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 Evil_Toast wrote:
In all seriousness, my pet theory of getting hit for extra postage for Wave 2 is proving unfounded. Seeing as Wave 2 is looking like vapourware at this point.

It really looks like PB is trying to steer all control and product away from KS other than a place to get people to buy their (other) product.
This not talking about wave 2 is like a way to force an audience to pay attention.
It is like they know the audience they "enjoy" will be gone when that is done and they fade into obscurity again.
Kevin has enjoyed his new found fame and is well aware he has little in has bag of tricks for an encore.
The crisis of treachery part III would just make him look stupid.
Flogging new RPG books cuz they are the bestest! Markets are rather waning there guy... license for a video game? Nah, where is the imagination!?
Hey KS their next open house, since they just could be the last one!!

I am just tired of hearing them try to ratchet up the drama when so little is there to get excited about.
The response to PB of "That is it???" is proper because they have no sense of proportion.

Thanks for all the pics, cypher. I'm a big fan of scale shots and I'm constantly disappointing that I have to hunt so far to find accidental ones online so often where the minis just happen to be in shots on the painting desk with others.

Like, even as someone who wishes for bigger Cyclones and Invid, I don't see why they're bothering with 15mm as an option. Too small for skirmish, too big for the wargame.

If they really wanted people making informed choices, they'd arrange to have as many RRT figures as possible lined up with a variety of 3D printed and/or sculpted versions from 6mm to 10mm or so.

Seeing the difference on a flat screen isn't going to tell the full story either, but there's been a lot of people who were rabidly in favour of one thing, until they saw test pics and realized just what it was they were calling for.

And I mean that both ways (6mm purists to adjustments, and mixed/15mm to purists alike).

Most people are not familiar enough with the series and their 'actual size comparisons'. But images like Warboss' from before definitely bring home more clearly just what is being emphasized.

That sounds haaaaaard, forar. like a lot of effort...you have to take pics after you buy film and flashbulbs, develop it at the 1 hour machine in the drug store (because you, the fans, are worth the cost of expediting it!), then trust a fan friend to use their flatbed scanner to upload it to the internet and you might have to pay their per minute dial up and landline costs. Be reasonable, Forar! I mean... what alternative do they have? Taking polaroids and mailing them to every backer?? Think of the cost. That would be as stupid as not ironing out a contract with the responsibilities of each partner or seeing if the 6 months of work that you paid for are incompatible with the next 2 years of effort.

<sigh> Place your bets that the second "saga" of Robotech will be supplied by GHQ hence the urgent feedback needed on scale is rather indicative.
After these "make do" models for the Macross era, PB is looking for where their next meal is coming from.

They can do models piecemeal and I think they feel this method is "better" for less planning and accountability.
I think they have felt the backlash enough that they feel another KS would be unappealing for both groups.
BUT you need to pre-order NOW just because... it is a special offer, prices will go through the roof so you better not wait.

You too can line-up with all those other RPG book pre-order fan friends who have waited happily for years.

Even with what little KS accountability there is, this scale discussion I can guarantee will be for a 98% PB controlled product.
The only saving grace is that GHQ will be the magic black box that makes designs, makes the molds and pumps out bags of figures.
I have a suspicion they will hand the packaging and the various cards over to PB to handle since it will all not be as pretty as the KS packaging.

I am not voicing my opinion on scale because PB would like to forget about prior commitments and hope the fans are as stoked and distracted as they are.
I want wave 2 over and never want to see these clowns again.

 Talizvar wrote:

BUT you need to pre-order NOW just because... it is a special offer, prices will go through the roof so you better not wait.

You too can line-up with all those other RPG book pre-order fan friends who have waited happily for years.

We fell for it. :(

I'm curious is the Heavy Gear kickstarter that is going with tooling and production within the US will have the same issues. They have a smaller model count and smaller models as well so that simplifies things. They also seem a more responsive to feedback as well as starting from a better point in the designs (yet not without their own issues like not looking close enough to the metal models).

Well to do the big push for plastic models you make the money on volume. Only PB will know the demand they are seeing for models beyond their initial KS and retail offering.

I suspect working with GHQ is more in line with their volumes. I think the real falling out with Ninja Division would be pushing for the injection mold dies and not having a proper handle on expected volumes. My home brew gravity pour low melt metal molds may have been more their speed... (kidding, but not far from truth). Should have had Ironwind dust off some "unseen" molds instead.

It is these things that Kevin wistfully looks back on of where savings could have been found but he was "talked into it against his better judgment" (yeah, right).

Never really got into Heavygear but the video games sure made them seem fun to pilot. Similar challenges in detail and long history of the IP look so it is a worthy thing to compare against.

So anyway, I am banking on PB getting too much stock in and they will be stuffing their surprise Christmas stocking for the years remaining to them. Laugh at me later if it turns out otherwise.


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BTW if wave 2 actually becomes vaporware PB will move absolutely nothing other than Battletech worthy models. The game is quickly becoming boring without the needed unit variety and scenarios they can fulfill.

 warboss wrote:
Thanks for all the pics, cypher. I'm a big fan of scale shots and I'm constantly disappointing that I have to hunt so far to find accidental ones online so often where the minis just happen to be in shots on the painting desk with others.

Happy to help.


Someone on the comments section brought up a good point. Look at how inquisitor failed when get changed the scale of the minis. If kevy decides to go for a different scale I get the feeling the same will happen.

Thomas Roach if your still here please make Kevin aware of that. In the end he may end up having a bunch of 15mm junk laying around.

The change in inquisitor from 40k (28 to 54mm) was actually LESS proportionately than a 6mm to 15mm bump. But, hey, who cares if Robotech gets a scale creep that is bigger than the one below because everyone knows that a motorcycle should tower over a convoy truck and/or GHQ metal robotech tank, right?



I mean, these figs are still relatively the same size right? There is still room to grow an extra 50% on the one on the left to make it even bigger yet still visually be appropriate with other stuff like the dreadnought that it dwarfs above, right?



#sizedoesntmatterforpalladium

 Cypher-xv wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Thanks for all the pics, cypher. I'm a big fan of scale shots and I'm constantly disappointing that I have to hunt so far to find accidental ones online so often where the minis just happen to be in shots on the painting desk with others.

Happy to help.

Someone on the comments section brought up a good point. Look at how inquisitor failed when get changed the scale of the minis. If kevy decides to go for a different scale I get the feeling the same will happen.

It wasn't the only reason it failed though. It being a completely separate game (and changed mechanics significantly), and it being a customization game without easy customization. Scale wasn't the only issue, and for some, not even that big a deal. Being devil's advocate, at least there's looking to be no apparent change to the game itself, just the size of the miniatures being inauthentic. Unless PB screw the playerbase again, it'd just be an aesthetic difference. But for some, that difference IS significant. After all, if people didn't care about aesthetics, they would just play with chits.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Thomas Roach if your still here please make Kevin aware of that. In the end he may end up having a bunch of 15mm junk laying around.

While it'd be nice to hope, based on past history, that kind of appeal is pointless. Even if he makes the attempt, the number of people who have "Kevin's ear" and have made claim to pass it on up, get no results. Whether that's because they're not doing it in the first place, there's an intermediary stopping it from getting to Kevin, Kevin ignores it out of hand, or Kevin looks into it and can't be bothered. All I know is there's a laundry list of people who have said they'd do it, for a wide variety of topics, and it seems like there's rarely movement, and even then it seems coincidental/inevitable rather than because it was specifically brought to his attention. Kevin does what Kevin does.

Or they get sunshine rainbow fart flash banged and forget what it was they were passing on from the peasants.


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Morgan Vening wrote:
It wasn't the only reason it failed though. It being a completely separate game (and changed mechanics significantly), and it being a customization game without easy customization. Scale wasn't the only issue, and for some, not even that big a deal. Being devil's advocate, at least there's looking to be no apparent change to the game itself, just the size of the miniatures being inauthentic. Unless PB screw the playerbase again, it'd just be an aesthetic difference. But for some, that difference IS significant. After all, if people didn't care about aesthetics, they would just play with chits.

True, it didn't fail for the scale difference but it certainly didn't help that you had no other use for those figs beyond display pieces. If they up the scale 250%, robotech will fall into the same category for me at least and I'm not a scale purist. I'm completely fine in my dirty peasant ways using 10mm terrain with my 6mm figs instead of downloading, resizing, printing, and cutting the same buildings to be "proper". An increase of 250% though is the haystack that broke the camel's back though.

 warboss wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgan Vening wrote:
It wasn't the only reason it failed though. It being a completely separate game (and changed mechanics significantly), and it being a customization game without easy customization. Scale wasn't the only issue, and for some, not even that big a deal. Being devil's advocate, at least there's looking to be no apparent change to the game itself, just the size of the miniatures being inauthentic. Unless PB screw the playerbase again, it'd just be an aesthetic difference. But for some, that difference IS significant. After all, if people didn't care about aesthetics, they would just play with chits.

True, it didn't fail for the scale difference but it certainly didn't help that you had no other use for those figs beyond display pieces. If they up the scale 250%, robotech will fall into the same category for me at least and I'm not a scale purist. I'm completely fine in my dirty peasant ways using 10mm terrain with my 6mm figs instead of downloading, resizing, printing, and cutting the same buildings to be "proper". An increase of 250% though is the haystack that broke the camel's back though.

Or when my friends and I played it, we used "normal" 28mm models.
We already had good terrain in that size to "forge the narrative.
I suppose it is easier finding ~N scale terrain in this case... but it is still more stuff to get.
For me, no.
If they keep the scale and they hit retail, I might consider it.
PB should be aware, models are already being printed, do not give them a reason not to use your models due to picking a "non-standard" size.
Most people want some of the saga overlaps like Invid fighting Zent., a chance to have multiple factions within the same game rule / size set.
This question of scale change is I feel not doable other than in the realm of slight scale "fudging" to avoid the silly small cyclones.

Hey, the good news is if GHQ makes the next generation of models, it's likely they'll be able to buy Robotech out from under the nose of PB, because, like they're actually producing stuff.

According to psycho David Simpson there is a group of backers who are pulling the legal trigger. He posted it in the update section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's the post.

"@Red Duke Games / ANYONE WHO HAS AFFILIATION WITH PALLADIUM:

Let them know a class action suit is being organized and filed against them. I'm offering this information as a courtesy...People are tired of being jerked around. The reckoning begins! Oh, and as soon as it's fully started, I'm jumping on board! I want my money back."

Isn't he the guy who smokes car tyres or something?

He's the guy who flipped out and spammed one of the recent updates with bs.

Oh, He did? I didn't notice.

I'll believe it only when he posts contact info for the law firm that agreed to take the case.

I do believe that legal action is underway, and I suspect they are very early in the process. Before a law firm is named, they need to decide on a firm, no? And how fees will be apportioned. How they're going to be organized.

That could take a while, but the end goal would still be to compel Palladium to deliver by legal force, if necessary.

Someone should tell that man-child that a lawsuit could a) mean that wave 2 doesn't get delivered at all, b) if forced to provide refunds they will only be able to pay fractions of what was given to them, c) for someone interested in being a part of the industry it is better for him to not piss off companies and gamers.

It depends,

If it is a class action with all backers on board nobody's going to get anything

but if it's a smaller suit the limited number of backers might just get (some of) their money back (killing Palladium in the process).... so all the rest of the backers get nothing

The Ricks and Davids want to ruin it for the rest of us because they had to wait a bit longer for their toys.

 n815e wrote:
The Ricks and Davids want to ruin it for the rest of us because they had to wait a bit longer for their toys.

While I don't necessarily support them, being on track for a two year delay if everything goes as planned from now on (which is unlikely given Palladium's ongoing history and their utter lack of progress updates) is not "a bit longer".

It is, though. The only reason we are aware of the delays and such is because this is a kickstarter. If they had gone the route of making this thing with their own money none of this would have seemed out of the ordinary.

If two years ago they announced they were going to make this and then released the first wave this past November, people would think that is a normal development time frame. They released a starter set and 6 (?) sets. Let's say a 'normal' release was done. Then we would have seen the starter followed by a new additional box monthly. Nobody would be freaking out if the next group of stuff was in development with a projected follow on release a year or so later. That would seem normal. Neither would anyone think it odd that they team up with GHQ to get new products out in the meantime.

A two to three year time frame to develop and release phase one of a miniatures game is reasonable and these guys are new to it.

How many years do you think GW or Privateer plan ahead for developing new products? Or any company with any type of product?

I am not a Palladium fan. This is the only thing I buy from them. As a backer, I think their communication sucks. But I also have a realistic set of expectations for production. Throwing fits, making up wild rumors and threatening to destroy not just a company but the monetary investment of 5,000 people just because you have to wait a bit for your toys is despicable.

Why must the flight stands look so hideous?

I agree with you n815e.

Of course you have omitted the work done pre kickstarter - remember the tagline l98% done.

I do not think the rumoured legal action wiill change anything. It will take a fair amout of time to gather evidence and unlike the earlier class action succeess, there is no evidence that PB have run off with funds and will not ultimately deliver.

Sadly, PB 's idea of delivery may be in 2016 at best.

Let' s be honest if PB would stop the messing about with history lessons, sales for exclusives and scale vaporware and simply came out and gave backers what they want, a clear and homest update on the status of wave 2, the wind would be taken right out of these legal shennanigans.

However, by continuing to stick two fingers up at us, they are inviting this and all the negativity around the game.

think you're missing the point N815e, this IS a kickstarter.
Being new they should have given a longer release date, Palladium announced an early release. They said everything was on track long after it was onviously not.
They took people's money and then lied their arses off.
There was nothing stopping them from making a base game kickstarter and leaving the rest until kickstarter two.

 n815e wrote:
It is, though. The only reason we are aware of the delays and such is because this is a kickstarter. If they had gone the route of making this thing with their own money none of this would have seemed out of the ordinary.

If two years ago they announced they were going to make this and then released the first wave this past November, people would think that is a normal development time frame. They released a starter set and 6 (?) sets. Let's say a 'normal' release was done. Then we would have seen the starter followed by a new additional box monthly. Nobody would be freaking out if the next group of stuff was in development with a projected follow on release a year or so later. That would seem normal. Neither would anyone think it odd that they team up with GHQ to get new products out in the meantime.

A two to three year time frame to develop and release phase one of a miniatures game is reasonable and these guys are new to it.

And yet here we are two years LATE. Who set that 6 month timetable instead of 2-3 years? Hint: it wasn't backers. It was Palladium. They boasted about their own 25+ years as a company and how great their partners were. I'd love to say they counted their chickens before they hatched but that would be giving them too much credit...they sold the chickens before they even priced out the hens. I do agree though that any actual legal proceedings will not have any positive effects for 98% of backers. That said, I don't believe this latest threat of a lawsuit any more than I would the first advertised palladium release date for a new project. Hopefully though they'll be gullible enough to believe it and be scared into posting what they long should have been, namely definitive and detailed wave 2 "progress" updates.

 n815e wrote:
It is, though. The only reason we are aware of the delays and such is because this is a kickstarter. If they had gone the route of making this thing with their own money none of this would have seemed out of the ordinary..

But they didn't use their own money, because they did not have the money to make this project happen.

Instead, they solicited funds through kickstarter, assured the backers that while Palladium did not have experience with miniatures, they were partnered up with people who did. And then gave a rather quick turnaround that no one really took serious, but didn't think would start pushing two years, with no real end in sight.

Yes, if they had done it all in house, and it had turned into a giant debacle, then no one could say a word.

But they didn't. If the rest of this project goes pear shaped and everyone who backed gets pooched, point the fingers at Palladium, not anyone who brings legal action. They are the ones who screwed the project from start to finish.

This is actually why some companies refuse to go public, or even try to go private. Shareholders are notorious for having different goals than management, such as short-term returns vs. long-term company health. Backers aren't investors (and companies lie to potential investors, too), but they still have an interest in a company once they've handed over their money -- often irrevocably. Unfortunately, unlike shareholders, they have little or no say. (Some shareholders will say the same for their financial interests, too...)