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 warboss wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
He's been putting them up himself first? That's pretty gross, and might explain the delay on Palladium posting them officially.

Unless I'm wrong, I suspect you've got the timing/causality reversed. From Mike's posts here, he seems feed up that the rules he either heavily influenced or flat out created and submitted to Palladium haven't been posted for months after they were supposed to because Palladium hasn't gotten around to even formating them in RRPGT style... so he published them himself as a response to Palladium's inaction... not the other way around. It seems that even when they get work FOR FREE from Valued BackersTM sadly Palladium can't be bothered to put forth a token effort to get that product out on time.

I think you and a couple of other responders missed the joke he was attempting to make. I was going to make the same kind of response, until I saw what he was getting at.

Joyboozer's response was in your post to Mike that read

Yup, thanks. I got the bump on the other thread but I wasn't sure if Palladium responded by putting out the "official" version of the same thing in response to your putting it up yourself first.

He was making the joke that if the pause isn't before "yourself", but instead after it, it's referencing a bodily insertion, typically into the posterior.

That's not to say the joke was funny, but I doubt he was intending to be taken as serious.

Joyboozer wrote:
I was just making fun of what warboss posted about mike putting them up himself, it sounds gross, I didn't actually mean anything else other than that.

Ah, my bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgan Vening wrote:


He was making the joke that if the pause isn't before "yourself", but instead after it, it's referencing a bodily insertion, typically into the posterior.

That's not to say the joke was funny, but I doubt he was intending to be taken as serious.

Indeed, it went completely over my head. I just didn't get that he was talking about Uranus.

Merijeek wrote:

 warboss wrote:

I played various Palladium RPGs for over a decade. Terrible rules have NEVER been a reason not to publish a product!

Rules written by The Simbieda, by definition, can not be terrible.

That's because his team really holds him to account, rather than blowing smoke up his ass. If it's bad, they say so. But more often than not, it's his best work ever.

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=142888

So can a Cat's Eye attach to a Core Squadron of Valkyries? Just want to be sure. I think that the rules look good. 7 command points for a cat's eye seems a little high though. Can you offer some design insight as to why it gets so many? I would think 4-5 would be fair. Additionally, do you have to pay command points for use of it's abilities?

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
So can a Cat's Eye attach to a Core Squadron of Valkyries? Just want to be sure. I think that the rules look good. 7 command points for a cat's eye seems a little high though. Can you offer some design insight as to why it gets so many? I would think 4-5 would be fair.

well a CatsEye has a bigger picture of the field then say your average veritech and such so it would know more about what is going on and what to do.

plus I have my newest version of the cats eye being done now on shapeways, it will have a more rounded dome and canopies and a hole for the magnet to attach it to a stem(figured I'd save me the time of drilling out a hole for a magnet and just have it shaped into the plane itself), wheee.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
So can a Cat's Eye attach to a Core Squadron of Valkyries? Just want to be sure. I think that the rules look good. 7 command points for a cat's eye seems a little high though. Can you offer some design insight as to why it gets so many? I would think 4-5 would be fair. Additionally, do you have to pay command points for use of it's abilities?

Since the whole Cat's Eye was designed as a support and to help others in combat ops it has a high number of Command Points to represent the info it is feeding to commanders as well as what the crew does directly.....that was the thought process at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's a special and so could be attached to a single VF Squadron.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also look at the price of a Cat's Eye, as much as 4 VT's, no firepower. Only real use is scenario or as a force multiplier in a larger battle.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Merijeek wrote:

 warboss wrote:

I played various Palladium RPGs for over a decade. Terrible rules have NEVER been a reason not to publish a product!

Rules written by The Simbieda, by definition, can not be terrible.

That's because his team really holds him to account, rather than blowing smoke up his ass. If it's bad, they say so. But more often than not, it's his best work ever.

That's probably the most impressive part. Do you have any idea how hard it is to, literally, make the most recent thing you've done the BEST thing you've ever done?

Merijeek wrote:

 Lynx7725 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Actually thanks for the support. The rules have been ready since June or July. PB has been "reviewing" them this whole time. Jaymz got sick of PB and the wait and posted them up himself on a few locations so there was no reason for me to hold back any longer either since they are in a way already public. He put them up in my FB group and a few others that I am not a member of.

3+ months just to review... nuts. They have no sense of timing or urgency.

More like "THESE RULES ARE TERRIBLE! There isn't a single 98% in here ANYWHERE!"

Maybe they ran out of TMs and ® symbols and had to order more from the factory.

I think Mikes experience of dealing with Wayne shows exactly why this project has had so many delays, the only thing Palladium can truly claim to do professionally is bottleneck.
This should be a lesson for any of you running your own businesses, no matter how hard you work on your end, if your client is a useless turd, you'll get nowhere.
The moment a client starts telling me how busy they are I mentally double their quote, sometimes triple. Not to try and rip them off, or put them off accepting my price ( most of the time), but for the simple fact that every approval deadline will be missed costing time and money.
I feel for Mike, ND and their Chinese broker.

 Lynx7725 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Actually thanks for the support. The rules have been ready since June or July. PB has been "reviewing" them this whole time. Jaymz got sick of PB and the wait and posted them up himself on a few locations so there was no reason for me to hold back any longer either since they are in a way already public. He put them up in my FB group and a few others that I am not a member of.

3+ months just to review... nuts. They have no sense of timing or urgency.

Exactly right and when it comes to anything fan or freelance submitted it takes time for Kevin the Great to rewrite 98% of it so he can take 100% of the credit.

Merijeek wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Merijeek wrote:

 warboss wrote:

I played various Palladium RPGs for over a decade. Terrible rules have NEVER been a reason not to publish a product!

Rules written by The Simbieda, by definition, can not be terrible.

That's because his team really holds him to account, rather than blowing smoke up his ass. If it's bad, they say so. But more often than not, it's his best work ever.

That's probably the most impressive part. Do you have any idea how hard it is to, literally, make the most recent thing you've done the BEST thing you've ever done?

If your starting bar is low enough...

For example, peeing on shoes. If your standard is filling both shoes, and you graduate to merely dribbling on one, that's a huge improvement! Best day ever!

I believe that is the motivation placard in the Palladium lunch room above the fridge that was the scene of the Dastardly Palladium Scribbles Theft of 2015TM.

How is it every game I jump into playing lately is in dire straits?

Is Robotech a dying game? Should one perhaps get out while the getting is sort of good?

Dying? That would require life first. Because of Palladium's treatment of backers and general incompetence resulting in 1-2 years delay and counting, it was stillborne to begin with.

Sadly, the game could have been good, too. The rules aren't bad for a first try at miniatures gaming rules, there is less goofiness in rules wording in it than a typical GW game. The armies seem rather well balanced, apart from the original blast rules, and the pod kickline of doom. To much time was spent in the melee options department, and that needs a bit of streamlining. LoS needs to be looked at a bit more closely.

The formations are a neat idea, a reason to stay in coherency, rather than being force to do it, and even benefits for not being in coherency in certain circumstances.

Yes, there are issues with each of my generalizations, but those appear to be more of an outlier than the norm. The rules are easy to learn, and the game plays pretty quickly. Sadly, it will never go anywhere do to the mismanagement, and overall poor communication of those in charge of it.

From my point of view:

• This game is awesome. It has some flaws...but it isn't quite the hot mess that 40k is right now. It's a refreshing change. I have recommended it to anyone that's willing to try it out...and have gotten 4 new people interested and playing regularly.

• The game is easy to learn, is fun, and plays quickly. Set up time is quick...so you aren't spending 30 minutes just trying to set up before turn 1.

• This game had a great chance at being a popular game but hasn't been given the support that is required of a wargame. PB is completely and totally clueless as to how to successfully push this game into the mainstream channels. No where on their website is there a splash page featuring the game, nor is there anywhere on their website showing off properly painted models, multiple views, etc. Every other miniatures producer is doing this. The cool factor of the models and showing it off is a huge factor in drawing players in. None of this exists. They really over looked this and/or do not deem it important. Huge mistake.

• Support for this game beyond the kickstarter has been pathetic from PB. I understand that people are waiting for Wave 2 and that a massive amount of energy should be devoted to completing it...however, if PB's goal is to make this into a flagship game..then they should treat it as such and we should expect them to support it as such beyond the kickstarter. I see a lot of people slamming PB for attempting (albeit poor attempts) anything beyond Wave 2. That's nonsense. Now, I'm not going to defend PB and their horrible handling of any of it. However, anyone that wants or has wanted this game to have longevity should at least support any additions to this game beyond Wave 2. If not, then please...feel free to sell your stuff and move on. There is many people like me that want this game to endure...despite PBs stupidity, naiveté, and lack of listening to anyone willing to give solid input to make things better. Their hubris knows no bounds.

• The lack of any new releases dooms this game as it falls off the radar. Lets just drop the pretense of Convention Exclusives...and make those game pieces for general release. Furthermore, you are a 1/3 of the way there in completing a Super Valk set...at this point you may as well make the fighter and battloid in pewter, PB...you are already a 1/3 of the way there. Same with the male power armor. I would think sculpting a new set of arms for different poses to add to that blister pack would be fairly inexpensive...yet allows you to deliver a unit to people that are wanting it. It also satisfies part of Wave 2. Same with female power armor. Having and expecting these units made in something other than plastic should have been the goal from the beginning. You don't need that many of them for the game..and aren't a cornerstone to the core of the factions. PB should have made all core units in plastic (which they did) and any elite/special units in resin or pewter..simply for the fact that you don't need that many. They could have solved a lot of wave 2 issues by going this route. Hey PB, stop it. Just release these models to the general public now. People want the units to use. Let them have what they want.

• Cat's Eye, Comanchero, and Sea Sergeant game pieces. Come on PB...make these in pewter or resin...and sell them with cards. This is easily one of the simplest things you can do and get a new model release by years end. These exist outside of Wave 2..but people will want them.

• Competitive play and league packets. This is the easiest thing to complete and should have been released within the first 2 weeks of the games release to the general public. I have a working draft of this stuff...but it doesn't seem like anyone really cares. I also have campaign packets in the works.

• Booster packs of Special character cards. This is another easy product to release. I have created some special character cards that add to the game play of the game without the need of models. PB should release alternate versions of our heroes to change up strategies and tactics. Maybe a better Rick Hunter card to represent him at the end of the Macross series..a veteran pilot of Skull One. His current card to me, reads as where he was as leader of Vermillion Squad. Get them made and put them into general release. I think a booster pack of special characters from each faction would be a fun little micro purchase.

• I think that we are all in agreement that PB handling of this game sucks...but despite PBs stupidity..if you are a person like me that wants this game to have longevity and stick around..we should be supportive of any efforts from PB to grow the game...or anyone like Mike that adds things to the game. The burden of all this should fall to PB though. If they truly cared for this game as a flagship product...then dammit treat it as such. To think that the two RPG books they are working on right now instead of Robotech is somehow going to generate longer term gains...is really short sighted. Robotech has the chance to be their primary income generator if they chose to treat it as such. Sadly, that isn't the case.

So here we all are...wanting new content, wanting new models, and have to take what we can get from PB or create it ourselves.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mike1975 wrote:

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
So can a Cat's Eye attach to a Core Squadron of Valkyries? Just want to be sure. I think that the rules look good. 7 command points for a cat's eye seems a little high though. Can you offer some design insight as to why it gets so many? I would think 4-5 would be fair. Additionally, do you have to pay command points for use of it's abilities?

Since the whole Cat's Eye was designed as a support and to help others in combat ops it has a high number of Command Points to represent the info it is feeding to commanders as well as what the crew does directly.....that was the thought process at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's a special and so could be attached to a single VF Squadron.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also look at the price of a Cat's Eye, as much as 4 VT's, no firepower. Only real use is scenario or as a force multiplier in a larger battle.

Are it's abilities always active or do they require the expenditure of Command Points to use? The card isn't very clear on that.

The Good
The idea of Robotech as a tabletop game is quite good.
The bones of the rules play well, I quite like them.
The book is quite nice looking as well.
The images / look of the individual models are iconic and gain interest from pretty much anyone who sees them.
The starter box is impressive looking both exterior and volume of contents.
Despite delays of new models (wave 2) some new models are available due to GHQ releases so there are a couple things to be excited about.

BUT

The Bad
Models are a bit of a challenge for the newbie both in how tiny they are and parts count.
The challenge is even greater initially with no numbers or identification of the parts (alleviated with follow-up documents).
The time it takes to make a sufficient number of models to play is a bit of a barrier for the impatient.
PB's rather low/slow advertising / support of the game is noticeably unexciting compared to other companies.
The core "support group" (KS backers) for the game has been "shafted" with a long wait for promised miniatures (wave 2): we are rather torn in promoting the game.
PB is a company that historically is happy to take your money for a "pre-order" and the customer does not see results for years or at all: not a practice you want to support.

The 15mm consideration we can chalk-up to a joke now right?

 CaptKaruthors wrote:


• This game had a great chance at being a popular game but hasn't been given the support that is required of a wargame. PB is completely and totally clueless as to how to successfully push this game into the mainstream channels. No where on their website is there a splash page featuring the game, nor is there anywhere on their website showing off properly painted models, multiple views, etc. Every other miniatures producer is doing this. The cool factor of the models and showing it off is a huge factor in drawing players in. None of this exists. They really over looked this and/or do not deem it important. Huge mistake.

I suggested these things to them 5-6 months ago to try to help them. Free advice because I like this thing and want to see it succeed. I tried to give them a sense of what the expectations of miniatures wargamers are from companies for successful games. I was told that KS himself liked my ideas. That was apparently the end of it.

• Support for this game beyond the kickstarter has been pathetic from PB. I understand that people are waiting for Wave 2 and that a massive amount of energy should be devoted to completing it...however, if PB's goal is to make this into a flagship game..then they should treat it as such and we should expect them to support it as such beyond the kickstarter.

They are used to putting out rpg books and no support. There's not much reason to provide a lot of support to rpg games. It's a different kind of hobby.
It seems that just are not interested in adjusting how they do things to facilitate a different type of game.

I see a lot of people slamming PB for attempting (albeit poor attempts) anything beyond Wave 2. That's nonsense. Now, I'm not going to defend PB and their horrible handling of any of it. However, anyone that wants or has wanted this game to have longevity should at least support any additions to this game beyond Wave 2.

Yeah, I agree with that. I spent a lot on the exclusives, both because I wanted them and also because I wanted to continue the support the game.
Even if they are "working" on Wave 2, that doesn't mean that it takes all their time and they could be also making additional materials available to us to expand the game while we wait, while also generating revenue.
The problems for this are twofold:
1) It's understandable that those who are waiting for Wave 2, with all the delays and poor communication and broken promises don't want to invest more in the game until, at the very least, they get Wave 2.
2) It's hard not to be in the first group who don't want to invest more when PB is obviously unwilling to correct their poor communications, broken promises and delays. When they announced the conventional rules and miniatures, I was pretty excited over them. I was even willing to support them by ordering the miniatures through PB instead of GHQ. Then they missed their self-imposed advertised deadline, then they missed their second self-imposed advertised deadline, etc. Then they tell us that they may or may not sell the models, afterall. And we hear from the people who did the work on those rules, for free, because they love the game, that PB had been sitting on them unattended this entire time.
Where are their priorities? To make money? To keep their word? To be concerned about their reputation?
No. I think they are simply interested in maintaining business as usual. It's a wonder that they tell us they don't understand why they have such little recognition in the greater gaming world.

• Cat's Eye, Comanchero, and Sea Sergeant game pieces. Come on PB...make these in pewter or resin...and sell them with cards. This is easily one of the simplest things you can do and get a new model release by years end. These exist outside of Wave 2..but people will want them.

People do want them, they put the Comanchero up for pre-order then took it down because they really weren't going to make it any time soon and just wanted to gauge interest.
They probably look at weak sales of the exclusives and weak preorders for the conventionals and think nobody wants Comancheros. They don't see they are directly responsible for weak sales.

• Booster packs of Special character cards. This is another easy product to release. I have created some special character cards that add to the game play of the game without the need of models. PB should release alternate versions of our heroes to change up strategies and tactics. Maybe a better Rick Hunter card to represent him at the end of the Macross series..a veteran pilot of Skull One. His current card to me, reads as where he was as leader of Vermillion Squad. Get them made and put them into general release. I think a booster pack of special characters from each faction would be a fun little micro purchase.

This is a good idea and previously suggested by others. Even if they were to work on this, which I doubt they would even though it is just printing cards (and they are used to printing things), they would still need to run this by HG.

In fact, just about everything needs HG approval. Good luck to them when it comes to that, because as slow and intractable as PB is, HG's Robotech people are downright lazy.

• I think that we are all in agreement that PB handling of this game sucks...but despite PBs stupidity..if you are a person like me that wants this game to have longevity and stick around..we should be supportive of any efforts from PB to grow the game...or anyone like Mike that adds things to the game.

Yup.

 Talizvar wrote:

The 15mm consideration we can chalk-up to a joke now right?

I believe that's pronounced "distraction".

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
• I think that we are all in agreement that PB handling of this game sucks...but despite PBs stupidity..if you are a person like me that wants this game to have longevity and stick around..we should be supportive of any efforts from PB to grow the game...or anyone like Mike that adds things to the game. The burden of all this should fall to PB though. If they truly cared for this game as a flagship product...then dammit treat it as such. To think that the two RPG books they are working on right now instead of Robotech is somehow going to generate longer term gains...is really short sighted. Robotech has the chance to be their primary income generator if they chose to treat it as such. Sadly, that isn't the case.

So here we all are...wanting new content, wanting new models, and have to take what we can get from PB or create it ourselves.

Wrong I would rather see PB burn then continue to wait for them, they are a very disfunctional game company that does not deserve to continue to exist.

As to getting new pieces I'm already doing that myself I have been punching out new units left and right and Mike and Jaymz have been punching out Cards and rules, everyone is putting out new stuff for this game but PB, the ones who should be doing it.

and it is because of that, PB does not deserve this game nor any respect or support from anyone.

Also the reason PB did not produce the Comanchero is because it would have cost them much more money to make the molds and such, unlike the other units which GHQ had molds made of already.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

• Support for this game beyond the kickstarter has been pathetic from PB. I understand that people are waiting for Wave 2 and that a massive amount of energy should be devoted to completing it...however, if PB's goal is to make this into a flagship game..then they should treat it as such and we should expect them to support it as such beyond the kickstarter. I see a lot of people slamming PB for attempting (albeit poor attempts) anything beyond Wave 2. That's nonsense. Now, I'm not going to defend PB and their horrible handling of any of it. However, anyone that wants or has wanted this game to have longevity should at least support any additions to this game beyond Wave 2.

While I agree with most of what you wrote, I don't think that black and white statement really reflects the various shades of brown that this kickstarter and project have become. I've been a vocal critic of palladium here on dakka (and in the past on the megaversal forums as well as the kickstarter comments, neither of which I have participated in since the unnecessary scale debate). Despite that, I would have supported their efforts to expand the game beyond just wave 2 if they had shown any legitimate progress on wave 2. Unfortuantely, they're using those supposed expansions instead as distractions. They're Emperor Kevin's version of hosting some gladiatorial games to placate the unruly masses instead of dealing with the rampant disease, corruption, starvation, and crime that is really causing the discontent... and he can't even succeed at that even when the gladiators volunteer to fight! Just like with the gencon sham vote, he's screwing up even distracting the most loyal customers despite getting free labor. I'm not "slamming PB for attempting anything beyond Wave 2" but rather slamming palladium for pretending to do something beyond wave 2 as a means to distract folks into ignoring the real issues for a short time.

At this point I'm not sure I want to support this game anymore. At least when it comes to giving PB any money even if wave two comes out.

The way I look at it is that PB expected to handle RRT in the same way they handled their RPG -- spurts of support here, there, whenever it was necessary convenient. You can do that with RPGs, but tabletop gaming doesn't work that way; small skirmish scale games can, but if you wanted to do that way you won't go plastic; sticking to small runs of metal or resin minis would be more suitable.

Once you go into mass production by plastic, you imply a certain level of combat scale in the game. That sort of tabletop wargame is hugely expensive in terms of company support and engagement, and PB is clearly (now, in hindsight) not set up to handle. They are clearly, clearly very out of touch with the wargaming community expectations.

I could have been generous and said ND was expected to front that, but I figured, hey PB probably threw ND down in front of the bus, so no reason not to tar PB with that particular brush.

To get a new, company-level wargame going, you sort of need to have a lot of close customer engagement and quick turnaround on feedback, as well as a constant stream of new products to keep interest going. Palladium never had that, preferring to be "admired/ worshipped" from afar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cypher-xv wrote:
At this point I'm not sure I want to support this game anymore. At least when it comes to giving PB any money even if wave two comes out.

You don't need to. If you have pledged for Wave 2, you get what you pledge for (hopefully), and the money is already committed.

If you want more Wave 2 stuff, by all means get them. Because think about it, the core units are all already out in Wave 1, and Wave 2 stuff is mostly specialist units that you're not likely to get more than a handful. Core units are where companies make the most money, and RRT is so dead right now, those Wave 1 stuff can't be moving very much.

Wave 2 comes out, there will be spurt of interest, but let's be honest, PB is not likely going to hire new people to specifically manage/ grow this game -- their track record is way too tight-fisted with money to spend on staffing. So whatever revenue that comes out will be more short term, and that's just going to disappear fairly quickly. Long term, the odds that RRT will grow to be a cash cow is very, very low.

What I'm hoping for, is that Wave 2 gets done (which I think it will... eventually), backers get their gak, PB realises that the steel they cut are worthless since they can't recoup, and then sells the whole rights and material away to someone who's more savvy about promoting and sustaining the game. Or keels over and the same thing happens.

Which leads me to a point I was thinking. By putting up cardboard standees of the units, it's like we've gone back to the good old days of Battletech with their cardboard mechs. Why would I bother to pick up those troublesome-to-assemble minis when I can just print them out by the carton? It strikes me that their interim solution to get stuff out to people to play, they end up cutting (albeit likely slightly) into their own plastic sales in the future.

Wrong I would rather see PB burn then continue to wait for them, they are a very disfunctional game company that does not deserve to continue to exist.

As to getting new pieces I'm already doing that myself I have been punching out new units left and right and Mike and Jaymz have been punching out Cards and rules, everyone is putting out new stuff for this game but PB, the ones who should be doing it.

and it is because of that, PB does not deserve this game nor any respect or support from anyone.

Also the reason PB did not produce the Comanchero is because it would have cost them much more money to make the molds and such, unlike the other units which GHQ had molds made of already.

Thank you for your insight.

GHQ made the convention exclusives...they could have made a comanchero and a cat's eye...at the same time and sold to the general public.

If you are making models of these units...care to share them then with the community? I know I'd like some Gnerls...

PS: find me a small game company that isn't disfunctional on some level

He's already made a cats eye.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
He's already made a cats eye.

Yes, I understand that. My point was if he's making them and wants to support the game and players, i was hoping they'd be shared among the community. Otherwise, how does it help the people who don't have one...but want one. My modeling/sculpting skills suck..having me make my own is out of the question.

PB and/or HG will suddenly find some energy and shut him down fast.

Captkruthors, I agree with everything you posted and think you should post it as a topic everywhere you can, maybe even submit it as an article at Beasts if War.

I would like to point out that "sell off what you have and be done with it" is a bit harder to do when competing with CoolStuffInc's sales, a niche of a niche of a niche fanbase/playerbase, and the fact that between outstanding wave 2 figures (battle cry and add ons) people may still be in for a solid chunk of change ($100+).

Hell, the friends that I backed with are in for like $200+ in add ons alone, plus 8 battle cry tiers between us (however you cut it, a substantial amount of money).

Frankly, PB doesn't get off the hook that easily. If they don't want to pay out or deliver, they will get to deal with those 5k+ upset nerds. And while I and many others might not have legal avenues available, something like 4k'ish of the backer base are Americans, so... yeah, good luck with that.

 Forar wrote:
I would like to point out that "sell off what you have and be done with it" is a bit harder to do when competing with CoolStuffInc's sales

Indeed. I learned this lesson with Sedition Wars.

I wish I had never pledged SedWars.