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 paulson games wrote:
I have my own cyclones and invid Not going to post them though as they might be confused with Palladiums stuff again, my macross sculpts that Maz painted still keep popping up in RRT threads as an example of RRT minis lol. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up for Mospeada,

What scale did you choose for the Mospeada stuff?

 Mike1975 wrote:
Guys, I am soliciting some help. I want some 6mm and 10mm infantry and stuff if you have them in some pics next to some RRT stuff.. Also if you have pics of some of the blobs that are the 3D Printed stuff that you can add that would be great. I think that part of the issue is the misconception of the detail that 6mm infantry can have due to the horrible 3D ones that have been made.

These are 6mm Space Marines. Although I think those are smaller than the shown 6mm Cyclones.



Here you can see a lot of modern 6mm 1 piece sculpts:

http://www.onslaughtmini.com/

By way of example:

Mostly 10mm. Although I've also been toying with some 1/48 invid and cyclones as they are pretty close in size to 25-28mm gaming models. I'd use them for a skirmish game rather than mass battles. Doing the Alphas and Betas in that scale gets really expensive to print so I've held off on those plus they don't really fit into a skirmish game as it'd be like bringing in a titan.

 paulson games wrote:
Mostly 10mm. Although I've also been toying with some 1/48 invid and cyclones as they are pretty close in size to 25-28mm gaming models. I'd use them for a skirmish game rather than mass battles. Doing the Alphas and Betas in that scale gets really expensive to print so I've held off on those plus they don't really fit into a skirmish game as it'd be like bringing in a titan.

You're one step ahead of palladium yet again. They're apparently considering the 15mm scale for a possible upcoming skirmish game.. because.. you know.. there are so many skirmish games at 15mm out there. They're stepping into a very similar pile of crap (but this one curls to the left!) by not considering the ramifications of that scale. If the focus of the skirmish game is on cyclones and infantry with some bigger things as showpiece items you take one of (like TAGs in infinity), I don't see 15mm as the best choice. 15mm is solidly a mass battle scale for obvious reasons. If they wanted to do a mass battle game at 15mm, they should have considered that 2-3 years ago instead. I would have backed that as well. From a quick size comparison check, 15mm matches up closely to the 1/100 toys out there. If they switch at this point, I'll just buy those VF-1s for my skirmish fix. My local store can order crap like that so they'll get a cut.. harmony gold will get their pound of flesh... and I get fully painted and poseable minis that transform with less effort necessary then with even X-wing. It's a win-win-win situation for everyone!...except Palladium.

So it'll be like Battlefront getting the lunch eaten by PSC, but on day one.

I guess Palladium's smokescreen has been most successful, seeing all the discussion of scale here, when wave 2 and its MIA status is the only thing that really matters. I see notorious sell out Bad Syntax has returned to haunt some of the Kickstarter upstate discussions, too.

We need a Cato, to remind Palladium that Wave 2 must be produced in the same way that "Carthago delenda est!"

 totalfailure wrote:
I guess Palladium's smokescreen has been most successful, seeing all the discussion of scale here, when wave 2 and its MIA status is the only thing that really matters. I see notorious sell out Bad Syntax has returned to haunt some of the Kickstarter upstate discussions, too.

The (possible) difference is that we *might* be able to sway them away from the wrong course with the scale debacle whereas Wave 2 is frankly out of our hands. Whatever it is that they're doing or not doing with it, we have no real power to effect change.

We could at least get PB to tell us WTF they're doing with Wave 2.

Whether they have substantially reduced parts count a la Kevin's plan from the beginning. Whether the detail is comparable to what was previously shared. Etc.

We could demand that they show that it's not all smoke, with some production models. Maybe even get a pro to assemble them.

As others have stated the most disappointing thing was the complete lack of anything useful regarding Wave 2. I want my super veritechs!!!

That being said, one thing I haven't seen discussed is whether they intended to have the three generations interact in the game. In other words, would 200pts of Destroids be able to match against 200pts of Robotech Masters or 200pts of Invid? As a long time Flames of War tournament player the three eras Battlefront divided WWII into do not interact with one another (not because of scale, its all 15mm).

I think people assumed the three Generations would work together, but if the plan was never to have them compatible with one another then the scale doesn't matter at all. In my opinion this is largely meaningless till I see Wave two at my house.

The plan as advertised before they took our money was to have all three eras compatible both in rules and scale so you could have games where a faction from one fights a faction from another like zentraedi vs southern cross. The "questions" they're posing now is to change both the scale and the rules to be not compatible (going from a 6mm mass battle game to a 15mm skirmish game). They already have our money and it isn't convienent anymore for them to follow through on their promises apparently yet again.

 Fireflyjmh wrote:

That being said, one thing I haven't seen discussed is whether they intended to have the three generations interact in the game. In other words, would 200pts of Destroids be able to match against 200pts of Robotech Masters or 200pts of Invid? As a long time Flames of War tournament player the three eras Battlefront divided WWII into do not interact with one another (not because of scale, its all 15mm).

I think people assumed the three Generations would work together, but if the plan was never to have them compatible with one another then the scale doesn't matter at all. In my opinion this is largely meaningless till I see Wave two at my house.

In the Update Kevin specifically mentioned Zent vs. Invid battles. That's pretty much cross-generation. And if they really don't intend the generations to be at least compatible, then the issue of 6mm vs. 15mm that Kevin raised in his update won't really be relevant to bring up.

(Of course, that's purporting that PB has a overall product plan, which we know is pretty much a fallacy...)

TBH if PB wants to run RRT as an RPG supplement then run it as a supplement. If they want to smokescreen it while doing it as a wargame to avoid licensing issues then there are better ways to do it. Trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole just leads to a lot of bruising.

 Fireflyjmh wrote:
As others have stated the most disappointing thing was the complete lack of anything useful regarding Wave 2. I want my super veritechs!!!

That being said, one thing I haven't seen discussed is whether they intended to have the three generations interact in the game. In other words, would 200pts of Destroids be able to match against 200pts of Robotech Masters or 200pts of Invid? As a long time Flames of War tournament player the three eras Battlefront divided WWII into do not interact with one another (not because of scale, its all 15mm).

I think people assumed the three Generations would work together, but if the plan was never to have them compatible with one another then the scale doesn't matter at all. In my opinion this is largely meaningless till I see Wave two at my house.

Why would anyone on their right mind do 200 points for one faction in a game be worth more or less than 200 for another faction? Where did that come from?

Besides, if you want to test anything I have some rules already done based on the RPG stats just like what we already know and you can look at those anytime. Link is on my sig.

 Lynx7725 wrote:

 Fireflyjmh wrote:

That being said, one thing I haven't seen discussed is whether they intended to have the three generations interact in the game. In other words, would 200pts of Destroids be able to match against 200pts of Robotech Masters or 200pts of Invid? As a long time Flames of War tournament player the three eras Battlefront divided WWII into do not interact with one another (not because of scale, its all 15mm).

I think people assumed the three Generations would work together, but if the plan was never to have them compatible with one another then the scale doesn't matter at all. In my opinion this is largely meaningless till I see Wave two at my house.

In the Update Kevin specifically mentioned Zent vs. Invid battles. That's pretty much cross-generation. And if they really don't intend the generations to be at least compatible, then the issue of 6mm vs. 15mm that Kevin raised in his update won't really be relevant to bring up.

(Of course, that's purporting that PB has a overall product plan, which we know is pretty much a fallacy...)

TBH if PB wants to run RRT as an RPG supplement then run it as a supplement. If they want to smokescreen it while doing it as a wargame to avoid licensing issues then there are better ways to do it. Trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole just leads to a lot of bruising.

I think with all the cheap 3D printed, less than 1cm high, cyclones and more that he has seen, done by people in their basements, has gone to his head and he does not realize that there is a leap in quality from something like that and something a good 6mm modeler can do.....

What would something like this make you think?

Vs these with a better paint job, which are better quality 3D vs something GHQ might make.....

 Mike1975 wrote:

I think with all the cheap 3D printed, less than 1cm high, cyclones and more that he has seen, done by people in their basements, has gone to his head and he does not realize that there is a leap in quality from something like that and something a good 6mm modeler can do.....

What would something like this make you think?

I work with enough small scale to know what's possible.. both FoW infantry and HGB infantry are great at 10mm/ 15mm. 6mm isn't great for infantry sculpt, but nobody is expecting great art pieces of infantry at 6mm. It's physically difficult to do and individual unit perfection is not the point of that scale -- sweeping epic battle scenes is. Even with the best 6mm sculptor/ modeler, caster and artist on the case, there's a point where 6mm just doesn't have the physical resolution to do anything.

Thing is, I take up 6mm when I want to see whole companies slug each other across the table. Not to ooh and ahh over details of infantry at that scale. (Mecha maybe, but infantry?) Yes, good companies can squeeze very good infantry sculpts at 6mm, but that's not the point for me...

It's just frustrating. 6mm is good for what they have now (Macross) and has great potential for the other series -- and I'm fine with sliding scale or fudging things a bit. The argument they are putting across is just bad though. Southern Cross doesn't really have a problem with 6mm, we might gain a bit to go to 10mm but 15mm is just creating issues. The problem with New Generations at 6mm is really only the Cyclone, and going 15mm will create issues with other mecha. So why shoot the two whole ranges just because you got one unit that breaks things? Conventional wisdom say to find a way to deal with that outlier. If they really can't find a good way to balance things, then I'm ok with different scale for just the Cyclones, but keep everything else the same.

On top of that, we've already seen arguments here that the RRT ruleset right now doesn't deal well with the guerrilla warfare shown in New Generations. Instead of trying to ram this peg into that hole the hard way, it's better IMO just to spawn off a new line in the distant future with minis in the right scale to do guerrilla warfare justice. My feel, 15mm or 28mm, preference going to 28mm simply for compatibility across systems. 15mm is a possibility because you might want to do slightly "bigger" Zent vs. Invid fights, but I think it's simply better to concentrate on the triumvirate of REF survivors, Invids and Human post-apocalpyse gangers.

 Lynx7725 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

I think with all the cheap 3D printed, less than 1cm high, cyclones and more that he has seen, done by people in their basements, has gone to his head and he does not realize that there is a leap in quality from something like that and something a good 6mm modeler can do.....

What would something like this make you think?

I work with enough small scale to know what's possible.. both FoW infantry and HGB infantry are great at 10mm/ 15mm. 6mm isn't great for infantry sculpt, but nobody is expecting great art pieces of infantry at 6mm. It's physically difficult to do and individual unit perfection is not the point of that scale -- sweeping epic battle scenes is. Even with the best 6mm sculptor/ modeler, caster and artist on the case, there's a point where 6mm just doesn't have the physical resolution to do anything.

Thing is, I take up 6mm when I want to see whole companies slug each other across the table. Not to ooh and ahh over details of infantry at that scale. (Mecha maybe, but infantry?) Yes, good companies can squeeze very good infantry sculpts at 6mm, but that's not the point for me...

It's just frustrating. 6mm is good for what they have now (Macross) and has great potential for the other series -- and I'm fine with sliding scale or fudging things a bit. The argument they are putting across is just bad though. Southern Cross doesn't really have a problem with 6mm, we might gain a bit to go to 10mm but 15mm is just creating issues. The problem with New Generations at 6mm is really only the Cyclone, and going 15mm will create issues with other mecha. So why shoot the two whole ranges just because you got one unit that breaks things? Conventional wisdom say to find a way to deal with that outlier. If they really can't find a good way to balance things, then I'm ok with different scale for just the Cyclones, but keep everything else the same.

On top of that, we've already seen arguments here that the RRT ruleset right now doesn't deal well with the guerrilla warfare shown in New Generations. Instead of trying to ram this peg into that hole the hard way, it's better IMO just to spawn off a new line in the distant future with minis in the right scale to do guerrilla warfare justice. My feel, 15mm or 28mm, preference going to 28mm simply for compatibility across systems. 15mm is a possibility because you might want to do slightly "bigger" Zent vs. Invid fights, but I think it's simply better to concentrate on the triumvirate of REF survivors, Invids and Human post-apocalpyse gangers.

On that we do agree, RRT is not designed for Skirmish level battles and it would be stupid to change to 15mm and expect large scale battles with minis that will now cost 3x as much and not fit as well on the table

Mike, the problem is, we know Kevin would go with the cheap stuff - because, well, that means they get to keep more money.

An irony I just realised is that we are talking about how to make infantry work in RRT for 6mm (1/285), when there is already a precedent... in Battletech and their battle armour, a game which had to redo a good portion of their original Mech lineup precisely because of HG Robotech shenanigans.

CBT Battle armour would actually be very close to Cyclone, at least the slimmer ones. Anybody has pics of CBT battle armour squads against old Unseen Warhammers, Riflemans, etc? That'd actually be a solid pic for comparison purposes. Perhaps PB can approach Ironwind to see how it's done.

 Stormonu wrote:
Mike, the problem is, we know Kevin would go with the cheap stuff - because, well, that means they get to keep more money.

Which is actually to our advantage here. Doing 15mm means a higher selling price but also a MUCH bigger investment in setting up the molds, designing the minis etc. There is a good reason 15mm minis are more expensive. Now you are talking $2 per cyclone going to $15 or more per pair of them.

 Lynx7725 wrote:
An irony I just realised is that we are talking about how to make infantry work in RRT for 6mm (1/285), when there is already a precedent... in Battletech and their battle armour, a game which had to redo a good portion of their original Mech lineup precisely because of HG Robotech shenanigans.

CBT Battle armour would actually be very close to Cyclone, at least the slimmer ones. Anybody has pics of CBT battle armour squads against old Unseen Warhammers, Riflemans, etc? That'd actually be a solid pic for comparison purposes. Perhaps PB can approach Ironwind to see how it's done.

Yes we do....

 Mike1975 wrote:
Yes we do....

Those Battle Armors are from the Mechwarrior clicky game, which is 1/144 IIRC (12mm), about double the size of the CBT ones. The SMs are 6mm, though.

Yeah, I bought a ton of the Clicky tech ones to make cyclones with.

 Mike1975 wrote:
On that we do agree, RRT is not designed for Skirmish level battles and it would be stupid to change to 15mm and expect large scale battles with minis that will now cost 3x as much and not fit as well on the table

Have you actually tried recently (since the game actually released) using the old skirmish army rules? I of course don't mean the watered down crap that made it into the rulebook. It seems like it would work just as well for a skirmish game with mecha at that scale who just want to fit the gameplay in under an hour. I agree that it doesn't make sense at all for a 6mm infantry centric skirmish game though but if your "standard" unit that you're basing the game around is a 40ft tall robot then I think it works fine (or at least as fine as the normal rules do). Do things die quickly? Sure.. but I don't think most folks want to spend 2-4 hours playing a skirmish scenario. My biggest experience with skirmish games was the old D&D prepainted minis and Star Wars minis and it was quite nice to set up, play, and be at the next game table in 60-90 minutes.



I think the grey models on a rectangular bar 2nd to the left on the bottom pic are 40k epic space marines but I'm not sure about the rest. Are the bikes and the power armor guys with heavy gear style double pipe backpacks all from mechyclix? If they are mechyclix, I think that size for cyclones would be perfect for a mass battle game whereas the space marines are a bit too small for my tastes. Can you customize each cyclone to "mouthwatering" detail? No, but they're detailed (and probably would be even more detailed with normal plastic instead of PVC) one piece minis that you can see what they are at a glance and the massive size difference is still evident immediately at a glance even though they're likely 50%-80% larger than they should be at 6mm. You should post that over on the palladium forums where we know at least one employee is occasionally watching.

Oh, and who ever Kryptt is here on dakka, fanfriend-dom doesn't work that way! You can't declare yourself one but instead have to be chosen by the Siembiedassiah.

Yeah, Clickytech Purifiers in grey and red
40k Imp Jump Troops in the group of 5 in the middle
The bikes are also 40k Imperials

Thanks for the clarification. Have you tried to use the old skirmish rules as posted during the KS or has anyone else reading the thread? I'm curious to see how that would go with the same rules except army creation. IIRC, you skip the core card and pick a support card to start with and add the special and second support as needed/wanted. It makes for smaller squads and I'm curious to see if it plays in around an hour or so. I guess you could try to make the same thing by just using a single core card with all the fixings instead but you'd end up with larger squads (with whatever ramifications that has) as well as less "fancy" upgrade models.

Also, for those who have assembled veritechs, are the arms for guardian mode and battloid mode interchangeable? Is there a point or are the poses pretty much the same for both?

I have not used the "Official" skirmish rules since they were flawed. Can't remember if it was fixed later. Instead of just 2 squad cards I had played with less and 100 points and using squads only. No squadrons. Worked out pretty well. You just get a lot less Command Points in since you won't have VF-1J's. Then I made my own VF-1J squad card and it worked out fine.

I'm just gonna put this out there...

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2015/06/crowdfunding-project-creator-settles-ftc-charges-deception

Anybody want to share this with PB?

Maybe they should!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
We could at least get PB to tell us WTF they're doing with Wave 2.

What part of any of this makes you think that, the is a real question. As up till now they have proven this false.

Ah, thanks. I took a peek again at your rules linked in your sig. They look to be a very useful resource so thanks. I may attempt to build some valkyries next week as my tau project has stalled due to a lack of bits parts online that I need for the past week.

I know the supers aren't out yet as models but have you tried out the Super VF-1R full squad? I'm not sure if it is just a waste of points (and precious parts) or if that extra MDC and speed is worth all the points. With two supers supposedly coming in 20XX and another two super parts in the VF-1D add on I should be able to make a full squad since they're all just a head swap. That would make a nice "elite" unit to field that plays noticeably differently than normal and even other super veritechs.