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Wave 2, forar! Don't look into the 15mm light!

A funny comment from the KS (typos and all)

Anders Agdahl about 4 hours ago
In the voicw of Kevin S:
I don't think you jerks understood it the first time. Give us more $ and i super pinky swear that i'm 98% sure you will get it. Also im happy to anounce a partnership with our most rapid fans to troll theese comments as im sure thats the best way fot us to re connect to our backers.
Remember to pre order you ungrateful bastards can't you seevhow hard im workng here
Varporware 9.99$
Jazz hands 19.99?
Handvavium source book 19.99
Vauge non commiting re assurances 9.99$

I wrote it on my phone so I have no accountability for any typos.

Anyway, the delays and clunky rules system really put me of the idea of a robotech/macross wargame so instead I went and wrote my own rule system that doesn't make you keep track of hit points on individual 6mm infantry figures and forcing you to have three versions of every miniature.

Here are some in older action shots of playtesting the game, hope you enjoy and I will get some new ones I've set up my new game room this autumn (Can't fit my carrier battle group in our current apartment).

/Regards

- Anders/Auzu

Redmenace wrote:

A funny comment from the KS (typos and all)
*snip*

I wrote it on my phone so I have no accountability for any typos.

Anyway, the delays and clunky rules system really put me of the idea of a robotech/macross wargame so instead I went and wrote my own rule system that doesn't make you keep track of hit points on individual 6mm infantry figures and forcing you to have three versions of every miniature.

Here are some in older action shots of playtesting the game, hope you enjoy and I will get some new ones I've set up my new game room this autumn (Can't fit my carrier battle group in our current apartment).

/Regards

- Anders/Auzu

Nice pics and work there! Ironically, I had to correct my own type for the same reason (pecking away on a kindle) when I quoted you and I only had a few words. In any case, welcome to dakka regardless and let us know how the playtesting as well as modelling goes. How tall are those flight stands by the way?

Can someone link me to this "Dave" person on Kickstarter so I can read his comments?

Thanks!

Well I'm not actually new here is just that my old account had seen so little use that I couldn't get the password back for it. But I always were more prolific on Portent/Warseer so I don't think I had any worthwhile number of posts here.

The flight stands are originally the Large ones from hawk wargames with a longer rod varying between 7"-10" inches. but I think I will make some 12 inch ones for electronic warfare aircraft's.

 Alpharius wrote:
Can someone link me to this "Dave" person on Kickstarter so I can read his comments?

Thanks!

https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1364854474/comments

Scroll down a few pages to get the hundreds of comments that would give you a fit if you couldn't remove all of them at once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redmenace wrote:
Well I'm not actually new here is just that my old account had seen so little use that I couldn't get the password back for it. But I always were more prolific on Portent/Warseer so I don't think I had any worthwhile number of posts here.

The flight stands are originally the Large ones from hawk wargames with a longer rod varying between 7"-10" inches. but I think I will make some 12 inch ones for electronic warfare aircraft's.

They look nice but a bit unsteady. I'd be worried about them being knocked over every time someone bumped the table with a leg but they are visually impressive and convey the "flight" aspect a lot better. I'm still not sure what I'll do if/when I build mine.

I haven't actually had any problems with them being unstable and it really looks nice when they are so much higher up than the helicopters and ground mechs.

 warboss wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Can someone link me to this "Dave" person on Kickstarter so I can read his comments?

Thanks!

https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1364854474/comments

Scroll down a few pages to get the hundreds of comments that would give you a fit if you couldn't remove all of them at once.

How in the world is he still posting on Kickstarter comment pages?

Clearly whatever poilicy KS has is...a joke?

Yikes!

It takes them from my limited experience in reading comments a few days to catch up with reports if they do anything. They do pounce quickly on complaints from the creators though as cypher can attest to.

They've also made it alot tougher to report posters at least on the backer end. I tried reporting someone last year who only posted insults and I took me a long time to find out how. In the end, they didn't even do anything despite me listing dozens of his RECENT insults from four letter words to anatomical references to declarations about the mental development or parentage of his fellow posters. That angry canadian limo driver was a piece of .... um, work...yeah, we'll go with that word.

Yeah, that dude was a real donkey cave.

I'm glad he and Alex Clarke no longer visit the page.

Though BS and Joshua's returns haven't exactly been uplifting.

 Alpharius wrote:

Clearly whatever poilicy KS has is...a joke?

Clearly!

KS's policies are there to keep them from litigation, not that they might not. I've yet to see a KS policy that actually refunded backers or otherwise provided protection.

Anyway, my random guess for the metals is that PB is having cash flow problems, and ponzi-scheming -- er, pre-ordering -- metals is one way they're looking into raising some cash.

Obviously, if 10% to 20% of the 5000+ backers (even more with PB supporters) spend $100 to $50 on these must-have mini's, PB's gonna have $50,000 to pay the manufacturer who's holding the plastic hostage because they haven't been paid yet.

That''s "obviously" as in "obviously, people will buy these miniatures", of course.

 Forar wrote:
Yeah, that dude was a real donkey cave.

I'm glad he and Alex Clarke no longer visit the page.

Though BS and Joshua's returns haven't exactly been uplifting.

What a coincidence a mention of exclusives suddenly draws Joshua back. And damn all those trolls hurting his profits.

It would be interesting if KS added a set of escrow / milestone / insurance options.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It would be interesting if KS added a set of escrow / milestone / insurance options.

I posted a while back in the old thread that I think KS should institute mandatory insurance as part of higher fees for kickstarter creators. Basically, you'd get insurance for and reimbursed up to the likely most common pledge (like the sweet spot $140 pledge for robotech) and backers would know about it ahead of time. If you pledge above that whether in the campaign or in a pledge manager, you do so at your own risk but that way they're still be a safety net for backers. If the creator successfully fully and timely delivers (say, less than 6 month delay) as determined by a backer poll after the completion, he/she is exempt those extra fees for projects of similar pledge levels and ultimate pledge total (to prevent someone from running an easy $1 pledge level and we fund at $10 kickstarter to get around the restriction). If they want the extra insurance, they could of course get it. I don't have any detailed insurance actuary knowledge of how much that insurance would cost the creators %-wise but I'd like that from a backer perspective and judging from car/house/rental insurance it shouldn't be more than a few % of the "sweet spot" pledge when averaged out over the whole platform. If the company didn't meet those final criteria (full timely fulfillment), the rate would obviously go up significantly (like getting into an accident).

Insurance is an interesting thing to think on but you have two options I can think of and neither seem very appealing:

1) A company would have to act as the insurer, what would they need before they agree to cover? Maybe if they are the mandatory provider for KS so then like group insurance it might work. Completely depends on how the creators are held accountable.

2) Some mechanism where a portion of the money goes into a financial pool and is dispensed like insurance. Less money for the creators though and a means for KS to make more money... may give them incentive to tighten up the rules.

I personally would like to see money issued as a series of "gates" like in projects where percentages of the money backed is released as they are met. Administration of this would be difficult however since the various KS projects vary immensely. I just think creators need to submit something like a business plan, you know, like when you apply for a loan at the bank, not some half baked idea on a napkin.
Say I submit that I need $100,000 for the project to work.
Design I lined up some guys and myself and figure it needs $30,000.
Then tooling would be around $40,000.
Manufacture if tooling goes according to plan is $20,000.
Then shipping costs (cargo container and backer shipping) $10,000.
So as each portion is completed (of core dependencies) the next set of funds are released.
Allowances for extended stretch goals can calculate a sliding scale for each element.

What I am getting at here is if these yahoo's were forced to figure out much of these things beforehand and held accountable there would be a whole lot less failures from those who cannot plan past their next meal.

I think I would like the issue of using KS money for buying retail sale product before full delivery should be strictly forbidden: the creator should be using his own money.

 Talizvar wrote:
Insurance is an interesting thing to think on but you have two options I can think of and neither seem very appealing:

1) A company would have to act as the insurer, what would they need before they agree to cover? Maybe if they are the mandatory provider for KS so then like group insurance it might work. Completely depends on how the creators are held accountable.

2) Some mechanism where a portion of the money goes into a financial pool and is dispensed like insurance. Less money for the creators though and a means for KS to make more money... may give them incentive to tighten up the rules.

I have no problem with any of the above just to clarify. Does it give creators less money? Sure... but it also gives them a little bit of a safety net as well so they don't have to declare bankruptcy when things like incompatible files, employee theft, delayed or lost shipping containers, dock worker strikes, and subcontractors/partners not living up to their obligations mess up things majorly competely out of their control (in addition of course to any possible legendary incompetence on their part). That doesn't mean that they're completely off the hook just like normal with insurance but the threat of a lawsuit from an insurance company with lawyers on retainer to get back their.... say for example.. $1.43 million is alot more of an incentive to plan things properly ahead of time than one lone loudmouth shouting "I'm a gonna sue you!" hundreds of times years later. If they actually end up paying claims out for a kickstarter, that company and/or individual should either NEVER be allowed to kickstart again or to do so with much higher personal rates instead of a group average like the first time around. As long as the % fee is disclosed ahead of time, the creators should factor that into their necessary funding at each step (initial and stretch). If they can't manage that, they shouldn't be fething crowdfunding anything more than a sandwich or potato salad.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm!
PB Potatoe Salad.
Taste the Rainbow!

Careful. I'm pretty such that mouthwatering potato salad doesn't keep very well for the typical 2+ year delay inherent in everything palladium. Also, you'd likely get the mayo, potato, veggies, and vinegar in separate baggies and a 5 part spork to mix together/assemble yourself instead of just the 3 part potato salad everyone else sells (food, bowl, fork).

 Forar wrote:
All kidding aside, if it was like 'mix and match legs and upper body', I'd be find with that.

But if they expect us to be putting 2mm long legs and 1mm long arms onto a 3mm body/head...

Oh god that's what they're going to want us to do.

Only because that's what you, THE FANS demanded.

Or maybe Harmony Gold.

But SOMEONE DEMANDED IT!

Also, 6mm just doesn't give the detail demanded. RRT will now be 8.7mm. Because YOU demanded it. Or maybe HG did. But someone did.

The milestones-escrow thing would probably never work because it would require actual work on KS's part. That or KS just believes the creator when they say oh I've hit this milestone, money please.

The creators are only part of the problem. The other part is KS itself, who's just a horrible enabler but doesn't care because it's still getting money

 warboss wrote:

I have no problem with any of the above just to clarify. Does it give creators less money? Sure... but it also gives them a little bit of a safety net as well so they don't have to declare bankruptcy when things like <PB RRT KS mini-history commence! - Tal>

Spoiler:

incompatible files, employee theft, delayed or lost shipping containers, dock worker strikes, and subcontractors/partners not living up to their obligations mess up things majorly competely out of their control (in addition of course to any possible legendary incompetence on their part). That doesn't mean that they're completely off the hook just like normal with insurance but the threat of a lawsuit from an insurance company with lawyers on retainer to get back their.... say for example.. $1.43 million is alot more of an incentive to plan things properly ahead of time than one lone loudmouth shouting "I'm a gonna sue you!" hundreds of times years later.

If they actually end up paying claims out for a kickstarter, that company and/or individual should either NEVER be allowed to kickstart again or to do so with much higher personal rates instead of a group average like the first time around. As long as the % fee is disclosed ahead of time, the creators should factor that into their necessary funding at each step (initial and stretch). If they can't manage that, they shouldn't be fething crowdfunding anything more than a sandwich or potato salad.

Also reasonable sounding but involves more administrative costs and more "involvement (=responsibility)" of KickStarter which they obviously shy away from.
Funny, it is not only PB we must withhold money from for change but also KS because their just being a "host" for the system has shown to be a broken system.
They do not realize if they do not improve their system/product there will be less money coming in because the trust is not there.

Assembly of 6mm scale cyclone riders would be exciting, I still have visions of that scout pod bit that has frustrated every attempt to cut it out without breaking.
Easier to make the bit out of card. (which this fellow did).:I am sure at least 3 connection points will be on each part in any case with a big lump right next to it to ensure a big reservoir for the tiny detail to have a hope of flowing well (never mind foiling most attempts at cutting).

Hah, I'd love it if KS didn't get their money until the KS delivered - that'd incentivize KS to go after and care about those KS's that run over their projected time frames.

At the least optional insurance would be nice. Pay an extra 2$-3$ at the start of the KS. If the company delivers on time, they get the money. If they don't deliver on time, you can force them to refund you the full amount if they miss their date.

Yes, both of those would cut back on KS's, but we wouldn't have PB sort of botches either.

Clearly Palladium is frightened, digging up its top tier trolls/shills to post on the Kickstarter forum the last few days, with Bad Sellout, Trollafett, and Josh all chiming in, trying to defend the indefensible with their inane postings of everything is fine, you whiny entitled brats...

Meanwhile the scale nonsense continues, with wave 2 vaporware....

Only concern I have with KS insurance is that it might encourage creators to make even more overpromises on KS (thus making KS *riskier*) since some may assume KS insurance will bail them out. Meanwhile, backers may back riskier projects because they assume they can get their refund. (You don't need a brain to pledge on KS or create a project, I'll tell you that.) Mebbe insurance would also open KS to more liability or legal gobbledigook as well. OTOH, eBay has its "insurance" and Google offers a "trusted merchant" guarantee or something. But the goods these sites "insure" have already been made, lowering their risk compared to the vaporware on KS.

There's been a ton of folks on both sides of the fence coming out of the woodwork. Unfortunately it's brought out the worst in both sides. It's not just those three that are to blame, there's a few on the other side who are just as bad at fueling the flames of hate in the other direction.

I've vented myself on the kickstarter, so I'm guilty too. I just wish Kevin would get the hint and post some info about Wave 2 to shut all everyone being up in arms over the state of the KS and its backers.

Wow!

I just looked at some of the comments by Joshua and... again, I'm amazed at what gets allowed there, and what apparently doesn't get people a suspension of posting privileges!

Yikes!

To quote Forar from the comments:

Funny that distribution should come up. In 2013, Alliance Distributions had the 'short solicit pre-orders' up for Retail Wave One (remember folks, this was before that became Backer Wave One) in mid June for product due out in December.

So while it's not The Sky Falling for those not being out yet, as the weeks and months go on, it will be fascinating to see how far out PB pushes it, as indicative of their seriousness/confidence about making that end of year target. And with the emphasis on the holiday sales from last year, I don't for a second think they won't repeat wave one shipping and just fire off US backer stuff so they can justify NA retail sales ASAP.

I don't personally think for a second that they won't instead try to repeat Gencon shipping and just fire off retail stuff before ANY backers other than some token fan friends get their stuff because, you know, the holiday season is so important they know they promised but come on guys! I'd be curious to see if the poll numbers would change with another year of delays and nothing to show for it during that time from wave 2 but I'd suspect that palladium would instead just rest on the overwhelming 70%+ "go for it!" results of the first poll as justification that the fans want what is best "for the game".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Wow!

I just looked at some of the comments by Joshua and... again, I'm amazed at what gets allowed there, and what apparently doesn't get people a suspension of posting privileges!

Yikes!

To bad they're not as strict as on the palladium forums where you get prebanned for trolling a kickstarter that has yet to happen if they don't like what you said!

 Alpharius wrote:
Wow!
I just looked at some of the comments by Joshua and... again, I'm amazed at what gets allowed there, and what apparently doesn't get people a suspension of posting privileges!
Yikes!

I figured once you looked at those comments it would curl your hair.
Take pride in having "trained" us to be a little more civil and your work keeps the barbarians at bay.

Well, to merge the Gencon fiasco with the ongoing rumour about them not showing things off because they're running on empty; if they were unable to finish wave two, the sensible thing to do would be to finish as many figures as possible, use what funds were available to punch out as many as they could afford to make and ship, and get them into circulation asap.

Especially since wave 2 stuff are things that most people (who only got a BC + add ons or a Showdown) have in vastly more limited quantities.

And then fall back on 'for the good of the game!' with whatever excuses they wish to tack on, while embracing loving supporters who declare it the wisest possible choice.

Note: I'm not trying to stir people up or concern troll or anything, merely extrapolating from what they have done, included what they aren't doing (giving us info), and where that could go in the next half year.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Wow!
I just looked at some of the comments by Joshua and... again, I'm amazed at what gets allowed there, and what apparently doesn't get people a suspension of posting privileges!
Yikes!

I figured once you looked at those comments it would curl your hair.
Take pride in having "trained" us to be a little more civil and your work keeps the barbarians at bay.

Ha!

I have more faith in you guys!

Plus, well, you know the system here automatically stops some of that and the Moderators and site policy certainly stop the rest!