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 warboss wrote:
It is such a basic part of a wargame

I think that's the nub of the issue. IME (even recently with Ronin) it is not uncommon for writers to neglect to spell out some principles because they are, to the writer self evident. I reckon it's a symptom of under-editing.

Best I can tell is page 14 second paragraph giving an example of activating a squadron and firing on a unit of Regults in any order.
Then in the next paragraph it states when all mecha in the squadron has completed all four steps the squadron's activation is over.
Step 3 in page 15 seems to indicate other mechs in the squadron do hand to hand while others attack at range in the same combat step.

Not well and clearly spelled out but appears all models from the same squadron execute their action in that step before the next step can happen.

Made sense or maintaining a close formation would be impossible.

Everyone in squadron activates, moves, fires, then HTH, then Resolution, then next squadron activates.

I think this sentence is the best evidence for all models in a unit completing the current step before any models in the unit can move on to the next step:

... once you are done with the squadron during a given step, you can't go back to a previous step of the Activation to use a mecha which didn't utilize all of its options during that step.

I think the only way this sentence can work is if all models do Step 1 then all models do Step 2 and so forth.

 Talizvar wrote:
Best I can tell is page 14 second paragraph giving an example of activating a squadron and firing on a unit of Regults in any order.
Then in the next paragraph it states when all mecha in the squadron has completed all four steps the squadron's activation is over.
Step 3 in page 15 seems to indicate other mechs in the squadron do hand to hand while others attack at range in the same combat step.

Not well and clearly spelled out but appears all models from the same squadron execute their action in that step before the next step can happen.

Made sense or maintaining a close formation would be impossible.

True, that is a good catch about the close formation and it jives with the text. That paragraph is also the one I referred to earlier as it says you "activate a squadron of valkyries, moves, then fires on a squadron of regults". That seems to be the only example. I didn't look at every diagram but none of the graphical or text examples or rules I saw involve multiple squadron targetting.

That works too Manchu!

Mike: Direct rules as written was requested, because we are crazy tabletop RAW lawyers.
<edit> Wait a minute, there is no "then" hand to hand... do I get my 40k assault phase too?!

 Manchu wrote:
I think this sentence is the best evidence for all models in a unit completing the current step before any models in the unit can move on to the next step:

... once you are done with the squadron during a given step, you can't go back to a previous step of the Activation to use a mecha which didn't utilize all of its options during that step.

I think the only way this sentence can work is if all models do Step 1 then all models do Step 2 and so forth.

And more proof. Thanks for clearing it up. I posted the quote for targeting (which seems to hint at squadron to squadron targeting) in the half post above replying to talizvar. If you find anything on that question, it would be much appreciated but it sounds like you didn't earlier either.


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Lol, I checked the thread and there was a single reply on my screen.. so I posted and then added another bit for a ninja reply only to have that one ninja'd by a third. Did a robotech bus just let out in front of dakka?

Manchu wrote:

 warboss wrote:
It is such a basic part of a wargame

I think that's the nub of the issue. IME (even recently with Ronin) it is not uncommon for writers to neglect to spell out some principles because they are, to the writer self evident. I reckon it's a symptom of under-editing.

The funny thing is a simple full turn text example involving say 4 squadrons would take up about a page and solve all of this.

Mike1975 wrote:Everyone in squadron activates, moves, fires, then HTH, then Resolution, then next squadron activates.

Thanks. Any thoughts on what the rules by strict reading say on whether firing is model to model or unit to unit? Even if the latter, I don't see any restriction on you choosing which model in that unit to target (unlike say 40k with it's "remove closest" rule).


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 Talizvar wrote:

<edit> You RAW hardcase you.

I make sure to check every rule for strict RAW right after I place every cyclone next to my doors to check for proper scale and height. If they're under the line, they don't get to play just like on roller coasters!

For targeting, remember rules usually are permission oriented or say what you can do.

Look at page 16 under "choose a target".

Pretty clear any mecha except friendlies unless with life is cheap rule can be targeted if they are within the weapon system's range and have line of sight.

 warboss wrote:
That paragraph is also the one I referred to earlier

Which one?

 Talizvar wrote:
For targeting, remember rules usually are permission oriented or say what you can do.

Look at page 16 under "choose a target".

Pretty clear any mecha except friendlies unless with life is cheap rule can be targeted if they are within the weapon system's range and have line of sight.

That's the thing... it doesn't say "any mecha" but if it did then it wouldn't be an issue. The requirements there easily mesh with "activate a squadron and target a squadron" like onion layer rules tend to. I agree that your reading is a completely legal reading of the rules and frankly how I intend to play it though but it doesn't explicitly contradict the earlier example. I doubt I'll find a rule that flat out states it but there is a preponderance of RAI that indicates model on model shooting contrary to the example. I fully admit I'm being overly pedantic about this but it is such a basic thing that I'm surprised there isn't a clear step by step example of a single turn of combat or a rule stating it.


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 Manchu wrote:

 warboss wrote:
That paragraph is also the one I referred to earlier

Which one?

page 14 second paragraph example of unit to unit shooting. I agree that you can choose to shoot unit to unit even if the rules allow model to model but I'm curious if it ever flat out says it.

The text certainly seems to assume that models attack models rather than units shooting units.

Correct on not "any mech", an "enemy mech".
It only states individual models for targeting so I am unsure what is not clear. Page 16 choose a target.

 Talizvar wrote:
Correct on not "any mech", an "enemy mech".
It only states individual models for targeting so I am unsure what is not clear. Page 16 choose a target.

The preponderance of ancillary evidence points to model to model shooting and I'm satisfied even if I don't think it's explictly written out. YMMV but what is unclear to me is that everything on that page still applies even if page 14 explicitly stated (which it doesn't) that you must shoot unit to unit. It's just another onion layer. If you're told by your significant other that she wants you to go to grocery store A to buy something and then later tells you to ONLY buy organic, that still works with the first restriction despite not repeating it. Again, unnecessary pedantry on my part.

I agree with Manchu that the rules rather consistently assume it except for that pesky example.

Another Update, another call to pre-purchase stuff sight unseen, another failed opportunity to show something, anything, for Wave 2.

At this point, they HAVE to be trolling their backers, right?

EDIT: And again, Big Kev TELLS the backers that the SuperValk Miriya is "drop-dead gorgeous", instead of, you know showing them.

So we went from 'mouthwatering' to 'drop dead gorgeous'.

Even if some backers are stupid enough to reward PB with more money it still may not be enough to cover wave two expenses.

SIgh... another sales pitch with no update (on wave 2) in sight. The "restart" of the backer conversation sure does feel identical to the past 2 years of frustration.

I feel the need to go to bed, but I would have to wonder if it is even allowed in Kickstarter's terms of service to allow sales of third party merch not involved in the Kickstarter after the fact. Basically, Palladium is using Kickstarter to sell stuff and make money with items that were not part of the Kickstarter, after the fact. I think at the very least they would need to get a cut of it, since you are using their platform to sell an item to over 5000 people that was not part of the Kickstarter, and made by a third party, GHQ. Someone else can dig in. I've had enough Palladium BS for one day. Strangely enough, not a peep about wave 2 in yet another 'update'.

Yeah, I read through the "prohibited" items, and I'm pretty sure it covers selling other items not created by the KS. I sent a complaint to KS about it. If they can't do a proper update about the KS, I'm not going to reward them by allowing them to hoc even more stuff to us.

I doubt they'll do anything, as its a pretty common practice. Especially in Tabletop Gaming kickstarters.

And really, what could Kickstarter do about it?

And besides, at $22 a figure, they're not getting many takers, right?

And certainly not without any REAL news on Wave 2's status, right?

From the comments and Mike's page, yes, some, though I wouldn't call it overwhelming demand or anything.

 Cyporiean wrote:
I doubt they'll do anything, as its a pretty common practice. Especially in Tabletop Gaming kickstarters.

And really, what could Kickstarter do about it?

Remove the inappropriate update as they do with comments if they determine that it actually does break their rules? That would be funny if they took down the 19 page history lesson / sales pitch and replaced it with a line of italicized "removed by moderation" text.


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 Alpharius wrote:
And besides, at $22 a figure, they're not getting many takers, right?

And certainly not without any REAL news on Wave 2's status, right?

You underestimate fan friends. They flat out donated tens of thousands of dollars on top of buying sketches and multiyear delayed books that were just listings of their names with a mediocre adventure. Yes, even after taking handouts palladium still couldn't get off their butts to put out a thank you book of half content without multi-year delays.

Even folks who might be unhappy could stilk buy them as well eyes wide open. They could be completionists or simply huge fans of those characters. I suspect they'll get those minis before we hear anything about wave two at this point just like palladium prioritized other books iver tgeir prepaid ones repeatedly (heroes of the megaverse "thank you" book, both their northern gun crowdfunded books, and now robotech).

A funny comment from the KS (typos and all)

Anders Agdahl about 4 hours ago
In the voicw of Kevin S:
I don't think you jerks understood it the first time. Give us more $ and i super pinky swear that i'm 98% sure you will get it. Also im happy to anounce a partnership with our most rapid fans to troll theese comments as im sure thats the best way fot us to re connect to our backers.
Remember to pre order you ungrateful bastards can't you seevhow hard im workng here
Varporware 9.99$
Jazz hands 19.99?
Handvavium source book 19.99
Vauge non commiting re assurances 9.99$

I'd rather not have the project locked and wiped a la Prodos AvP. PB are crappy people and do a crappy job of Updating, but something is better than nothing.

PB being able to point the finger at KS for locking and wiping? They'll just move all updates to their forum, starting with yet another "woe is me" speech about how they're powerless to get KS to "fix" things, and now there's yet another roadblock to success.

FFS, don't give them this option!

If they decide to cut and run, I'm sure that there will be folks at the palladium forums that will completely support their decision. It is a good point though.

I am sure in the writer's contracts with PB is for some of their creative fiction works are to be done in their forums of mythical fans as defenders of the faith.

Yes the extra missives from Kevin is him thinking we are rather thick and not understanding his meaning that we MUST buy this new product: somehow it is the linchpin of his as yet undisclosed plans.

 warboss wrote:
If they decide to cut and run, I'm sure that there will be folks at the palladium forums that will completely support their decision. It is a good point though.

At this point, I'm not sure whether a Dave / lola tantrum is worse than NMI altering reality to pretend nothing bad ever happened.

They're all annoying and one doesn't excuse the other. Maybe someone thinks the same of me here but the endless vitriolic back and forth between jorel and jaymz (both hypocritcs who flipflop between the arms and ass of palladium) and rick and lola's pointless "i'm a gonna sue! vs *wall of text*" S&M sessions just give fuel to the white knights and palladium to just take their time (5 years?) and do it right (20 piece 15mm cyclones!). And there there is Dave Simpson's 300 comment spam fest that he is now claiming amnesia for. Ughh... He and his channel are just as bad. He posted a video a year back claiming he was swearing off kickstarters and yet 2 out of 3 videos on his youtube channel are just spam for kickstarters that buy time via patreon. I unsubscribed to his stuff back when the actual ad content of videos equaled and occasionally surpassed the actual content. He'd post blurry con videos that were 30 seconds long that were preceeded by 30 seconds of ads and intros (with ads!). The final straw was when I counted a full 6 or 7 ads that lasted a full minute before ANY actual content. I subscribed initially because he was one of the only channels that covered mech style games beyond battletech but he's slowly become the shamwow infomercial channel of tabletop gaming in his quest to monetize the videos.

Who are we kidding. The cyclones will be 6mm.

But they'll still be 20 pieces.

 Forar wrote:
Who are we kidding. The cyclones will be 6mm.

But they'll still be 20 pieces.

Indeed. I like that someone posted the old forgeworld multipiece 6mm epic space marine. Now that I think about it, I should probably email that to palladium's tipster account to show that they don't have to look like sprue shavings.

All kidding aside, if it was like 'mix and match legs and upper body', I'd be find with that.

But if they expect us to be putting 2mm long legs and 1mm long arms onto a 3mm body/head...

Oh god that's what they're going to want us to do.