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**Asterios**

Talizvar wrote:
Sining wrote:
Doom seems to have been run intentionally to defraud backers though. The whole thing with the guy using other peoples names to promote the KS, getting the KS money, using it to move to another state, take uni courses and buy stuff etc, seems to indicate that.
What it did establish is what was promised needs to be fulfilled or some reimbursement.
What we are facing here is PB may not "feel like it" or the efforts may be inconvenient at the time or a financial hardship in their eyes and they decide to expand the timeline.
Say they spent all the money on the KS, now it is out of their pocket to complete the promises.
If they can push out production, not creating anything tangible for 10 years, can anyone say they do not intend on completing what was promised?
They are very quick to point out that the "estimated completion" is just that, when does it get ridiculous in the eyes of the law? (obviously not in PB's projects)

PB is quick to point out their high amount of frustration, that is typically at it's worst when things are out of your control.
I wonder if they are tapped out of money and us cheap hobbyists are not getting them the revenue they expect.
From the flurry of X-mas in July and "trinket" sales, these are unprecedented for PB so I can only assume this is the case.
It would be irritating to have a clear path to completion but stopped dead due to lack of liquidity.
If they came clean and said they ran out and the project was more than they expected, some support could be found for them.
Their hesitation to say anything can lead me to think money went to areas not directly part of fulfilling the KS rewards.

Anyway, repeating myself way too often.
I blame PB because of them not providing anything new!

the only places I can see KS funds going that PB could explain was reasonable to themselves is the NG books (gots to get them out), GC (gots to advertise), and keeping the lights on (gots to see where everything is).

Also the time limit that the AG's go after is 2 years.

the issue is, if PB is without money then they are just spinning their wheels and that won't wash with the AG's, right now PB is trying to scrape up loans and such to finish the project but not getting anywhere with it.

**Talizvar**

Asterios wrote:
the only places I can see KS funds going that PB could explain was reasonable to themselves is the NG books (gots to get them out), GC (gots to advertise), and keeping the lights on (gots to see where everything is).

This would be a form of legal suicide but I can see it being tempting.
I would say it is equally probable they just mismanaged the money on the project and it is gone through that, but they should request a refund on the dies: could not have been all that expensive.

Also the time limit that the AG's go after is 2 years.

Nice to know, that is probably the limit I can get a credit card company to consider... speaking of which: need to explore that avenue.

the issue is, if PB is without money then they are just spinning their wheels and that won't wash with the AG's, right now PB is trying to scrape up loans and such to finish the project but not getting anywhere with it.

Well, this is where it could go differently: if PB can show a best effort of the money being spent appropriately and the resources of the company are limited: it could be considered OK.
It would be difficult to penalize them if all efforts were made short of bankrupting themselves, even if they were less than straight with the consumer.

Only PB knows the answer to this and AG involvement would only get expensive if they are found of wrongdoing (forgot they may actually have to consult their lawyer at least once).

**warboss**

If they're short on money due to their own mismanagement (and I count potential poor vetting of Ninja Division as THEIR own mismanagement in choosing them) then they should come clean and put out what they can afford giving priority to what was unlocked in order in the battlecry pledge firstinstead of dicking around for years.

So, they keep taking off that the new sculpts unlocked from the very end until they can affort to design, produce, and ship them. From the previous thread, the VF-4, the experimentals, the SDF-1, Lancer, and Ghost in that order. If that's not enough, keep going. Note that this doesn't mean that they still develop it and sell it but just stiff backers. IF they make it later, they sell it to backers for the amounts they initially pledged at cost. What they shouldn't do is spend that KS money to make sculpts and then on top of that not ship them to backers; I say that as it seems like the Palladium style mismanagement type thing they're wont to do.

I'd rather have most of my pledge before I die instead of waiting until palladium gets around to it (hopefully before they die).

**Asterios**

Talizvar wrote:
Asterios wrote:
the only places I can see KS funds going that PB could explain was reasonable to themselves is the NG books (gots to get them out), GC (gots to advertise), and keeping the lights on (gots to see where everything is).
This would be a form of legal suicide but I can see it being tempting.

I would say it is equally probable they just mismanaged the money on the project and it is gone through that, but they should request a refund on the dies: could not have been all that expensive.

very tempting, they thought they had more then enough and before they knew it they were out of funds

look at this years GC booth and last years, they rent all that space and barely use half of it.

Talizvar wrote:
Asterios wrote:
Also the time limit that the AG's go after is 2 years.
Nice to know, that is probably the limit I can get a credit card company to consider... speaking of which: need to explore that avenue.

good luck with the card, but PB will claim they sent it.

Talizvar wrote:
Asterios wrote:
the issue is, if PB is without money then they are just spinning their wheels and that won't wash with the AG's, right now PB is trying to scrape up loans and such to finish the project but not getting anywhere with it.
Well, this is where it could go differently: if PB can show a best effort of the money being spent appropriately and the resources of the company are limited: it could be considered OK.
It would be difficult to penalize them if all efforts were made short of bankrupting themselves, even if they were less than straight with the consumer.

Only PB knows the answer to this and AG involvement would only get expensive if they are found of wrongdoing (forgot they may actually have to consult their lawyer at least once).

look whats been shown for wave 2, that is not a best effort but laziness they have shown a total of maybe one days worth of work, hell Kevin spent more time defending and whining then working on wave 2.

**ThaneCawdor**

Asterios wrote:

Also the time limit that the AG's go after is 2 years.

From personal experience that's not true, with the caveat that laws & regulatory practices may vary from state to state.

I work in Compliance, my job normally puts me on the other end of the complaints

**Asterios**

ThaneCawdor wrote:
Asterios wrote:

Also the time limit that the AG's go after is 2 years.

From personal experience that's not true, with the caveat that laws & regulatory practices may vary from state to state.

I work in Compliance, my job normally puts me on the other end of the complaints

actually for an open ended "Contract" like this with an estimated delivery time given(2 years after the estimated time given when money collected).

Also it appears Roy Kubicek is talking out of his rear ( http://daysofourtrailers.blogspot.com/2015/08/the-palladium-booksrobotech-rrt-fiasco.html ), well here is his proof that he says does not exist:

**ThaneCawdor**

And thats pretty much the AG equivalent to BBB practices. They took your letter of complaint, sent it or a summary to PB, and when they get a response they will forward it to you.

However the AG will read & file the response, and if there are concerns there, or perhaps with a dozen other complaints, that will start the investigation into "substantive proof"

That's also why i recommend everyone filing with the MI AG as well. He has jurisdiction due to PBs location as well, and instead of a few CA complaints, an IL complaint... .he gets the full picture that way

**Asterios**

ThaneCawdor wrote:
And thats pretty much the AG equivalent to BBB practices. They took your letter of complaint, sent it or a summary to PB, and when they get a response they will forward it to you.

However the AG will read & file the response, and if there are concerns there, or perhaps with a dozen other complaints, that will start the investigation into "substantive proof"

That's also why i recommend everyone filing with the MI AG as well. He has jurisdiction due to PBs location as well, and instead of a few CA complaints, an IL complaint... .he gets the full picture that way

yeah well if Kevin gives my States AG the same response he gave the BBB Pb is screwed.

also you'll notice it sent an inquiry top PB from their offices too, not just my complaint.

as it goes this is just the complaint and inquiry stage, next is PB's response and evidentiary stage where evidence will be presented from both sides, also have filed with the Michigan AG but no response from them yet, which could mean one of many things.

**IGotMoose**

Here's my BBB response from Palladium.

**Alpharius**

Whole lotta cuttin' 'n' pastin' goin' on!

**Asterios**

noticed he clarified the "Not an investment into Palladium books inc." part but all in all just a canned response.

**warboss**

Asterios wrote:
noticed he clarified the "Not an investment into Palladium books inc." part but all in all just a canned response.

Doesn't matter. He's on record as referring to it as such until "corrected" by the very people he dislikes so much, the backers.

**Asterios**

warboss wrote:
Asterios wrote:
noticed he clarified the "Not an investment into Palladium books inc." part but all in all just a canned response.

Doesn't matter. He's on record as referring to it as such until "corrected" by the very people he dislikes so much, the backers.

well thing is there are certain laws in Michigan which frown on what he was saying earlier and calling it an investment.

**Cypher-xv**

Someone posted this on FB.

"A lawyer friend of mine said that KS is an investment platform in disguise, and that in a lawsuit, that would be the model pursued in court. That's just his word on it, so whatever. I suspect that no matter what Siembieda says, that's going to be how the courts will view it."

**Asterios**

problem is Michigan has strict investment laws when it comes to out of state investment collections.

**Joyboozer**

I can see the update now, Kevin throws Kickstarter under the bus, they told him it was responsibility free money!

**Merijeek**

Hey, can't blame Kevin on that one. The White Knights (in ANY Kickstarter) always break that out as their first line of defense.

"The creator doesn't owe you ANYTHING YOU ENTITLED LOSER! This is a gift based on a dream. If it all got spent on hookers and blow it doesn't matter because they don't owe you anything!!!!1!1!"

**JohnHwangDD**

If monies are collected post-KS via Pledge Manager (or better yet, Web Store), you had damn well better believe that things have moved from "gift" to sales.

In fact, from a legal standpoint, if KS doesn't get their gak together, we might see pledges reduce in order to take advantage of likely consumer protections tied to what clearly become preorders in every legal and consumer sense.

**Merijeek**

Hey, I want my Monster too. And it might actually be under the 200 parts Simbieda originally thought a large model (with "mouth watering detail!!!) absolutely must have.

**ced1106**

Note that the CA AG letter says, "when substantive evidence is presented to us".

If the WA AG is anything to go on, this translates to "if you don't have a lawyer who gathers this info for us, we're not going to do anything". While the WA AG is taking credit for the Asylum Bicycle playing cards KS, in reality, the unpaid artist and a lawyer backer working pro bono had to gather the evidence to present to the WA AG. (The artist lives overseas, so agreed with another party in the US, who collected the funds for him and forward the money to him. Did. Not. Work. Out. That. Way.) I don't know if the FTC settlement against the Doom that Came to Atlantic City involved a backer lawyer working for free. Do we have any idea if a lawyer is working pro bono to bring legal action against Palladium?

**Cypher-xv**

According to Rick his is and when PB has to pay fines and such Kevin will pay Rick's lawyers fees. Or something like that.

**JohnHwangDD**

IOW, Palladium Books indemnify them against legal costs. If people wanted to bankrupt PB out of spite, running up 3rd party legal fees would be an easy way to do it...

Of course, that's playing with fire - if they countersue, you could go down in flames, too...

Fortunately, PB doesn't have the time or resources for extended legal campaigns.

**Mike1975**

Hey Richard, this is for your Bioroids. I'll upload to the Google Drive later.

**Talizvar**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
If monies are collected post-KS via Pledge Manager (or better yet, Web Store), you had damn well better believe that things have moved from "gift" to sales.

Kevin will argue with you on that point, his BBB reply to me says it rolls-in as "funding".
This of course means nothing because it still boils down to how long can he delay till the law feels the timeline = too long.

In fact, from a legal standpoint, if KS doesn't get their gak together, we might see pledges reduce in order to take advantage of likely consumer protections tied to what clearly become preorders in every legal and consumer sense.

Some clarity on a "pre-order" standpoint would be a fine thing.
Pre-orders had been added to the list for me of never doing: there is no consumer advantage "usually" in them.

**Asterios**

ced1106 wrote:
Note that the CA AG letter says, "when substantive evidence is presented to us".

If the WA AG is anything to go on, this translates to "if you don't have a lawyer who gathers this info for us, we're not going to do anything". While the WA AG is taking credit for the Asylum Bicycle playing cards KS, in reality, the unpaid artist and a lawyer backer working pro bono had to gather the evidence to present to the WA AG. (The artist lives overseas, so agreed with another party in the US, who collected the funds for him and forward the money to him. Did. Not. Work. Out. That. Way.) I don't know if the FTC settlement against the Doom that Came to Atlantic City involved a backer lawyer working for free. Do we have any idea if a lawyer is working pro bono to bring legal action against Palladium?

the gathering of evidence is not hard, just bring together the kickstarter and the current state law, hell I don't need a lawyer to do that with my Paralegal degree, its easy plus I have access to a legal library and my Black's Law Dictionary

the FTC was their own case.

Cypher-xv wrote:
According to Rick his is and when PB has to pay fines and such Kevin will pay Rick's lawyers fees. Or something like that.

thats if I sue them, won't need my lawyer for a state CPA case.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
IOW, Palladium Books indemnify them against legal costs. If people wanted to bankrupt PB out of spite, running up 3rd party legal fees would be an easy way to do it...

Of course, that's playing with fire - if they countersue, you could go down in flames, too...

Fortunately, PB doesn't have the time or resources for extended legal campaigns.

countersue for what? they have nothing to sue me over.

Mike1975 wrote:
Hey Richard, this is for your Bioroids. I'll upload to the Google Drive later.

problem is your squads are 6 bioroid squads, the show only had them in 3 man squads, what is it with people not doing robotech squads in 3 like the show?

**Forar**

Asterios wrote:
Mike1975 wrote:
Hey Richard, this is for your Bioroids. I'll upload to the Google Drive later.

Thank you, Mike. In the show they were often 3 man squads, any chance you might have a 3 figure version, or be willing to quickly draft one up with the numbers you're using?

You had a typo. Several of them, actually.

I have fixed them for you.

**Morgan Vening**

Forar wrote:
Asterios wrote:
Mike1975 wrote:
Hey Richard, this is for your Bioroids. I'll upload to the Google Drive later.

Thank you, Mike. In the show they were often 3 man squads, any chance you might have a 3 figure version, or be willing to quickly draft one up with the numbers you're using?

You had a typo. Several of them, actually.

I have fixed them for you.

Well said. Just because two people have diametrically different opinions on a subject matter, when one does a favor without condition for the other, being a dick about it shouldn't be the first resort.

**Asterios**

Forar wrote:
Asterios wrote:
Mike1975 wrote:
Hey Richard, this is for your Bioroids. I'll upload to the Google Drive later.

Thank you, Mike. In the show they were often 3 man squads, any chance you might have a 3 figure version, or be willing to quickly draft one up with the numbers you're using?

You had a typo. Several of them, actually.

I have fixed them for you.

oops my bad thought I put thanks Mike on there but forgot

**Mike1975**

Yes, they are in fact in 3 man Squads.....if you look.

Squadrons on the other hand are in 6 because 9 would make them a bit too big and make squad cards harder to make at 1/3 a full squadron instead of 1/2.

We also know that killing one weakened the other three but that only showed up when the Invid Killers appeared and was not pointed out or spoke about with any of the other units. So I have endeavored to design accordingly. We also know the Greenies were seen on the ships and I think they were only seen once on land. The Boiroids also need some sort of VF-1J sub-commander so I thought that might work better than just floods of blues. To balance it out with the rest some tinkering needs to be done but I feel that they match pretty well.

If you got any ideas though...feel free to share them.

**Asterios**

My point Mike is the Robotech Masters did all things in 3, not 6 or 9, but 3 even the civilians walked around in 3's that was their holy mantra and everything was based a round the number 3 not the rule of 3 but the triad, trinity, triumvirate, always 3's, the floating pods of the leaders were 3 per floating pod even.