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Well, the card game. But it something PB should take heed of. They won't, but they should.

Someone on FB posted this interesting article.


""Robotech RPG Tactics: The Continuing Saga
2 Comments
I have zero idea if what I am writing about is having any sort of impact. I hope that, if nothing else, people who are interested in purchasing Robotech RPG Tactics read the various reviews (mine and others-become an informed consumer) and get information about the game before they commit the money. I also hope that, in some way, these posts about Robotech RPG Tactics and the Kickstarter campaign are informing people about…well…

How not to run a Kickstarter
Palladium Books in relation to this Kickstarter
Robotech RPG Tactics
Potential ways to get your voice heard when a Kickstarter goes sideways
Contact the company via email, keep a copy of all emails sent and received
Call the company, keep a log of all calls made and received
Write the company, again keep a copy of all letters sent and received
Lodge a complaint with Kickstarter-even though they maintain a hands-off policy-lodging a complaint is a step and check-box in that “did you try everything you could”
If these don’t work, then time to consider the next step, which could be legal. If you go legal, you will have a record of your efforts to communicate with the company
Thirty plus days have passed since the last update from Palladium Books on the status of Wave 2. Gencon came and went, also without mention from Palladium Books. Now when I say update, I mean the updates posted to the Kickstarter that are supposed to keep backers up to date on the status of the Kickstarter. Palladium Books has posted some news through their email spam ad sheets sent out every Friday. In fact, without the spam I and other backers would have never found out a damn thing.

News that most people wanted to know, the status of Wave 2, was absent. A few sentences here and there about meeting with this person or that person and how Palladium Books is hoping or working to get part counts on models down, but no concrete details. Given that on July 10th, this was posted, “As for Wave 2, I’m working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is in its development, but that’s going to take some time. The short version is that some have been approved for tooling, some are still pending minor changes, and a couple are being reworked to reduce part counts while preserving detail. It’s going painfully slowly.” the lack of a detailed breakdown is worrisome.

Word from Gencon, is that Robotech RPG Tactics was put on 30% sale and stayed on sale for the entire convention. I do not know how common that is at Gencon, but when we go to conventions the sales crop up on the last day, when people realize they have to move everything. The convention exclusives that Palladium Books were more than happy to sell to backers, did not sell as well as hoped-that is direct from Palladium Books. The spam ad sheets also have Robotech RPG Tactics on sale. So if you were thinking about buying, now is a good time, just keep in mind that the rest of the game has yet to be produced.

Meanwhile on the Kickstarter discussion page, legal action. Legal action has been a background conversation for a months now. It has been hard to gauge how serious anyone is; at least it was hard to gauge how serious anyone was. Over the last month, the conversation has gotten more serious with encouragement to others, such as links to the Better Business Bureau and Michigan Attorney General. To go along with those links, links to articles, such as this one, where a Kickstarter was sued, have appeared.

What will happen next? No idea. Palladium Books remains tight lipped and uncommunicative with backers. Some backers are frustrated enough to openly talk about suing Palladium Books. Many others have washed their hands of the Kickstarter. Speculation runs wild about status of Robotech RPG Tactics and Wave 2…from never going to happen to out of money. The only “solid” information is the standard line of continuing to support the game from Palladium Books.""

Yes. It's all looking rosy for backers from Washington.

The only benefit I see as a UK backer is that a judgement from a US state may increase the chance of a UK wide judgement following suit.

I have no idea if that will help backers from other US states, I hope it will. I don't believe, however, that it does anything worth crowing about this side of the pond. If I hear about a class action here in the UK, I may just join it. But I don't believe the number of backers will be enough to make that a reality - especially when you consider that Scotland, Irelend, and indeed Wales, may have to go through sepperate processes and the number of backers in each location would therefore be much smaller than a UK-wide action.

I just want to see pb burn.

The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.

I let it ride on my site out of curiosity and it's not right to censor simple things like this. Glad I did since it pretty much confirms that others feel as I do. Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.

You're having a laugh if you think you'll ever see Wave 2.

The chances of PB actually still having the finance in place to fund production more than 2 years after raising it are incredibly slim, to the point of ridiculous. To do so would mean the company would have to have an incredibly disciplined hold on its cash flow and reserves, together with the forethought to ringfence that finance early on.

Discipline and forethought are both things PB have proved admirably that they don't have. At all.

A while back I was in the 'meh' camp. But now I look around and I actively resent having wasted a few hundred dollars on this. It's not the amount (I've spent far more since), it's the fecklessness of the company that really does raise my ire. So no. Don't really care about Wave 2.

I don't want to see this sort of farce in any way viewed as acceptable - not personally, and not legally. Taking people's money means you have a responsibility to those people, and are answerable to them.

Attempting to peddle other wares in an obvious attempt to raise the money is laughable - this might have provided a significant cash injection if progress was made on the outstanding rewards people have already been promised. As there's no progress being shown the only assumption that can be drawn is that there's no progress. The only reason for no progress is no money.

In puppy terms, PB have shat on the carpet, and need their nose rubbing in it badly. Maybe they'll learn from it, maybe they'll go out of business. Either suits me.

PB has ALWAYS been strapped for cash and are always looking for a fast buck this is my #1 go-to fact about them.

Why I am willing to "delude" myself that I may see Wave 2 is the expectation that PB does not want to close the door to kickstarter as a future means of income forever.
Plus they have "committed" to doing it and gosh-darn it will get done... the timeline however may be a bit... extended.

The RRT kickstarter I am sure is the most money they had ever seen and it surprised them.
Guaranteed they will be looking back on that again and wondering what else they can get out of fool... um, "customers".

Who knows, they may also clue-in that trying to sell product as "new" usually means not 6months to a year old, so getting wave 2 in may work to get some more sales going.

The GHQ stuff may not do as well because it is metal (who does that now? ) and they got us boycotting it due to wave 2 rage.
I am sure they are somewhat disappointed because I could see them hanging their hat on this method for releasing the future generations of Robotech.
These new fangled plastic molded models are too much work for what they are used to.

The very last "excuse" I have for PB / Kevin getting wave 2 done is that there is no clear group / person he has footed the blame to for this bit.
If he thought it just was not happening, the big wind-up for throwing someone under the bus would be in motion now.

This whole project is the most attention they have had in over a decade and let's face it: they love attention.
I can easily see Kevin wanting to draw this out as long as possible.

Many conflicting factors at work but they all seem to point to it being some measure of self interest to get Wave 2 done.
Hopefully they have deluded themselves into thinking they are "awesome" and we would not abandon them completely when we get all our stuff.

 Mike1975 wrote:
The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.

Yup. It's definitely apples and oranges with that. All that the Washington lawsuit does is show a lawsuit CAN happen, but the circumstances are so dissimilar that it's almost not worth mentioning. This is not that. That's not to say it can't or won't be successful, but it'd definitely be uncharted territory, and likely cause a rewriting of Kickstarter policy, whereas the Washington one didn't. It was clear cut fraud.

 Mike1975 wrote:
I let it ride on my site out of curiosity and it's not right to censor simple things like this. Glad I did since it pretty much confirms that others feel as I do. Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.

Doubt they'd be looking forward to it, as it'd quite possibly be the end of Palladium (depending on costs/judgments), and while certain things might not be transferable (particularly the licenses themselves, in particular Robotech), the entire backlog would be. Meaning even if Kevin's personal finances are unaffected, he'd lose control of Rifts, BtS, Splicers, etc. And even those licensed properties would just revert to their original holders, but not the stuff that was created for those properties. That'd be in the hands of the liquidators. So even if Kevin were to start a new company, he'd have to reacquire those licenses (and do so while avoiding collusion), and have to start from scratch, because if someone purchases the assets as a lot amount (rather than piecemeal), they'll hold the copyright on those books, but be unable to further publish them (unless THEY get the license). But even if they don't get the license, as Kevin is so fond of incessantly reminding people, they're still all copyrighted/trademarked, and so Kevin won't be able to print/reference/use them, either.

At least that's how I see the legal/financial landscape. Individual judgments (if succsessful, and that's a big if) may be survivable, but it's got a chance of snowballing quickly. But a similar judgment (though still, a completely different situation) to the Washington case, where the AG sued based on behalf of all backers, then PB is screwed, because I don't think they've got close to that amount in liquid assets. Meaning a firesale on stock/IP's, which might keep the company out of bankruptcy, but a shell of it's former self.

A lot of it will depend on if Palladium have done something shady. The rumormill has put forward that MAYBE they used the funds for general corporate expenditures (paying general pool salaries, utilities, etc rather than applied costs), for other product (Northern Gun is the usual example), or for additional corporate stock (using KS funds for materials to be sold retail). If none of those have happened, as long as all money raised was spent on this project (directly or in associated costs), it's quite possible the game dies, but PB survives. That'd be a huge hit to PB's already shaky reputation, but that hasn't bothered them so far. The true ironic thing would be that in that situation, there'd be no legal reason (AFAICS) why PB couldn't then spend it's own money to do Wave 2/Gen 2/Gen 3 items themselves, though arguably they'd have to do them from scratch (as the current work would belong to the defunct KS). And that'd REALLY make the natives restless, seeing stuff they'd paid for, released under different circumstances. But again, PB don't seem to give a crap about their public reputation. And it'd depend on the judgment put in place. If it put a lien on future product under the same license, it wouldn't be worth PB's effort.

All of the above is assuming my understanding of copyright and bankruptcy law isn't completely bananas batdrek crazy, or I haven't missed an important loophole.

winterdyne wrote:
You're having a laugh if you think you'll ever see Wave 2.

The chances of PB actually still having the finance in place to fund production more than 2 years after raising it are incredibly slim, to the point of ridiculous. To do so would mean the company would have to have an incredibly disciplined hold on its cash flow and reserves, together with the forethought to ringfence that finance early on.

Discipline and forethought are both things PB have proved admirably that they don't have. At all.

A while back I was in the 'meh' camp. But now I look around and I actively resent having wasted a few hundred dollars on this. It's not the amount (I've spent far more since), it's the fecklessness of the company that really does raise my ire. So no. Don't really care about Wave 2.

I don't want to see this sort of farce in any way viewed as acceptable - not personally, and not legally. Taking people's money means you have a responsibility to those people, and are answerable to them.

Attempting to peddle other wares in an obvious attempt to raise the money is laughable - this might have provided a significant cash injection if progress was made on the outstanding rewards people have already been promised. As there's no progress being shown the only assumption that can be drawn is that there's no progress. The only reason for no progress is no money.

In puppy terms, PB have shat on the carpet, and need their nose rubbing in it badly. Maybe they'll learn from it, maybe they'll go out of business. Either suits me.

Never said the hopes were high there spiffy, just that they go to zero when a lawsuit occurs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.

Yup. It's definitely apples and oranges with that. All that the Washington lawsuit does is show a lawsuit CAN happen, but the circumstances are so dissimilar that it's almost not worth mentioning. This is not that. That's not to say it can't or won't be successful, but it'd definitely be uncharted territory, and likely cause a rewriting of Kickstarter policy, whereas the Washington one didn't. It was clear cut fraud.

 Mike1975 wrote:
I let it ride on my site out of curiosity and it's not right to censor simple things like this. Glad I did since it pretty much confirms that others feel as I do. Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.

Doubt they'd be looking forward to it, as it'd quite possibly be the end of Palladium (depending on costs/judgments), and while certain things might not be transferable (particularly the licenses themselves, in particular Robotech), the entire backlog would be. Meaning even if Kevin's personal finances are unaffected, he'd lose control of Rifts, BtS, Splicers, etc. And even those licensed properties would just revert to their original holders, but not the stuff that was created for those properties. That'd be in the hands of the liquidators. So even if Kevin were to start a new company, he'd have to reacquire those licenses (and do so while avoiding collusion), and have to start from scratch, because if someone purchases the assets as a lot amount (rather than piecemeal), they'll hold the copyright on those books, but be unable to further publish them (unless THEY get the license). But even if they don't get the license, as Kevin is so fond of incessantly reminding people, they're still all copyrighted/trademarked, and so Kevin won't be able to print/reference/use them, either.

At least that's how I see the legal/financial landscape. Individual judgments (if succsessful, and that's a big if) may be survivable, but it's got a chance of snowballing quickly. But a similar judgment (though still, a completely different situation) to the Washington case, where the AG sued based on behalf of all backers, then PB is screwed, because I don't think they've got close to that amount in liquid assets. Meaning a firesale on stock/IP's, which might keep the company out of bankruptcy, but a shell of it's former self.

A lot of it will depend on if Palladium have done something shady. The rumormill has put forward that MAYBE they used the funds for general corporate expenditures (paying general pool salaries, utilities, etc rather than applied costs), for other product (Northern Gun is the usual example), or for additional corporate stock (using KS funds for materials to be sold retail). If none of those have happened, as long as all money raised was spent on this project (directly or in associated costs), it's quite possible the game dies, but PB survives. That'd be a huge hit to PB's already shaky reputation, but that hasn't bothered them so far. The true ironic thing would be that in that situation, there'd be no legal reason (AFAICS) why PB couldn't then spend it's own money to do Wave 2/Gen 2/Gen 3 items themselves, though arguably they'd have to do them from scratch (as the current work would belong to the defunct KS). And that'd REALLY make the natives restless, seeing stuff they'd paid for, released under different circumstances. But again, PB don't seem to give a crap about their public reputation. And it'd depend on the judgment put in place. If it put a lien on future product under the same license, it wouldn't be worth PB's effort.

All of the above is assuming my understanding of copyright and bankruptcy law isn't completely bananas batdrek crazy, or I haven't missed an important loophole.

It'll all be determined in court. The legal costs alone could kill any chance of wave 2 and many people understand and agree with me on that. More than I thought would honestly.

 Mike1975 wrote:
The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.

The mantra from last year was 'lawl it's all but impossible to get a judgement over a Kickstarter'.

Until now there are.

Even tangential as they might be, I would be concerned about being made an example of/setting precedent, if I were PB.

Bluntly, they need to drop an update with some fething content and they need to do it yesterday (well, 5 months ago or so, but point being, it is *long* overdue).

From my read of people, it's not just that they are taking their sweet time on this (2 years late, maybe 3 if this drifts into 2016, is pretty damned late), but that they've clammed up tight after telling us info would be coming in February, and then again in July, before suddenly there's 'nothing physical to show' us. So show us some digital progress, damnit!

I let it ride on my site out of curiosity and it's not right to censor simple things like this. Glad I did since it pretty much confirms that others feel as I do.

Yeah Mike, real shocker there. ;-)

Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.

Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?

If they can't afford to toss someone $40-80 (remember, we know that the vast majority of backers are in the US, so while international shipping complicates things, that's only around 1/4-1/5 of the backers) plus the value of any add ons (the average backer contributed $270 before the pledge manager, I'm guessing Showdowns or BC's + a pile of add ons were popular choices), then they really are in serious trouble, and not because any backer or 10 backers or 100 backers asked them to gak or get off the pot. I'm sure there's more math to be done, and that some donkey caves would've accept anything less than a full refund, but the point is that it even in aggregate, a couple of grand to shut up and get rid of dozens of the most vocal types seems like a damned fine risk/reward ratio at this point.

Not to mention that it still becomes a loan that they didn't have to repay for 2.5 years, and saves them on shipping. Hell, at this point I'd expect that international backers being refunded would flat out be saving them money, compared to shipping a second round of boxes out into the world.

Remember, we're constantly being told that the dissatisfied folks are a tiny minority of vocal donkey caves.

Again, it's not necessarily a case of being issued a refund.

I'm not sure how it works stateside, but here a court order can (and often simply does) state a course of action that is mandatory for a party (such as demonstrate evidence of progress within a certain, specified timeframe). It doesn't necessarily involve punitive measures, though breach of order can and does. Such simple orders generally don't incur much in the way of costs, unless they are contested (which usually by the time they hit court they're not going to be as the lawyers have already come to a determination of who's at fault and will have advised settlement if a loss was likely).

For example, you take a contractor to court for doing a shoddy job. The court could order a full or partial refund, or could order that the job be made good at the contractor's expense. Failing to do so (usually a timeframe is set by the court) results in far harsher judgements.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.

Yup. It's definitely apples and oranges with that. All that the Washington lawsuit does is show a lawsuit CAN happen, but the circumstances are so dissimilar that it's almost not worth mentioning. This is not that. That's not to say it can't or won't be successful, but it'd definitely be uncharted territory, and likely cause a rewriting of Kickstarter policy, whereas the Washington one didn't. It was clear cut fraud.

Actually Morgan while the Washington case was being decided kickstarter pledges were being delivered according to comments and posts on that kickstarter forum page.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
I let it ride on my site out of curiosity and it's not right to censor simple things like this. Glad I did since it pretty much confirms that others feel as I do. Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.

Doubt they'd be looking forward to it, as it'd quite possibly be the end of Palladium (depending on costs/judgments), and while certain things might not be transferable (particularly the licenses themselves, in particular Robotech), the entire backlog would be. Meaning even if Kevin's personal finances are unaffected, he'd lose control of Rifts, BtS, Splicers, etc. And even those licensed properties would just revert to their original holders, but not the stuff that was created for those properties. That'd be in the hands of the liquidators. So even if Kevin were to start a new company, he'd have to reacquire those licenses (and do so while avoiding collusion), and have to start from scratch, because if someone purchases the assets as a lot amount (rather than piecemeal), they'll hold the copyright on those books, but be unable to further publish them (unless THEY get the license). But even if they don't get the license, as Kevin is so fond of incessantly reminding people, they're still all copyrighted/trademarked, and so Kevin won't be able to print/reference/use them, either.

At least that's how I see the legal/financial landscape. Individual judgments (if succsessful, and that's a big if) may be survivable, but it's got a chance of snowballing quickly. But a similar judgment (though still, a completely different situation) to the Washington case, where the AG sued based on behalf of all backers, then PB is screwed, because I don't think they've got close to that amount in liquid assets. Meaning a firesale on stock/IP's, which might keep the company out of bankruptcy, but a shell of it's former self.

A lot of it will depend on if Palladium have done something shady. The rumormill has put forward that MAYBE they used the funds for general corporate expenditures (paying general pool salaries, utilities, etc rather than applied costs), for other product (Northern Gun is the usual example), or for additional corporate stock (using KS funds for materials to be sold retail). If none of those have happened, as long as all money raised was spent on this project (directly or in associated costs), it's quite possible the game dies, but PB survives. That'd be a huge hit to PB's already shaky reputation, but that hasn't bothered them so far. The true ironic thing would be that in that situation, there'd be no legal reason (AFAICS) why PB couldn't then spend it's own money to do Wave 2/Gen 2/Gen 3 items themselves, though arguably they'd have to do them from scratch (as the current work would belong to the defunct KS). And that'd REALLY make the natives restless, seeing stuff they'd paid for, released under different circumstances. But again, PB don't seem to give a crap about their public reputation. And it'd depend on the judgment put in place. If it put a lien on future product under the same license, it wouldn't be worth PB's effort.

All of the above is assuming my understanding of copyright and bankruptcy law isn't completely bananas batdrek crazy, or I haven't missed an important loophole.

there are several ways this could break down:

1: if PB faces only individual lawsuits, it could hurt them financially, will they survive? it all depends on how many sue them, since each suit brings with it awards/damages, court costs, lawyer fees and such.

2: if the AG gets involved, if the AG gets involved its game over for PB since if the AG takes them to court and they are found guilty, they can get fines of up to $1,500 for each backer, whether the backer wants to or not.

3: if the FTC gets involved, this will be the double whammy, if both the AG and the FTC get involved.

4: if PB goes broke and files bankruptcy, first thing that will happen is they lose the Robotech License from HG, furthermore any licensed properties owned by PB will be auctioned off where the winning bidder can use them how ever they want, since they will own the License and IP rights, heres where it used to get funky is that other names associated with said properties would also have a say in how they were used in future matters, problem is all of PB's writers and authors and so forth signed a little agreement which gave PB sole possesion of said writings for a small denominational fee, which means PB owns it lock, stock, and barrel, but anywhoo, the IP/license rights are sold off PB cannot work in them anymore, they no longer own the rights to Rifts or whatever, they now belong to the new owner.

 Forar wrote:


Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?

If they can't afford to toss someone $40-80 (remember, we know that the vast majority of backers are in the US, so while international shipping complicates things, that's only around 1/4-1/5 of the backers) plus the value of any add ons (the average backer contributed $270 before the pledge manager, I'm guessing Showdowns or BC's + a pile of add ons were popular choices), then they really are in serious trouble, and not because any backer or 10 backers or 100 backers asked them to gak or get off the pot. I'm sure there's more math to be done, and that some donkey caves would've accept anything less than a full refund, but the point is that it even in aggregate, a couple of grand to shut up and get rid of dozens of the most vocal types seems like a damned fine risk/reward ratio at this point.

Not to mention that it still becomes a loan that they didn't have to repay for 2.5 years, and saves them on shipping. Hell, at this point I'd expect that international backers being refunded would flat out be saving them money, compared to shipping a second round of boxes out into the world.

Remember, we're constantly being told that the dissatisfied folks are a tiny minority of vocal donkey caves.

well except for one problem there Forar, if you read my copy of Kevin's response to my complaint to the BBB I posted in the Robotech Uncensored group you will have noted that Kevin gave full retail value for everything in the BC package and everything received, as his way of saying he owes us nothing, but by him doing so, he has also raised the value of the items not delivered, which makes me wonder if his lawyer ever read that response he sent, since he accuses me of leading the charge for people to file with the BBB which is not nice and sadly not true, my highlights have only been about what I am doing, nor was I the first one to post about sending in a complaint with the BBB.

*shrug*

If they were sensible, that'd be the olive branch I'd consider extending.

I never said they were entirely sensible people.

if they were, we wouldn't be in this position.

Edit: and the main thrust of my point is that it'd be vastly more reasonable to nip such things in the bud. If someone has a hate-boner for trying to drive them into the ground, that's beyond their control aside from defending themselves in court if and when that actually occurs.

But I imagine many of the frustrated people here would be content to get a proportional refund and to wash their hands of this thing, and that not only removes avenues of attack, it reduces the 'mob' in size, which can snowball out of control. Reduce the support structure, reduce the likelihood of people pursuing things ever further.

If they want to gamble in court, that's their prerogative.

 Forar wrote:
Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?

For those that had that, sure.

I feel like a stuck record here, but I paid $145 (Ish, CBA to dig harder for what I pledged for after all this time.) and so far have received a $5 (ish) set of decals. How much of that $140 am I due back? [$140. I didn't ask them to pay someone else for doing noting since promoting the POSSIBILITY of some robotech models. I should get back either what I expected for my pledge, or the money. I paid in £ so I could end up losing on the exchange rate either way, but KS have done nothing to encourage PB to get it out correctly or on time, so they ought to re-imburse the backers their fees on a project that has gone so far off track it's seriously in danger of falling of the edge.]

I mean, after all, if I'd gone to PB with the idea for this, paid them M$1.4, and got out of it what had been delivered, their backside would have been in court long ago for FRAUD. But because they had the idea, came to us for the same money, we have no comeback?

 Conrad Turner wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?

For those that had that, sure.

I feel like a stuck record here, but I paid $145 (Ish, CBA to dig harder for what I pledged for after all this time.) and so far have received a $5 (ish) set of decals. How much of that $140 am I due back? [$140. I didn't ask them to pay someone else for doing noting since promoting the POSSIBILITY of some robotech models. I should get back either what I expected for my pledge, or the money. I paid in £ so I could end up losing on the exchange rate either way, but KS have done nothing to encourage PB to get it out correctly or on time, so they ought to re-imburse the backers their fees on a project that has gone so far off track it's seriously in danger of falling of the edge.]

I mean, after all, if I'd gone to PB with the idea for this, paid them M$1.4, and got out of it what had been delivered, their backside would have been in court long ago for FRAUD. But because they had the idea, came to us for the same money, we have no comeback?

Add ons I'd expect to be repaid in full. $40 for a MAC-II with no MAC-II delivered equals $40 outstanding.

That section was entirely based on the partial delivery of the Battle Cry tier and multiples thereof.

Believe me, I empathize. My group paid $250 in add ons, and to date we've received 2 Destroid boxes out of it (Daedalus Attack, 2 Armored VT packs, VEF/1D pack, Eldare). That's nearly the average contribution outstanding in add ons alone, and even if my group accepted a partial return on the BC's, I'd expect that paid back in full.

$140 for a core box and the bonus baggy is one thing. Somewhere around $275 Canadian in other add ons missing is another entirely.

 Forar wrote:

Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?

I'd personally say that the value of what has been shipped so far should be proportional to the retail value that would be charged (or in the case of the nonexistant wave 2 stuff the KS add on prices). The core box is full of minis but it's MSRP is low compared with the add ons that we get so many of due to pledge goals. I'd be curious to see how much those remaining pledge goals are worth as dictated by the individual add on prices compared with what we've already gotten. My guess is that due to the relative "lack" of value of the add ons compared with the core box, palladium still has to deliver well over half the actual value of the KS by that metric.

Agreed, and I actually had a spreadsheet that sorted out the proportional value of what had been delivered based on retail and expected retail costs.

Of course, with the MSRP shooting up considerably for wave one (and retail dropping significantly as well), those numbers became a lot fuzzier, and the existence of things that don't really have an MSRP (the LE/KS-Con exclusives, even if they have a convention standard price, their limited availability messes with that a bit).

I'm just napkin math'ing out something that'd be reasonable enough for prime time. If they offered me a reasonable sum to skip out on my 3 BC's, I'd probably take it, and am pretty sure at least one of the other two guys would as well (maybe all three of us).

 Mike1975 wrote:

It'll all be determined in court. The legal costs alone could kill any chance of wave 2 and many people understand and agree with me on that. More than I thought would honestly.

I think you're misunderstanding things. Any reasonable person who is actually going through legal and formal steps (like filing complaints with the BBB) likely knows they're decreasing the chances of wave 2 being delivered to the backers as a whole but by being the squeaky wheel that they may get a bit of oil regardless. They just don't care because they're fed up with Palladium and because they think the overall chances of getting anything further are low enough to be worth taking the risk.

Asterios wrote:

well except for one problem there Forar, if you read my copy of Kevin's response to my complaint to the BBB I posted in the Robotech Uncensored group you will have noted that Kevin gave full retail value for everything in the BC package and everything received, as his way of saying he owes us nothing, but by him doing so, he has also raised the value of the items not delivered, which makes me wonder if his lawyer ever read that response he sent, since he accuses me of leading the charge for people to file with the BBB which is not nice and sadly not true, my highlights have only been about what I am doing, nor was I the first one to post about sending in a complaint with the BBB.

Any chance you could re-post that here?

Thanks!

 Conrad Turner wrote:


I feel like a stuck record here, but I paid $145 (Ish, CBA to dig harder for what I pledged for after all this time.) and so far have received a $5 (ish) set of decals. How much of that $140 am I due back? [$140. I didn't ask them to pay someone else for doing noting since promoting the POSSIBILITY of some robotech models. I should get back either what I expected for my pledge, or the money. I paid in £ so I could end up losing on the exchange rate either way, but KS have done nothing to encourage PB to get it out correctly or on time, so they ought to re-imburse the backers their fees on a project that has gone so far off track it's seriously in danger of falling of the edge.]

I mean, after all, if I'd gone to PB with the idea for this, paid them M$1.4, and got out of it what had been delivered, their backside would have been in court long ago for FRAUD. But because they had the idea, came to us for the same money, we have no comeback?

If you paid $145 and got $5, you're due $140 plus interest. That's my view. When you return something in any other venue, you don't subtract the stores fees for the credit cards, their employees salaries or electric bill accrued in the meantime, or anything else. If it went to court, I'd hope that just like in the Washington case that if it were decided against Palladium that they'd also have fines added to the judgement. The best solution, however, would be simply the actual realistic threat of a lawsuit filed from a reputable (and reliable) source like an Attorney General (sorry, Asterios, but you don't meet either criteria after years of crying wolf) like being served would galvanize Palladium into actually doing something. They fethed up, whether directly themselves (like with 2 years worth of post KS communication which is 100% Palladium's fault) or whether through their personally chosen subcontractors like Ninja Division. Did ND have some hand in the initial screwups? Probably.. they were the primary screwups in Relic Knights (and not CMON) from what I heard from (an admittedly CMON biased) source. Did palladium screw up the production in the TWO YEARS since? Very likely as well. Then through in a chinese factory that doesn't care and a licensor that is as screwed up (but confident as heck!) as all of the above. Palladium whether indirectly or directly fethed up; they're the ones who should be paying the price, not backers. If any potential lawsuit makes them get off their asses to get a bank loan and finance the rest of the line via the traditional methods that they would have had to have used prior to kickstarter (putting up their own property/IP as collateral), I consider that to be a fair and equitable resolution. I suspect that if they had their own property at risk instead of the money of others in limbo to use at will, wave 2 would have been out already.

I think it was President Truman that coined the phrase "the buck stops here" as a way of showing personal responsibility for what happened with the country. Palladium's name is the one on the kickstarter and they're the ones managing everything that went and goes on; the buck literally stops with them. Unfortunately, with Kevin Siembieda, the buck figuratively stop with him as well since he took it, cashed it, and will decide if and when he'll do anything further with it.

 Alpharius wrote:

Asterios wrote:

well except for one problem there Forar, if you read my copy of Kevin's response to my complaint to the BBB I posted in the Robotech Uncensored group you will have noted that Kevin gave full retail value for everything in the BC package and everything received, as his way of saying he owes us nothing, but by him doing so, he has also raised the value of the items not delivered, which makes me wonder if his lawyer ever read that response he sent, since he accuses me of leading the charge for people to file with the BBB which is not nice and sadly not true, my highlights have only been about what I am doing, nor was I the first one to post about sending in a complaint with the BBB.

Any chance you could re-post that here?

Thanks!

its in a PDF file and trying to figure out how to add a PDF file here ?

 warboss wrote:

 Conrad Turner wrote:


I feel like a stuck record here, but I paid $145 (Ish, CBA to dig harder for what I pledged for after all this time.) and so far have received a $5 (ish) set of decals. How much of that $140 am I due back? [$140. I didn't ask them to pay someone else for doing noting since promoting the POSSIBILITY of some robotech models. I should get back either what I expected for my pledge, or the money. I paid in £ so I could end up losing on the exchange rate either way, but KS have done nothing to encourage PB to get it out correctly or on time, so they ought to re-imburse the backers their fees on a project that has gone so far off track it's seriously in danger of falling of the edge.]

I mean, after all, if I'd gone to PB with the idea for this, paid them M$1.4, and got out of it what had been delivered, their backside would have been in court long ago for FRAUD. But because they had the idea, came to us for the same money, we have no comeback?

If you paid $145 and got $5, you're due $140 plus interest. That's my view. When you return something in any other venue, you don't subtract the stores fees for the credit cards, their employees salaries or electric bill accrued in the meantime, or anything else. If it went to court, I'd hope that just like in the Washington case that if it were decided against Palladium that they'd also have fines added to the judgement. The best solution, however, would be simply the actual realistic threat of a lawsuit filed from a reputable (and reliable) source like an Attorney General (sorry, Asterios, but you don't meet either criteria after years of crying wolf) like being served would galvanize Palladium into actually doing something. They fethed up, whether directly themselves (like with 2 years worth of post KS communication which is 100% Palladium's fault) or whether through their personally chosen subcontractors like Ninja Division. Did ND have some hand in the initial screwups? Probably.. they were the primary screwups in Relic Knights (and not CMON) from what I heard from (an admittedly CMON biased) source. Did palladium screw up the production in the TWO YEARS since? Very likely as well. Then through in a chinese factory that doesn't care and a licensor that is as screwed up (but confident as heck!) as all of the above. Palladium whether indirectly or directly fethed up; they're the ones who should be paying the price, not backers. If any potential lawsuit makes them get off their asses to get a bank loan and finance the rest of the line via the traditional methods that they would have had to have used prior to kickstarter (putting up their own property/IP as collateral), I consider that to be a fair and equitable resolution. I suspect that if they had their own property at risk instead of the money of others in limbo to use at will, wave 2 would have been out already.

I think it was President Truman that coined the phrase "the buck stops here" as a way of showing personal responsibility for what happened with the country. Palladium's name is the one on the kickstarter and they're the ones managing everything that went and goes on; the buck literally stops with them. Unfortunately, with Kevin Siembieda, the buck figuratively stop with him as well since he took it, cashed it, and will decide if and when he'll do anything further with it.

problem is with people like me PB can resolve, with the AG and/or FTC ther is no resolution, its either win or lose.

Asterios wrote:


its in a PDF file and trying to figure out how to add a PDF file here ?

When you post, you have two tabs under the text window when you type: Options Attachments. If you click attachments, you should be able to attach the pdf to the post as long as it is less than 10mb from what it says. If your pdf is too big, you're probably better off just doing a screen grab or two of the actual responses and posting them as pics the same way. If it's in a searchable text pdf, you could also just ctrl-c copy and paste it into a quote tag.

Thanks WarBoss didn't see that link before

and here we go in all its glory let me know what you think guys.

NOTE: Non-wargaming attachments are a no-no on Dakka Dakka too.

I think this one would be OK though...

 Alpharius wrote:
NOTE: Non-wargaming attachments are a no-no on Dakka Dakka too.

I think this one would be OK though...

well it is specific to this topic, and its like a post and contains no offensive material(depending on your point of view), albeit some of it is a bit repetitive.

From Rick's post/attachment:

There have been 14 Updates in the last seven months alone, one of them showing multiple pictures and breaking down exactly what the status of several game pieces was at the time.

Lol, he neglects to mention that the update with those pics was 6 months ago and that NOTHING new of note has been posted in the 13 updates since. The updates since February have contained only a single sentence of note that REPEATED the already published info about a possible (and increasingly unlikely) late 2015 delivery date mentioned at Adepticon. The rest were so vague as to be ridiculous to use as proof of actual progress (we talked on the phone! we looked at stuff! we're trying hard!) and the vast majority of the 13 updates since have been to sell us fuzzy dice and floor mats for the 2013 luxury car that they have yet to fully deliver. Sure, they delivered a technically working and street legal auto but it only has 3 of the four doors promised, 1 forward gear and no reverse, and they decided long after we paid not to do a convertible. But, hey, they've got shiny new floor mats to sell us for it!?! Buy now! Lol.

 warboss wrote:
From Rick's post/attachment:

There have been 14 Updates in the last seven months alone, one of them showing multiple pictures and breaking down exactly what the status of several game pieces was at the time.

Lol, he neglects to mention that the update with those pics was 6 months ago and that NOTHING new of note has been posted in the 13 updates since. The updates since February have contained only a single sentence of note that REPEATED the already published info about a possible (and increasingly unlikely) late 2015 delivery date mentioned at Adepticon. The rest were so vague as to be ridiculous to use as proof of actual progress (we talked on the phone! we looked at stuff! we're trying hard!) and the vast majority of the 13 updates since have been to sell us fuzzy dice and floor mats for the 2013 luxury car that they have yet to fully deliver. Sure, they delivered a technically working and street legal auto but it only has 3 of the four doors promised, 1 forward gear and no reverse, and they decided long after we paid not to do a convertible. But, hey, they've got shiny new floor mats to sell us for it!?! Buy now! Lol.

like I said, me thinks he didn't have a lawyer read that. also if this is any indication of his case, hes screwed.

We will probably each be in our own "special snowflake" condition of things.

The wave 2 would be interesting to figure out for the base package bought: refund 1/3rd the price of a base kit? It could be argued many ways.

I would just be happy to get a full refund of everything I ordered in the backer kit post funding which is 100% wave 2 stuff.

Sorry to re-appear as a non-injured party, but Talizvar made me wonder something that perhaps folks here might know.

With KickStarter you are equipped with the (largely untested) handwavium of the KickStarter Terms of Service that says you're not placing an order but backing an idea because KickStarter is not a store and other such attempts to alter reality. With BackerKit, does an entity have the same level of "protection" (again, setting aside how paper thin that may or may not be)? I believe that service looks very store-like and it's not "give me money to make my dream a reality and I'll send you X based on how much" that KickStarter can claim; there is a very specific dollar-to-object relationship with that interface. That then, to me, would cast doubt on the ability to deflect that the main campaign was in a similar scenario.

Stated another way, does the use of a service and/or document that 1) makes it clear that a concrete relationship of "X=Y" exists and 2) provides a clear "public" definition of that relationship pierce a hole through the veil PB is trying to hide behind in that BBB response?

I'm not a lawyer by any stretch, it was just idle curiosity while catching up during a lunch break.

 Talizvar wrote:

Many conflicting factors at work but they all seem to point to it being some measure of self interest to get Wave 2 done.
Hopefully they have deluded themselves into thinking they are "awesome" and we would not abandon them completely when we get all our stuff.

Sure, but whether it would be good for them to be able to fleece more people on another KS, or whether it would be good to complete Wave Two to avoid torches and pitchforks is completely irrelevant if they CAN'T do it.