

Having army wide sharing of marker lights, sharing of all special abilities, adding +1BS for 3 units firing at the same target, 12" supportive fire, running AND shooting for all infantry, flat out and shooting for all vehicles.

Yeah, nothing new for the army right?

Not to mention the bonuses the individual formations give. Optimized Stealth Cadre? +1 BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor? yeah not good lol

The only fomration that is really good requires you buy $400 in just models... Models no one has because they just got released. The stormsurge is good. That's basically it in the whole new book. They even made the firebase a LOT worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
Are they 1 time use? Wow so awesome.

again. lost all credibility. 1 unit being able to fire all 4, each at a different target turn 1 is crazy good.

Having army wide sharing of marker lights, sharing of all special abilities, adding +1BS for 3 units firing at the same target, 12" supportive fire, running AND shooting for all infantry, flat out and shooting for all vehicles.

Yeah, nothing new for the army right?

Not to mention the bonuses the individual formations give. Optimized Stealth Cadre? +1 BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor? yeah not good lol

Those rules dont make stealth teams good and the core is INCREDIBLY expensive and you have to use three units on the same one for the bonus..... that fething terrible To be competitive still it will cost a crap load including the book. I'll probably just shelf the Tau or sell them, and start working on my DA more and imperial allies

I guess I shouldn't be surprised when a new book coming out means even someone with a 3500 pt Tau army like me needs to drop another thousand to compete in GT's

jakejackjake wrote:
Are they 1 time use? Wow so awesome.

And require a Markerlight hit to count as D, otherwise just S8.

jakejackjake wrote:
The only fomration that is really good requires you buy $400 in just models... Models no one has because they just got released. The stormsurge is good. That's basically it in the whole new book. They even made the firebase a LOT worse.

Lol wtf? The Firebase got way better. Oh no, it lost PE(Space Marines)! What a tragedy!

The Stormsurge/Ghostkeel formation is garbage anyway. Stealth Cadre is great. Firebase is great. Base formation is great. Armored Cadre is actually pretty ok especially with the Taucurion bonus.

Stop trying to find things to complain about. The book is good. Yeah it didn't get the Eldar treatment of "make everything competitive", but it sure as hell made the good things better and the new things are all quite good.

Let's see if you'll still be whining the first time you take a Hunter Contingent and smash someone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jakejackjake wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
Are they 1 time use? Wow so awesome.

again. lost all credibility. 1 unit being able to fire all 4, each at a different target turn 1 is crazy good.

Having army wide sharing of marker lights, sharing of all special abilities, adding +1BS for 3 units firing at the same target, 12" supportive fire, running AND shooting for all infantry, flat out and shooting for all vehicles.

Yeah, nothing new for the army right?

Not to mention the bonuses the individual formations give. Optimized Stealth Cadre? +1 BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor? yeah not good lol

Those rules dont make stealth teams good and the core is INCREDIBLY expensive and you have to use three units on the same one for the bonus..... that fething terrible To be competitive still it will cost a crap load including the book. I'll probably just shelf the Tau or sell them, and start working on my DA more and imperial allies

It just sounds like you want to quit Tau. Ok, but don't try to convince anyone it's because the new stuff sucks. It doesn't. You might, though.

notredameguy10 wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
Are they 1 time use? Wow so awesome.

again. lost all credibility. 1 unit being able to fire all 4, each at a different target turn 1 is crazy good.

Having army wide sharing of marker lights, sharing of all special abilities, adding +1BS for 3 units firing at the same target, 12" supportive fire, running AND shooting for all infantry, flat out and shooting for all vehicles.

Yeah, nothing new for the army right?

Not to mention the bonuses the individual formations give. Optimized Stealth Cadre? +1 BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor? yeah not good lol

I wish it was that good, it takes a lot to get those abilities to work in models, and restrictions that have to be meet. Is it terrible no, but not near on the eldar level.

Requizen wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
The only fomration that is really good requires you buy $400 in just models... Models no one has because they just got released. The stormsurge is good. That's basically it in the whole new book. They even made the firebase a LOT worse.

Lol wtf? The Firebase got way better. Oh no, it lost PE(Space Marines)! What a tragedy!

The Stormsurge/Ghostkeel formation is garbage anyway. Stealth Cadre is great. Firebase is great. Base formation is great. Armored Cadre is actually pretty ok especially with the Taucurion bonus.

Stop trying to find things to complain about. The book is good. Yeah it didn't get the Eldar treatment of "make everything competitive", but it sure as hell made the good things better and the new things are all quite good.

Let's see if you'll still be whining the first time you take a Hunter Contingent and smash someone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jakejackjake wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
Are they 1 time use? Wow so awesome.

again. lost all credibility. 1 unit being able to fire all 4, each at a different target turn 1 is crazy good.

Having army wide sharing of marker lights, sharing of all special abilities, adding +1BS for 3 units firing at the same target, 12" supportive fire, running AND shooting for all infantry, flat out and shooting for all vehicles.

Yeah, nothing new for the army right?

Not to mention the bonuses the individual formations give. Optimized Stealth Cadre? +1 BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor? yeah not good lol

Those rules dont make stealth teams good and the core is INCREDIBLY expensive and you have to use three units on the same one for the bonus..... that fething terrible To be competitive still it will cost a crap load including the book. I'll probably just shelf the Tau or sell them, and start working on my DA more and imperial allies

It just sounds like you want to quit Tau. Ok, but don't try to convince anyone it's because the new stuff sucks. It doesn't. You might, though.

How did firebase get better? You have to shoot all three units at the same thing to get the bonuses. Something I've literally never done, and the idea of doing so is incredibly wasteful. It's a MASSIVE nerf. I probably wont even field it anymore.

If you live in the north east of the states we can set up a game at some point. I'm from New Enlgand. I've lost 2 warhammer games so far now. I just don't lose at strategy games. The army wide rules are only if you combine all their shots which means you firiing multiple hundreds of points at 1 thing besides the GC who only have to fire one weapon at it

What is the benefit of being AP1 and st D? Do you get +2 to the D table?

I will admit, the Destroyer missiles DID make the Stormsurge viable, without it, it would be very... average.

jakejackjake wrote:

Requizen wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
The only fomration that is really good requires you buy $400 in just models... Models no one has because they just got released. The stormsurge is good. That's basically it in the whole new book. They even made the firebase a LOT worse.

Lol wtf? The Firebase got way better. Oh no, it lost PE(Space Marines)! What a tragedy!

The Stormsurge/Ghostkeel formation is garbage anyway. Stealth Cadre is great. Firebase is great. Base formation is great. Armored Cadre is actually pretty ok especially with the Taucurion bonus.

Stop trying to find things to complain about. The book is good. Yeah it didn't get the Eldar treatment of "make everything competitive", but it sure as hell made the good things better and the new things are all quite good.

Let's see if you'll still be whining the first time you take a Hunter Contingent and smash someone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jakejackjake wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
Are they 1 time use? Wow so awesome.

again. lost all credibility. 1 unit being able to fire all 4, each at a different target turn 1 is crazy good.

Having army wide sharing of marker lights, sharing of all special abilities, adding +1BS for 3 units firing at the same target, 12" supportive fire, running AND shooting for all infantry, flat out and shooting for all vehicles.

Yeah, nothing new for the army right?

Not to mention the bonuses the individual formations give. Optimized Stealth Cadre? +1 BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor? yeah not good lol

Those rules dont make stealth teams good and the core is INCREDIBLY expensive and you have to use three units on the same one for the bonus..... that fething terrible To be competitive still it will cost a crap load including the book. I'll probably just shelf the Tau or sell them, and start working on my DA more and imperial allies

It just sounds like you want to quit Tau. Ok, but don't try to convince anyone it's because the new stuff sucks. It doesn't. You might, though.

How did firebase get better? You have to shoot all three units at the same thing to get the bonuses. Something I've literally never done, and the idea of doing so is incredibly wasteful

It gained Monster Hunter, and in a game where Wraithknights, Daemon Princes, and Flying Hive Tyrants reign supreme (not to mention other Riptides/Stormsurges), that's pretty freaking amazing. PE(SM) was a joke.

Plus, now you don't have to take max units of Broadsides. 1 Broadside + 1 Broadside + 1 unit of 3 Riptides (who are now BS4 with Fire Team). That's much better than the old version and if you deny that you're seriously delusional.

The OSC may not do much for stealthsuits but a full team of Ghostkeels is always going to be an Ignore covers, hitting rear armor, BS 5 tank bust nightmare. Toss on CFD's to give them help against charges and that looks ugly, expensive (about 600pts) but ugly.

It's actually not even close to better. It's 160 pts more and worse anti vehicle, worse anti tank, DA bike spam(which will become really hot soon), it's literally worse against everything but tactical marines and WK's whichch were never a problem for me with Tau. and do you really want to make your 700-800 pt firebase(how much yours would be with standard equipment and 0 support systems on rips shooting at 1single unit. That's half you're list. If you think that's good YOURE delusional

shooting half your army at a big dangerous target is fine but you could potentially make 3 riptides or a riptide and 140 pts in broadsides not be able to shoot AT ALL. With the normal firebase that could never happen. It's a major difference.

AP1 and AP2 means nothing for Str D on its own. Remember though that it causes penetrating hits, not glances against a vehicle. So it greater increases the odds of explosions like any AP1 weapon. Unless you roll a 6 its entirely possible a vehicle wont be wrecked by default without the explode.

And there is no possible way the Tau got nerfed at all in this release. We literally got given the same exact codex with extra goodies, who the hell can claim that? Every release has nerfed something that made every buff meaningless (still pissed about cybork being a fething 6+ fnp....). Our formations are insane within the super formation, while i admit most of them are pretty moot on their own outside the stealth cadre and retaliation cadre.

4 one shot Str D missiles are vastly more preferred to me than a single gun that fires a single Str D every turn. Why? Simple - theyre separate guns....
Even the Wraithknight cant do this number - assuming your ML luck didnt suck balls, you can slam 4 targets with a Str D shot, or be a little more secure and hit 2 with 2 TURN ONE on top of its gakload of attacks. Vastly prefer this because i can instaspork so much crap i just dont want him to even get a chance to use (looking at you wraithknights....)

Ghostkeels have got to be the only unit in the entire damn game that actually can multitask literally on the fly. Every other unit that can multitask usually cant do it effectively or pays for it but never really uses it (which is the reason i despise any marine book). Their guns are extremely versatile, walking 2+ cover is nuts, T5 and 4W makes them durable as hell, and unless youre facing a melee star THEY CAN CHARGE - WS2 is only a flaw if you face WS5 people or people who spam weapons that pen your armor. Guess what not much fills either of those outside one or two attacks per unit in the case of marines without being considered a melee star.

Tau didnt get buffed to Eldar level of bullgak but they definitely got buffed like crazy.

Tau players that barely had enough broadsides and riptides to be competitive before and don't have money. They've got 0 chance at being competitve by the time their 8th edition book comes out.

The book isn't weak. It's douchey. Douchey because in order to compete in the most competitve meta any current Tau player is dropping around 1k and can't have the models assembled quick enough to still build a competitive list on the highest level

With marines they mostly did it with what everyone already normally owns. You might need one more tac squad and a rhino but everyone had most of the things if they played marines competitvely in 6th

I'm not arguing that a few things in it are okay... just that it's only the new models and everything existing got worse or wasn't good. If you think crisis suits are better than "good" or were in 6th chances are you dont even know what competitve means

The most competitive part of the Tau was not in their previous book though. It was the firebase and NO ONE winning GT's or even local competitions with Tau in a competitve meta will tell you otherwise.
Like I said the new units are good. Besides breachers and coldstar. Those are terribad

The wraithknight gets 2 a turn and is +2 toughness which is vastly better for like 160 less pts. I'm sorry nothing I'm hearing here is logical. The other guns is why its okay. The str D just gives it the little extra to make it good

Anyone from New England want to meet up this winter and I'll play my DA or Marines and you play a Tau list without a SS and see what happens.

Two stormsurges can be really good I would imagine. 8 D Shotss over the course of a game should be more than you need in addition to their giant shotgun of doom. By the time the missiles weaken any knights anything trying to get close to your gun of doom will likely be dead or join them in hell.

I don't think two SS is all that smart though depending on your army. You'll want one well supported one. Maybe two in a knight heavy environment.

 Gamgee wrote:
Two stormsurges can be really good I would imagine. 8 D Shotss over the course of a game should be more than you need in addition to their giant shotgun of doom. By the time the missiles weaken any knights anything trying to get close to your gun of doom will likely be dead or join them in hell.

I don't think two SS is all that smart though depending on your army. You'll want one well supported one. Maybe two in a knight heavy environment.

Yes but a single SS is only an option in a CAD from what I'm seeing

And what idiot want to deepstrike broadsides? What kind of a bonus is that?

jakejackjake wrote:
Tau players that barely had enough broadsides and riptides to be competitive before and don't have money. They've got 0 chance at being competitve by the time their 8th edition book comes out.

The book isn't weak. It's douchey. Douchey because in order to compete in the most competitve meta any current Tau player is dropping around 1k and can't have the models assembled quick enough to still build a competitive list on the highest level

With marines they mostly did it with what everyone already normally owns. You might need one more tac squad and a rhino but everyone had most of the things if they played marines competitvely in 6th

I'm not arguing that a few things in it are okay... just that it's only the new models and everything existing got worse or wasn't good. If you think crisis suits are better than "good" or were in 6th chances are you dont even know what competitve means

The most competitive part of the Tau was not in their previous book though. It was the firebase and NO ONE winning GT's or even local competitions with Tau in a competitve meta will tell you otherwise.
Like I said the new units are good. Besides breachers and coldstar. Those are terribad

The wraithknight gets 2 a turn and is 10 8 which is vastly better for like 160 less pts. I'm sorry nothing I'm hearing here is logical.

The wraithknight is widely considered the most underpriced unit in the game aside from the revenant titan. At this point, the horse you're beating isn't just dead, it's undead and is walking. You have beaten the horse so much that you made it un-die.

Anyway, you just seem pissy that the Tau haven't gotten to the Eldar level of silly OP gak.
- We know that GW is openly contemptuous of its customers
- We know the design process for a codex is an exec going "hey, update this army."
- We know that if the author does not like the army, the codex with be gak (see: Tyranid codex) or awesome (see: Eldar codex)
- We know that GW considers themselves to be a model company, not a gaming company.
- We know they're greedy as feth.

Put it all together, and you have a codex designed to promote and increase the sales of extremely expensive and over-priced models. This isn't new information. Either deal with it and keep playing the game and giving your money to GW, or STFU and quit.

Okay but it's only new for Tau. None of the other new books did this. The same good things stayed good. Meaning somewhere around a $200 investment for anyone playing competitvely on the old books as opposed to with the Tau the min is well at least 2 SS and a GK so twice that. They did the same thing to Dark Angel fluffy players with the Deathwing rule but the Deathwing werent competitve in 6th and anyone who thinks they were is nuts. An entirely deathwing army was always a quick tabling for anyone I played with just about any of my armies.

I'm glad there was an error on the site when ordering the limited editon codex because I probably won't now. It's a great release from a modeling point of view but I'm a strategy gamer and they made it clear they don't value people like me who drop 10k on the hobby. It's okay. It's the exact reason financial investors are saying not to invest long term in them, and only short term if you do so

jakejackjake wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Two stormsurges can be really good I would imagine. 8 D Shotss over the course of a game should be more than you need in addition to their giant shotgun of doom. By the time the missiles weaken any knights anything trying to get close to your gun of doom will likely be dead or join them in hell.

I don't think two SS is all that smart though depending on your army. You'll want one well supported one. Maybe two in a knight heavy environment.

Yes but a single SS is only an option in a CAD from what I'm seeing

And what idiot want to deepstrike broadsides? What kind of a bonus is that?

Huntre Cafre lets you take 1-3 units of the following: XV88, Hammerhead, Stormsurges, and/or Sniper Teams.

So yes it can take up to 9 if you have the points for them. Or as little as one.

Edit
The Broadsides have relentless. So they can move and shoot. HYMP + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle up the tailpipe of anything is going to hurt.

If you could confer a buffmanders role to multipl units shooting at different targets(i'd assume the split fire support system does not negate this) then it would be massively strong but with all the taxes not so much. You're basically taking 800pts to buff a SS. I wouldn't take broadsides with this if the firebase was the same it always was. Now it might be the best option but they were always relentless anyway if you brought tetras

They get relentless but lose tank hunter and the ability to shoot turn 1. Which is their entire strength. Removing 200--500 pts every game turn 1. They don't have that capability now. Also you just dont want half your army not able to shoot turn 1. Sure it can't be shot at but it just lets them focus down the other half while taking almost no return fire

It does mean you need less marker support though. Which could be something that help prove me wrong since you can share them in groups. It could make cover saves irrelevant but the problem is they already were to Tau so is that even a buff. Really tetras were super cheap and awesome. It just seems like you give up a ton for everything you get while the Mechanicum, DA and Marines were just giving hundred of free pts and the Eldar have big D's everywhere and more Str 6 on a jetbike base than the Tau have Str 5.

I'm pretty bullheaded though I could be completely proved wrong and thinking differently once I've gotten some games in.

The Stormsurge was tested in several games before the reveal that the Destroyer Missile could be buffed to S D. It ended up destroying large swaths of the enemy armies it faced. By attaching an Early Warning Override to it, it become an even greater threat as the Drop Pod army had no safe place to land without being dakka'd to death.

The build was Stormsurge - Pulse Driver Cannon, AFP or Flamers, Shield Generator, Early Warning Override.

 Nilok wrote:
The Stormsurge was tested in several games before the reveal that the Destroyer Missile could be buffed to S D. It ended up destroying large swaths of the enemy armies it faced. By attaching an Early Warning Override to it, it become an even greater threat as the Drop Pod army had no safe place to land without being dakka'd to death.

Again this sounds good against things the army wasn't only good at but the best at in any of the books already. I agree the SS is pretty good. But yeah I've been saying that the whole time. What I am saying is they basically were like buy SS because that's what we are giving you and the ghostkeel and nothing else. Everything else will remain for friendly games and we will now relegate the Firebase Cadre to friendly games too since all competive players already have 12 boradsides. Some of the people disagreeing have said fire warriors were a competitve unit in the current book in 7th recently in this thread though so they're I'm not sure if there is even much point discussing the strategy impact this has here

Can't you switch the flamers out? God I hope they werent bad enough not too

Uh when were Broadsides relentless? Ages ago in an old codice from what I hear.

Not last... well current book. And If I recall correctly the old Firebase didn't give them relentless either. So I have no idea what your talking about.

Whenever you used marker lights for them... They did nothing the army didn't already do in the next book besides add very costly big models. That's what I am saying

jakejackjake wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
The Stormsurge was tested in several games before the reveal that the Destroyer Missile could be buffed to S D. It ended up destroying large swaths of the enemy armies it faced. By attaching an Early Warning Override to it, it become an even greater threat as the Drop Pod army had no safe place to land without being dakka'd to death.

Again this sounds good against things the army wasn't only good at but the best at in any of the books already. I agree the SS is pretty good. But yeah I've been saying that the whole time. What I am saying is they basically were like buy SS because that's what we are giving you and the ghostkeel and nothing else. Everything else will remain for friendly games and we will now relegate the Firebase Cadre to friendly games too since all competive players already have 12 boradsides. I'm not going to argue strat with anyone who thought that a list could be competitive and have more than 10 fire warriors in it. Anyone who thought that is just not on a competitive level

Can't you switch the flamers out? God I hope they werent bad enough not too

Really? So what other unit could put down two S10 AP2 large blasts a turn on a single unit?

And yes. Flamers on the 'surge can be swapped for TL burst cannons or TL airbursting things.

No but str 9 2 ap blasts were already in every list... Like I said tthe SS is okay. Wow I have said this literally for like 20 posts now. I was the one saying it was good way earlier in the thread at the first leak when everyone else was saying it sucked. Jeezums crows you guys coooome on

jakejackjake wrote:
Whenever you used marker lights for them... They did nothing the army didn't already do in the next book besides add very costly big models. That's what I am saying

At no point in the history of the game have markerlights made broadsides relentless.

Unless you mean using MLs to increase the snap shot BS, in which case that's a waste of MLs.

 McNinja wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
Whenever you used marker lights for them... They did nothing the army didn't already do in the next book besides add very costly big models. That's what I am saying

At no point in the history of the game have markerlights made broadsides relentless.

Unless you mean using MLs to increase the snap shot BS, in which case that's a waste of MLs.

They increase their ballistic which is not a waste at all. I think I'm arguing strat with people who have no idea how to beat someone good at this game. The broadside and riptides were the only two competitve units. Using markers anywhere else before you got enough for whatever you needed on them was would be a waste. Have you people ever even look at GT lists that have won for Tau?

Where are using the marker lights? Skyrays? Not competitvie... Crisis suits... maybe if you dont need them on rips or broads... hammerheads? If you field hammerheads youre not competitve. Fire warriors? lol Stealth suits? lol The flyers? OMG

They don't what? They fething put out D shots man. D SHOTS!

This guy has GOT to be a troll. No one sane would deny the SS is now really good because of the D missiles.

Also they don't replace anything but supplement every niche of your army as well as offer D shots. Which is why you don't want too many SS too point intensive. Nothing is stopping you from fielding both an SS and tons of Broadsides and Riptides.