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I'm most curious about the court case that Asterios/Rick dug up. If Palladium is suing someone (or whatever the case is.. being sued, testifying in a criminal case.. whatever.. I'm not sure what a docket showing their name actually means), that might be relevant to Robotech. After following this massively delayed project for two and a half years, it's obvious that everything at Palladium is very closely interconnected. A delay in one project happens likely because something else has taken priority; their murmurs read like they're constantly rushing to try and contain one fire while another 2-3 start to burn out of control. If the case is directly related to Robotech and the failure to complete their contract despite 2 extra years, it obviously has an effect on the project as well. Even if it is completely unrelated (like with a crisis of treachery part II), Palladium doesn't seemingly know how to multitask and those 25 hour work days and 8 day work weeks will likely be devoted to putting out that fire instead of completing the myriad of other massively delayed projects, the biggest (but certainly not the only) being Robotech.

It would be interesting if it was like a Dust Studio/Battlefront fallout in that ND hasn't gotten paid for the renders they did "a year ago" and are now on PB's case. It'd be damn hilarious even.

 Stormonu wrote:
It would be interesting if it was like a Dust Studio/Battlefront fallout in that ND hasn't gotten paid for the renders they did "a year ago" and are now on PB's case. It'd be damn hilarious even.

Would be interesting, but that is not the case. ND took their pay and left trying not to look back at the mess they made and that PB through a total lack of oversight, was initially unaware of.

 Mike1975 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
It would be interesting if it was like a Dust Studio/Battlefront fallout in that ND hasn't gotten paid for the renders they did "a year ago" and are now on PB's case. It'd be damn hilarious even.

Would be interesting, but that is not the case. ND took their pay and left trying not to look back at the mess they made and that PB through a total lack of oversight, was initially unaware of.

Why exactly did they go with Ninja Division? I'm guessing price, they were a new company at the time, no real reputation to base the choice on.

My info is that ND did their job, then PB demanded changes. For example, ordering a rewrite of the rules, and requirements on the plastic molds.

ND's other games for example, have zero commonality with the Robotech project. Their models actually are made of sane numbers of pieces, and their rules are better.

It's like fan-friends keep blaming ND but you know what's the common factor in all of PBs failures? PB.
Meanwhile, ND actually manages to put out KSs roughly on time and with decent miniatures.

Stormonu wrote:It would be interesting if it was like a Dust Studio/Battlefront fallout in that ND hasn't gotten paid for the renders they did "a year ago" and are now on PB's case. It'd be damn hilarious even.

I was just thinking the other day that this project needed more Paolo. It would have been even more of a train wreck, but the diva-off between Paolo and Kevin would be one for the ages.

Sining wrote:It's like fan-friends keep blaming ND but you know what's the common factor in all of PBs failures? PB.
Meanwhile, ND actually manages to put out KSs roughly on time and with decent miniatures.

For certain definitions of "on time" and certain definitions of "decent". Relic Knights was not without problems. Though once they stopped working with other companies for publishing, their quality and consistency has improved. Either they were unlucky in their partnerships, or they have learned some tough lessons.

Are we back to calling people names if we disagree with them?

Just because PB are inept doesn't make ND any less so.

Except that ND seem to be showing evidence of the one thing PB absolutely cannot.

They seem to be learning from their mistakes.

That requires evidence that ND are inept.

We have several other ND/Soda Pop campaigns that don't (as far as I'm aware) show the same "mini-model" approach to design.

We have ND's statements that they completed the figures and handed them to PB over a year ago.

Now, is it possible ND shoulder some of the blame here? Certainly. A lot of it? Maybe.

However, I think it's much more likely, based on PB's statements in The Big History Of Everything posts, that they failed to capture pertinent details in the contract (made naive assumptions or just flat out didn't do their homework getting into the venture) and eventually ND completed their contractually obligated aspects of work, whether or not it got PB to the finish line, because we're talking about businesses, not charities.

I have a friend whose sister works for a visual FX company that works on some big name movies and shows (example; she worked on Age of Ultron). One of their big clients was Game of Thrones (she worked on that too), however they eventually had to drop the contract because they simply couldn't keep up with the demands being made by the production team; they'd complete a scene and then get a pile of revision notes and have to go back over again and again and again. What I'm saying is that it's possible for revision demands to exceed what is a sound business strategy. If ND were contracted for X revisions or Y hours of work across those figures, then it's not unreasonable for them to finally say "look, we did what you paid us to do".

Without seeing the contract we have no way of knowing, but I think putting a hefty share of the blame on ND requires giving PB a level of benefit of the doubt that simply doesn't make sense to me.

So, again, is it possible that ND are demons who led the innocent PB astray? ... eh. I think it's much more likely that after months of changes (included or above and beyond the contract), ND simply wrapped up their contractual obligations and finished their end of the project. If PB was unable or unwilling to submit appropriate change orders to modify those duties, that's not ND's fault. That's a reasonable stance in business.

If PB wanted ND to do *everything*, then they should have captured that in the contract.

Also, according to The Grand History Of Everything, it was WRRD who suggested Ninja Division.

First, I want to thank Thomas Roache for his persistence and passion that opened my eyes to the possibilities. Honestly, I don’t know if Robotech® RPG Tactics™ would exist if it were not for Tom and his efforts to rally an online movement for Palladium to even consider something like this. It was also Tom who first suggested Palladium talk to Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division about working with us to make the game pieces and it was Ninja Division, Tom and Carmen Bellaire who helped convince us that doing a new game would be the way to go with this project.

And regarding the project itself;

First, not knowing anything about Kickstarters, we did not realize the real job of managing a Kickstarter begins AFTER the Kickstarter is funded. We thought that when Ninja Division said it would handle the Kickstarter from start to finish, that they would be handling everything. Again, we didn’t know what “everything” entailed.

No. Bad PB. You don't get to assume things in business. You get it all, EVERYTHING, explicitly written down. Everyone is on the same page, everyone knows who is being paid what to do what work, and what penalties may come into play if that work isn't completed to PB's satisfaction (or in a timely fashion). Hell, if it's as egregious as some people make out, PB should be taking ND to court.

People generally agree that PB needed a quality Product Manager to run this, but the ongoing "oh man, those ND donkey caves left PB high and dry" style commentary that I see now and then just baffles me. Given the number of people PB has thrown under the bus over the years, the excuses and misleading statements (if not outright lies), it just doesn't make sense to me to conclude that ND are somehow the focal point for blame.

Again again, I'm not saying they're saints, but with a project like this the buck stops with the guys in charge. And in this case, that's PB. Even if the contractor fethed up something fierce, that's on said guys in charge to manage.

 n815e wrote:
Are we back to calling people names if we disagree with them?

Just because PB are inept doesn't make ND any less so.

Not sure what namecalling you're seeing. Unless it was the "diva-off" thing Caulyn mentioned. I think the reputations of both people he mentioned having strong egos that kind of fit that mold aren't that out of line. Did I miss something else?

As for ND being equally as inept as PB, I'll accept it's a possibility. I just won't accept it as fact, without some serious evidence. Simply put, we don't know what happened. One side isn't talking. The other side isn't known for being trustworthy. Trying to say that ND and PB are equally responsible, or according to Mike, more responsible, for the issues with this campaign, require some form of proof before I'll accept it as fact.

The facts in evidence are...
- ND was hired to work on the project.
- ND no longer feel they are attached to this project.

And that seems to be about it. ND claim that they finished with the work about a year ago. PB haven't confirmed or denied this, to my knowledge. The argument about what was expected and/or required of both parties is mostly rumor and speculation, with apparently some "insider information" from PB (I don't doubt people were told this. I question whether the person telling them this was being completely honest). The actual contract hasn't been made public, nor have both sides confirmed anything with regards the details within.

Really, what some people seem to be going on, is current and past experience. Ninja Division while having some issues with Relic Knights, seem to be working at a pace, and with a quality that isn't seen in the RRT project. Whereas PB seem to be repeating the same mistakes, over and over again. Sure, it's not proof, but it's a reasonable line of logic based on circumstantial evidence.

I mean it's possible ND blew up their side of the project to work on their own stuff. It's also possible they did everything in their capacity to do their job and were hamstrung/sandbagged by Kevin's meddling. We simply don't have enough actual fact to know what happened, and stating either side as such, without some kind of validation, is wrong.

what it comes down to is the white knights are trying to put most if not all the blame on ND, they already have come to the realization that wave 2 is never gonna show up (at least anytime soon in the next few years).

so they have to find someone to blame and we all know how Kevin is faultless, they try to put the blame on HG, but from what i've seen of other companies putting out Robotech stuff they don't have to go thru all the hoops, they do have to be exact, I remember a conversation I had with a friend Jason and I had asked him about Lisa's hair in the Sentinels, he said he had to do it that way. but on the other hand it seems like all of PB's choices were aimed to save them money, no evil plans from ND or HG, just PB and Kevin behind this screw up.

PB only hired ND till they got the money, then Kevin in his infinite wisdom figured how could he screw that up? and with us knowing his track record we know how.

When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.

ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.

ND ran the KS. Mike's point of ND setting the goals, being responsible for the quotes, making the promises seems more true than not. If the project's budget was effectively set by ND and then handed off to PB to make the best of it, that really screwed us over.

ND and PB were effectively partners in this, it wasn't just a contractor relationship which is why we have their logo on our boxes. They may have been smart enough to keep their mouths shut and put distance between this mess that they helped cause, but that doesn't change the part they played. They really are smart to distance themselves and keep quiet, because they know that means fewer people will associate them directly with the problems of the project. They didn't mind when they thought it was going to make them look good, though.

Good for them for learning from their mistakes, that doesn't do a single thing for us.

This doesn't do anything to fix things for us, but when I see all of the blame set on PB, none attributed to HG and people letting ND off scot-free, I think that is inherently unfair. PB is the bearer of the greatest burden, but let's be fair.

Even if ND is 98% responsible for the INITIAL problems with the fulfillment of the kickstarter, Palladium has had 2 YEARS to correct those mistakes either themselves or hire someone to do so. They apparently haven't. Palladium is also completely responsible for the VOLUNTARY breaking of promises like convention exclusives and not trying to sell at retail before fulfilling backer rewards. Palladium is also completely responsible for the complete failure to complete other promises made with side projects like the conventional rules and the wave 2 standees that ND had nothing to do with. And then there is the mess that Palladium calls communication with backers. How is ND responsible for months of silence after repromising to keep backers informed? ND didn't say months ago that they were going to FINALLY give us the much delayed breakdown of each sprue that they were supposed to do from the beginning and then do nothing but post vague throwaway sentances ON ANOTHER SITE about this project instead.

TLDR: Even if you assign 98% of the initial screw up blame to ND, there have been so many screwups in the two years since that Palladium is up to their waists in blame themselves no matter what. So many of the same type of mistakes have been made since that it makes it almost impossible that they were somehow completely on the ball prior to that.

 n815e wrote:
When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.

ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.

That is still debatable, especially when you look at their other minis, none of them are done like the UEDF, odds are PB had the factory split up the pieces to make it cheaper to do.

ND ran the KS. Mike's point of ND setting the goals, being responsible for the quotes, making the promises seems more true than not. If the project's budget was effectively set by ND and then handed off to PB to make the best of it, that really screwed us over.

ND and PB were effectively partners in this, it wasn't just a contractor relationship which is why we have their logo on our boxes. They may have been smart enough to keep their mouths shut and put distance between this mess that they helped cause, but that doesn't change the part they played. They really are smart to distance themselves and keep quiet, because they know that means fewer people will associate them directly with the problems of the project. They didn't mind when they thought it was going to make them look good, though.

Actually ND were not partners, they even have stated on several occasions they were "Hired" to design the minis (this does not include breaking the minis into several pieces), and to design the initial ruleset, think it was the rules but PB changed them.

Good for them for learning from their mistakes, that doesn't do a single thing for us.

This doesn't do anything to fix things for us, but when I see all of the blame set on PB, none attributed to HG and people letting ND off scot-free, I think that is inherently unfair. PB is the bearer of the greatest burden, but let's be fair.

so far as evidence shows, what can you prove ND did to screw this project up, you already said some things but I also pointed out evidence that discredits what you said.

BRING ON THE LEGAL TSUNAMI!!!

 n815e wrote:
When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.

ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.

Partial fact. ND designed the miniatures. That's not in dispute. The second part, I'd need more evidence to accept. There has been speculation that there were changes made to make things cheaper. That the initial production company was changed (hence the file incompatibility issue). It's possible that the miniatures initially provided by ND were horrible. It's also possible that the initial miniatures were made horrible by micromanagement from HG and PB. So there's a wide range of what "might have happened", but nothing that proves where the blame should be.

 n815e wrote:
ND ran the KS. Mike's point of ND setting the goals, being responsible for the quotes, making the promises seems more true than not. If the project's budget was effectively set by ND and then handed off to PB to make the best of it, that really screwed us over.

Again, first part, ND running the communication on the KS appears to be fact. The rest? Speculation. We don't know who decided the stretch goals, how the budget was worked out, what was promised (like the Super VEF, and the multi Toma/Def), and who had input. It's possible ND did all of it on their own, as you suggest. It's possible (though I admit unlikely), that PB handed them a playsheet that they had to run through. It's also possible that ND did their side, and PB rubberstamped it, either trusting, not knowing or caring what was being done. Or anywhere else on that spectrum.

 n815e wrote:
ND and PB were effectively partners in this, it wasn't just a contractor relationship which is why we have their logo on our boxes. They may have been smart enough to keep their mouths shut and put distance between this mess that they helped cause, but that doesn't change the part they played. They really are smart to distance themselves and keep quiet, because they know that means fewer people will associate them directly with the problems of the project. They didn't mind when they thought it was going to make them look good, though.

Not fact. That their logo is on the box doesn't make them "partners". While I can't prove the negative (that they were not partners), that there IS a distance between them, that ND do not appear to be in any way tied to the project anymore, appears to be significant enough that it looks a lot more like work for hire than a partnership. Just because they initially seemed to be working in concert, doesn't make them partners. Much as me having a good relationship with my employer doesn't make me their partner. Again, not saying they were NOT partners. Just saying that unless we see the contract and what obligations/responsibilities were, claiming either as fact is wrong.

 n815e wrote:
Good for them for learning from their mistakes, that doesn't do a single thing for us.

This doesn't do anything to fix things for us, but when I see all of the blame set on PB, none attributed to HG and people letting ND off scot-free, I think that is inherently unfair. PB is the bearer of the greatest burden, but let's be fair.

The HG thing is just an acceptance, I think. I don't think anyone expected HG to do anything but collect royalties. But as Warboss mentioned in response, the last year, if not longer, is solely on PB. And we just don't know enough to know who's to blame earlier. Some people have a feeling, but noone seems to have proof. And for what it's worth, for a long time, people DID lump PB and ND into the same basket. It was only when it was clear that ND had (bailed out/been forced out/quit/run away/divested themselves/concluded their part), that people started directing it solely at the people currently responsible for the issue.

 Alpharius wrote:
BRING ON THE LEGAL TSUNAMI!!!

If you squint enough, you can almost make out Asterios riding the wave of fury on a 3D printed surf board in the shape of the SDF-1! Unleash the full force of your litigation fury and get us at least a pyrrhic moral victory! In all seriousness, Rick, I expect nothing to come from 2 years worth of legal threats (including Rick actually filing anything that we can verify online) but maybe if you keep your promises we'll find out the truth about what happened and what is NOT happening currently (whether from you or Palladium directly).

 warboss wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
BRING ON THE LEGAL TSUNAMI!!!

If you squint enough, you can almost make out Asterios riding the wave of fury on a 3D printed surf board in the shape of the SDF-1! Unleash the full force of your litigation fury and get us at least a pyrrhic moral victory! In all seriousness, Rick, I expect nothing to come from 2 years worth of legal threats (including Rick actually filing anything that we can verify online) but maybe if you keep your promises we'll find out the truth about what happened and what is NOT happening currently (whether from you or Palladium directly).

surfs up Big Kahuna

 n815e wrote:
ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.

Edit: Merijeek's commentary that ND don't even seem to be the ones making the sprue breakdowns is stronger. The renders we saw seem fine, how the factory (and other plastic minis companies have complained about factory sprue breakdowns in the past) is cutting them apart is another story. PB have referenced working with the factory on this aspect, going as far as saying that the original renders are just being used as the basis for this work or something.

ND ran the KS. Mike's point of ND setting the goals, being responsible for the quotes, making the promises seems more true than not. If the project's budget was effectively set by ND and then handed off to PB to make the best of it, that really screwed us over.

Given that PB has complained that the molds and shipping (to the warehouse) were considerably more expensive than allocated for, this is possible. Maybe the people setting up the budget failed to allocate enough extra to cover contingencies like this. That'd be bad, that'd be unfortunate, and with 2 waves of shipping that'd be a substantial problem, but PB has pointedly not admitted to having any issues with proceeding for a quarter of a decade now. Aside form vague murmurings about trimming the piece count and bitching about costs being higher than originally anticipated, they've been quite clear about not being broke or taking the money and running, etc. If these increased costs are indeed holding them back, then we're at another "they're lying about making progress" impasse.

ND and PB were effectively partners in this, it wasn't just a contractor relationship which is why we have their logo on our boxes.

Having ones logo on a box doesn't make one a partner. Everything in the communications from PB and ND have shown a clear HG/PB -> ND flow of directives. PB regularly commented on sending ND's work to HG for approval. PB took the rules set and reworked it. Everything I've seen leans towards ND having the least power/authority/whatever in this mess.

This doesn't do anything to fix things for us, but when I see all of the blame set on PB, none attributed to HG and people letting ND off scot-free, I think that is inherently unfair. PB is the bearer of the greatest burden, but let's be fair.

Which basically makes all this splitting hairs. Whether it's a 90/10 split on blame for PB and ND, or 80/20, I think we can all agree PB are the ones that have fethed up royally here. Arguing whether ND shares 10 or 20 or 30 percent of the blame still leaves PB the ones garnering the most ire. The ones flippantly taking months and quarters of years to show nothing, who have shown almost zero progress in the last year and a half since wave 1 went from design to production.

 n815e wrote:
When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.

ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.

Nope. The major quality problem wasn't down to the designs, it was down to the way they were cut for production.

What on earth makes pb fans think ND is a partner? Are they receiving a share of the profits? No? Are they allowed to make any of the decisions without input from PB? No? Sounds more like a employer employee relationship -_-.

what it comes down to is ND finished their part of the project a year ago, so how can you blame whats been happening this past year on ND? how can PB be working on the miniature designs when ND is out of the picture? I did not sign up for some random company designing the minis, when I signed up PB said ND would be designing them.

 Forar wrote:

This assumes that ND designed them like that on their own. Given their other figures, I don't see why that would have to be the case. Given that PB and/or HG had input as to what was expected of them, it seems more likely to me that this was what they were told to do.

Actually, without a doubt, absolutely positively we know that ND didn't just do the sculpts on their own since Palladium told us. I can't give you a url specifically but somewhere (whether an official KS update or a weekly murmur) it was said that they'd get a design from ND and the palladium staff would spend lots of time scrutinizing it and sending it back for corrections to make sure it was 98% accurate to the source material. I'm not totally sure but IIRC they also said they were the middle step before passing it along next to HG for approval (and more possible changes).

edit: And now I read further down and you pretty much said the above in your own post. Oops, sorry!

so which base would look better for the BETAs ? plus some Alphas on the 40mm "
regular" base.

Beta Fighter Mode:

40mm base:



or

50mm base:



Beta Battloid Mode:

40mm Base:



or

50mm base:



and some Alpha models on 40mm bases:

Off hand, aren't Betas roughly the size of original VT's? Broader but roughly the same height at least?

Maybe go 40mm for the Alpha and Beta, and 50 for the combined mode ("Legioss" or whatever it's called)?

Maybe even 30mm for the Alpha, given its smaller size? They'd be about comparable to Zentraedi Infantry, wouldn't they? So 25 or 30mm would make sense, if I'm not forgetting something important here.

 Forar wrote:
Off hand, aren't Betas roughly the size of original VT's? Broader but roughly the same height at least?

Maybe go 40mm for the Alpha and Beta, and 50 for the combined mode ("Legioss" or whatever it's called)?

Maybe even 30mm for the Alpha, given its smaller size? They'd be about comparable to Zentraedi Infantry, wouldn't they? So 25 or 30mm would make sense, if I'm not forgetting something important here.

well the Alphas are on 40mm bases in the pics and the Betas are on 40mm and 50mm bases respectively.

the combined mode would need at minimum a 60mm to cover most of the unit.

this is what a Zentraedi would look like on a 25mm base:



and on a 40mm base:

Wow, so in that massive update Kevin spewed forth he even threw WRRD under the bus?
Classy.
Does anyone else picture him as either Terrance or Phillip from South Park?

I don't see actually that as throwing WRRD under the bus personally but rather just details/backstory filling in the Gospel as Reimagined by Kevin to the Fan Friendalites. Regardless, Palladium is the company that vetted and chose to enter into a contract with Ninja Division, not a fan boy with NO experience in the industry like Roach just dropping a name of a company who happens to focus on anime minis.

Sining wrote:
What on earth makes pb fans think ND is a partner? Are they receiving a share of the profits? No? Are they allowed to make any of the decisions without input from PB? No? Sounds more like a employer employee relationship -_-.

I'm not a PB fan. It just goes to show how much there are those who cannot handle someone who disagrees with them that they have to discount others' opinions as "PB fans" or "White Knights" or "Fan Friends".

Do you know what the financial arrangement is between ND, PB and HG? You don't actually know if ND gets a share of the profits. Does PB make any decisions about the game without input from HG? According to your logic, then, PB is the employer of HG.

If there was simply a contractor-employer relationship, why is ND's logo on the boxes alongside PB's and HG's. I don't have my personal logo alongside my employer's.

The plastic manufacturer's logo isn't on the boxes, either. Neither is PB's printer's. Or the surface shipping company's. Or USPS'...
It's rather unusual for a contractor to have their logo featured on a product.


We all have differences of opinions and in the absence of solid information we will never completely know.
Yet there are those who, for whatever reason, feel the need to excuse ND as though they had no part in this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Merijeek wrote:

 n815e wrote:
When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.

ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.

Nope. The major quality problem wasn't down to the designs, it was down to the way they were cut for production.

So all the people that have complained about soft or missing details, that have complained about fragile parts, that have complained about lack of poseability, that's all down to the way they were cut for production. Got it.