Robotech® RPG Tactics™-License lost, the end is near!

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**Asterios**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
@stan - in that thrillingly informative sentence, there is a TM and 2 (R)s. It's Kevin!

Think he means the BBB replies?

**warboss**

Simply adding a TM to Mike's convention unit rules or putting RRPGT on a pencil for sale would satisfy a boast of "working" on Robotech RPG Tactics judging from the BBB complaint responses. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what most of us want which is wave 2. The standard is very low with regards to palladium and somehow they convince themselves it needs to be lower as each month passes.

**ced1106**

fyi, CoolStuffInc has two Robotech packs on sale:
http://www.coolstuffinc.com/page/1175

**MangoMadness**

Thats a significant discount

**Albertorius**

MangoMadness wrote:
Thats a significant discount

You could call it fire sale, yeah.

**Forar**

Miniature Market has the same packs at the same discount.

Perhaps those are low sellers or in overstock, or maybe they're just discounted to try to take advantage of the RDF sale that happened last weekend. Yes, I'm aware that there was a Zentraedi sale before it.

When they knock the entire line down to 50% again and it isn't some Black Friday thing, I'd be more inclined to call it a fire sale.

**Talizvar**

@ced1106: good spot, that is worth picking up!

So, confirmed complaint sent to Palladium Books from the BBB.
It is like borders do not exist!
I cannot wait to see how the great spin-doctor replies to this one.
My request is sufficiently different I think the good-old copy-paste will not suffice.
I wonder if they will resort to personal attacks or hold postings on the kickstarter against me?
My new "hobby" of playing "get my money back" from PB is underway.

Hey! Any of you out there that got your letter back from PB have not got back to the BBB of your "satisfaction" with the response.
The details of the complaint cannot be displayed until some feedback is given so it makes the exercise rather fruitless.
http://www.bbb.org/detroit/business-reviews/books-new/palladium-books-inc-in-westland-mi-13022151/complaints
3 complaints only? Really? Took 5 minutes tops to lodge the complaint, this is a nice way to publically shame these guys.
I guess there is not much to get angry over but they are not entitled to my money so this is a good start.

In regards to Mike's concern of litigation and possibly killing any further RRT development, I think this is the more "humane" way to start out and if they want to be turkeys about it, then escalation is the only logical response.

I will be interested to see after my request for refund is denied (place your bets?!) if Visa will be agreeable.
The only difficulty is "I think" PB did not charge directly, I have to review the charge on my bill and see who it was from (backer kit showed day and amount charged).

**Morgan Vening**

Talizvar wrote:
I will be interested to see after my request for refund is denied (place your bets?!) if Visa will be agreeable.
The only difficulty is "I think" PB did not charge directly, I have to review the charge on my bill and see who it was from (backer kit showed day and amount charged).

Chance of getting a refund from PB < chance of winning lottery. Without buying a ticket.
Chance of getting a refund through CC < Not much better.

Even if the CC did charge PB directly, it's been two years. I doubt most credit cards have a latency period that long. I believe last time people started doing it in significant numbers, 180 days was the typical limit. I believe one backer said he got his past that, but it wasn't a common occurrence by any means. The two big factors are gonna be how much you're owed, and how much the issuing bank are willing to eat to keep you happy as a customer (as they'll probably just write it off as a loss rather than attempt to recoup it). If the latter exceeds the former, you MIGHT get a chargeback.

**warboss**

Something that caught my eye from the update is that the battlefoam bags are still available. I know during the KS they said they'd make extra beyond what backers had bought but I'm not sure just how many. A few dozen comes to mind but I couldn't find the actual reference to the amount Palladium mentioned. I am pretty sure that it was less than a hundred though... and a year later they're still in stock and available. Unless I'm totally off on the numbers, that likely isn't a good sign.

**Forar**

Yeah, when the matter came up (and a chargeback has come up a few times these past years) I did some research. Many cards have a 3-6 month limit on chargebacks. Some people went well beyond that and after having a conversation with their CC company on the phone, still managed to get their money back, but it's not a universal. Probably boils down to how convincing you can be, the company's non-public policies, history with the card, who you speak to, how good a day they're having, etc.

Totally worth investigating for those who are seeking out all possible methods of recourse, but I wouldn't hold my breath after this long.

Mike1975 wrote:
1. Hope PB can pull things off, maybe even help a bit and cross my fingers.
2. Sue and get nothing and be pissed off all the time
3. Sue and hope someone else picks up RRT and see it turned into something totally different. If this happens also note all the money you put into the KS will have gone for nothing and you will have to start over, likely at square one and probably pay retail or retail sales prices for it all. If RRT is revamped there is no way we are getting anything in any way or shape for even close to what we are getting now.

Am I missing any options here?

4. Pursue methods of recourse up to and including credible risk of litigation and PB does the smart thing and just hands over a reasonable sum (Add Ons + $ per battle cry).

There's no reason this has to end up like some bad Hollywood legal drama. The cost in time, manpower, and other resources dealing with these challenges simply has to be worth more than simply kicking people $100 to feth off (or whatever amount it might be).

Not to mention the manner in which these frustrated people can compound upon themselves. A handful of refunds could have a disproportionate effect (as in, more valuable than the value of the funds) in nipping some of the agitators in the bud.

Sure, I can see the counter argument of "oh noes, but what if people see refunds and make a 'bank run' on the offer! Hundreds of backers? Thousands!?" I guess that'd be pretty bad, and also funny as it'd fly right in the face of "oh it's just a few vocal haters, everyone loves this game!" that has been offered so very often.

I do find it incredible that rather than just update the backers, they've doubled down yet again and stopped saying anything at all about wave two. Not that I actually miss their weekly "Soon(tm)", but it's actively counter productive to their claims of ongoing work.

Ongoing work should bear *some* kind of fruit, especially on the scale of weeks, let alone months, let alone half a year.

**winterdyne**

The longer this goes on, the more plausible the 'they spent it all on wave 1 and now have no working capital' argument becomes.

Which isn't just poor management, it's an effective breach of contract- stretch goals and add-ons are rewards for the kickstarter that have to be fulfilled responsibly according to the terms set out.

**warboss**

According to palladium, as long as they devote 1 minute of every month to it then it is an ongoing project that they don't have to deliver until it's ready. They can take 1 year extra (ding! done), 2 years (ding! done), 5 years (on the way!), or even 10 years and that is what you agreed to because of the word "estimate". Given Palladium's history of rpg rules, it shouldn't be a surprise that they don't apply any common sense or reasonableness to their stance but instead take it to the absurd extreme. A normal person would consider that if you take 400% longer than your "estimate" then you have effectively not delivered and breached the contract but not Palladium!

**Merijeek**

winterdyne wrote:
The longer this goes on, the more plausible the 'they spent it all on wave 1 and now have no working capital' argument becomes.

You kidding? Show me one piece of evidence from after Wave One shipped that indicates even the tiniest bit that it ISN'T true.

Note: Simbieda and fan-friends assuring us that PB's finances are fine do not, in fact, count as evidence.

**Forar**

Yeah, this has been a point of contention for me for some time.

If I tell my boss that I'll deliver a report in a week, and it takes a week and a half, I might get an eye roll out of it.

If I tell my boss that I'll deliver a report in a week, and it looks like it won't even be done after 4 weeks, that's a problem.

If that report was tied to a 1.4 million dollar product line, I'd probably be having a rather large problem followed by an exit interview with HR.

But no worries, I look forward to the same voices telling me in a year "it's only coming on 3 years late, be patient!" Because there is no end date, merely unflinching acceptance of when it's done, it's done. :-D

Sorry, Valve and Blizzard are the only companies that get that kind of carte blanche from me, and even then, the former could do to actually complete Episode 3 or Half Life 3 or whatever it is they are working on. >.<

**warboss**

Forar wrote:

Sorry, Valve and Blizzard are the only companies that get that kind of carte blanche from me, and even then, the former could do to actually complete Episode 3 or Half Life 3 or whatever it is they are working on. >.<

Valve and Blizzard didn't take your money for Half Life 3 and Warcraft 4 game and several dlc packs bundles several years ago and promise that they would be ready soon after. Once you take that nonrefundable money upfront and make promises, you don't get to play the "it's ready when it's ready" game without suffering the (largely impotent) consequences. Palladium is not applying any standard of reasonableness to their position.

**Asterios**

Talizvar wrote:
@ced1106: good spot, that is worth picking up!

So, confirmed complaint sent to Palladium Books from the BBB.
It is like borders do not exist!
I cannot wait to see how the great spin-doctor replies to this one.
My request is sufficiently different I think the good-old copy-paste will not suffice.
I wonder if they will resort to personal attacks or hold postings on the kickstarter against me?
My new "hobby" of playing "get my money back" from PB is underway.

Hey! Any of you out there that got your letter back from PB have not got back to the BBB of your "satisfaction" with the response.
The details of the complaint cannot be displayed until some feedback is given so it makes the exercise rather fruitless.
http://www.bbb.org/detroit/business-reviews/books-new/palladium-books-inc-in-westland-mi-13022151/complaints
3 complaints only? Really? Took 5 minutes tops to lodge the complaint, this is a nice way to publically shame these guys.
I guess there is not much to get angry over but they are not entitled to my money so this is a good start.

In regards to Mike's concern of litigation and possibly killing any further RRT development, I think this is the more "humane" way to start out and if they want to be turkeys about it, then escalation is the only logical response.

I will be interested to see after my request for refund is denied (place your bets?!) if Visa will be agreeable.
The only difficulty is "I think" PB did not charge directly, I have to review the charge on my bill and see who it was from (backer kit showed day and amount charged).

Actually I did respond and responded in an eloquent way here is my response:

Better Business Bureau:

I have reviewed the offer made by the business in reference to complaint ID 10752193, and have determined that this proposed action would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of why I am rejecting this offer appear below:

I Strongly Disagree with Mr. Siembieda's response to my assertations in Case # 10752193

Mr. Siembieda claims that he has kept the KickStarter backers informed as to the progress of the project and that he has posted 14 updates in the last 6 months, let us break down these updates shall we starting with update dated Feb. 10th of this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1132114

Mr. Siembieda speaks of 2 ships passing in the night in reference to international shipping of overseas orders of wave 1 items, no mention of wave 2 items.

Dated Feb. 21st. of this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1143175

once again Mr. Siembieda discusses wave 1 shipping over seas and a last call for address changes, nothing about wave 2 product

Dated Feb. 28th. of this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1150566

finally a wave 2 update where Mr. Siembieda shows us 3D renderings of 5 models with promise of more to come in a few days. (remember this phrase)

Dated Mar. 17th of this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1169100

Mr. Siembieda expounds on delivery to Europe and Australia and their plans to be at Adepticon, nothing about wave 2.

Dated May 13th of this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1230809

Mr. Siembieda states rest of world has shipped and he gives us a rundown of what is in wave 1 and wave 2, nothing about the progress of wave 2

Dated May 22nd of this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1240492

Mr. Siembieda states they are working on wave 2, and yet nothing to show us for it other then their word that they are working on it, furthermore he goes on to tell us he will be working on some new models called convention exclusives and make them available to the backers to buy, in other words he is splitting time that should be spent on a project that his company was already paid for, for product so they can make more money on.

Dated June 4th of this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1254051

we are promised a big update and look forward with expectation

Dated June 6th of this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1255963

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1256008

it was a big update that took up 2 updates to get it out, unfortunately, it told us nothing about wave 2 except for soon and how they expected and hope for it this year. this update gave us all kinds of background material for Palladium Books and such , and furthermore he goes on about not wanting to give a set date of delivery, the issue is not when the product will deliver, but what is being done on the product, other then being shown 5 renders this year on some of the missing models we have been shown nothing.

Dated June 8th of this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1257281

this update was about future generations and their size and had nothing to do with wave 2, other then this brief item "I’ll be posting more about this and other things (most important being Wave 2 of course) soon." at the end of the update.

Dated Jun 11th of this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1261276

more update about the size of future generations and nothing to do with wave 2.

Dated June 13th of this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1263476

more talks of Convention exclusive items which has nothing to do with Wave 2 items.

Dated June 19th if this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1267112

A vote regarding the scale of future generations not having anything to do with wave 2 product in fact the poll heavily favored 6mm with information on wave 2 shortly behind.

Dated July 9th of this year:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1289210

pictures were shown of some Convention exclusive items which were done instead of wave 2 product by the lack of information of wave 2 and proof of the convention items, all that was mentioned of wave 2 was "As for Wave 2, I’m working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is in its development, but that’s going to take some time. The short version is that some have been approved for tooling, some are still pending minor changes, and a couple are being reworked to reduce part counts while preserving detail. It’s going painfully slowly."

and yet nothing to show us, only what he says is being done.

Dated July 15th and the last update currently

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1295410

he makes mention the chance of being able to order the convention exclusives have been extended.

no info on wave 2

Mr. Siembieda claims that we are not customers or pre-orders by dictation of KickStarter, but on the same coin KickStarter also tells Kickstarter pledge creators to obey current and local laws, and by current law we kickstarter backers are considered Consumers first and foremost and should be treated as consumers. because we gave money in good faith on the promise of receiving product back for said money.

the claim is not about when product will be delivered but if it will be delivered, we only have Mr. Siembieda's word for that with no evidence and/or proof to back up his claims, he "says" they are doing this and that, he "claims" this and that are done, and yet he has failed time and time again to produce any evidence of his claims.

My biggest worry is that Palladium Books and Mr. Siembieda are without the funds to complete said project and if that is the case there will be no complete wave 2 forth coming.

furthermore before this project happened I did not even know Palladium Books was still in business I remember when they did Robotech and TMNT and I always loved Robotech so when some friends told me of this project I jumped on.

It has been because of this project that I have considered Palladium Books and Kevin Siembieda loathsome to say the least, but that is my opinion and has been made such by the actions done in this project.

I stand by my original request

Regards,

Richard Steinberg

**Talizvar**

Well I have consistently been surprised in my life that as long as you are persistent and maintain the persona of being a reasonable person, there are few things barred to you.

I want the BBB thing to work it's process through and then the CC route I think would be fine.
They like us, they got a little money out of us from time to time but we always keep it paid-off and we had a couple "double-payment" issues we ironed out ok so I could see this going somewhere. Any thoughts on what PB's credit history looks like? I bet mine is better.

It is rather small for a collection's agency route but could be worth looking at for giggles: I have worked with our collections department at work a fair bit and it is silly-easy to arrange and some loss of money on my end but worth it for closure.

See, if you have been wronged and made someone or a business your "hobby" you can do a public service by demonstrating to others the ease which you can make their lives uncomfortable legally. It is just a matter of time, research and the perceived "payback" you are willing to accept.

I typically see civil law legal matters as a weapon of mutual destruction: only the lawyers win.

Anyway, not as riveting as an "army painting blog" but an interesting process all the same I never really expected to be doing.

**warboss**

For those folks who file complaints with BBB, it's probably better if you file the initial complaint as well as the responses with a non-gamer in mind since that is likely who will be reading it. Rick, you mention things like "generations" and "TMNT" in your response that is likely geekgobbledygook to most folks reading it outside of dakkadakka or the KS comments. It's probably better to refer to the updates about scale change as "the next project in the product line". I realize that the BBB bureau has no teeth but if you do get the attention of the AG then it is better if you word everything in terms that a layman in the jury pool can understand.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, from the link Forar provided, I'm not sure why you guys aren't filing it under "delivery issues"; isn't that the most appropriate since they're not delivering? Or are you guys considering the nondelivery trivial after two years delay but the 6 months of worthless "communication" the bigger issue?

**Asterios**

warboss wrote:
For those folks who file complaints with BBB, it's probably better if you file the initial complaint as well as the responses with a non-gamer in mind since that is likely who will be reading it. Rick, you mention things like "generations" and "TMNT" in your response that is likely geekgobbledygook to most folks reading it outside of dakkadakka or the KS comments. It's probably better to refer to the updates about scale change as "the next project in the product line". I realize that the BBB bureau has no teeth but if you do get the attention of the AG then it is better if you word everything in terms that a layman in the jury pool can understand.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, from the link Forar provided, I'm not sure why you guys aren't filing it under "delivery issues"; isn't that the most appropriate since they're not delivering? Or are you guys considering the nondelivery trivial after two years delay but the 6 months of worthless "communication" the bigger issue?

well that was to get them to read the links in the generations 8^P as to TMNT not many people out there who don't know who that is.

as to non delivery that is subjective, even though Kevin's response was all in that direction.

now the real question is, who is Palladiums behind the scenes benefactor?

**CaulynDarr**

Every time I read something from Kevin, I get the impression of someone who thinks they're a lot smarter than they actually are. It's so easy to see the attempts at obfuscation and weasel words.

It's a lot like watching a bad murder mystery where you spot the killer out 60 seconds in. At least make it hard to detect the BS.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
That, or he just doesn't care.

**Duskland**

Kevin's too obvious as the supervillian. He's more the bumbling villain type (like most Scooby Doo villains, damn meddlesome kids). If this were a major TV plot there'd be a twist (like Palladium actually being backed by crab people).

I personally don't expect to ever see wave 2. I think it's self evident at this point that Palladium Books is the keystone cops of game publishers and I should have known better than to back any project they were connected with. It's too bad because some of my favorite mecha designs are in wave 2, but at this point it's pretty obvious that this game is dead.

**Talizvar**

warboss wrote:
Also, from the link Forar provided, I'm not sure why you guys aren't filing it under "delivery issues"; isn't that the most appropriate since they're not delivering? Or are you guys considering the nondelivery trivial after two years delay but the 6 months of worthless "communication" the bigger issue?

I had listed it as "delivery issues" the BBB changed it.
I suspect they look at it as a problem with the product by not receiving it, not being made / available not a specific problem with the process of shipping it to us.
My claim is more on the grounds that specific product was ordered some-what outside the backing/rewards element and it looks like that product is not forthcoming.

It would be interesting and relevant to PB if I placed a pre-order, what would be a reasonable interval until I decide the product is not coming and seek refund?
I NEVER pre-order anything now because I have seen zero benefit from that and all the risk.

Hence the kickstarter fallacy of many people say you are not "owed" anything.
So if it is within a creator's ability to produce the product agreed and they do not feel like it or find it inconvenient, I am expected to suck it up?
This means of free money as demonstrated has ensured that not a single kickstarter would see my money because KS are taking zero ownership of a flawed product.
They can respectfully get lost in that regard.

I design process systems, they take work, thought, consideration of feedback, PB and KS have one behavior in common: they do what they want despite the call for change.

**Merijeek**

CaulynDarr wrote:
Every time I read something from Kevin, I get the impression of someone who thinks they're a lot smarter than they actually are. It's so easy to see the attempts at obfuscation and weasel words.

It's a lot like watching a bad murder mystery where you spot the killer out 60 seconds in. At least make it hard to detect the BS.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
That, or he just doesn't care.

Or he's used to surrounding himself with even dumber people. So he's used to being the smartest mongoloid in the room.

**Talizvar**

Merijeek wrote:
CaulynDarr wrote:
Every time I read something from Kevin, I get the impression of someone who thinks they're a lot smarter than they actually are. It's so easy to see the attempts at obfuscation and weasel words.
It's a lot like watching a bad murder mystery where you spot the killer out 60 seconds in. At least make it hard to detect the BS.
That, or he just doesn't care.
Or he's used to surrounding himself with even dumber people. So he's used to being the smartest mongoloid in the room.

Typically it is the "Emperor has no clothes" condition.
Yeah, the boss is wrong, but are you going to tell him? Good luck! Can I have your desk when you are gone?

**Forar**

warboss wrote:
Forar wrote:

Sorry, Valve and Blizzard are the only companies that get that kind of carte blanche from me, and even then, the former could do to actually complete Episode 3 or Half Life 3 or whatever it is they are working on. >.<

Valve and Blizzard didn't take your money for Half Life 3 and Warcraft 4 game and several dlc packs bundles several years ago and promise that they would be ready soon after. Once you take that nonrefundable money upfront and make promises, you don't get to play the "it's ready when it's ready" game without suffering the (largely impotent) consequences. Palladium is not applying any standard of reasonableness to their position.

A fair point I hadn't overlooked. Merely commenting on their approach to delivering in general.

To make a more direct comparison, if Valve announced that Episode 3 would be available in 2 months, and due to massive issues they had to delay it a month, I'd be annoyed but wouldn't be flipping my gak, especially if they outlined, in detail, what that extra time was necessary for.

If they proceeded to take another half a year, it might be another story (and based on their stance on refunds, I'd be permitted to do this easily, within certain parameters.

But agreed, when someone says they'll keep you in the loop after taking your money, and then doesn't keep you in the loop, all your left with is that they've taken your money.

**Asterios**

totally agree and why does it feel like I have started a trend on the KS forums with people changing their names asking for wave 2 info and such ?

**JohnHwangDD**

FWIW, a number of video games have this kind of issue. Steam "Early Access" saw Devs take money, putter away, and (maybe) finish the game that people paid for. Until recently, there was no way to get money back if the Dev didn't deliver. It took a mob with pitchforks to force refunds.

IMO, at some point, KS is going to have to look at insuring refunds.

**Forar**

Agreed. KS is bringing enough money, I think we're just one catastrofeth away from some solid legislation.

It was one thing to play a bit fast and loose when most of the projects were getting a couple of grand for X or Y thing in someone's basement.

When companies are raking in millions of dollars, there needs to be more than a "maybe we'll do it when we get around to it" along with a wink.

Backers should be patient and understanding, but creators shouldn't have a blank cheque to piss it all away on escorts and blow before discovering that oh noes they can't quite complete the 2000 figures for $50 they'd promised, who could've foreseen this?!?

Edit: and here's some repeat material. Considering how often PB copy/pastes things, I regret nothing.

Ninja Division, January 1st, 2015

"Wave 2 the product is currently in tooling. Ninja John was over in China a while ago to check it out as well."

"We were over in China a while ago to make sure everything was lined up and good to go. Wave 2 is in the tooling process. :-)"

"(This is John), as the creative director and manager of this project with Palladium, Wave 2 product has been approved and received in China for months now. I am not privy to the tooling process at this exact moment, as Palladium is managing their end process for the 2nd wave - but all content has been delivered and reviewed and accepted for mold making for a while now. Now, what we can do, is try and prod our pals at Palladium and get a status update for the community for you all. Wave 1 has only recently been pushed out to backers and retailers, so I am sure more product is soon to follow. Thank you for your time reaching out to us, we are happy to answer any questions to the best of our ability."

"Sorry guys, I cant comment as to anything there - but I know some great looking models have been delivered (OMG wait till you see the armored Valks) - and its churning and burning as we speak. I have not seen physical copies or mold masters yet, I will ask. (-Ninja John)"

These are items that have been "in tooling" for "months" since the beginning of the year, which was nearly 9 months ago.

Taking that "monthS", plural, at face value, we're up around what, 10-11+ months that Ninja Division has said that they were done and things were in "tooling", whatever that means?

Yes, granted, the Giant History Of Palladium And How Ninja Division Betrayed Them And Are Evil Incarnate might change that up a bit, but let's not forget, we have heard directly from the people who did the work that these figures are done, and have been done for something approaching (or over) a year now.

**paulson games**

Just to throw something out there for speculation, when I spoke to ND John at gencon last year (2014) he'd just gotten back from a visit to China, so if he's referencing that specific trip then items have "been in tooling" for well over a year. Now he could have made a more recent trip that he's referring to, but "several months" could be referring to 5+ months before the Jan statement (ie July 2014). Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if it were in fact a year (or longer) given how long of a lead time plastic projects take as every revision pushes thing back further in line and most injection molding companies are heavily booked so any minor delays/changes tend to result in the schedule slipping by several months rather than a few days or weeks. A lot of those companies are booked by quarterly blocks so if you miss a date due to changes you don't get another window for at least 3-4 months..

**Joyboozer**

He wasn't kidding about the wait until we saw the armoured valks, it's huge!