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@gamgee I think you actually missed the point I was making. I mean Str D being on the table period makes the game more luck based when a single lucky 6 can remove a 360 pt model. It increases the variance in low pts cost games (anytihng under save 4k) by a massive margin. One lucky shot can end the game in a tournament list. So on a long term basis still lots of skill but in a singular game the variance will be higher. I mean them moving the D over from apoc games was a great ploy to sell models but it's not good for smaller games really. It's good in the sense it's powerful it's bad in the way it impacts the variance of the game. Makes luck have a slightly larger role than it already does.

I know you missed the point because you thought I was saying the SS isn't good when all I've been saying is in the 7th ed book the army is unplayable without it

jakejackjake wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
TL mean no EWO... it also means you have to decide if you're going to shoot it at another unit or not and stick to it, because regardless you have to nominate the unit the model with TL will shoot at as well before anyone in the unit actually rolls dice. TL's are great but it means larger units to take effect making the hunter cadre super expensive.

Or you can have your BS 3 Twin-Linked, Ignore Cover missile drone(s) fire at the main target and your Broadsides shoot everything else. The loss of EWO is a loss, but it functions better on the Riptide and Stormsurge. While the loss of S7 on the Stormsurge is hard, the sheer number of S5 shot, with the options of S10 and possibly S8 and room for Skyfire and an Invulnerable save, it should be a significant threat to any AV 11 vehicles (most flyers) and any infantry.

 McNinja wrote:
So can the coldstar take additional/replace his weapons and take signature systems, or no?

No, only two support systems.

You take drones with broadsides? Did they change in the new book because anyone competitve laughed at them in 6th so not sure if you mean to talk competitve lists or cool fluffy lists The EWO amazing on broadsides. It gives you target lock where you get to decide how many models and which of their guns you want to fire. It's incredibly amazing on broadsides. It's the only support system you should really every get on them in in TE6th nothing else at all is reasonable in a TAC list... nothing

I find if I have the points, taking missile drones is a great advantage since I can use them to soak wounds for the Broadsides from low AP/ignore cover weapons while increasing their damage output. Otherwise they get focused way too fast and gutted due to their lack of invulnerable save and high target priority.

I didn't really need them for my take all comers lists, as my Riptide, Skyray, Crisis Suits, Sniper Kroot, and Fire Warriors could often hold their own with correct support and deployment. Often I found it was more advantageous to load them with Skyfire if I did take them so they could remove pesky flyers from the board without wasting my markerlights. I ended up replacing them with an ECPA HBC Riptide who then was used to swat Vendettas and Vultures out of the sky while laughing them off, eventually killing himself to an unlucky Nova Charge.

The EWO is good on Broadsides, but it is overshadowed by EWO on the Riptide, and soon the Stormsurge. Many times I've had Terminators drop in close to my castle and just get annihilated by a well placed large blast and SMS. I see no reason the Stormsurge would be any different.

Your sentences seems to be both disagreeing with me and agreeing with me about Target Locks. Perhaps you should get some sleep.

You lose 1 drone and have to take a leadership test than youre 200 pt unit runs off the board

Youre talking about playing against terminators. You don't play in a competitive meta. So it's easy for sub par things to perform against one of the worst units in the game aka terminators

jakejackjake wrote:
You lose 1 drone and have to take a leadership test than youre 200 pt unit runs off the board

Run an Ethereal in your second HQ slot and put him in a Devilfish. AV 12 that gives everyone Ld 10. If you aren't playing synergy with Tau, you are handicapping yourself.
Also, why are they so close to the edge of the board? I saw an Ork player do that with his Lootas and scared them off the edge with my railguns (4e Broadsides) and have never made that mistake.

 Nilok wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
You lose 1 drone and have to take a leadership test than youre 200 pt unit runs off the board

Run an Ethereal in your second HQ slot and put him in a Devilfish. AV 12 that gives everyone Ld 10. If you aren't playing synergy with Tau, you are handicapping yourself.

I generall just tuck him with the broadside unit or something and hide him for the entire game. I've NEVER lost an ethereal I'm really good at planning positioning and anticipating the movement in the opponents next turn. The devilfish is too many pts. I'm a very good Tau player. I understand the army. The amount of times I've lost with Tau is less then balls youve had. Missile drones are never competitve

If you're playing dawn of war deployment and are further than 12" fromt he board edge on turn 1 I have no idea what you're doing unless your opponent is going second

jakejackjake wrote:
@gamgee I think you actually missed the point I was making. I mean Str D being on the table period makes the game more luck based when a single lucky 6 can remove a 360 pt model. It increases the variance in low pts cost games (anytihng under save 4k) by a massive margin. One lucky shot can end the game in a tournament list. So on a long term basis still lots of skill but in a singular game the variance will be higher. I mean them moving the D over from apoc games was a great ploy to sell models but it's not good for smaller games really. It's good in the sense it's powerful it's bad in the way it impacts the variance of the game. Makes luck have a slightly larger role than it already does.

I know you missed the point because you thought I was saying the SS isn't good when all I've been saying is in the 7th ed book the army is unplayable without it

It kinda came across as YEAH ITS GOOD EVERYTHING IS GOOD feth THIS CODEX feth TAU.

Anyway, The retaliation cadre is really the only one I would ever use. It allows me to not only purchase the minimum models (and by models I mean gundam stand-ins), but is the most effective for what it does. I could also put Farsight in with the crisis suits and not scatter.

If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.

Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip

jakejackjake wrote:
@gamgee I think you actually missed the point I was making. I mean Str D being on the table period makes the game more luck based when a single lucky 6 can remove a 360 pt model. It increases the variance in low pts cost games (anytihng under save 4k) by a massive margin. One lucky shot can end the game in a tournament list. So on a long term basis still lots of skill but in a singular game the variance will be higher. I mean them moving the D over from apoc games was a great ploy to sell models but it's not good for smaller games really. It's good in the sense it's powerful it's bad in the way it impacts the variance of the game. Makes luck have a slightly larger role than it already does.

I know you missed the point because you thought I was saying the SS isn't good when all I've been saying is in the 7th ed book the army is unplayable without it

I'm not here to debate if it was a good idea to implement D weapons in the base version or not. I'm simply using the rules and the ITC guidelines to shape a list that's good in this meta. Also your right I did miss the point.

The thing hurting us the most in tournaments and kicking us down the rankings as a faction was deathstars and GMC/Big Things. We used to be viable before that started happening. We still had trouble with them, but they weren't so insanely powerful that our existing options weren't enough. However as time went by they were no longer enough due to power creep. So i think what this all comes down to is not the Stormsurge being necessary, but a symptom of something deeper with your argument. The SS was made and sold because it filled the only gap left in our army. We still have soft counters in the form of fusion blasters and the stealth suit formations as well.

The SS is not what ails you, it's the way they make the game and market it and have this constant power creep. That's the real thing that needs to bbe solved. Or else there will simply be another SS tomorrow for Tau instead of them sensibly trying to take a look at rules and make changes to the codex on a more broadish level. It affects every army. Not just Tau. So don't blame the SS. Blame GW and their power creep.

Also bringing D weapons is not luck. it's guaranteed damage even on a low hit that makes it through that's a lot od damage with the bonus of basically killing anything. Which is why the SS must be supported so it doesn't rely on luck. But that would be where the Commander takes cover wouldn't and has to logically think how he will finish off things the D shots have wounded. I and no one else can play for a person in that regard.

Edit
The Riptide I plan to drop won't have a Stim Injector. Doesn't need it since it's a flanker and not meant to command the board. My SS will be doing that.

 McNinja wrote:
The dude from the Dawn of War games is alive and well, facerolling with the Ghostkeels.

Thought you meant Kais from Firewarrior, 'cause that'd be quite interesting.

jakejackjake wrote:
If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.

Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip

Yup. If you choose to do so, you have to deploy the whole formation at the start of your second turn as per deep strike. So, as far as you're concerned, all that formation is good for is the Relentless is grants all of the units in it?

I wonder what you think of three ghostkeels with farsight deep striking, then assaulting

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
The dude from the Dawn of War games is alive and well, facerolling with the Ghostkeels.

Thought you meant Kais from Firewarrior, 'cause that'd be quite interesting.

According to the Relic Entertainment's developer commentary, the developers of Dark Crusade, he is the same Kais from Fire Warrior, recovered physically and mentally after killing/banishing a Greater Daemon of Tzeentchh and promoted to Shas'O. Chronologically it makes no sense, but this if 40k after all.

anyone with the new xv8 kit that could provide photos of the new sprue sets?I was curious to know if both knees and elbows are articulated or still fixed.

aracersss wrote:
anyone with the new xv8 kit that could provide photos of the new sprue sets?I was curious to know if both knees and elbows are articulated or still fixed.

Articulated. Still not worth $50, though.

 McNinja wrote:
Articulated. Still not worth $50, though.

Not the commander kit, although the sprue set shown in the gw site, show articulation on both limb joints. The xv8 one is $75 bucks ^^

aracersss wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Articulated. Still not worth $50, though.

Not the commander kit, although the sprue set shown in the gw site, show articulation on both limb joints. The xv8 one is $75 bucks ^^

My bad!

Judging from the pictures on the GW site I would have to say that they're as poseable as the commander. They look to be constructed the same way.

jakejackjake wrote:
If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.

Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip

If you want turn 2 arrival, they have to all strike. Otherwise you can pick and choose.

Of course, pairing it with a Stealth Cadre to make an all-suits two formation army gives you two infiltrating homing beacons, so you can just slam down all your units flawlessly anyhow.

 Nilok wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
The dude from the Dawn of War games is alive and well, facerolling with the Ghostkeels.

Thought you meant Kais from Firewarrior, 'cause that'd be quite interesting.

According to the Relic Entertainment's developer commentary, the developers of Dark Crusade, he is the same Kais from Fire Warrior, recovered physically and mentally after killing/banishing a Greater Daemon of Tzeentchh and promoted to Shas'O. Chronologically it makes no sense, but this if 40k after all.

Now that's actually interesting given I loved that game and book.......... tell me more

 McNinja wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.

Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip

Yup. If you choose to do so, you have to deploy the whole formation at the start of your second turn as per deep strike. So, as far as you're concerned, all that formation is good for is the Relentless is grants all of the units in it?

Crap.
Infiltration Cadre becomes more and more interesting then. A costly tax, but then I don't need to DS Riptides or Broadsides.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.

Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip

Yup. If you choose to do so, you have to deploy the whole formation at the start of your second turn as per deep strike. So, as far as you're concerned, all that formation is good for is the Relentless is grants all of the units in it?

Crap.
Infiltration Cadre becomes more and more interesting then. A costly tax, but then I don't need to DS Riptides or Broadsides.

Plus if you're going second and the enemy kills one of your units (first blood wooo) your entire army in reserve comes into play on your FIRST TURN.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Plus if you're going second and the enemy kills one of your units (first blood wooo) your entire army in reserve comes into play on your FIRST TURN.

Except that your opponent will know exactly that that would happen so he just happily lets that one crappy unit live, takes all the objectives and killing the rest of your army while you sit there hoping your stuff comes out of reserves .

Eh, assault one if his units. We're tau, if that can't kill 'em, nothing can.

MoD_Legion wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Plus if you're going second and the enemy kills one of your units (first blood wooo) your entire army in reserve comes into play on your FIRST TURN.

Except that your opponent will know exactly that that would happen so he just happily lets that one crappy unit live, takes all the objectives and killing the rest of your army while you sit there hoping your stuff comes out of reserves .

Not quite - if they kill anything from the infiltration cadre, the entire army comes in from reserves on our next turn (so turn 1 if going 2nd). The stealthsuits, piranha, and pathfinders will be the only things on the table to start so anything they try to get first blood from will trigger the SUITSTORM. If they decline to remove any of our units from the table, then on our turn 2 the retaliation cadre deep strikes in automatically - using homing beacons from the stealthsuits and recon drones so they don't scatter and mishap. I think it could really work as a null-deploy (kind of) army with a great beta-strike potential. Not to mention that any pathfinders that get 3 or more markerlight hits will cause a free s8 ap3 hit as well.

According to what I read on page 1 only the infiltration cadre will come from reserves when you kill something:

'Rules: If one unit of the formation is destroyed, rest of the formation enters from reserve next turn automatically. '

So the rest of your army still comes on turn 2 at the earliest.

notredameguy10 wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
After looking at the new book they didn't give the Tau anything they didn't have already except a Garg and even that is just Str 5 spam and low AP big blast which The entire army and riptides already did really easily. I see nothing of value and they nerfed the firebase which was literally the ONLY reason Tau could play competitively. Kind of a disappointment actually So I'm glad they won't let me get the limited edition

This does not bring the Tau to new marine or Eldar level. They're actually just in the same exact spot but with more options. The formations do not compensate for the taxes you have to take the way the marines ones do. I'm not taking 600 pts in trash to make my my one unit that doesn't suck in the formation better which is what I see in those. The gladius or Lion's blade has immediate win pontential that can clearly be seen. These do not. I don't mind being forced to take bad units but I do not see how this can be competitive.

Sorry, but you lost ALL credibility with that statement lol

Str D missiles?
2+ cover save MC?
INSANE formations sharing all special rules?
Nothing new... hahaha

yanno and new models and units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
The dude from the Dawn of War games is alive and well, facerolling with the Ghostkeels.

Thought you meant Kais from Firewarrior, 'cause that'd be quite interesting.

Was't that the theory that he became shas'o Kais after Firewarrior?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
The dude from the Dawn of War games is alive and well, facerolling with the Ghostkeels.

Thought you meant Kais from Firewarrior, 'cause that'd be quite interesting.

According to the Relic Entertainment's developer commentary, the developers of Dark Crusade, he is the same Kais from Fire Warrior, recovered physically and mentally after killing/banishing a Greater Daemon of Tzeentchh and promoted to Shas'O. Chronologically it makes no sense, but this if 40k after all.

Now that's actually interesting given I loved that game and book.......... tell me more

Sadly not much more. There is some contention about who Shas'O Kais is, as there may be two of him, Shas'o Vior'la Kais (in the Tau Codex) and Shas'la/Shas'o T'au Kais (from Fire Warrior and Dark Crusade), though this may be an error/retcon for Kais by GW.

From what I gather, Kais was able to make a recovery and become a student of Puretide shortly before his death (dates are really fuzzy here) and became one of Puretide's top three students alongside Farsight and Shadowsun, focused around a specific tactic like them. In some time before 103.999.M41, he was awakened and took the planet that would become the Fi'rios sept.

Kais specialized in using minimum resources to achieve spectacular results, similar to how he performed in Fire Warrior (with possible Chaos aid), the capture of Fi'rios, and in the Dark Crusade, being forced to both play offensive commander and bodyguard to his Ethereal. Kais was able to cripple both the Ork and Eldar forces on Kronus, and was fighting a bitter battle with the IG when a rapid strike from the Blood Ravens assassinated the Ethereal. Kais was forced to withdraw as his forces were crushed with the loss. He is one of the four surviving commanders of Kronus.

Kais is also the only commander who isn't anin the Dark Crusade as he is portrayed as a noblebright commander, in contrast the Tau commander in the next game Soulstorm, Or'es'Ka, who is very much a That Guy in the campaign and basically inspired the KX-139 Ta'unar and KV-128 Stormsurge with his "Great Strength, Great Strike" tactic.

Except that your opponent will know exactly that that would happen so he just happily lets that one crappy unit live, takes all the objectives and killing the rest of your army while you sit there hoping your stuff comes out of reserves .

That or only have members of the Infiltration Cadre on the field, it's a pretty open formation in the number of units you can field after all.

Full units of pathfinders, stealth teams, and piranhas would run you up a fair amount.

That way, your opponent can't shoot anything lest it be destroyed and you RAIN BATTLESUITS UPON HIS REGRETFUL HEAD


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MoD_Legion wrote:
According to what I read on page 1 only the infiltration cadre will come from reserves when you kill something:

'Rules: If one unit of the formation is destroyed, rest of the formation enters from reserve next turn automatically. '

So the rest of your army still comes on turn 2 at the earliest.

Not quite, the rule specifically says:

'If a unit from this Formation is completely destroyed, you can activate the Formation’s Intervention Request Beacons. If you do so, all units you have remaining in Reserve arrive at the start of your next turn (there is no need to roll for them).' (emphasis added)

Pretty clear - all of your units you have remaining in reserve come on next turn, otherwise they would've specified 'units within this formation' or suchlike.

Not that it helps the Retaliation Cadre much - it always comes on turn 2 anyway, so killing a unit from the Infiltration Cadre isn't going to do anything.

Now if you were just deepstriking a metric tonne of Riptides instead...

 Dr. Delorean wrote:


Not that it helps the Retaliation Cadre much - it always comes on turn 2 anyway, so killing a unit from the Infiltration Cadre isn't going to do anything.

Now if you were just deepstriking a metric tonne of Riptides instead...

In one instance it does matter - if the tau player is going second he could potentially get all his reserves turn 1 at the cost of losing first blood. aside from that it's going to rain suits on turn 2 with the retaliation cadre. It also means you can just take a CAD if you preferred but for a suit list the retaliation cadre is a pretty darn good formation.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:


Not that it helps the Retaliation Cadre much - it always comes on turn 2 anyway, so killing a unit from the Infiltration Cadre isn't going to do anything.

Now if you were just deepstriking a metric tonne of Riptides instead...

In one instance it does matter - if the tau player is going second he could potentially get all his reserves turn 1 at the cost of losing first blood. aside from that it's going to rain suits on turn 2 with the retaliation cadre. It also means you can just take a CAD if you preferred but for a suit list the retaliation cadre is a pretty darn good formation.

Also, you can always opt to not use the retaliation cadres turn 2 rule. They don't need to use the automatic turn 2 deep strike to gain Relentless or the +1BS.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:


Not that it helps the Retaliation Cadre much - it always comes on turn 2 anyway, so killing a unit from the Infiltration Cadre isn't going to do anything.

Now if you were just deepstriking a metric tonne of Riptides instead...

In one instance it does matter - if the tau player is going second he could potentially get all his reserves turn 1 at the cost of losing first blood. aside from that it's going to rain suits on turn 2 with the retaliation cadre. It also means you can just take a CAD if you preferred but for a suit list the retaliation cadre is a pretty darn good formation.

If this is the case, why not just put one unit on the table and if it gets destroyed, then awesome. If not, at least you don't auto-lose. Could be a very solid option to counter alpha-strike style armies.

MoD_Legion wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Plus if you're going second and the enemy kills one of your units (first blood wooo) your entire army in reserve comes into play on your FIRST TURN.

Except that your opponent will know exactly that that would happen so he just happily lets that one crappy unit live, takes all the objectives and killing the rest of your army while you sit there hoping your stuff comes out of reserves .

For the retaliation Cadre, you don't have to hope. It automatically arrives on your turn 2.