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Ironic that the real "CRISIS OF TREACHERY" now appears to maybe allegedly be the one that Kevin and PB are perpetrating on on the backers?

I agree with the statement earlier though - PB will do WHATEVER it takes to deliver this KS because they think that KS will be a source of easy money to tap for years to come.

Of course IF this campaign does fulfill (and I hope it does!), well, anyone who backs the next one...

 Alpharius wrote:
Ironic that the real "CRISIS OF TREACHERY" now appears to maybe allegedly be the one that Kevin and PB are perpetrating on on the backers?

That's quite funny. We'll never know, unless a lawsuit brings any malfeasance to the light. Until then, KevCo will continue to either buck pass, or refuse to admit anything is wrong.

 Alpharius wrote:
I agree with the statement earlier though - PB will do WHATEVER it takes to deliver this KS because they think that KS will be a source of easy money to tap for years to come.

Agree they'll do whatever it takes. Disagree with the reasoning. I think it's more than likely that PB have seen the writing on the wall, that this game has no real future (the excess stocks, the lack of sales, the online reputation). The only reason I can see them doing what it takes to complete their obligations, is the potential cost of failure. Bankruptcy, and the destruction of, and selling off of Kevin's legacy. That's what he'd be fighting to prevent.

I think if PB were given a legal option of cancelling Wave 2, refunding what was left of the KS funds (if any), and being judgment proof against further charges (ie, everything else in the company remained intact), I don't doubt Kevin would take it in a second, public relations hit be damned.

 Alpharius wrote:
Of course IF this campaign does fulfill (and I hope it does!), well, anyone who backs the next one...

If Palladium ever did another Kickstarter, it'd definitely go a long way to cementing "incompetent" in the current incompetent/lazy/fraudulent dynamic that I still find too hard to judge. There's no way a future Kickstarter isn't going to make the Robotech Acadamy campaign look like a pleasant experience. That's not to say a privately run one (like Northern Gear) won't succeed, as they'll have a much stronger ability to control message and tone, but even then I think there'd be some that'd balk about putting money up in exchange for a promise.

Morgan Vening wrote:
I think if PB were given a legal option of cancelling Wave 2, refunding what was left of the KS funds (if any), and being judgment proof against further charges (ie, everything else in the company remained intact), I don't doubt Kevin would take it in a second, public relations hit be damned.

funny thing is there is a way out for PB and one that might if not help their public relations at least not make it much worse, the problem is PB has no common sense or PR rep who could point out their escape clause option, which would have a drastically reduced cost attached to it.

Asterios wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
I think if PB were given a legal option of cancelling Wave 2, refunding what was left of the KS funds (if any), and being judgment proof against further charges (ie, everything else in the company remained intact), I don't doubt Kevin would take it in a second, public relations hit be damned.

funny thing is there is a way out for PB and one that might if not help their public relations at least not make it much worse, the problem is PB has no common sense or PR rep who could point out their escape clause option, which would have a drastically reduced cost attached to it.

And what way out it that? Cause I don't think issuing refunds for those that want it*, would work. First, I don't think they have enough liquid assets to cover the immediate requests. But even if they did, that's money that's removed from making Wave 2, making the chances of that happening smaller. Meaning more people wanting refunds. Meaning less resources to complete Wave 2. Meaning more refunds. And it snowballing into bankruptcy.

* I don't think the number of people currently wanting refunds is a majority of backers. But I do think it's much more than the couple of dozen that PB and it's defenders claim it is. If it IS only a couple dozen, and PB have let this fester over a rounding error in their Kickstarter funding, then they're even bigger incompetents than I ever imagined.

If that's not what you're thinking, feel free to share.

Morgan Vening wrote:

Asterios wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
I think if PB were given a legal option of cancelling Wave 2, refunding what was left of the KS funds (if any), and being judgment proof against further charges (ie, everything else in the company remained intact), I don't doubt Kevin would take it in a second, public relations hit be damned.

funny thing is there is a way out for PB and one that might if not help their public relations at least not make it much worse, the problem is PB has no common sense or PR rep who could point out their escape clause option, which would have a drastically reduced cost attached to it.

And what way out it that? Cause I don't think issuing refunds for those that want it*, would work. First, I don't think they have enough liquid assets to cover the immediate requests. But even if they did, that's money that's removed from making Wave 2, making the chances of that happening smaller. Meaning more people wanting refunds. Meaning less resources to complete Wave 2. Meaning more refunds. And it snowballing into bankruptcy.

* I don't think the number of people currently wanting refunds is a majority of backers. But I do think it's much more than the couple of dozen that PB and it's defenders claim it is. If it IS only a couple dozen, and PB have let this fester over a rounding error in their Kickstarter funding, then they're even bigger incompetents than I ever imagined.

If that's not what you're thinking, feel free to share.

never said anything about PB giving backers their money back, as to what their low cost escape clause is, not revealing since that would not work in my favor.

Agreed just keep whatever info to yourself and see how this plays out. We already know there's at least one poster here who would go crying to Kevin on what they can do.

Well the easiest low cost option escape hatch would be for a regulatory body to investigate them and offer a consent decree.

Most likely such an agreement would include some restitution, whether to everyone or on request, fines, investigation cost, and maybe an agreement to never kickstart again or the like. Even that could potentially reach 10-20% of the backing amount.

 ThaneCawdor wrote:
Well the easiest low cost option escape hatch would be for a regulatory body to investigate them and offer a consent decree.

Most likely such an agreement would include some restitution, whether to everyone or on request, fines, investigation cost, and maybe an agreement to never kickstart again or the like. Even that could potentially reach 10-20% of the backing amount.

that would not be an option considering the last KS to get fined got fined twice what they brought in on the kickstarter, and that was from only one state.

That was a court (default) judgement, versus a consent decree.

And i was proposing that as a best case scenario that would leave PB somewhat solvent

 ThaneCawdor wrote:
That was a court (default) judgement, versus a consent decree.

And i was proposing that as a best case scenario that would leave PB somewhat solvent

I can see that if suits brought against them, but if a states AG gets involved, they will be out for blood, and sadly if PB had the money they would have brought out wave 2 then.

they are bleeding money scrabbling for some way to come up with funds and going broke doing it.

Asterios wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
I think if PB were given a legal option of cancelling Wave 2, refunding what was left of the KS funds (if any), and being judgment proof against further charges (ie, everything else in the company remained intact), I don't doubt Kevin would take it in a second, public relations hit be damned.

funny thing is there is a way out for PB and one that might if not help their public relations at least not make it much worse, the problem is PB has no common sense or PR rep who could point out their escape clause option, which would have a drastically reduced cost attached to it.

If Kevin and PB attempt to defraud the KS backers, at that point, people will get out the pitchforks and likely start pushing for CRIMINAL prosecution that "pierces the corporate veil" and holds Kevin, his officers and his directors personally and severally liable.

He really doesn't want that.

That is the sort of "lose-lose" legal quagmire that will unquestionably bankrupt him, in addition to PB.

Not really, when dealing with reputable company's (for some definition of reputable) most regulatory bodies prefer to craft & gain a consent decree over litigation.

Quicker, cheaper, still fills their coffers and lets them claim they "did something"

Yes, really. Citizens can file criminal charges, too.

And their home state would have jurisdiction, because that's where Palladium took their money, and unlike a traditional business contract, venue is not specified. Kevin could be seeing separate lawsuits filed in all 50 states plus the District of Columbia.

And that's not to mention a battery of Small Claims. Literally a death of a thousand cuts.


Of course, if PB would just deliver Wave 2, rather than blowing smoke, all of this unpleasantness could be avoided.

Funny thing is if say the state of Hawaii, decided to file CPA violation charges against PB, PB would have to go to the state of Hawaii to fight them or get a lawyer there to fight the charges, or do a no show and get judgement against them, so any state's AG files charges PB has to go to those states, so if anything this could rack up PB's airline miles.

Exactly so. Even if it's 2 or 3 AGs outside of Michigan, it's bad news.

And Small Claims are the same issue. Actually, it's worse, because it's every county.

Also, Cali has some fantastically good law which favors the locals over out-of-state Internet sellers who don't pay CA taxes.

The easiest answer, by the way I see it, for PB to walk away without much recourse would be to fess up "omg we're out of funding to produce wave two" and then ship backers another core box for each battle cry.

We're owed 27 figures per, that's 37 figures per, plus dice, and tokens, and a rule book!

They'd still need to attend to add ons, but this would be a way to turn piles of core boxes sitting around the office into a solution for their obligations.

I imagine it'd probably require some cores to be made (they'd need like 7 or 8 thousand, I doubt they have near that much on hand), but they wouldn't need to pay for new molds, just "hey, those things we ordered? Fire up another print run!"

Yes, obviously if they are literally flat broke, this is no more realistic a solution than completing wave two. But if they're not, if they're short on cash but not running on empty, this would be a way to meet their obligations to backers ("See! They were owed 97 figures and they got 107! BAM!"), PLUS needing to address add ons (which wouldn't be cheap).

It's not perfect, it's not ideal, it may not be realistic (No Rick, don't bother correcting me at length, I don't care, I'm merely presenting opinion from what I've read, not a dissertation that requires notes about needing to see you after class), but it COULD be PART of a POTENTIAL solution, ASSUMING they're NOT flat broke.

If they're broke nobody is getting anything other than perhaps some sense of justice/revenge if their doors actually do have to close sometime in the coming months (though we all know that they'll limp along for years on meager book sales and Fan Friends buying grab bags for years).

That aside, here's a fun fact; as of the time I pulled the information, there were 108 backers located in Michigan. Yes, out of state stuff is awful, but having people in your backyard, that's a whole other issue in removing a potential barrier to those people going through the appropriate channels.

Of course, everything you've listed there requires at least some sort of basic self-awareness. We have yet to see any evidence of that in PB or KS, whatsoever.

Mike, are you being disheartened from lack of information or do you have some inside perspective on things that have made you feel less confident?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Exactly so. Even if it's 2 or 3 AGs outside of Michigan, it's bad news.

And Small Claims are the same issue. Actually, it's worse, because it's every county.

Also, Cali has some fantastically good law which favors the locals over out-of-state Internet sellers who don't pay CA taxes.

Yeah, and there is enough water in Lake Michigan to drown every single person in the country... but that doesn't mean we're at risk. IIRC you have to serve the defendant for small claims in your own state (which means palladium first has to come to YOU) and that assumes that you have folks in every state willing to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:
The easiest answer, by the way I see it, for PB to walk away without much recourse would be to fess up "omg we're out of funding to produce wave two" and then ship backers another core box for each battle cry.

We're owed 27 figures per, that's 37 figures per, plus dice, and tokens, and a rule book!

They'd still need to attend to add ons, but this would be a way to turn piles of core boxes sitting around the office into a solution for their obligations.

They could also as an alternative offer folks who just want to settle up right now instead of waiting that option. I probably wouldn't take it (I'm having enough trouble selling my existing NOS stuff right now locally) and I definitely don't need more of the same but it might be a preferable option for some and at least show some willingness on the part of palladium to work with the backers they've ignored and broken so many promises to.

 Forar wrote:

That aside, here's a fun fact; as of the time I pulled the information, there were 108 backers located in Michigan. Yes, out of state stuff is awful, but having people in your backyard, that's a whole other issue in removing a potential barrier to those people going through the appropriate channels.

From what I saw in the comments when I used to follow them (admittedly a while ago), the Michigan backers are some of the most supportive. Most of the fanfriends who help with shipping and packing were likely from Michigan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Merijeek wrote:
Of course, everything you've listed there requires at least some sort of basic self-awareness. We have yet to see any evidence of that in PB or KS, whatsoever.

They'll eventually use it as an excuse to not further communicate on the advice of their lawyers... that's my guess. It's just following the form of Palladium having enough time to respond to Rick's BBB complaint but not to bother updating 5,000+ backers for almost a month even with one of their content-freeTM updates.

 n815e wrote:
Mike, are you being disheartened from lack of information or do you have some inside perspective on things that have made you feel less confident?

A bit of both. I have not heard a word of wave 2. I also do have some inside information but nothing Earth Shattering. Things are moving forward just I'm just not in on the pace. I've also given PB other materials that they have been looking at using for the conventional stuff and it is frustrating to have to hear answers back months later and not directly from PB. So I'm a bit frustrated and I also just want to play. So I'm focusing on my last semester of school and then seeing how the chips continue falling before making more drastic decisions.

Also, and this is my opinion, some just want to see PB burn to satisfy their need to "Justice" or "Revenge". I see that as honestly stupid and that lawsuits are likely to kill any chance at wave 2, however small others seem to believe. With the movie there are some that think that someone else will pick this up and drive it forward. They could be right. But once Hollywood has their claws on Robotech do you think anything will be the same? We will have something different for every mecha from Veritechs to Battlepods and we all know what the Transformers movies did for that franchise.

1. Hope PB can pull things off, maybe even help a bit and cross my fingers.
2. Sue and get nothing and be pissed off all the time
3. Sue and hope someone else picks up RRT and see it turned into something totally different. If this happens also note all the money you put into the KS will have gone for nothing and you will have to start over, likely at square one and probably pay retail or retail sales prices for it all. If RRT is revamped there is no way we are getting anything in any way or shape for even close to what we are getting now.

Am I missing any options here?

Some see option 1 as dumb. Others see option 2 as the best. Others see option 3 as great too.

 Forar wrote:
The easiest answer, by the way I see it, for PB to walk away without much recourse would be to fess up "omg we're out of funding to produce wave two" and then ship backers another core box for each battle cry.

We're owed 27 figures per, that's 37 figures per, plus dice, and tokens, and a rule book!

They'd still need to attend to add ons, but this would be a way to turn piles of core boxes sitting around the office into a solution for their obligations.

I imagine it'd probably require some cores to be made (they'd need like 7 or 8 thousand, I doubt they have near that much on hand), but they wouldn't need to pay for new molds, just "hey, those things we ordered? Fire up another print run!"

Yes, obviously if they are literally flat broke, this is no more realistic a solution than completing wave two. But if they're not, if they're short on cash but not running on empty, this would be a way to meet their obligations to backers ("See! They were owed 97 figures and they got 107! BAM!"), PLUS needing to address add ons (which wouldn't be cheap).

It's not perfect, it's not ideal, it may not be realistic (No Rick, don't bother correcting me at length, I don't care, I'm merely presenting opinion from what I've read, not a dissertation that requires notes about needing to see you after class), but it COULD be PART of a POTENTIAL solution, ASSUMING they're NOT flat broke.

If they're broke nobody is getting anything other than perhaps some sense of justice/revenge if their doors actually do have to close sometime in the coming months (though we all know that they'll limp along for years on meager book sales and Fan Friends buying grab bags for years).

That aside, here's a fun fact; as of the time I pulled the information, there were 108 backers located in Michigan. Yes, out of state stuff is awful, but having people in your backyard, that's a whole other issue in removing a potential barrier to those people going through the appropriate channels.

all in all it does sound good Forar, one problem PB will never fess up to anything. also your thinking small on your solution, your close to the right track, but your adding in extra uneeded costs and forgetting a bigger aspect available.

 Mike1975 wrote:

 n815e wrote:
Mike, are you being disheartened from lack of information or do you have some inside perspective on things that have made you feel less confident?

A bit of both. I have not heard a word of wave 2. I also do have some inside information but nothing Earth Shattering. Things are moving forward just I'm just not in on the pace. I've also given PB other materials that they have been looking at using for the conventional stuff and it is frustrating to have to hear answers back months later and not directly from PB. So I'm a bit frustrated and I also just want to play. So I'm focusing on my last semester of school and then seeing how the chips continue falling before making more drastic decisions.

Also, and this is my opinion, some just want to see PB burn to satisfy their need to "Justice" or "Revenge". I see that as honestly stupid and that lawsuits are likely to kill any chance at wave 2, however small others seem to believe. With the movie there are some that think that someone else will pick this up and drive it forward. They could be right. But once Hollywood has their claws on Robotech do you think anything will be the same? We will have something different for every mecha from Veritechs to Battlepods and we all know what the Transformers movies did for that franchise.

1. Hope PB can pull things off, maybe even help a bit and cross my fingers.
2. Sue and get nothing and be pissed off all the time
3. Sue and hope someone else picks up RRT and see it turned into something totally different. If this happens also note all the money you put into the KS will have gone for nothing and you will have to start over, likely at square one and probably pay retail or retail sales prices for it all. If RRT is revamped there is no way we are getting anything in any way or shape for even close to what we are getting now.

Am I missing any options here?

Some see option 1 as dumb. Others see option 2 as the best. Others see option 3 as great too.

1: I don't work for PB I am a customer, last time I checked a customer does not have to create his product in order to get it.
2: a lawsuit will get me my money back
3: actually wouldn't be surprised if we get pretty much the same stuff, remember they are going off of the HG brand and how they stick to details.
or option 4 anything is better then having Palladium around, furthermore it will be a lesson to the kickstarter community that businesses can't get away with our money for over 2 years with very little information.

Mike you keep doing things in black and white and forget there are all kinds of shades of grey in between, while a lawsuit is fine and dany it will not have the effect you think it does, it will be a minor blip, the parts that will hurt PB is things like AG interaction and or the FTC too and such, that is what will destroy PB, and that can only happen if PB broke the law, so all I hear from you is you advocate PB breaking the law in hopes you get something.

 warboss wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Exactly so. Even if it's 2 or 3 AGs outside of Michigan, it's bad news.

And Small Claims are the same issue. Actually, it's worse, because it's every county.

Also, Cali has some fantastically good law which favors the locals over out-of-state Internet sellers who don't pay CA taxes.

Yeah, and there is enough water in Lake Michigan to drown every single person in the country... but that doesn't mean we're at risk. IIRC you have to serve the defendant for small claims in your own state (which means palladium first has to come to YOU) and that assumes that you have folks in every state willing to do so.

Nope. You can send the letter Registered Mail to their official business address in the state in which they are incorporated. If Palladium is a real company, that is sufficient. They don't have to respond, and as a backer trying to get my money back, I don't care if they do. Actually, I prefer that they don't. I can walk up to the Judge with paperwork in hand showing that I sent Registered Mail to their official business address of incorporation, and that they failed to respond within the given timeframe. Default Judgement in 5 minutes.

Then, I can start to collect, and that's where it gets interesting. They can pay me, or they can spend more to appeal. If they choose not to respond, I can always send a Collections Agency after them - that Default Judgement is absolute proof of an actual debt owed. Can you imagine the fun of a hundred debt collectors calling Palladium and hounding Kevin?

3: actually wouldn't be surprised if we get pretty much the same stuff, remember they are going off of the HG brand and how they stick to details.
or option 4 anything is better then having Palladium around, furthermore it will be a lesson to the kickstarter community that businesses can't get away with our money for over 2 years with very little information.

Once again, your predictions are wonderfully off.
HG has already confirmed that the mecha designs are going to change.
HG has already made it clear that they are happy with their relationship with PB.
HG cares about us as much as PB does.

Oh wow, that response to Rick is a hot mess.

We have kept all of our Kickstarter Backers informed as to the progress of this project

Not lately you haven't. More on that in a bit.

There was never an exact release date

There has always been a target. Missing a 7 month window by a few months is one thing. Being at 27 months without an end in sight is a wee bit more than a mere 'oops'. When one is at 400% of the estimate and climbing, they done fethed up. They can call it 'just an estimate' all they like, at this point we can safely say that nobody had any idea what was involved here when they made it. It was clearly chosen as an overly optimistic "perfect case scenario" (not just best case) with zero room for contingencies.

And then Kevin himself doubled down on an early delivery the day after it funded. Good job!

Money was taken on that premise, with reassurances that production would begin soon (the infamous "within 45 days of the campaign ending" quote). If they'd said "this might take an extra year or two", I definitely wouldn't have contributed as heavily, nor kicked them further money during the pledge manager period.

Awfully convenient that the confidence they felt regarding the delivery window only shifted after they stopped getting money from us...

We have posted 14 updates in the last six months

Yeah, most of them about a scale discussion/misdirection, and 'please buy more of our stuff!!! Please!?!'

Kickstarter is not a store, and their fund-raising campaigns are not sales nor mechanisms for taking pre-orders.

Uh huh. What about Backerkit? Because that was awfully clear on the "give me $40 and I'll send you this fancy MAC-II". (shout out to my man JHDD)

*MSRP stuff*

This seems like dangerous ground to be upon. If it works, great. If it doesn't, they've just admitted to owing people a LOT of money/product. Plays well with the 'we totes shipped him his moneys worth!', does not play well with 'okay and we kind of owe him like $300 more worth of stuff.. which doesn't exist...'

87 updates in 27 months

Uh huh, and how many of them contained substantial information about production? Since Wave 1 delivered, that answer is "One", at least off the top of my head.

There have been 14 updates in the last seven months alone, one of them showing multiple pictures

This, ladies and gentlemen, is flagrant 'lying with statistics'. Yes, in the most literal sense, it is technically correct without accurately conveying context that of those 14 updates, the FIRST one had the detailed info, and the following 13 were a clusterfeth of rambling history lessons, vague promises, and begging for money. Not to mention that the 'weekly PB updates' they mention are generally just a copy/paste of info from the update. Posting the same thing twice does not equal posting twice as much about it. They themselves stated during the Open House time about how much they wanted to make sure the Backers heard info first in an Update.

Mr. Steinberg's claim that we have "... remained silent on when other product will be delivered or even where they are at in production of other product other than to say 'soon'" is absolutely untrue.

Okay here's where Forar's patience wears thin. Go feth yourselves. It is absolutely true. Show ONE update in those 14 other than the Feb 28th one that has detailed information about wave two. Not "it's coming", not "it's being worked on", actual info. "We're totally going to have a conference call you gusy!!" is not an update. How much tangible info can they show regarding wave two development in those last 14 months? Spoiler alert; not fething much.

Oh, and then we establish that Rick is a mastermind ringleader. Good for him!

Here's another point where they aren't helping their own case;

Then on June 9th, we posted "As for Wave 2, I'm working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is at in its development, but that's going to take some time."

That was ten fething weeks ago.

They also neglect to mention that despite the last 14 months between Wave 1 going to production and now, they have... 5 sprue breakdowns to show off, and nothing new in the last half year.

Wow. If this is the level of discourse they're raising in their defense... wow. This is going to get really interesting.

Attaching the response to a BBB case opened against PB, as requested.

thats my case DarkMinstral

Okay, now that's funny.

Mr. Steinberg's claim that we have "... remained silent on when other product will be delivered or even where they are at in production of other product other than to say 'soon'" is absolutely untrue.

Kevin is not actually lying when he disputes Steinberg's claim, but that's only because PB has stopped saying "soon". They've stopped saying anything of substance at all.


The correct follow-up response to Kevin here is to ask:

- If not the indefinite "soon", then definitely when the feth will the product be delivered?

We don't want bullgak about how you claim to be working on Wave 2. We want to see photographs of actual product, and we want actual ship dates. Names of ships that we can track to port.

Asterios wrote:
thats my case DarkMinstral

*ahem*

No it isn't!

ahhh you changed it

ooh Kevin better be careful since he is skating the dge of breaking certain Michigan state laws.

in fact hope he gives that excuse to the Michigan States AG or my AG even.