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2015/06/07 12:02:09
Subject: Re:Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
On more positive news, it looks like Diskotek Media is going to be releasing Super Dimension Century Orguss later this year ("Aiming for an end of August release (TBD).")
So I'll have a copy of the show to watch while I wait patiently for my not-Orguss models to be produced.
2015/06/07 13:01:17
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Forgive me for not slogging through that entire 19 page update, but the throwing of ND under the bus, while completely expected, is just laughable. However, the idea that they're starting over and trying to do better I think tops it for hilarity given that everything seems to be continuing on as-is. Not really showing how you're reforming your ways to improve there.
If one would like to know what recovering from a KS debacle looks like, I'd actually submit Soda Pop/Ninja Division as the example. They had Relic Knights and with the break-up with CMoN making that something of a fiasco, then they run Super Dungeon Explore: Forgotten King and pocket a comparable amount to RTT (less, but in the same ballpark) despite a lot of (justisfied) concern. Compare and contrast the updates feed for those who didn't back that project:
Now, has the campaign been flawless? Nope, they've still messed stuff up along the way. However, there was really no doubts about where things were at any point in the process, and as you can see they communicate on a schedule and with actual "stuff" even if it's just "hey, look, a card." Based on that evidence, I don't think it's hard to pinpoint the likely breakdown over here (not that most of the people reading this thread had any doubt of course).
2015/06/07 13:49:22
Subject: Re:Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
The 19 page update is unfortuantely 98% heart and 2% plan for the future despite all the obvious effort put into it. It's been said hundreds of times on the kickstarter comments that sadly Palladium does not monitor so I'll repeat it here in a bigger font to stress the completely missed point...
SHOW, DON'T TELL!!!
NMI, if you really want to help palladium then send them a link to this thread instead of locking/deleting/moving it. If they're really interested in changing the dialog with fans who are not happy whom they're supposedly addressing the update to, they should read this before and not have it pre-emptively swept under the rug.
You want to change the scale? SHOW the pledgers why the change needs to happen with actual pictures of the models that you are using to make the decision next to the current macross ones. Don't just tell us. I actually support that change with the caveat that ALL the new gen models with the scale bump are still visually at a tabletop distance (3-4ft) smaller than macross destroids and valkyries by a bit. There is nothing stopping you from using multiple scales either like 15mm for the most troublesome cyclones whereas the alphas and betas and invid get bumped only to 10mm. You've got the official RRPGT models. You've got the fan made unofficial ones at 6mm. Why didn't you just post a pic of them with a big disclaimer on the bottom about the source? If you had a reason why you couldn't (like HG not allowing posts of fan figs in official RRPGT communication) post that instead to at least indicate that it occurred to you at some point that a picture, like the old adage, is worth a thousand words.
While it is nice that you basically confirmed pledger rumor and innuendo as well as objective problems visable to almost all from two years ago, you have yet to SHOW us anything concrete regarding wave two in 19 pages of updates. Any checklist of various steps necessary for EACH AND EVERY mini to come to market posted in a hand table format that would be UPDATED EACH AND EVERY UPDATE? Updated pics SHOWING the minimal changes you could make for all those hours of work to reduce parts count compared to what was before? None of the above. This update isn't a "restart" of communication but rather just an admittedly heartfelt continuation of prior (inconsistent and infrequent) communication. It doesn't factually and objectively address ANY of the concerns for the future production that pledgers have based on the unacceptable experience of the last two years but just injects new ones. You claim that the Invid production won't affect wave 2 since someone else would be working on that but that is EXACTLY what you said about RRPGT two years ago regarding other RPG output. Do you see how that could feel like a repeat of the past rather than a restart?
If you want to truely "restart" communication with backers, the new openness in confirming openly what most of us have already known is only the first and frankly only a minor one in the grand scheme of things. The most important step is confirming without a doubt that you're willing to provide consistent and continous MEANINGFUL information about the current progress of wave 2 via objective and indisputable data (tables with actual numbers and dates) and not just the vague flowery language and occasional pie in the sky date. I didn't back a Macross kickstarter in 2013 to get Invid figures two years later while 2/3 of my sculpts are as of yet undelivered. You focused on giving us some vague info about the new stuff and NOTHING new and concrete about the much more important and massively delayed existing minis.
TL;DR: Address the current and future product and problems honestly, openly, factually, and consistently FOR SEVERAL MONTHS in a row and I will believe that Palladium AT THAT POINT wants to restart communication. That would be unprecedented for this two year post KS period and a real indication that you're restarting the conversation. This update unfortunately does NOT meet those criteria.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: Will the switch to 15mm kill the game completely, or will it 'only' kill the 6mm version?
Only the latter but only if they do it right... which given the source is unlikely.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 13:51:46
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2015/06/07 14:20:01
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Alpharius wrote: Will the switch to 15mm kill the game completely, or will it 'only' kill the 6mm version?
Well... that presumes the game, in any scale, isn't already dead. Which it certainly isn't popular, or active enough to count as one of the more popular game lines, to the best of my knowledge.
The 6mm line actually gives the models, not the game, some added life since a good number of CBT players in my area picked them up to represent the Unseen; they are not Robotech fans per se, just want to get back the original sculpts.
My feel is, if they swap scale only for SC and Invid, it's still doable because it is a problem that people can understand. But if they swap scale and insist to drag Macross into it, the backers who paid for 6mm stuff would just collectively flip table, since that invalidates their entire collection to boot. From a consumer acceptance perspective, it's pretty suicidal for a line to do that. Even offering to buy back the minis or an exchange program won't help them, and I can't see PB doing that ever. That reputation would stink up the whole line, potentially sinking SC or Invid along with Macross. So, yeah, not good prospects.
The only game system that I can recall doing that is Heavy Gear, and frankly I don't think they ever recovered from it.
Also, their game rules will probably have to rewrite and I'm not really sure it can take the rewrite.
End of day, PB's inexperience with handling tabletop wargaming just shows through.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/07 14:21:20
2015/06/07 14:48:07
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Alpharius wrote: Will the switch to 15mm kill the game completely, or will it 'only' kill the 6mm version?
Well, the Japanese price 1/100 (close to 15mm) Macross kits at around $20.. for a single form. I doubt PD would be capable of getting pricing anywhere near that for a single Valkyire.
End of day, PB's inexperience with handling tabletop wargaming just shows through.
It's a lose lose situation. They've been in the RPG business for 30 years and their "experience" shows through there as well with multiyear delays on almost every announced product and layout and art straight from the 1980's. If you have a company not willing to change because they did something right a quarter century ago, the end result is the same. In Kevin's mind, the fact that he got into the Origins RPG hall of fame yesterday for "consistently" putting out good products for 30 years just reinforces his preconceived notion that he is just awesome.;
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/07 15:13:52
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2015/06/07 15:34:27
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Sining wrote: PB just needs to run their 2nd KS already so we can all laugh even harder at them. You know it's coming
That's the day I break out 'the good stuff' and just enjoy watching a comment section tear itself to shreds.
Not that I typically wish ill upon others, I find that generally crass and crude.
But I'm not above a little schadenfreude, and that thing will be a mess of their own making.
Seriously, whomever moderates that thing will deserve a civilian commendation of some sort and to be allowed to put whatever time they spend doing so towards time served for any indictable offenses they may ever commit.
It's going to be bad.
2015/06/07 16:00:20
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
As I said in the past (and got suspended for 3 months at the palladium forums for), I will pledge $1.00 on the next KS simply to post my thoughts for years to come.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2015/06/07 16:08:07
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
A cursory Google search is saying that they made the move in the 2000's, 10+ years? Maybe 15? I'm not a WHF/40K player so that's just what the interwebz have to say.
2015/06/07 16:12:39
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Forar wrote: A cursory Google search is saying that they made the move in the 2000's, 10+ years? Maybe 15? I'm not a WHF/40K player so that's just what the interwebz have to say.
They've been making polystyrene plastic kits since the 1980's but obviously the quality and design creation method has improved since then... except.. you know for Robotech kits in the 1/200-1/285 scale.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2015/06/07 16:15:17
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Has anyone watched the open house RRPGT tourney coverage posted on youtube? In catching up with comments on various places, I found a link and the excitement is palpable in the first few minutes I've been watching so far.
Also, why did the guy purposefully attach the fisheye lens? I keep thinking the beasty boys will start playing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/07 16:19:29
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2015/06/07 17:08:02
Subject: Re:Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Does anyone remember the days it only took a half page to say "I'm a control freak, so I trashed the freelancer stuff and redid everything myself, blah, blah, blah". But, I guess becouse he already has the cash he felt he should add more pages this time.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
2015/06/07 18:04:21
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Interesting to read. Seems a little tone deaf, but certainly some good lessons in there to learn if you're going to run your own KS. When I was trying to bring a game to market I got a lot of offers to manufacture in China, and I'm glad I gave up on the idea rather than trying to run with it in China; reading that was pretty much what I expected to happen.
2015/06/07 18:40:51
Subject: Re:Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Palladium Books is an established company. Not some fly-by-night startup. We have been creating and publishing role-playing games since 1981. That’s 34 years, folks, and we have no intention of going away.
Yeah, ya'll are about as relevant and established as Radio Shack.
Lynx7725 wrote: End of day, PB's inexperience with handling tabletop wargaming just shows through.
It's a lose lose situation. They've been in the RPG business for 30 years and their "experience" shows through there as well with multiyear delays on almost every announced product and layout and art straight from the 1980's. If you have a company not willing to change because they did something right a quarter century ago, the end result is the same.
Getting really not funny how all of these small companies trying to put out miniature games can't see that touting their years of experience, while consistently having repeating boneheaded mistakes during that history, comes off as the exact opposite of what point they were trying to reinforce.
Because they make a point to say how they've been in business for decades, yet: - Expected to have another company handle all of the heavy lifting? - Expected not to have to educate themselves on international production, shipping, transloading, reshipping, etc etc etc? - Expected there would be no shortfalls after estimating total costs "for the game we wanted to make" approaching a million USD? - Expected considerably less response while possessing the attitude of having been the "sole purveyor" of Robotech to the masses for decades? - Expected there would be no delays whatsoever, that everything would go off as planned despite having done almost none of the detail planning themselves?
paulson games wrote: So he was apparently the unsung champion of low piece count models, yet we have how many parts on each model?
Lynx7725 wrote: 3. The whole sordid tale about the 3D file formats issue sounds more like somebody leading either ND, PB or both around by the nose. Something stinks in there, really.
I've noticed with some other kickstarters that the same excuse keeps getting trotted out: how can the company winning the bid to make the molds never once have mentioned during the lead-up process to manufacture what format would have to be used for the model render(s)? Or that no one at all ever stopped to ask about how everything would fit together once said models(s) were made from said mold(s) made from said render(s). This seems like exactly the kind of hand-holding that should occur during negotiations and whatnot before anything else gets decided, as part of seeking out that manufacturing capability in the first place.
NMI wrote:This topic, for now, will not be locked as the original poster was relatively "constructive". This status could change depending on how others comment on this topic.
sheesh, FFS, the immediate response is "I won't modhammer this, yet."?
Unutterably lame. Just because KS et al decided to post almost nothing at all of consequence in a supposed appeal to their constantly shafted backers after more months of platitudes doesn't mean folks have to actually believe any of the vaporware as if it were some sort of gospel.
_
People will notice the change in your attitude towards them but won't notice their behavior that made you change.- unknown webism
"The problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it. The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!" - Professor Brian Cox, March 24, 2011
_ _
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 18:45:57
2015/06/07 18:42:02
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Nomeny wrote: Interesting to read. Seems a little tone deaf, but certainly some good lessons in there to learn if you're going to run your own KS. When I was trying to bring a game to market I got a lot of offers to manufacture in China, and I'm glad I gave up on the idea rather than trying to run with it in China; reading that was pretty much what I expected to happen.
This part is where PB gets a bit of sympathy from me. It's obvious from reading that there is a dearth of plastics and 3D modeling experience within the management; they were talking about things that are very obviously outdated or inaccurate. This isn't a problem that's unquie to PB, it's an old outsourcing problem, and one that they likely never encountered before.
Without knowing all the details, it smells of someone being led around by the nose by somebody else. Whether that someone is PB or ND or both is largely irrelevant (but would be hugely comical to know). At the end of the day, it's a crappy situation, and their hang-tough attitude to get product of whatever quality out really didn't help the situation. The whole gang really should have done their research better -- they basically just jumped blind. The kicker in the whole sad sod? They didn't even know they jumped blind, nor I suspect they learnt just how blind they were. Trusting folks, those...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Smilodon_UP wrote: I've noticed with some other kickstarters that the same excuse keeps getting trotted out: how can the company winning the bid to make the molds never once have mentioned during the lead-up process to manufacture what format would have to be used for the model render(s)? Or that no one at all ever stopped to ask about how everything would fit together once said models(s) were made from said mold(s) made from said render(s). This seems like exactly the kind of hand-holding that should occur during negotiations and whatnot before anything else gets decided, as part of seeking out that manufacturing capability in the first place.
The way I understand things -- not that I'm an expert by any means -- is that file formats should not be that big a concern. Firstly, a lot of free modeling software already support exporting in multiple formats; secondly, a lot of these also have converters which may not do a great job, but should keep the problems smaller. The parties involved of course should still lock down the exchange parameters, as good practice.
Additionally, for a manufacturer to have to specify a very narrow range of formats it can take, implies a few things... firstly, either the original modelers did stuff in some weird ass piece of software that is not widely supported, or the manufacturers are so small time that they don't have the IT specialists to smooth over these issues. Either is a big problem in this kind of project, because the former means your IP is intrinsically locked up with a piece of software, the latter meaning your manufacturer may not have enough expertise to pull this off anyway.
And of course since this all went through somebody absolutely failed in the procurement and project management aspects. But we know that already.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 18:51:53
2015/06/07 19:05:46
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
I am not going to add to anything to what has already been said about the "It was not me , it was him" sobstory.
However, if KS is really set on a scale change who has he been talking to?The jump tp 15mm which would seem to be his preference would mean high price single kits to sell and what are the cast in pewter (collectors only apply here) REsin possible but again high selling point. Plastic well it will need either a lottery win or the KS route tp get the cash for these - anyone paying this time around.
I am really sorry that KS might think he is the messiah, but he cannot walk on water or save this now
2015/06/07 19:34:53
Subject: Re:Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Manchu wrote: I don't think Kevin has effectively re-started the conversation. This is a continuation of the same old blame game.
Yup.
As I was reading it, the whole time, I'm going WTF? Nobody at PB has the slightest clue or is responsible for the mess that has their name all over it?
Literally. But they don't get that and never have. They are sadly typical that way. In charge of everything, responsible for nothing.
2015/06/07 20:14:36
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
The stated size of the later series mecha has always seemed small to me, or rather the 1st war stuff was stated to be to large. Some of the screen shots have hands, as compared to a person, similar in size as the earlier units.
I am not worried about a larger size for 2nd and 3rd war stuff as the 1st war stuff. It will make the models a little larger, but they will still be tiny comparatively.
All the worlds a joke and the people merely punchlines
2015/06/07 21:13:24
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
That was quite the load of gak, even by Palladium's standards. Taking up two full updates to say almost nothing important, except blame others again...
So despite 'maybe' being six months out, where are the pictures and renders of this mythical wave 2 that we've seen nothing of, except the ugly, half a@@ed stuff you showed off a few months ago? I guess that has to be enough 'mouthwater' to hold us over until whenever....
To all those expecting an upscale to Macross to the already all but decided plan to make future chapters a bigger scale, it may not be possible. Remember, this already had to be RPG Tactics just so they were game pieces and not toys...Who knows what evil lurks in the license from the Harmony Gold overlords, but there is no doubt a limit on what they can do before they are not game pieces and not covered by license any more.
My level of care has sunk to a barely registrable point anyway now. They can make whatever models they want in whatever size they feel like, or change the rules - I won't be buying any regardless...
2015/06/07 21:19:11
Subject: Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Fun fact, it's been 99 days since the last tangible Wave Two info.
Gonna roll over into that big 100+, and hell, we'll be lucky if they drop Actual Info in less than 2 weeks.
Edit: oh, and Gencon is in 51 days, and we all know that weeks will just disappear as they commit to working super duper extra mega hard on prepping for that!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/07 21:20:06
2015/06/07 21:27:58
Subject: Re:Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
Not a "restart" it is a "rehash".
Nothing new, really, absolutely nothing at all other than much admitting to things we pretty much figured out.
STILL NO CONCRETE NOTES ON WAVE 2 STATUS OR PROGRESS.
The months shall continue to stack-up of nothing to say other than the anticipated hope of before Chirstmas with no promises since they are gun-shy of keeping them.
The rewriting history of being so sure of so many issues is a nice touch by Kevin of allowing himself to go against his better judgement.. sheesh!
They really want to say that ND was little more than a KS decorator to make it look good but no actual work toward product after funding was the intent?
What kind of contracts do these guys make with all their hired out help for the RPG stuff?
Really? I am pretty sure I am being told an untruth here.
GHQ is going to be another ND, the partnership may turn to be interesting, I am sure we will hear much of the long model vetting process.
Well of course if you are bothered by anything official then getting the models with their cards is important .
It is funny the cost fooling around PB is doing with a products already being sold.
Notice they said multiple times to buy now or pay more later... daddy needs more money for the sculpting and tooling costs.
I would love to know who owns the molds when all this is done, I mean for the metal offerings.
So, a whole ton of excuses, pleading for understanding and forgiveness.
I cannot accept a "sorry" when someone pulls the same BS again and again, they really are not all that sorry.
I feel I am being lied to, or facing hopeful revisionist history (same thing) and how much is completely dependent how how dumb they claim to be is true.
I am a bit heated because nothing here has changed after pages of what is literally garbage.
W2orSTFU.
I am so looking forward to another kickstarter.
They will get $1 from me, not a cent more.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2015/06/07 21:44:23
Subject: Re:Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
#1. Scale, PB does not know which way to go and there is a lot of people throwing opinions out there. If you want to be heard please vote on the FB page so that PB does not just pick up the squeakiest wheel and run with it.
#2. ND and PB, yes PB feels like ND was not up front. Yes, they felt like ND was going to do more. Yes, ND could have done a lot of things better like the freaking squadron cards.
#3. #2 should never have happened. PB SHOULD have done some research and asked some questions and had it down EXACTLY who was going to do what and to what point. That is what likely soured things. PB assumed ND was going to do more and it was not part of the deal as far as ND was concerned. It was caused by a serious lack of communication between the two. There is NO excuse to later say, "Whoops! We thought they were going to do more!" I think that is pretty bad. Now I understand that some of this is new and that they have less experience. It was ND that pushed for China and all BUT PB and ND should have had the squared away before the first signature on any contract was signed.
#4. OK, we get that this is something new for PB and that many other KS's face the same problems BUT this is something that should have been shared over a year ago.
#5. More info and details on wave 2 should have been in this update as well as what and if any changes were or are going to be made on the Lancer.
Basically they are trying to get us to consider opening up the purse strings to them again.
Not a single thing in that massive wall of text they put out gives any compelling argument to send any money their way that had not been said before and failed.
Yes, nice they are confused on scale but guess what? You can tell from the writing KS has already decided on 15mm, the illusion of choice is being presented like the Gencon vote.
Mike1975: I respect what you have done for this game to this point but PB has messed this so beyond giving any kind of benefit of doubt. It is going from a leap of faith to being a sucker in short order.
Done.
Want my stuff.
No facts given, assuming the worst on Wave2.
GHQ may get money from me at some point but none for PB if I can help it.
Just the witching hour of releasing the big document from PB shows KS still up to his usual habits so forget it.
No start over: they have not, why should we?
Those double standard fools.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2015/06/07 22:01:48
Subject: Re:Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion
If they're smart they'll make sure it's someplace that doesn't have comments. I think that the open nature of the kickstarter comments came as a big surprise to PB. PB seems to prefer the near police state of their own forums.
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
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