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Asterios wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

but according to fanfriends of PB there are only a dozen of us who want refunds? so why not refund us since so few, or is there?

Your estimates on how many fan friends there are are just as bad as their estimates on how many want refunds now.....melodramatic much?

never said how many fan friends they have now did I ?

Well you did use purals...

 Lynx7725 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

but according to fanfriends of PB there are only a dozen of us who want refunds? so why not refund us since so few, or is there?

Your estimates on how many fan friends there are are just as bad as their estimates on how many want refunds now.....melodramatic much?

never said how many fan friends they have now did I ?

Well you did use purals...

well I thought they had more then 2.

Thank you Morgan.
Aside from kickstarter issues and 100 piece models what is the consensus on the system?
Is it fun, crap somewhere in the middle?

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Thank you Morgan.
Aside from kickstarter issues and 100 piece models what is the consensus on the system?
Is it fun, crap somewhere in the middle?

That is a matter you will have to determine on your own. However, my opinion is the rules are decent, it is fun, for me, and feels relatively balanced. It has it's issues, but not as broke as a GW game, faster than Battletech, and simpler to learn than both. Not as easy to learn as an Attack Wing game, and also not quite as intuitive.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Thank you Morgan.
Aside from kickstarter issues and 100 piece models what is the consensus on the system?
Is it fun, crap somewhere in the middle?

That is a matter you will have to determine on your own. However, my opinion is the rules are decent, it is fun, for me, and feels relatively balanced. It has it's issues, but not as broke as a GW game, faster than Battletech, and simpler to learn than both. Not as easy to learn as an Attack Wing game, and also not quite as intuitive.

Pretty much what Calvin said. It doesn't look horrible, but there are some overly unnecessary rules (I'm looking at you, Close Combat Rules). And it does run into a very particular wall, much like Battletech does. That being that the record keeping is complicated enough that it'll limit the ease of doing significantly large battles, but is simple enough that I think running skirmish level wouldn't give the detail needed. On the latter, at least, Mike is working on a skirmish set, that may solve that issue. And to be fair, for the size of game RRT recommends (15-30 models a side), it looks like they hit the sweet spot.

For the most part, though, it's one of the few aspects of the game that isn't greatly disliked. I'll see if I can find a copy of the rules from the KS page (the link on the page is 404-ing), though that might take a day or two. Unless someone beats me to it. It's not complete, but it'll give you a general idea of what to expect.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Thank you Morgan.
Aside from kickstarter issues and 100 piece models what is the consensus on the system?
Is it fun, crap somewhere in the middle?

That is a matter you will have to determine on your own. However, my opinion is the rules are decent, it is fun, for me, and feels relatively balanced. It has it's issues, but not as broke as a GW game, faster than Battletech, and simpler to learn than both. Not as easy to learn as an Attack Wing game, and also not quite as intuitive.

Pretty much what Calvin said. It doesn't look horrible, but there are some overly unnecessary rules (I'm looking at you, Close Combat Rules). And it does run into a very particular wall, much like Battletech does. That being that the record keeping is complicated enough that it'll limit the ease of doing significantly large battles, but is simple enough that I think running skirmish level wouldn't give the detail needed. On the latter, at least, Mike is working on a skirmish set, that may solve that issue. And to be fair, for the size of game RRT recommends (15-30 models a side), it looks like they hit the sweet spot.

For the most part, though, it's one of the few aspects of the game that isn't greatly disliked. I'll see if I can find a copy of the rules from the KS page (the link on the page is 404-ing), though that might take a day or two. Unless someone beats me to it. It's not complete, but it'll give you a general idea of what to expect.

Well with Skirmish I combined Kick and Punch into attack and Power Punch and Power Kick into Power Attack. So I dropped 4 different HTH attack and replaced them with 2 different ones. Honestly I've seen very little HTH in games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the record, compared to most other things I really enjoy the rules.

Well just saw Homer Simpson reading a book I'm wondering if Kevin read called crowdfunding the new panhandling.

Rules wise, the basic 'engine' works. Makes sense. But many specific details add up to really drive the playability of the game down, and act as bad game design choices.

Examples:
Missiles are so far superior to other weapons, that the best move is to fire missiles as often as possible until you run out. Missiles one-shot enemies, guns don't. Also, everything has missiles en-masse, which are also very hard to stop. So the first turn is both sides missile destroying about half of the other, repeated for two or three more turns until the leftovers clean up.

Close Combat is idiotic, and the number of 'moves' is irrelevant. You just walk around jump-kicking until targets are dead when melee is involved. Battle Pods are a billion times more effective kicking repeatedly than using their actual weapons.

Blast Missiles are stupidly powerful and Indirect Fire has literally no downside.

There's a lot of redundant rules, IE Antimissile and dodge stepping on each other's toes.

Heroes are largely pointless. They're marginally OK and generally just die to missiles.

'Build your own character' rules don't even remotely work. A hero you make isn't much better than a normal unit, yet costs like 4-5 times as much.

Valkyries, the stars of the show, have bad ordinance options you generally don't take... as well as the fact that Guardian/gerwalk mode is by far the best due to being most flexible, best firepower AND most flexible.

Just these issues make the game not really interesting compared to alternatives unless you are in it just for the IP...

Killionaire, your last point applies to every Palladium product.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm guessing their current plan is release at gencon, before sending anything to backers, and sell as much as they can before all the bad reviews, with some kind of new and improved rulebook.

Part of the question is how the game should play. If you watch the anime, missiles are the stuff - however, they should be one-shot in the game.

I don't recall a lot of CC in the anime, so having lots of options and units being better at CC than shooting is probably a bad idea.

Also, not clear why Heroes couldn't have literal Plot Armor / Heroic Luck

There was that scene where Rick in a Spartan slapped the rear end of a renegade Zentraedi, who promptly fell down. Probably out of shame...

Did the zentradi happen to have white hair and a moustache?

 Killionaire wrote:
Rules wise, the basic 'engine' works. Makes sense. But many specific details add up to really drive the playability of the game down, and act as bad game design choices.

Examples:
Missiles are so far superior to other weapons, that the best move is to fire missiles as often as possible until you run out. Missiles one-shot enemies, guns don't. Also, everything has missiles en-masse, which are also very hard to stop. So the first turn is both sides missile destroying about half of the other, repeated for two or three more turns until the leftovers clean up.

Close Combat is idiotic, and the number of 'moves' is irrelevant. You just walk around jump-kicking until targets are dead when melee is involved. Battle Pods are a billion times more effective kicking repeatedly than using their actual weapons.

Blast Missiles are stupidly powerful and Indirect Fire has literally no downside.

There's a lot of redundant rules, IE Antimissile and dodge stepping on each other's toes.

Heroes are largely pointless. They're marginally OK and generally just die to missiles.

'Build your own character' rules don't even remotely work. A hero you make isn't much better than a normal unit, yet costs like 4-5 times as much.

Valkyries, the stars of the show, have bad ordinance options you generally don't take... as well as the fact that Guardian/gerwalk mode is by far the best due to being most flexible, best firepower AND most flexible.

Just these issues make the game not really interesting compared to alternatives unless you are in it just for the IP...

Agreed on many points.

Missiles...they are powerful and that reflects the cartoon. I've found the GU-11 OTOH vicious at times. Missiles can be shot down. Direct Fire weapons must be dodged. Missiles are an all or nothing. If they get shot down they are a waste. I see them as the most dependent on good and bad dice rolls. A partial change is to let things that have Rapid Fire spend additional command points to improve the AM roll.

RAW
Normal Weapons - Cost 1 Command Point and need a 6.
Anti-Missile - No cost and need a 5+
Missiles with Anti-Missile need a 4+

My version
+1 per Rapid Fire use.

For example the VF is often seen blasting away to shoot down missiles. It can also Rapid Fire twice in Battloid. So you can pay one command point and need a 6....you can pay two command points, rapid firing once, and need a 5+ because you get a +1 bonus to the die....OR you can pay 3 Command Points and need a 4+ since you get a +2 bonus. This makes sense and explains the blasting away like crazy with the GU-11 vs just using the head lasers on the VT.

Example 2 is the FPA. They have mini-missiles with Anti-Missile and need a 4+ to shot down missiles. The min-missile launchers also have Rapid Fire. The player could pay one command point, fire and expend 2 ammo and need a 3+ since they get a +1 bonus for rapid firing.

I just felt this better reflected the actual cartoon but it also is something you will only want to try with key units.


Close Combat has all the same attacks as the RPG, but most you will rarely use, if at all.

Blast Missiles have been fixed with the last FAQ that they should have done over a year ago. I had been asking since week 1 after I received my pledge.

Heroes, the optional rule above fixes that for the most part.

Character rules are stupid, I re-wrote those and shared my version months before things went to print.

Valks have good options. Want missile protection, use mini-missiles. Want firepower and range, mediums or Long. The GU-11 is vicious if you can get some VT's in Battloid into some heavy cover they will prove themselves. The +1 GN in Battloid also makes each shot that much harder to dodge!

Has anyone filed litigation yet? If not, why not? It needs to happen. I think we can all admit were never getting ehat we paid for, and of we do, were probably sticking it in a bin and never using it anyway. At least via litigation we can get our pound of flesh, best case scenario is that some other company picks up the license and pulls a Cryptozooic and finishes wave 2 for us (if you dont know what I mean study up on the Doom that Came to Atlantic City fiasco).

Nobody will pick up the license of an older anime that's owned by HG. That is why Palladium was able to renew it. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy up this game. Who would want to inherit all these headaches, angry customers, legal threats, unfulfilled obligations, etc.?
What happened with Doom was different since the game's creators took it back and found another way to publish it.

Anybody that thinks this will be saved by a non-Palladium company is fooling themselves. Only Palladium will be able to complete this project.

The only chance of someone taking over RRT and moving on with it is with the new Robotech movie and people who do that are going to Michael Bay it all and it will not be anything like what we remember.

 n815e wrote:
Nobody will pick up the license of an older anime that's owned by HG. That is why Palladium was able to renew it. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy up this game. Who would want to inherit all these headaches, angry customers, legal threats, unfulfilled obligations, etc.?
What happened with Doom was different since the game's creators took it back and found another way to publish it.

Anybody that thinks this will be saved by a non-Palladium company is fooling themselves. Only Palladium will be able to complete this project.

I agree with almost everything you said. Especially the last bit, about PB being the only ones to complete this project.

That does not mean that another company can't make the game moderately successful though, following a rebirth. It'd be an uphill battle, but with significant work and substantial investment on their part, I believe it's possible, especially if they go out of their way to make sure that they distance themselves completely from KevCo, not just publicly, but privately as well. It'd need to be a clean break, and they'd have to be almost flawless moving forward. That's where Kevin's plans for a reboot are going to run into issues. Any reboot Kevin manages is going to be seen through the lens of the stuff that happened before. And I doubt many people are going to give them any latitude.

But back to the topic discussed, this'll do nothing for existing backers. Those people would be hosed. There's no way that a DTCTAC style saving will happen. Simply put, there's just too much money involved. Even if the W2 molds were complete, and production had been paid for (unlikely), you're probably looking at least one to two hundred thousand dollars of straight up lost income. Having to do the work from the point that we've seen from PB (and their assurances aside, I don't expect it to be much more than what they've shown), it could be upwards of half a million to complete it as it stands. That's too big an initial hole to start in. They MIGHT offer discounted product to people owed product, as a marketing/goodwill ploy, but it'd still be production costs + labor costs + actual shipping at the very least. And for a number of backers, throwing more money at the project for stuff already "owed" isn't going to go over well.

TLDR - Another company COULD save "the game", but not the "campaign". Backers will get nothing unless PB do it.

 n815e wrote:

Anybody that thinks this will be saved by a non-Palladium company is fooling themselves. Only Palladium will be able to complete this project.

"Complete" is relative, really. I think Palladium will deliver Wave 2 in some format at some point. But RRT as a game or system? My opinion is "effectively dead, do not resuscitate".

It'd take a whole eco-system reboot and management to get the tabletop gaming line going again, and would need a total product strategy that's not apparently in place at the moment. Palladium did not demonstrate sufficient skillset in this area, and seems particularly disinterested in learning, so odds are not very good.

If they deliver on their obligations, the project is complete.
Then, at the very worst, we have a Macross game. At best they will continue to produce further eras and provide at least a decent amount of support for it.

I also don't think the game is "dead".
That's simply too subjective of a statement.

actually i put it at about PB needing $700-800 thousand more dollars to finish wave 2, between molds, production and delivery.

they are not done with molds, if they were we would have samples, they are not done with production, (see molds), and according to Kevin wave 1 delivery was like $150-200K.

so for those of you who think PB will pull this off and deliver wave 2 your dreaming, no way PB can get that kind of money.

A game's 'lifespan' is dictated by a lot of things, we've seen games that were officially no longer supported by their creators that had resurgences with considerable public player community support.

But for a niche of a niche of a niche game like this, it takes more than "product exists" to breathe life into it. PB themselves admit they're lacking general support (as noted with the comments about hoping for wave 2 mid 2016 and using that as a relaunch of the line along with organized play support). They have an almost effortless way to expand things with conventional figures but have spent, what, a third of a year sitting on that after Mike and co handed it to them on a silver platter? They produced an FAQ that hasn't seen an update since mid February (aside from the Blast rule change).

I guess we'll see how things go. Presumably there'll be another steep discount sale at CSI and other sites around Black Friday; whether that's just part of them enticing people, or clearing out stock that isn't moving, only time will tell.

 n815e wrote:
Nobody will pick up the license of an older anime that's owned by HG. That is why Palladium was able to renew it. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy up this game. Who would want to inherit all these headaches, angry customers, legal threats, unfulfilled obligations, etc.?
What happened with Doom was different since the game's creators took it back and found another way to publish it.

Anybody that thinks this will be saved by a non-Palladium company is fooling themselves. Only Palladium will be able to complete this project.

Only PB could or would complete RRT, it based on their RPG rule set, a non-starter right there for anyone who has played their system.

Any other company would restart from the ground up, both the models and rules. Any other company would also understand the contact they signed and if they could even do a stand alone miniature game instead ln the first place. Instead of already starting a project to find out the can't and needing to tie it in to their RPG.

Yeah, only PB would bother with finishing RRT.

@Forar well I have noticed an increase of large game lots for sale on eBay.

The support that has been provided by PB for the game has done more to damage my interest in the game than anything else. I have never seen a more bungled and confused FAQ, and the convoluted, totally insane brick of text that is the new blast ruling was the last nail in the coffin for my hope that this game was going anywhere.

The lack of support was at least just that, and it is far better than being a blathering fool.

Noir wrote:


Only PB could or would complete RRT, it based on their RPG rule set, a non-starter right there for anyone who has played their system.

You miss the point. Only PB could complete this project because nobody else will touch it. Whether or not you like (or have even tried) the rules is irrelevant.

Any other company would restart from the ground up, both the models and rules.

It's simply a non-starter for any other company.

 n815e wrote:

Noir wrote:


Only PB could or would complete RRT, it based on their RPG rule set, a non-starter right there for anyone who has played their system.

You miss the point. Only PB could complete this project because nobody else will touch it. Whether or not you like (or have even tried) the rules is irrelevant.

Don't you mean.... PHB?

@Ketara: Hehehe!

From what (little) I've read about Harmony Gold, they're not easy to work with or managed the license well, either. Plenty of dislike for HG.

http://kotaku.com/5990702/why-you-havent-seen-any-new-macross-in-the-west-for-nearly-15-years

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1381502542/robotech-academy/comments

n815e is correct, Robotech instantly became toxic the moment WRRD helped Palladium get the rights.
After we we're fooled this time into believing Ninja Division would be doing the heavy lifting, who'd believe Robotech would ever be Palladium free now?
Not that Palladium care, they were only concerned with loosing the piddling amount of income they get from Robotech RPG sales.

Joyboozer wrote:
n815e is correct, Robotech instantly became toxic the moment WRRD helped Palladium get the rights.
After we we're fooled this time into believing Ninja Division would be doing the heavy lifting, who'd believe Robotech would ever be Palladium free now?
Not that Palladium care, they were only concerned with loosing the piddling amount of income they get from Robotech RPG sales.

A few fallacies here that we can clean up.

First, Palladium already had the rights to the RPG, and RRT was made under that license. Hence the Robotech RPG Tactics part, and WRRD only presented the idea of how they could apply those rights....a minis game, RRT.

Second, I think Palladium fooled themselves by being stupid and making the assumption that ND would do a lot more than they did. Simply put PB did not read the contract and assumed too much.

Third, Palladium, already had the rights, nobody else could have made RRT no matter who wanted to. WRRD had to go to Palladium, there was simply no other options.

Fourth, as how PB has treated this, I'm just as annoyed as anyone else.

There were plans by at least two other parties im aware of who were planning on approaching HG for the license to produce a miniature wargame on its renewal, unfortunately they made the mistake of actually doing all the groundwork first.
I'm not disagreeing with you mike, but I do know had palladium not been given the go ahead, we would have ended up with a much more competently delivered game actually aimed at tabletop gamers, no RPG elements.