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Well, sure. But you're predicating all that on the assumption that a person or business taking money from someone in exchange for a product (to be delivered in the future) is in some way obligated to the people providing that money.

Not everyone agrees. Which, honestly, is something I just plain can't comprehend.

Where PB could take a beating is if they did not use their own money for the retail production of product which would be easy to determine.
Also if their present balance is less than what is quoted / being billed for wave 2 tooling / production / packaging / cargo shipping / backer shipping could also prove intent not to fulfill.
This is why if they are guilty, I would trade in my faint hope for a wave2 for them going out of business.
Call me spiteful but the entitlement they demonstrate needs a smack down.

Again, their communication sucks. They are public relations morons.
That doesn't mean that realistic expectations shouldn't exist on our part. I post this to give some perspective, to remind those of us that are reasonable people that we shouldn't fly off the handle. Yes, they piss me off. Yes, they are also taking a reasonable time to do things when you don't consider the clueless nonsense they post.

I backed this thing because I want to see it made. It is one of only two KS I have backed, I don't like the inherent risks of backing projects but for me, to see this made, I put in a lot of money.
Hold them accountable? Yes!

Giving support to 'gentlemen' that only want to see the company burn and your dollars, too, because they didn't get their toys right away? Think about it.

I guess, the point is more about, "do you really believe they will deliver wave2 at all?"
To me it seems they didn´t work on wave 2 in 2014, and besides their word, that nearly everything is done and just need some fixing we got to see nothing, no pics at all.
Now they still work on it and maybe anytime soon™ (we all know what PB means with soon™) they will beging tooling.

Is it really about "delays" or delivering at all?

 Talizvar wrote:
Where PB could take a beating is if they did not use their own money for the retail production of product which would be easy to determine.

That is what I've long suspected/feared. They spent the lion's share of the money left after North American shipping on buying tons of retail product that might just be sitting there. They had an ultra successful kickstarter and their chosen pool of fan friends have been telling them that the lies, obfuscation, and intentional breaking of their word is all awesomesauce so why shouldn't the money keep rolling in by the truckfull? That of course doesn't account for the possibilities of already fulfilled community need via the ks. Their actions have real world sales consequences no matter what their chosen few tell them. In that above scenario, our money is tied up in slow moving stock and they have to fund the ongoing development with leftover new funds. Of course, newly purchased items have more consumer protection so they have to scrounge to fund robotech development.

 n815e wrote:
Giving support to 'gentlemen' that only want to see the company burn and your dollars, too, because they didn't get their toys right away? Think about it.

Thought about it.
I really do not think the product being "toys" gives the excuse for garbage business practices.
They could sell pens or dice bags for all I care.

I had spent more money on the backer kit for more wave 2 stuff: I specifically selected items to buy.
This is not the funding to just see it developed.
They have gained benefit of cash in hand and me less the use of it and interest.

Any other method of payment I would have the right to information of the status of my purchase: it is one of those grown-up expectations.
Look at it from the other perspective: should a company not burn for taking your dollars and refusing to say anything about the product progress?
If I am going to be strung along I would be happy to take a hit for the team to ensure other consumers are protected from them by reporting to the better business bureau and legal inquiries.
It is the right thing to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
...they have to fund the ongoing development with leftover new funds. Of course, newly purchased items have more consumer protection so they have to scrounge to fund robotech development.

Hence the push for localized easy product. Think of the GHQ offering as an enhanced version of the dice bag.
It may explain some of the push for their RPG products as well: It matters not from where the bloo... er, "revenue" flows...

 n815e wrote:
Again, their communication sucks. They are public relations morons.
That doesn't mean that realistic expectations shouldn't exist on our part. I post this to give some perspective, to remind those of us that are reasonable people that we shouldn't fly off the handle. Yes, they piss me off. Yes, they are also taking a reasonable time to do things when you don't consider the clueless nonsense they post.

I backed this thing because I want to see it made. It is one of only two KS I have backed, I don't like the inherent risks of backing projects but for me, to see this made, I put in a lot of money.
Hold them accountable? Yes!

Giving support to 'gentlemen' that only want to see the company burn and your dollars, too, because they didn't get their toys right away? Think about it.

Warboss and Talizvar covered most of the arguments, but I'd just like to address the section I bolded, with one question.

How can they be held accountable?

While I agree that legal action is likely more trouble than it's worth, and if successful will probably screw backers and potentially bankrupt the company, it's clear that polite askings get no response (as evidenced by several people on the inside asking). It's clear heated complaints get no response. It's clear aggressive attacks get no response. The whole point is that some people have gotten to the stage where PB's refusal to be accountable has (allegedly) caused them to go the only route left that'll make PB accountable.

That it's the nuclear option is sad if the suit does go forward, but some backers clearly think they've got nothing left to lose. PB could have circumvented it quite easily, but have chosen not to (or are incapable of doing so). Maybe it'll be the kick in the pants they need, given no other prodding has worked? Maybe they'll settle with the aggrieved party, and continue with business as usual until the next group of people finally hit their breaking point? Or maybe they'll fight and lose, and everything will go straight to hell.

But as long as PB aren't forced legally or financially to do something, it's clear that they don't give a crap about complaints. They've already got the backer's money. So, back to the point, besides the potential lawsuit, how can they be held to account?

Yeah, my point with that is that selling new items via the traditional route isn't going to allow them to just funnel the cash 100% into RRPGT like they're able to do with almost no strings attached kickstarter money. The new purchases are eligible for refunds for at least 6 months even with paypal now so they can't just hand wave those customers away with vague promises and platitudes unlike on kickstarter. They'll have to make due with the profit from those items after actually paying for them themselves, storage costs, and labor associated with them.

In the end, if they truly are out of money because they banked on the success of wave 1 after consistently doing their best to piss backers off, what choice do they have? That "we're out of money" scenario is the only plausible excuse I can think of for them taking 6 months to ship the non-NA wave 1 pledges out. I mean they could simply come clean and be honest about the whole CURRENT situation but lets try to keep this discussion a bit more grounded in reality and not go there. They've so far only come "clean" about what Ninja division already let "slip" a full year ago.

The worst/best case (as in both at the same time) scenario is that they finally update us on wave 2 AFTER gencon where they'll likely sell a bunch of stuff at 100% msrp and have some cash to spend on actually getting wave 2 a bit closer.

They are unwilling to enter an adult discussion so there is no real alternative, threats are "unreasonable" so demonstrated actions with a promise of their continuation unless status is divulged is it.

Worst thing I can say is "Don't make me make you my hobby.". When it devolves to getting on a high horse for consumer injustice it is a mixed feeling.

My rights for equitable trade have been violated and the terms of that trade were dishonest (timeline: 2 years so far, not the promised 3 months prior to funded). The terms for shipment cost were changed after the agreed KS funding. The product was decided to be split shipments after being funded and a very possible push to charge more for shipping: not my problem. KS backers were to get their shipment before retail: my retail got theirs 1 day before mine in Canada no less.

There is zero reason to give them any latitude: poor communication is the least of their problems. If they were any normal supplier they would get a note of "do not source" and a debit to their account for late shipment and administrative fees.

And honestly, what is the time line for 'action' even going to be?

I ask that rhetorically, as it will vary from person to person. Apparently taking 1 extra year for partial delivery wasn't the turning point.

2 years late isn't enough?

How about 3? Are we allowed to be frustrated and being proceedings as available then?

4?

A day before the statute of limitations would run out in the event any of this BS was considered a criminal matter? Would that impact any civil proceedings?

Honestly, after so much bullgak was coughed up about litigation in the past, if some people want to go ahead and push forward, I wish them luck. If they want the weight of as many backers as possible, I might even add my name and info to that list. I sincerely doubt any court is going to award 'fat stacks' over a couple hundred bucks (even a couple grand) in MIA product, so it seems having the most people on board to consolidate that a ton of people have been ripped off might be the safer approach, but that's just a perspective of a layperson here. If one of our more legally inclined folks disagrees, I shall stand corrected.

But coming back to my original point, they took money under rock solid pretenses of being so far along and so prepared and so ready to go. It wasn't until months after the PM closed and they got another injection of sweet, sweet cash that they began to admit that perhaps they weren't quite as ready as they thought.

If PB is out of money it's starting to show. You can buy four robofail RPG books for $30 right now.

It boggles the mind how accepting some people can be of Palladiums behaviour.

I mean there have been what? 4 updates in recent weeks which is the most they've ever done since PB took over the reins for updates, and NONE of them gave much info about wave 2 at all despite everyone clamoring for wave 2 info. All we know is that it's in progress and 'production. I guess I can see why backers would be miffed.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
If PB is out of money it's starting to show. You can buy four robofail RPG books for $30 right now.

Is that direct from palladium? That's quite a savings (unless it is the stupid little manga versions).

Morgan Vening wrote:
But as long as PB aren't forced legally or financially to do something, it's clear that they don't give a crap about complaints. They've already got the backer's money. So, back to the point, besides the potential lawsuit, how can they be held to account?

Credit card chargebacks against the balance of product not delivered. For example, I could chargeback $40 for the Monster, as it was not delivered as promised, and then let AmEx fight it out.

This tactic was very effective at forcing Battlefront to address issues in the Dust KS.

Really, lawsuit or chargeback, they both amount to the same lack of confidence that the creator will ever deliver, so might as well pull the trigger and try to get some money back.

 warboss wrote:

 Cypher-xv wrote:
If PB is out of money it's starting to show. You can buy four robofail RPG books for $30 right now.

Is that direct from palladium? That's quite a savings (unless it is the stupid little manga versions).

I saw it on HG's Facebook page.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
If PB is out of money it's starting to show. You can buy four robofail RPG books for $30 right now.

What would be really telling is if they drop actual RRT product. But I think they are hoping it is a hot product and brings in the money. They approach GW prices without the player base (unless they include B-tech and even then).

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Credit card chargebacks against the balance of product not delivered. For example, I could chargeback $40 for the Monster, as it was not delivered as promised, and then let AmEx fight it out.

Depends on the credit card. Some will do it, some will make you fight for it, some have very strict limitations. People were running into 3-6 month limitations regularly back when it became apparent that Dec 2013 was an impossibility.

I imagine the last year and a half won't have helped much in that regard.

It's an avenue to try, but it's by no means a catchall solution.

If anything, just having the reports of so many chargebacks on their credit card account would set of a flag for the credit company and thereby get Palladium's attention in a way that they can't just ignore like the kickstarter comments, private messages to them on KS, their facebook page, phone calls, emails, and forum posts on their forums... you know, all the stuff they have been ignoring because they can.

Getting back the add on cash we put in certainly wouldn't hurt.

3 MAC II's, 2 Armored VT packs, 1 VEF/1D pack, and 1 Officer's Booster Sled

So that's $220 US in add ons alone between my two friends and I. $90 back for my personal contributions wouldn't be unwelcome.

But I highly doubt that's going to happen anytime soon.

 Cypher-xv wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Cypher-xv wrote:
If PB is out of money it's starting to show. You can buy four robofail RPG books for $30 right now.

Is that direct from palladium? That's quite a savings (unless it is the stupid little manga versions).

I saw it on HG's Facebook page.

Ah, thanks. I know at least two of three of those books came out in manga form initially (all but the new gen) and two were later redone (macross and shadow chronicles) but I can't tell from the pic which version they are. It's a good deal if you don't mind stats that make no sense to be used with rules that are cobbled together and barely hanging on after 30 years. The art for palladium was surprisingly nice (especially the macross book and shadow books) but the new gen one is god awful in both art and layout. I can't comment on the southern cross one as I don't have it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:
Getting back the add on cash we put in certainly wouldn't hurt.

I hope folks do it simply to get palladium's attention back towards the product in a way that they just can't ignore. I don't think that folks will actually get any money back after two years but the threat of having their corporate credit rep tarnished might get them (along with the perennial joke of a "kickstarter lawsuit") to finally get off their asses, put down their dice bags and con exclusive upcoming minis, and give us the update that they promised 4 months ago.

 Forar wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Credit card chargebacks against the balance of product not delivered. For example, I could chargeback $40 for the Monster, as it was not delivered as promised, and then let AmEx fight it out.

Depends on the credit card. Some will do it, some will make you fight for it, some have very strict limitations. People were running into 3-6 month limitations regularly back when it became apparent that Dec 2013 was an impossibility.

I imagine the last year and a half won't have helped much in that regard.

It's an avenue to try, but it's by no means a catchall solution.

Oh, it's definitely not perfect.

But suppose 1% or 2% of the 5,000+ backers call their CC company and file dispute. That's over 50+, 100+ chargeback attempts that the CC companies see. That starts raising red flags on the financial side, which starts the wheels moving. Potentially very quickly. The difference is that AmEx has a really big stick, and can actually rob Peter to pay Paul out of Palladium's CC balance. This can affect current financials, and start to impact their lines of credit.

As opposed to legal stuff, which bleeds the company dry over several months of responding to the lawsuit, until some sort of judgement is rendered.

Either way, it's a disaster that PB should have to take very seriously. Or course, if they would just Update meaningfully on Wave 2, all of this unpleasantness can be avoided.

The reason there have been no real wave two updates is because the fan friends advised Kevin to stop posting because of all the negativity they conjure up. I don't think they realize it's having the opposite effect. Look at this from the big update.

"To be honest, we have been so savaged for the many delays and changing release dates in the past, that we are afraid to offer release dates or certain details until we are sure of them. That has resulted in fewer updates over the past few months. In fact, I have had several advisors tell me not to even say that we are trying hard for an end of 2015 release for Wave Two."

 Cypher-xv wrote:
The reason there have been no real wave two updates is because the fan friends advised Kevin to stop posting because of all the negativity they conjure up. I don't think they realize it's having the opposite effect. Look at this from the big update.

Neither they nor palladium care. It really is as simple as that (I know, preaching to the quoir...). Palladium (and Kevin specifically) expect to be patted on the back and given a "that's ok, you'll get 'em next time, tiger!" pep talk from the folks who they continuously let down. When they don't get that after a failure, the surrogate mommies (fan friends) just tell him to ignore those meanies instead of actually encouraging him to face the facts that he DID fail, it IS his fault, and to actually come up with a concrete plan to DO better that he can share with others that depend on him. Instead, the fan friend everything is awesome circle just enables the next failure sadly. Remember, PalladiumTM is only guilty of loving all of us and trusting ex-employees and partners too much.

n815e wrote:Again, their communication sucks. They are public relations morons.
That doesn't mean that realistic expectations shouldn't exist on our part. I post this to give some perspective, to remind those of us that are reasonable people that we shouldn't fly off the handle. Yes, they piss me off. Yes, they are also taking a reasonable time to do things when you don't consider the clueless nonsense they post.

I backed this thing because I want to see it made. It is one of only two KS I have backed, I don't like the inherent risks of backing projects but for me, to see this made, I put in a lot of money.
Hold them accountable? Yes!

Giving support to 'gentlemen' that only want to see the company burn and your dollars, too, because they didn't get their toys right away? Think about it.

Mechanoid Space..... 20+ years later.

 n815e wrote:
It is, though. The only reason we are aware of the delays and such is because this is a kickstarter. If they had gone the route of making this thing with their own money none of this would have seemed out of the ordinary.

But they didn't. If they had gone that route we wouldn't have paid two years (or more) in advance, which is the real problem here. Were this not a KS, if I had preordered it two years in advance I would be equally pissed. Or maybe even more pissed than now, truth be told.

If they have risked their own money instead of ours, none of us (or well, most of us wouldn't) be argueing about this. We would be buying or not buying according with the perceived value of their stuff. But they didn't.

What I mean to say is that when you go into KS, you know what you're getting into, and that it is a PR effort. Or at least you should know. It's not, and it shouldn't be, free money.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
The reason there have been no real wave two updates is because the fan friends advised Kevin to stop posting because of all the negativity they conjure up. I don't think they realize it's having the opposite effect. Look at this from the big update.

"To be honest, we have been so savaged for the many delays and changing release dates in the past, that we are afraid to offer release dates or certain details until we are sure of them. That has resulted in fewer updates over the past few months. In fact, I have had several advisors tell me not to even say that we are trying hard for an end of 2015 release for Wave Two."

I'm guessing what the advisors actually advised was " don't lie".

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
But as long as PB aren't forced legally or financially to do something, it's clear that they don't give a crap about complaints. They've already got the backer's money. So, back to the point, besides the potential lawsuit, how can they be held to account?

Credit card chargebacks against the balance of product not delivered. For example, I could chargeback $40 for the Monster, as it was not delivered as promised, and then let AmEx fight it out.

This tactic was very effective at forcing Battlefront to address issues in the Dust KS.

Really, lawsuit or chargeback, they both amount to the same lack of confidence that the creator will ever deliver, so might as well pull the trigger and try to get some money back.

Do you have any citation you can offer that the chargebacks were in any way effective in bringing about the resolution with BF/Dust? From my recollection of events, Paolo/Dust were advising backers to start looking into chargebacks for months (Feb to May) and nothing changed between the companies. Then when it seems they are at an impasse Battlefront actually puts out a (limited, pro-rated) refund option for the backers and within a day if not hours Dust does a complete 180 and things get rolling-ish again. Could be the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but I don't think chargebacks were what brought things around so much as Dust seeing that pot of money going away and knowing they'd likely not get a large chunk of it back.

Sliding away from the off-topic part, I'm not sure the CC companies are going to do a whole lot with the timeframe involved. It certainly couldn't hurt to contact them to raise awareness as if enough people complain it may do something. Now, Palladium might be in such a sorry state that the credit hit doesn't matter, but a slim chance is better than no chance.

Stepping back to the broader picture though, I'm really not seeing a way to resolve this that doesn't involve Kevin waking up to reality and communicating openly and honestly without his weasel words and vague double-speak. Given that he's successfully avoided reality for the past 30 years, I'm not sure he's going to start now. Hopefully for the backer's sake this is just a situation of him being completely oblivious and things are proceeding in PB's inimitable fashion.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
The reason there have been no real wave two updates is because the fan friends advised Kevin to stop posting because of all the negativity they conjure up. I don't think they realize it's having the opposite effect. Look at this from the big update.
"To be honest, we have been so savaged for the many delays and changing release dates in the past, that we are afraid to offer release dates or certain details until we are sure of them. That has resulted in fewer updates over the past few months. In fact, I have had several advisors tell me not to even say that we are trying hard for an end of 2015 release for Wave Two."

First of all he should not be a "hero" and look into his crystal ball and hazard a guess if it is not based on a freaking Microsoft Project timeline or something that has scheduling of core dependencies. If he outlines times for each "step" he will not get crucified if specific items vary.

The proper thing he can do that is 100% accurate is give a state of the union of status for each model:
(Big list, figure I am done "spamming" the forum.)Any budgeting being figured out anywhere in this?
Figure out if an overly greedy retail run may burn a big chunk of funds?
Any ideas of the most effective means to fill a cargo container since that is a big cost? i.e. if initial projection turns out to be 1 and 1/2 cargo containers they REALLY should fill two.
Run out of money and figure out you want more for shipping?
If they are "afraid to offer release dates or certain details until we are sure of them" with their poor organization skills this is exactly the end result: nothing to say.

They have not been afraid of saying all manner of silly things, releasing details of what is done would be the least risky of their communication options.
No information will always lead to assuming the worst, they need to figure that out, they have left us thinking Wave 2 is no more than a 3D model on a computer.

Too much to fit on the Perogi Palace napkin...ergo it's too hard for Palladium. Next idea? If a plan doesn't fit neatly into the 4 step "profit" meme project planning method, it seemingly won't be adopted up North at Robotech Tactics HQ judging from the end results and progress reports.

I second your (meaningless as backers) vote to publish exactly what you stated though.

 Krinsath wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Credit card chargebacks against the balance of product not delivered. For example, I could chargeback $40 for the Monster, as it was not delivered as promised, and then let AmEx fight it out.

This tactic was very effective at forcing Battlefront to address issues in the Dust KS.

Do you have any citation you can offer that the chargebacks were in any way effective in bringing about the resolution with BF/Dust?

You're asking for an official press release from BF that their credit was impacted by customer chargebacks, and that they therefore agreed to honor the commitments that they had neglected? Is that what you're asking for?

We read the same things. As I read it, nothing happened until after DS started pushing CC chargebacks as a tactic.