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I think ND made the same mistakes that just about every big miniature Kickstarter was making at the same time. They weren't anywhere over or below the curve in my estimation.

What's followed though is the worst of the worst outside of outright intentional fraud. As the product owners it falls on Palladium to fix these messes.

and is paying the price as reality struck

 n815e wrote:

Every complaint about the sculpting of the miniatures is down to them.

They were the "professionals" who didn't know that they programs they used were incompatible with China's?

ND were partners in this mess. It's funny how so many are willing to place every single thing in PB's lap. It's obvious that ND have their share of blame, as does HG.

Don't forget the factory in china that did the actual parts splitting to prioritize their own time/machines/effort and not the final visual effect or ease of assembly! Yes, ND does deserve a portion of the blame but by all accounts, they stopped contributing to the mess over a year and a half ago. They're done and gone. There is only so much blame I can assign to a company that has been hands off since summer of 2014 when so many new and continuing problems exist over a year later. There is plenty of blame to go around but the lion's share falls straight into Kevin Siembieda's lap. Also, it is important to note that subsequent projects by ND have seemingly improved since they screwed up on Robotech and Relic Knights so they at least seemed to have learned a lesson. Palladium, however, still plods along getting stuck in the same ditches over and over again.

I'm in no way shifting blame from Palladium.
I'm merely stating that ND is not blameless and that the problems they caused should be acknowledged. They have distanced themselves from this project, but that's because they are trying to distance themselves from their own mistakes.

If we take the stance, as Rick would have it, that it is all under Palladium's umbrella and therefore all Palladium's fault, then we should go a step further and say it is all Harmony Gold's fault.

The reality is that ND, HG and PB were partners in this.

Don't forget the factory in china that did the actual parts splitting

Yes, you are right about that as well. I like building models -- so the parts count for me is not a negative. The choices made in how the parts were split, however, were poor in many instances.

 n815e wrote:
I'm in no way shifting blame from Palladium.
I'm merely stating that ND is not blameless and that the problems they caused should be acknowledged. They have distanced themselves from this project, but that's because they are trying to distance themselves from their own mistakes.

If we take the stance, as Rick would have it, that it is all under Palladium's umbrella and therefore all Palladium's fault, then we should go a step further and say it is all Harmony Gold's fault.

The reality is that ND, HG and PB were partners in this.

Don't forget the factory in china that did the actual parts splitting

Yes, you are right about that as well. I like building models -- so the parts count for me is not a negative. The choices made in how the parts were split, however, were poor in many instances.

my point is if ND screwed up then PB should have dealt with it, but PB didn't, which tells me that you are over assuming that ND erred, every part where you think ND made a mistake I bet there is also a reason where PB did the screw up.

I'm trying to get a better idea of time estimates involved for mass production, so I went back to look over the remaining stuff that need to be delivered. There's what, about 14 unit boxes? With 3 Valk-types (which are more complex) and a MAC II, that makes it more IMO the equivalent of some 18 unit boxes... call it 20 unit boxes, for easier number management.

So basically, these 20 units need to have their sprue mold designed and cut, and then manufacturing time arranged for the correct amount of sprues to be produced. We also need to provide for ancillary production, such as printing the boxes and instructions/ decals, and then packing the whole lot into reasonable units. Finally, shipping to US from China.

So let's work backwards. On a slow ship from China to US, that takes to my understanding, what, 4 to 6 weeks? More if peak period, or port strikes, or customs.

Manufacturing just the sprue is actually likely the least lengthy period, with the constraint being how many molds the manufacturer can simultaneously run. Assuming PB ask for 5000 box per unit, and to my understanding that's a low volume (which would bump the order down the priority queue), that's 100,000 boxes.. I'm not that familiar with injection molding production rates, but I imagine with mold swapping and shifts and all, 2 weeks should be enough to punch out that many.

It's really the packing and QC on those that would really add time. This is likely done by hand, and I won't skim on the QC either (or you get a battlepod when you paid for a Super Valk). Say, 2 weeks for packing and QC? So mass production for just 5000 boxes per unit takes a month. More if more boxes.

So that's already 2.5 months gone and those are the more predictable stuff. The really chaotic portion is mold design and cutting, which have a lot of room for change and errors, and it's going to be an iterative process. The more experience you have on the team, the better it goes... but we know PB has little experience on this area, so it's not going to be fast.

The sucky part? There are 20 molds to be designed and cut, and the bottleneck is the number of people who can look at each. This is going to be the slow part, and the frickin' ocean in-between doesn't help, since you really do want to have some physical test runs to make sure everything is ok. I'm guessing each mold would take about 3 to 6 weeks to sort out depending on complexity, and while you can pipeline/ batch molds, there's a limit to that.. I'm guessing a total of 12 to 24 weeks just to get all the molds designed and cut. That's an entire quarter to half year.

So by my estimates, they are looking at.. at least 6 months of constant effort, more likely 9 months, to deliver all of the remaining items. And that's before taking into consideration that Dec, Jan and Feb are extremely bad months to get anything done, with Western hemisphere going into the Christmas break, and the Chinese preparing for Lunar New Year shortly after.

End Q2 2016 is way, way too optimistic. End 2016 for all of Wave 2 is more realistic, IMO.

There is a way to salvage the situation though, and that is to do a Wave 3. Practically, halving the deliverables to 8 units would likely cut the timeline for those 8 to 4 months optimistic, which is doable... uphill, but doable.

Cutting scope also does one important thing, which is to spread the releases out so that the customers will be reminded on a more frequent basis of the game, which is actually what is needed now. Instead of 20 units in end 2016, we get 8 in Q2 2016, probably another 8 towards end Q3 2016.. a bit of a long gap, but still workable. Will also probably help with the revenue and costs.

So taking a step back to look, having a release strategy that synergizes with the production realities would probably have gone a long way to making this entire product line much more palatable for everyone. Too bad that the word "strategy" has been pretty much missing from day 1.

EDIT: Wait. I realised I made the assumption that PB didn't do any work prior to today on Wave 2, which isn't likely the case. I believe they are working with the manufacturer on the molds... but I also believe that PB is placing no priority on this work, simply because their working style is to spread the priority all over the place in peace time anyway. They probably sorted out a few units out fully already, but it's highly unlikely they have ALL 20 units sorted out in the mold design and cutting portion.

Actually since Rick put a whole $140 into this during the KS he is at fault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ND --> Palladium --> Harmony Gold --> supporters

 Lynx7725 wrote:
There is a way to salvage the situation though, and that is to do a Wave 3. Practically, halving the deliverables to 8 units would likely cut the timeline for those 8 to 4 months optimistic, which is doable... uphill, but doable.

Actually that is no doable it would increase costs of shipping and handeling accross the board, PB has already put several hundred of thousand into shipping already (hence why they are also broke).

what they should have done and which many kickstarters who do miniature games are screwing up is to reduce the number of unique units and for rewards increase the number of the base units. and use the unique units to support the game in later releases, meanwhile if say they increased the number of the base game units for rewards we would have already had our pledges by now.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Actually since Rick put a whole $140 into this during the KS he is at fault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ND --> Palladium --> Harmony Gold --> supporters

actually it was $220 and according to Kevin i'm the mastermind behind trying to bring PB down, he has even told the government so

Asterios wrote:
Actually that is no doable it would increase costs of shipping and handeling accross the board, PB has already put several hundred of thousand into shipping already (hence why they are also broke).

what they should have done and which many kickstarters who do miniature games are screwing up is to reduce the number of unique units and for rewards increase the number of the base units. and use the unique units to support the game in later releases, meanwhile if say they increased the number of the base game units for rewards we would have already had our pledges by now.

Good point on the S&H charges. I forgot about that one. It probably can be offset by increased revenue (that's a big IF because they needed to have the release strategy in place early to draw maximum benefits), but not so likely in the current situation.

So basically it looks to be that PB is getting boxed in by their release approach and overcommitment on flashy units, many of which I didn't even bothered with. Don't disagree with your assessment on the screw up, it just makes the likelihood of Wave 2 making to any shores that much dimmer.

What I am most concerned with is the big money spent on the high volume steel molds.
Obviously large volume models do not appear to be the way to go for PB product.
So what is the cheaper method for middling volume molds?
I am sure after the "disappointing sales" PB is re-thinking how the next batch will be made.
Just the GHQ models alone show the speed PB likes: small batch sizes with low cost initial outlay on tooling.
If I were to point to fault with Ninja Division it would be recommending the steel molds that would be difficult to get return on investment.
PB is not GW or Fantasy Flight, their IP is not all that stellar so volumes just are not there, 5000 backers or not.

So let's work backwards. On a slow ship from China to US, that takes to my understanding, what, 4 to 6 weeks? More if peak period, or port strikes, or customs.

Average time for a boat out of China is 30 days on the water..with a week in customs...assuming your paperwork is in order. Times can change depending on where your boat ports...either in LA or Seattle. It's more expensive to port on the east coast..but can be done. I actually think because of the LA dock strike, one batch of containers had to be shipped that way.

Splitting the wave 2 into a third wave is absolutely doable...and the shipping costs could be reduced by buddying up with someone else's leftover container space.

If they were smart they'd make some things in plastic that we've seen set up for that kind of production Gnerls, lancers, MAC 2, etc. all look to be ready for sprue layouts. The rest of the stuff would be easier to finish as pewter or resin. Doing the zentraedi infantry as resin figs is a better way to go. These units aren't worth spending money on to develop plastic models for. The rules blow and they are easily the weakest units in the game. Most of the cards are easy and easily completed with no issues there are plenty of places they can source that from...in fact they could source that here in the U.S. and save them some time. It just depends how they are planning this thing out going forward.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Doing the zentraedi infantry as resin figs is a better way to go. These units aren't worth spending money on to develop plastic models for. The rules blow and they are easily the weakest units in the game.

Now there you go making thoughtless comments like a bull in a china shop.
I had bought four of those darn things in the backer kit so I had a full light and heavy squad, because we were shooting for being a completionist.
Silly fool that I am not knowing fully what all the units did so I could decide what was good or not... oh yeah, I had no opportunity to know that at the time, never mind knowing wave 2 would be the success it is.

Okay, I am better now... forgive and forget and all that...

 Talizvar wrote:
What I am most concerned with is the big money spent on the high volume steel molds.
Obviously large volume models do not appear to be the way to go for PB product.
So what is the cheaper method for middling volume molds?
I am sure after the "disappointing sales" PB is re-thinking how the next batch will be made.
Just the GHQ models alone show the speed PB likes: small batch sizes with low cost initial outlay on tooling.
If I were to point to fault with Ninja Division it would be recommending the steel molds that would be difficult to get return on investment.
PB is not GW or Fantasy Flight, their IP is not all that stellar so volumes just are not there, 5000 backers or not.

Agreed. I've said this from the beginning. Additionally, spending the money on tooling up plastic command tokens when thick cardstock chits (much like space hulk) would have sufficed...and been much cheaper. I don't even use mine anymore as they are too small for my tastes. I use these small tokens I got at a dollar store. The core box size was also a mistake as it adds weight and bulk to palletizing for shipping. When I first saw the box...my first reaction was: well this is unnecessarily big...LOL. The GHQ models..for what they are are nice. The detail of the Female power armor could be better..but I think that has to do with them switching the material from resin to pewter. My first Female Power Armor that I bought was resin with pewter fingers and gun bits..the next 5 I bought are all pewter. The resin one has better detail. In the case of the super valk the detail is as good as the plastics. They should have just made the other two modes for the super valk exclusive...it would have given people a serviceable unit to play with. As of now, when I use the two Super Valk con exclusives...I have to keep them in guardian mode at all times. I'm working on press molds of the arm armor and leg armor and jet packs to convert my own fighters and battloids. However, PB could have made my life easier by simply making miriya's super valk in all 3 modes. There is no way that the MOQs for the peripheral stuff is high enough to justify plastic for it all. I think if wave 2 is on the horizon...expect a mix of different materials to complete it. That's how they should have done it from the beginning. They either got bad advice...or convinced themselves that making everything in plastic was a better way to go. As it stands now...if PB wanted to..they could get models released by Jan if they wanted. They could make a cat's eye and have it be ready by years end if they had the desire. Meh.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

So let's work backwards. On a slow ship from China to US, that takes to my understanding, what, 4 to 6 weeks? More if peak period, or port strikes, or customs.

Average time for a boat out of China is 30 days on the water..with a week in customs...assuming your paperwork is in order. Times can change depending on where your boat ports...either in LA or Seattle. It's more expensive to port on the east coast..but can be done. I actually think because of the LA dock strike, one batch of containers had to be shipped that way.

Splitting the wave 2 into a third wave is absolutely doable...and the shipping costs could be reduced by buddying up with someone else's leftover container space.

If they were smart they'd make some things in plastic that we've seen set up for that kind of production Gnerls, lancers, MAC 2, etc. all look to be ready for sprue layouts. The rest of the stuff would be easier to finish as pewter or resin. Doing the zentraedi infantry as resin figs is a better way to go. These units aren't worth spending money on to develop plastic models for. The rules blow and they are easily the weakest units in the game. Most of the cards are easy and easily completed with no issues there are plenty of places they can source that from...in fact they could source that here in the U.S. and save them some time. It just depends how they are planning this thing out going forward.

oh so PB gets free shipping of product to all the backers? wow better let PB know that since they won't have to worry about S&H charges then.

all of the items in wave 2 are ready for sprue layout, PB just needs the money which they do not have, or did you forget how ND told us and everyone they sent the designs to PB for wave 2 last year? FPA's, MPA,s Super Valks and so on are the weakest units? what world do you live in again? also how does a $20 model compare to a much cheaper plastic model? then there are the resin items PB has yet to do like the bases, the SDF-1 and so forth, your just sticking your foot in your mouth some more, considering PB has yet to do any of those or even show us physical models of them as of yet.

also Zentraedi models in Resin so the Zentraedi I paid $30 for to have them done in ABS plastic will cost PB alot more then that to make them ? yeah that makes sense.

 Talizvar wrote:

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Doing the zentraedi infantry as resin figs is a better way to go. These units aren't worth spending money on to develop plastic models for. The rules blow and they are easily the weakest units in the game.

Now there you go making thoughtless comments like a bull in a china shop.
I had bought four of those darn things in the backer kit so I had a full light and heavy squad, because we were shooting for being a completionist.
Silly fool that I am not knowing fully what all the units did so I could decide what was good or not... oh yeah, I had no opportunity to know that at the time, never mind knowing wave 2 would be the success it is.

Okay, I am better now... forgive and forget and all that...

Um. Sorry? LOL. I never put much stock in the infantry in this game as it made no sense. Even Breetai, as cool as he is, is utterly pointless in the game. He can't join mecha units...he can't pilot mecha..he's basically an upgrade to an infantry squad...and is a command point battery in your games. It's a cool model and I bought it anyways...knowing he'd spend more time in my display case than actually being used. Now, if PB decided to update the zentraedi infantry rules to be better...that would help. Their fire power is great if you can get them within 12" of a target..but they can't boost their speed like other units can...which is dumb. Why did they make infantry unable to run...is beyond me. I think that was a massive oversight IMHO and if those unit were play tested properly..it would have become very apparent. The infantry should have had a special run rule..where by spending a command point or whatever you could double their base speed of 5 for a turn. That small change would make them worth fielding as objective grabbers. Also their gun could have used an 18" range. Playing them on a 4x6 table is a waste as they'll never reach a target unless the UEDF player actually moves into their range...which is unlikely. On a 4x4 table they are serviceable..but are still slow as hell.

that reminds me just ordered a couple of zentraedi infantry to see how they came out.

Additional spending on plastic tokens? IIRC we unlocked those, didn't we with our pledges. Now I realize that it was probably a fake baked in stretch goal like the faction dice (that I pointed out to Ninja Division were IN THE INTRO VIDEO FROM THE BEGINNING!) but IIRC we specifically unlocked stuff like that. If they set it up as a stretch goal, sorry but no take backs. That additional "spending" was covered by us, not them.

 warboss wrote:
Additional spending on plastic tokens? IIRC we unlocked those, didn't we with our pledges. Now I realize that it was probably a fake baked in stretch goal like the faction dice (that I pointed out to Ninja Division were IN THE INTRO VIDEO FROM THE BEGINNING!) but IIRC we specifically unlocked stuff like that. If they set it up as a stretch goal, sorry but no take backs. That additional "spending" was covered by us, not them.

don't forget our dual colored blast marker we paid for and never got.

oh so PB gets free shipping of product to all the backers? wow better let PB know that since they won't have to worry about S&H charges then.

Shipping cost from China can be reduced by purchasing extra container space/ unused container space from other companies when it comes time to build containers. My company does it all the time for wal-mart orders.

all of the items in wave 2 are ready for sprue layout, PB just needs the money which they do not have, or did you forget how ND told us and everyone they sent the designs to PB for wave 2 last year?

The last real update (which was back in Feb I think, showed exploded views of a Gnerl and Lancer. To me, that kind of progress indicates that they were close to completing sprue layouts for those two models. I recall that they had some issues with the Lancer.

FPA's, MPA,s Super Valks and so on are the weakest units? what world do you live in again?

Reread what I wrote. I said the infantry units are the weakest units in the game. FPA if used right are some of the most powerful models in the game. They can cross the table in one turn and light up anyone with ease. They got a slight nerf as the new blast rules nerfed their grenade launcher a bit. The MPA is an okay unit but is slow compared to FPA and suffers from a combination of having really good short range guns...but can't reach their targets as fast as FPA. Overall, I give the MPA a B- for a unit. You'll get more mileage out of using pods...as both have 18" guns. Now if you can get MPA close..then they can rip stuff up. Getting there is the challenge though in a game that's primarily focused on missiles. In that case, the revised missile rules actually help them somewhat. Super Valks are great...maybe a little too good. The infantry? It's terrible...and should have always been relegated to be done in resin or pewter. It's such a low volume unit...that spending the money for plastic on those doesn't make sense.

also how does a $20 model compare to a much cheaper plastic model?

All these units are low volume units...in other words, you aren't going to buy many of them. To save, time money, etc. PB should have made it clear that these units were not going to be in plastic. Look at how fast they cranked out the Exclusives. They basically have two box sets of MPA and FPA if they'd package them that way. Sure they are mono posed but if they added another couple of sets of arms/ legs..they had those units done. Since they committed to plastic...these are going to be in plastic. It's probably too late to go back unless they decide to and announce it. I don't know what they were thinking.

then there are the resin items PB has yet to do like the bases, the SDF-1 and so forth, your just sticking your foot in your mouth some more, considering PB has yet to do any of those or even show us physical models of them as of yet.

These could have either A): Been done right away..as they are low hanging fruit..or B): they've been relegated to the end of the line because they aren't critical components to the game itself. I use my Adepticon Poker chips for my objective markers. My guess is that they've chosen B. Is that the right call to make? Probably, not. If PB chose to get these out first, I think many backers would have been satisfied with getting something while they wait for their meat and potato units from wave 2. The resin SDF-1 and objective markers could have been done in the U.S.

also Zentraedi models in Resin so the Zentraedi I paid $30 for to have them done in ABS plastic will cost PB alot more then that to make them ? yeah that makes sense.

To get your money back on plastic models the MOQs have to be high enough to justify the cost. How many zentraedi infantry units do you think people will buy compared to Battle pods? That's why Pods should be in plastic (which they are) and the infantry needs to be in a cheaper material at lower volumes...which resin provides. The infantry rules is certainly not going to help them move those box sets..that's for sure. Retail wise, the prices they'd sell them at would probably be the same as I'm sure they'd want to maintain the same margins.

In the grand scheme of things, if they had come out with just wave 1 on time and still had that mistake, I'd have looked the other way without comment as you still have a completely functional ancillary product. It's a miniscule mistake compared with the Vader-esque changes that Palladium has wrought since on purpose like screwing over the idea of exclusives, backers getting product first, getting everything in one go, losing the skirmish rules, and more recently taking the special character sculpts and turning them into just 1 special mode for the veritechs instead of the 3 they agreed to do. There are dozens of bigger fish to fry than that mistake. I could possibly agree if they didn't make it in plastic at all like we unlocked.. but missing a highlight color? Nah.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

oh so PB gets free shipping of product to all the backers? wow better let PB know that since they won't have to worry about S&H charges then.

Shipping cost from China can be reduced by purchasing extra container space from other companies when it comes time to build containers. My company does it all the time for wal-mart orders.

you still seem to keep glossing over the cost of shipping from PB to the backers, nobody said anything about the cost to ship from china, just the cost to ship to the backers.

all of the items in wave 2 are ready for sprue layout, PB just needs the money which they do not have, or did you forget how ND told us and everyone they sent the designs to PB for wave 2 last year?

The last real update (which was back in Feb I think, showed exploded views of a Gnerl and Lancer. To me, that kind of progress indicates that they were close to completing sprue layouts for those two models. I recall that they had some issues with the Lancer.

and a note from ND said PB had all of the designs last year.

FPA's, MPA,s Super Valks and so on are the weakest units? what world do you live in again?

Reread what I wrote. I said the infantry units are the weakest units in the game. FPA if used right are some of the most powerful models in the game. They can cross the table in one turn and light up anyone with ease. They got a slight nerf as the new blast rules nerfed their grenade launcher a bit. The MPA is an okay unit but is slow compared to FPA and suffers from a combination of having really good short range guns...but can't reach their targets as fast as FPA. Overall, I give the MPA a B- for a unit. You'll get more mileage out of using pods...as both have 18" guns. Now if you can get MPA close..then they can rip stuff up. Getting there is the challenge though in a game that's primarily focused on missiles. In that case, the revised missile rules actually help them somewhat. Super Valks are great...maybe a little too good. The infantry? It's terrible...and should have always been relegated to be done in resin or pewter. It's such a low volume unit...that spending the money for plastic on those doesn't make sense.

and you said probably some of the most ordered items should have been done in pewter and/or resin not counting the items that came in each BC and above, that would have cost PB an arm and a leg more then they have to pay now.

also how does a $20 model compare to a much cheaper plastic model?

All these units are low volume units...in other words, you aren't going to buy many of them. To save, time money, etc. PB should have made it clear that these units were not going to be in plastic. Look at how fast they cranked out the Exclusives. They basically have two box sets of MPA and FPA if they'd package them that way. Sure they are mono posed but if they added another couple of sets of arms/ legs..they had those units done. Since they committed to plastic...these are going to be in plastic. It's probably too late to go back unless they decide to and announce it. I don't know what they were thinking.

and those same units are all in the BC and above so yeah they have to make a crud load of them, minimum 15K of each MPA and FPA

then there are the resin items PB has yet to do like the bases, the SDF-1 and so forth, your just sticking your foot in your mouth some more, considering PB has yet to do any of those or even show us physical models of them as of yet.

These could have either A Been done right away..as they are low hanging fruit..or B they've been relegated to the end of the line because they aren't critical components to the game itself. My guess is that they've chosen B. Is that the right call to make? Probably, not. If PB chose to get these out first, I think many backers would have been satisfied with getting something while they wait for their meat and potato units from wave 2. The resin SDF-1 and objective markers could have been done in the U.S.

and instead PB is making units they don't owe the backers and can just outright sell, yeah smart planning there.

also Zentraedi models in Resin so the Zentraedi I paid $30 for to have them done in ABS plastic will cost PB alot more then that to make them ? yeah that makes sense.

To get your money back on plastic models the MOQs have to be high enough to justify the cost. How many zentraedi infantry units do you think people will buy compared to Battle pods? That's why Pods should be in plastic (which they are) and the infantry needs to be in a cheaper material at lower volumes...which resin provides. Retail wise the prices they'd sell them at would probably be the same as I'm sure they'd want to maintain the same margins.

I bought me some Zentraedi Infantry. just because you did not buy any does not mean no one else bought any, i didn't buy any Gnerls other then what came with my BC.

you still seem to keep glossing over the cost of shipping from PB to the backers, nobody said anything about the cost to ship from china, just the cost to ship to the backers.

I haven't glossed over that. Those shipping costs for them is the cost of doing business. If they were smart they would have charged some sort of flat rate for s&H costs during the KS...they didn't. Now they are on the hook for shipping. That's their mistake and it has the potential to cost them.

and you said probably some of the most ordered items should have been done in pewter and/or resin not counting the items that came in each BC and above, that would have cost PB an arm and a leg more then they have to pay now.

The low volume units should be in resin or pewter. If the MPA and FPA had a higher volume ordered...then it makes sense to put them to plastic. However, PB sort of said F it...and fundamentally made them into pewter units anyways. Completely backwards, I know. If they wanted they could churn out the GHQ models and count them as wave 2 if they wanted...but they aren't going to do that. So in a way they spent money on the creation of those units twice.

and instead PB is making units they don't owe the backers and can just outright sell, yeah smart planning there.

If it generates revenue why not? It's not like PB should pause any easy releases they can make while wave 2 is being completed. The convention exclusives obviously had no effect on the status of wave 2. I think PB should just drop the exclusive status of those models..and sell them permanently to the general public..and offer them to the backers to fulfill their pledge for those units if the backers chose to...or at least give them to the backers at no cost to the backers as a way of saying: we're sorry. They owe backers at least that much.

I bought me some Zentraedi Infantry. just because you did not buy any does not mean no one else bought any, i didn't buy any Gnerls other then what came with my BC.

I know many people that bought the infantry. Cool. All I'm saying is that once people play with the infantry they'll be disappointed. My critique is not of the people that bought them..but of PB and their badly tested infantry rules for this game. Time to eat some pizza...

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
you still seem to keep glossing over the cost of shipping from PB to the backers, nobody said anything about the cost to ship from china, just the cost to ship to the backers.

I haven't glossed over that. Those shipping costs for them is the cost of doing business. If they were smart they would have charged some sort of flat rate for s&H costs during the KS...they didn't. Now they are on the hook for shipping. That's their mistake and it has the potential to cost them.

actually PB did charge RoW backers shipping costs and thats gonna cost PB big time so like the original statement said splitting wave 2 into 2 or more waves is not only doable for PB but ludicrous in thinking PB will spend more then they have to.

and you said probably some of the most ordered items should have been done in pewter and/or resin not counting the items that came in each BC and above, that would have cost PB an arm and a leg more then they have to pay now.

The low volume units should be in resin or pewter. If the MPA and FPA had a higher volume ordered...then it makes sense to put them to plastic. However, PB sort of said F it...and fundamentally made them into pewter units anyways. Completely backwards, I know. If they wanted they could churn out the GHQ models and count them as wave 2 if they wanted...but they aren't going to do that. So in a way they spent money on the creation of those units twice.

and most likely the low ordered units are the ones that PB said will be made in pewter, as it goes we have backers who bought nothing or very little if anything in wave 1 and bought exclusively wave 2 items. got one backer who spent hundreds and all he got was a decal sheet so far, and then there are the ones who bought the painted set who haven't gotten it yet.

and instead PB is making units they don't owe the backers and can just outright sell, yeah smart planning there.

If it generates revenue why not? It's not like PB should pause any easy releases they can make while wave 2 is being completed. The convention exclusives obviously had no effect on the status of wave 2. I think PB should just drop the exclusive status of those models..and sell them permanently to the general public..and offer them to the backers to fulfill their pledge for those units if the backers chose to...or at least give them to the backers at no cost to the backers as a way of saying: we're sorry. They owe backers at least that much.

seriously you say you know how PB operates and you think they are going to give the backers anything for free? too funny. also they have pretty much made the convention exclusives available to the open market already.

I bought me some Zentraedi Infantry. just because you did not buy any does not mean no one else bought any, i didn't buy any Gnerls other then what came with my BC.

I know many people that bought the infantry. Cool. All I'm saying is that once people play with the infantry they'll be disappointed. My critique is not of the people that bought them..but of PB and their badly tested infantry rules for this game.

and we have yet to see PB's version of the infantry stats, remember all the rules are not in the book, the special rules and such are on the cards. which PB has not released as of yet.

ND made the boxes big because PB wanted backers to put all of their rewards in the one box.

PB is still responsible for the project, and should have had a PM from the get-go. Trusting ND is one thing, but just how incompetent is PB if what you say is true?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
ND made the boxes big because PB wanted backers to put all of their rewards in the one box.

PB is still responsible for the project, and should have had a PM from the get-go. Trusting ND is one thing, but just how incompetent is PB if what you say is true?

Where did they say that? (about the box).

I agree that palladium is overall responsible for EVERYTHING since their name is at the top and they cashed the giant $1.4 million check (minus fees plus backerkit). If they didn't properly oversee their partner or investigate them in the first place, that is also on them.

The box is huge, and it's the only rational reason for it to be so big.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The box is huge, and it's the only rational reason for it to be so big.

Given the history of this particular project, the simplest reason would be that someone screwed up or didn't consider the actual volume of the contents. I thought maybe there was some snippet of ND insider info on the project that I missed but it appears you were guessing. No big deal either way.

 warboss wrote:
...snip...and more recently taking the special character sculpts and turning them into just 1 special mode for the veritechs instead of the 3 they agreed to do.

I'm hoping that was only done for the "exclusives" and not the rewards outlined in the kickstarter. Changing it to just one mode would outright be fraud based on what was promised during the campaign.

darkminstrel wrote:

 warboss wrote:
...snip...and more recently taking the special character sculpts and turning them into just 1 special mode for the veritechs instead of the 3 they agreed to do.

I'm hoping that was only done for the "exclusives" and not the rewards outlined in the kickstarter. Changing it to just one mode would outright be fraud based on what was promised during the campaign.

Just to be clear... the "special" sculpt will be one mode only but the other two modes will still be included. They'll just be generic valkryie sprues instead. What I'm talking about at the Rick Hunters and Roy Fokkers.

Guys, all the miniatures are fully completed, packed and ready to ship, the current delay is Kevin writing the update that announces it.